Should SSBB be less technical then SSBM?

[Zenjamin]

Some people perfer advanced techs to be taken out of the game and I can name a few reasons why.

1) They believe that they "if" their opponent wasn't able to manipulate the game, then they could not be beaten.

2) They believe they should not have to work much or as long as they do to get as good at the game as some of their friends or the "Pro-Smashers".

3) They want to compete in tournaments and be well known, but do not want to put the time and effort into climbing the mountain to get to the top.

gnaaaa!

where then hell are you getting this?

not true...
at all...
not even close.

read my above post or Chromeless'
post

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Umm... How? I mean, obviously one is a little tougher, but how is pressing L during a certain number of frames before an event (something hitting you) different than pressing L during a certain number of frames before an event (you landing after an aerial)?

Everything that your opponent does has to be predicted or expected in order for you to be ready to wall tech. There's an element of surprise that makes this more dynamic.

However with L-canceling you will always know when you are going to land. There's nothing unpredictable about that.

Would baseball be fun if you knew the pitch was going to go down the middle every time? Or would it be more fun if you were never quite sure what pitch was going to come? The one with that element of surprise is clearly much more difficult and will in the long run be much more enjoyable to apply during the game.

Baseball has that element of surprise. Wall teching is like playing baseball. L-cancelling is like the homerun derby. Sure the homerun derby is fun the first year or two you watch it when you're a kid, but it gets boring. It's all flash. There's no real depth to the game of homerun derby.

 

[Ophelius]

Well, if someone wants to be famous, they have to work for it. Which is why noone knows me. I haven't went to many tourneys.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Everything that your opponent does has to be predicted or expected in order for you to be ready to wall tech. There's an element of surprise that makes this more dynamic.

However with L-canceling you will always know when you are going to land. There's nothing unpredictable about that.

Would baseball be fun if you knew the pitch was going to go down the middle every time? Or would it be more fun if you were never quite sure what pitch was going to come? The one with that element of surprise is clearly much more difficult and will in the long run be much more enjoyable to apply during the game.

lmao. People don't LCANCEL to mindgame their opponents, or to... confuse themselves.. They LCANCEL so that... their own offense is more threatening and faster.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

lmao. People don't LCANCEL to mindgame their opponents, or to... confuse themselves.. They LCANCEL so that... their own offense is more threatening and faster.

First off laughing at me? Go back to middle school.

Second you stated something everyone here already knows. Of course I know that, but you seem to think that laying your **** on the table and because if it's bigger than than person next to you, then you should have some kind of advantage.

That's called homerun derby. I don't want to play homerun derby. I want to play baseball.

 

[Sensai]

We do acknowledge that have a great value, that’s why we want it to not imbalance the system.
We do not want them taken out, or even changed; we just want them to be easier to learn.
ex. The timeframes for which you can l-canceling increased.

Alright. I knew I didn't cover all of the reasons people wanted tech's made different, I was just giving the big two in the thread. I was unaware that there actually WAS someone who felt that they were hard. Apologies.

If smash is better then all those other fighting games because the mechanics are simple doesn’t that support sticking to the core philosophy of smash?

It means simplicity is bliss. But in saying that, it's not the equivalent of saying Pong is as good as Final Fantasy VII. Simple up until a point, but then it just becomes boring.

This is the mentality that I really want to address.
Why? Why would it "heavily screw up the tournament scene"?

I hold that it would improve the tournament scene,
...
there will be more of a focus on mind games, reaction time, anticipation, ect...

Do you really believe techs will let the scrubs beat you?
Can anyone with tech skill beat ken?

It would mess up the tournament scene by narrowing the gap between the button mashers and the elite.

Without WDing, the entire match lengthens significantly and becomes a roll-fest. This doesn't hold true to all characters, but can you imagine a Fox without WDing?

No, tech's won't allow the scrubs to beat me. But the LACK of tech's might allow the scrub to get lucky, thus being able to beat me. And yes, if you took out L-Cancelling, WDing, and DDing, then I'm sure someone could beat Ken.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Wow fellows, easy on the sexual analogies. I wasn't laughing at you, that is crude, and i'm sorry if you took offense. rather, i thought it amusing that you mention that landing and thus L-canceling, is predictable. Well, if guess if you know how to time it, it is predictable Of course everyone knows that. But it is unreasonable to think that lcanceling should be unpredictable. lcanceling wasn't put in so we can laugh hard every time we do it. I hope that this is clear enough? It seems like what you're trying to say that lcanceling isn't a mindgame, or that it is no fun to do because there is no chance involved. For me, lcanceling doesn't HAVE to be a mindgame because it serves other purposes, and that i'm glad there is no chance whether I'm going to reduce the lag. I've practiced a lil bit to make it so ^.^ Before I learned of advanced techniques in december last year... smash was just kinda a game i played for fun with friends. *whispers* I used to play free-for-all! */whisper* When I saw Wound of the Wind, i wanted to know how they did that. So i learned. And i had fun while learning, because it was my direct input that determined the results. I think it was Hydro Kirby who related this to capitalism, and I applaud him for such insightful observation. I too was thinking among these lines.

So it wasn't too hard to learn these things, but i sure as heck don't MIND working up to possess my kind of ability. It was kinda like "leveling up" for me. And i wouldn't play a game where I start out at lvl 99.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

It means simplicity is bliss. But in saying that, it's not the equivalent of saying Pong is as good as Final Fantasy VII. Simple up until a point, but then it just becomes boring.

See I have to disagree, pong never becomes complex, the deeper into it you look. Simplicity in basic concepts is good and ways to apply them is, but it should be versatile enough where the options and different situations can become somewhat complicated (conceptually, not technically). It should be harder to know whether to push button A or B when you are under pressure, not to make it really hard to push button A or B.

It would mess up the tournament scene by narrowing the gap between the button mashers and the elite.

Without WDing, the entire match lengthens significantly and becomes a roll-fest. This doesn't hold true to all characters, but can you imagine a Fox without WDing?

No, tech's won't allow the scrubs to beat me. But the LACK of tech's might allow the scrub to get lucky, thus being able to beat me. And yes, if you took out L-Cancelling, WDing, and DDing, then I'm sure someone could beat Ken.

See you are thinking that the game is based on whether or not there is a difference between the tech skill of the scrub and the pro. But the fact is that the game is much different at the pro level. Your total number of options increase. In this game you have 4 buttons to push. You have buttons A, B, C, and D. Buttons A and B are easy to push. Buttons C and D are hard to push.

That is how things are at the tournament level. We simply want to say. We like that more buttons were added, but it's silly to make buttons C and D hard to push.

I didn't explain this exactly as I intended, but you get the idea.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Wow fellows, easy on the sexual analogies. I wasn't laughing at you, that is crude, and i'm sorry if you took offense. rather, i thought it amusing that you mention that landing and thus L-canceling, is predictable. Well, if guess if you know how to time it, it is predictable Of course everyone knows that. But it is unreasonable to think that lcanceling should be unpredictable. lcanceling wasn't put in so we can laugh hard every time we do it. I hope that this is clear enough? It seems like what you're trying to say that lcanceling isn't a mindgame, or that it is no fun to do because there is no chance involved. For me, lcanceling doesn't HAVE to be a mindgame because it serves other purposes, and that i'm glad there is no chance whether I'm going to reduce the lag. I've practiced a lil bit to make it so ^.^ Before I learned of advanced techniques in december last year... smash was just kinda a game i played for fun with friends. *whispers* I used to play free-for-all! */whisper* When I saw Wound of the Wind, i wanted to know how they did that. So i learned. And i had fun while learning, because it was my direct input that determined the results. I think it was Hydro Kirby who related this to capitalism, and I applaud him for such insightful observation. I too was thinking among these lines.

So it wasn't too hard to learn these things, but i sure as heck don't MIND working up to possess my kind of ability. It was kinda like "leveling up" for me. And i wouldn't play a game where I start out at lvl 99.

Okay. I'm sorry I misunderstood you when I thought you were laughing at me.

However you did give me an amazing idea for a game.

It would combine the random elements of chance that you get in poker with Super Smash Brothers.

Each move has an extra element called the F*** up factor. This can cause you to do a completely different move. So instead of performing a fair, you might air dodge off the ledge to your death. I think it would be pretty **** funny. Kinda like playing Katamari, ya know the game where you roll a ball and pick things up.

Edit: I forgot to respond to the rest of your post.

Okay so basically you are kind of getting what I mean. There is an element of the unknown, when you wall tech that is affected by what your opponent does. It's not random, it's controlled by your opponent. I'm saying that l-cancelling doesn't contain this element and neither does making wavedashing complicated in that you have to jump and air dodge into the ground.

I'm simply questioning the relavance of this type of technicality. Maybe because it is hard, that slows down the progression of how much people improve, giving you more of a feeling of competitive Smash being a journey. I just think that you can have all the same things without adding in unnecessary technicalities to a game.

 

[Miharu]

If you make the controls so simple that any noob can learn them, then the game really will be broken. Not everyone is able to perform drillshine infinites, and that's the beauty of it, so not everyone is limited to one character to use. People, in effect, are forced to seek out other character choices to cover their weakness. I relate this to football; not everyone can be the quarterback, since that calls for a very specific set of skills and a very sharp mind, but there are other positions for people to play. You can broaden the example to cover all sports: basketball isn't right for everyone, so there are other sports to satisfy your needs. The analogy is far from perfect, but I feel that it gives a good idea of how or why people choose the less tech-heavy characters over the more tech-reliant ones.

I've said countless times that there is a difference between the technical skill required to perform powershielding and the technical skill required to perform l-cancelling. Hydro Kirby is the only one who begins to address whether or not that difference is arbitrary and so far he's the only one who has begun to convince me otherwise.

Actually, it's harder to perform powersheilding than it is to perform L-cancelling. L-cancelling has a reasonable time frame to perform it in (around 1-20 frames, I believe), but for powershielding, you pretty much have to get it down to 2-3 frames, or maybe even just one. Both are relatively easy to practice, but powersheilding just requires better natural reflexes. I do find it a bit ironic that you're in favor of keeping the insanely hard techs as they are (powersheilding, Smash DI, ledgeteching), but you advocate for the simplification of performing the raw basics of advanced techs.

This is the mentality that I really want to address.
Why? Why would it "heavily screw up the tournament scene"?

I hold that it would improve the tournament scene,
As stated before, once it becomes clear that techs are just another tool then there will be more of a focus on mind games, reaction time, anticipation, ect...

Do you really believe techs will let the scrubs beat you?
Can anyone with tech skill beat ken?

It won't screw up the tournament scene, because there won't BE a tournament scene. One of the basic requirements of a tournament level fighting game is a certain required amount of techincal proficiency, whether you like it or not. There's a difference between everyone having easy access to advance techs, and everyone being able to learn the techs. If the advanced techs were to all gain their own button, anybody, and I mean anybody will be able to pull off the infinites, wavelanding, and etc. with less practice and more ease than before. This completely imbalances the game, since when you look at the tier list today, the only reason that Sheik, Marth, Peach, and another handful of characters are still competetive is due to the fact that the inhuman perfection that the game is theoretically capable of producing will never be reached by a human.

On another note, wavedashing probably won't get its own button because in a way, it already does have it's own button, and wavelanding would be really weird to pull off. Which button would you use: the wavedashing button or L/R?

Creative Destruction? If I knew what you meant, I'd know whether to laugh or ponder the thought for hours.

That was an econ thing referring to how capitalistic society will cause its own demise. Completely unrelated to this, dunno why I said that XD

Anyway that's a mute point. I'll move onto another game that I feel is very close to being perfect by design. Poker. There's really just a couple basic concepts. Bluffing, pot odds, and raising to knock out people with poor hands. However, all of these concepts combine together and make one hell of a game that never gets dull, maybe it's the random chance element that makes this game unique and have lasting power.

However, poker wasn't invented by some company to generate profit. And you can't really compare it to SSBM, since poker has no requirement of technical skill, and has a substantial luck factor compared to SSBM. SSBM is more techincally dependent, but the luck factor is almost nonexistant, except in random stage selection and bracket luck.

My point is I feel that the development of fighting games are being held back by an overcomplication of technicality. Hey maybe I'm wrong on this one. I haven't played the super-technical fighting games to see the difference. I just think that a fighting game that isn't technical can still have all the lasting power of a super-technical one AND at the same time appeal to a far greater number of people.

That's the big advantage to making a game less technical. It will be more universally popular. If you make it good enough and dynamic enough it won't matter that it lacks that artificial technicality that gives the game depth. And the artificial technicality won't turn off so many people from enjoying something so great.

But the opposite will happen. "Advanced" gamers will be turned off by the fact that this game takes such little work to master, and when the depth is gone, the upper tier community slowly fades. That's the mindset that kept, and still is keeping, SSBM out of Evolution, a massive gaming tourney that includes 4 fighting games, I believe, and also Mario Kart DS. Each of which is very technical when compared to the technicalities of SSBM. You seriously have to play the other fighting games to understand what I'm saying; the ridiculous amount of memorization and reflexes needed to play SCII turned me away from that game.

But the one thing I love about SSBM is that if you don't think about which buttons you're pressing, you can't win. Button mashing gets one completely assraped in SSBM, but in other more standardized fighting games, you can do the odd super/combo here and there, and get in some lucky hits. But in SSBM, button mashing usually leads you to up b off the stage.

 

[Chromeless]

Actually, it's harder to perform powersheilding than it is to perform L-cancelling. L-cancelling has a reasonable time frame to perform it in (around 1-20 frames, I believe), but for powershielding, you pretty much have to get it down to 2-3 frames, or maybe even just one. Both are relatively easy to practice, but powersheilding just requires better natural reflexes. I do find it a bit ironic that you're in favor of keeping the insanely hard techs as they are (powersheilding, Smash DI, ledgeteching), but you advocate for the simplification of performing the raw basics of advanced techs.

Given this statement, I'm not quite sure you really understand where we are comming from. We are all for powershielding because it adds to the dynamics of the game without being harder to control then necessary. It is however, necessary to make the technique itself difficult to time, as you said it just requires better natural reflexes, which I have absolutely no problem with, because the technique needs to be difficult to time in order for it to work well within the game.

Wavedashing however has no need for such a requirement, making it difficult to do adds nothing to the move itself, it adds no dynamics to the game, instead it requires the player to repeat a premeditated motion, that is what I am against. I am against having the players preform set button commands in a match when it would be better, both for the sake of the player and the quality of the game's dynamics themselves, for the player to be able to react at will, hence being able to manipulate the game to their advantage in a far mroe intuitive way.

Now, you can argue that this would reduce the compedetive nature of the game, but as long as the game is well designed you'd be hard pressed to see a button masher achieve any more then they can now. If anything, it would push the top players to achieve an even higher level of reaction and mindgames then is currently possible, which is somehtign I'd very much like to see.

If Evo won't accept Smash because it is less technical, then I feel that says alot more about Evo then it does about the quality of Smash Brothers. All it shows is that the Evo community, which currently consists mostly of people with similar opinions to yourself, place a high priority on the technicality of a fighter. There is nothing wrong with this in itself, but I can assure you that there is nothing wrong with less technical fighting systems apart from the fact that some people prefer more technical games.

I simply feel that Smash is better off doing its own thing, completely ignoring the technicality standard of other games in favor of emergent depth through game dynamics. You can disagree with my personal opinion, but Smash remains the only fighting game which is sucessful on both a commercial and qualitative level that can really fill the non-technical role. There does not yet exist any other tournament worthy game that fills or could fill that role, Smash is currently the only real candidate for it.

In other words, I believe that Smash needs to be less technical because there is no other fighting game that will. There needs to be a game that plays the part as well as a great thespian would and Smash is it.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

If you make the controls so simple that any noob can learn them, then the game really will be broken. Not everyone is able to perform drillshine infinites, and that's the beauty of it, so not everyone is limited to one character to use. People, in effect, are forced to seek out other character choices to cover their weakness. I relate this to football; not everyone can be the quarterback, since that calls for a very specific set of skills and a very sharp mind, but there are other positions for people to play. You can broaden the example to cover all sports: basketball isn't right for everyone, so there are other sports to satisfy your needs. The analogy is far from perfect, but I feel that it gives a good idea of how or why people choose the less tech-heavy characters over the more tech-reliant ones.

I think that analogy is a perfectly good one, I can see what you mean. Though I guess if we had those advanced techs. I'd like to see a greater amount of balance between characters and a greater variance of what types of techs you need to do between the characters. Like how Peach has float cancelling, Samus has bomb jumping etc... Everyone relies heavily on l-cancelling. Why not make some characters have more unique styles, technically speaking I guess, then maybe I'd feel like it would be more interesting to explore the technical part of the game if each character had something different. I think it's cool how only Peach can float, and how only Samus can bomb jump and super wavedash. So I guess maybe it wouldn't be so bad in that sense.

Actually, it's harder to perform powersheilding than it is to perform L-cancelling. L-cancelling has a reasonable time frame to perform it in (around 1-20 frames, I believe), but for powershielding, you pretty much have to get it down to 2-3 frames, or maybe even just one. Both are relatively easy to practice, but powersheilding just requires better natural reflexes. I do find it a bit ironic that you're in favor of keeping the insanely hard techs as they are (powersheilding, Smash DI, ledgeteching), but you advocate for the simplification of performing the raw basics of advanced techs.

I support powershielding, because success is directly influenced by your opponent, but l-cancelling is not. I mentioned that earlier. That's my boner about l-canceling. There's an element of unpredictability of when your opponent is going to shoot that projectile at you. Therefore the technical skill of making it really hard to do as well as really beneficial, goes hand in hand. I however can see why people think l-cancelling would be the same in that sense, that it is very beneficial to eliminate your lagg, however it gets to a point when it becomes necessary and I feel the focus of the game shifts away from the mind games as a result.

I support Smash DI, because you have to know what move your opponent is going to do, in order to perform it. If it was really easy to do Smash DI, then no matter how much your opponent completely faked you out, you will always be able to live, because you used Smash DI. No that's a terrible game. In this case the technical skill adds to the depth of the game, BECAUSE it is doing something in response to your opponent within a certain time frame. If you can see the move coming, you'll be able to DI properly, if you have no clue what hit you, you'll go flying to your death.

This is when I feel technical skill is good and absolutely necessary. L-cancelling and making feats unaffected by your opponent adds less to the game.

It won't screw up the tournament scene, because there won't BE a tournament scene. One of the basic requirements of a tournament level fighting game is a certain required amount of techincal proficiency, whether you like it or not. There's a difference between everyone having easy access to advance techs, and everyone being able to learn the techs. If the advanced techs were to all gain their own button, anybody, and I mean anybody will be able to pull off the infinites, wavelanding, and etc. with less practice and more ease than before. This completely imbalances the game, since when you look at the tier list today, the only reason that Sheik, Marth, Peach, and another handful of characters are still competetive is due to the fact that the inhuman perfection that the game is theoretically capable of producing will never be reached by a human.

Maybe you are right. Maybe people wouldn't want to play a fighting game that takes little technical skill. But if the game has any depth, it will definitely still involve skill, just maybe not the same amount technical skill that the other fighting games have.

On another note, wavedashing probably won't get its own button because in a way, it already does have it's own button, and wavelanding would be really weird to pull off. Which button would you use: the wavedashing button or L/R?

Okay here's an example I guess off the top of my head.

The way it would work is the button would simultaneously jump (if you were on the ground) and airdodge downward. You would simply hold right or left to add a horizontal movement to it. You could also hold down and right, to cut the distance for which the wavedash moved.

That was an econ thing referring to how capitalistic society will cause its own demise. Completely unrelated to this, dunno why I said that XD

ZOMG I'm still confused!

However, poker wasn't invented by some company to generate profit. And you can't really compare it to SSBM, since poker has no requirement of technical skill, and has a substantial luck factor compared to SSBM. SSBM is more techincally dependent, but the luck factor is almost nonexistant, except in random stage selection and bracket luck.

I was trying to show an example that would compare SSBM to other completely different game to show the dynamics that are involved between two or more players. I wanted to show that SSBM only requires technical skill when it is necessary to add to the dynamics between the two players/ There are times when technical skill only affects you like l-cancelling.

But the opposite will happen. "Advanced" gamers will be turned off by the fact that this game takes such little work to master, and when the depth is gone, the upper tier community slowly fades. That's the mindset that kept, and still is keeping, SSBM out of Evolution, a massive gaming tourney that includes 4 fighting games, I believe, and also Mario Kart DS. Each of which is very technical when compared to the technicalities of SSBM. You seriously have to play the other fighting games to understand what I'm saying; the ridiculous amount of memorization and reflexes needed to play SCII turned me away from that game.

Then advanced gamers need to stop being elitest and see the fact that a simple game can be wonderfully complex all the same. I've shown that chess and poker are wonderfully complex, yet so simple at the same time. Fighting games I know can be the same if they are made correctly.

But the one thing I love about SSBM is that if you don't think about which buttons you're pressing, you can't win. Button mashing gets one completely assraped in SSBM, but in other more standardized fighting games, you can do the odd super/combo here and there, and get in some lucky hits. But in SSBM, button mashing usually leads you to up b off the stage.

Yes that is why SSBM is so good, not because of the technical skill required to l-cancel and wavedash. If you want to add more technical skill to the game it should be done in the way powershielding, Smash DI, wall teching, ledge teching, and all the other things in the game that you need to combine the aspect of timing and anticipation in order to be successful. This type of technical skill is great. I wouldn't mind if more of these types of techs were added.

I'll point out some more things I think are good for the dynamics of Smash...

Grapple cancelling is definitely something that adds to the dynamics, because it involves timing in response to your opponent. However I wouldn't mind if they buffed it a little bit, or found a way to make it more versatile to use. Maybe if they made the grapple come out quicker or if you could aim the bombs like you can a boomerang to travel more to your left or right. You could set up bombs, so you can more easily dodge and grapple cancel should your opponent attempt one move or another.

Umm lemme see, I can't think of any other moves off the top of my head.

 

[Zenjamin]

wait, are there three groups here?

are people really suggesting that techs be taken out of the game?
thats just stupid.


listen to myself and Chromeless,
techs are tools to use skill, the skill used to put techs into proper aplication will never become simple.
the more accessible these tools become, the more people that have these tools, the more complex the game will become. the more face paced it will become.






p.s. does nintendo read these boards? are we here in hopes of giving imput into the game, or are we here because we are fans?

 

[Miharu]

My argument is that with wavedashing, like most other things in this world, with enough practice, it just becomes second nature. It becomes an alternative form of movement, and yet, dashing and other standard methods of movement are still integral to every single character's game.

The main breaking point in the argument is that we don't agree on just how simple SSBM is techincally. I, for one, find the basics to be extremely simple to pick up and apply, and yet, the advanced techs are a bit difficult to use at first, but with enough practice, they become as easy to use as running.

Also, if a player is already thinking about how to outsmart his opponent, it's highly likely that he will use what tools are available to him to defeat his opponent. Pro smashers picked up advanced techs out of necessity; they didn't use them because they were easy to use. I'm just not adamant about making these advanced techs so readily available. Why, you ask? I feel that learning those specific advanced techs are a necessary part of the learning curve, and they just cause you to think about the game differently. I may be speaking from a biased point of view, since there are those who think advanced techs are very hard to pick up, and on the other hand, there are people who picked up and were able to integrate these techs into their game in the span of a few weeks.

I can see where your argument about powersheilding and Smash DI is coming from, and I wholeheartedly agree with that. However, I still have to stand firm on the fact that L-cancelling is not hard at all, and it requires minimal practice to pull off consitently. The same is with wavedashing and other advanced techs. Then there's tuff like doubleshining, SWD, moonwalking to a upB edgehog, and other ridiculous stuff that's almost limited to pure techskill execution.

My main peeve with simplifying the button commands for advanced techs is that we'll be letting scrubs that weren't willing to devote a small amount of time to learn the techs in the first place. I can understand if someone really does find it challenging to use advanced techs, but I do believe there really isn't anything that practice can't fix.

I'm also having trouble understanding the opposing point of view because I was always willing to put in time for SSBM, and I was satisfied with my results, because I knew the result that I got would be proportional to the amount of effort that I put in. And that being said, not all human beings are equal, so the learning curve for advanced techs has been different for everyone.

And I don't think anyone here is advocating for the removal of advanced techs.

 

[CamusTC]

I see a need for tech and also a need to keep things simple. As the game becomes easier, more people will play it but overall gameplay will become dumbed down and less enjoyable for skillful players. Conversely, as the game becomes technical, there's a more dedicated fanbase but the game loses mainstream appeal.

Just look at Virtua Fighter 4, the game was considered such an advanced fighting game it got put in the Smithsonian. However, I don't see as many people playing Virtua Fighter, as much as say, Soul Calibur, which seems very button masher friendly sometimes.

 

[Chromeless]

I can, how about universal cancels (something which my game relies heavily on)? The idea is that just about any attack you can do can be canceled completely before it generates a hit box (or before it allows you to actually do any damage). This adds a completely new dimension to the game, allowing you to begin a power (or smash) attack and then get out of it as your opponent reacts to it, so that you can then go on with a completely different offensive or defensive tactic (or even another attack cancel feint).

I would personally love to see that.

 

[Miharu]

That'd add an interesting dimension to the game.

I'd wonder what cancelling nairs into uairs would be like.

 

[Zenjamin]

holy hell this thread is moving fast, i just posted, refreshed page, and bam, 4 new posts.

 

[Chromeless]

I see a need for tech and also a need to keep things simple. As the game becomes easier, more people will play it but overall gameplay will become dumbed down and less enjoyable for skillful players. Conversely, as the game becomes technical, there's a more dedicated fanbase but the game loses mainstream appeal.

Just look at Virtua Fighter 4, the game was considered such an advanced fighting game it got put in the Smithsonian. However, I don't see as many people playing Virtua Fighter, as much as say, Soul Calibur, which seems very button masher friendly sometimes.

I still don't see any reason to believe that technicality, depth and buttonmashability (hopefully that word will get into the next eddition of the Oxford dictionary ) share any intrinsic correlation, a game can be deep and untechnical at the same time while disallowing button mashing, there is simply no reason why this is not possible.

The gameplay may become less enjoyable for players who enjoy technicality, unfortunately I do not deny that, but a game can be genuinely easy to pick up and play but hard to master.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

I can, how about universal cancels (something which my game relies heavily on)? The idea is that just about any attack you can do can be canceled completely before it generates a hit box (or before it allows you to actually do any damage). This adds a completely new dimension to the game, allowing you to begin a power (or smash) attack and then get out of it as your opponent reacts to it, so that you can then go on with a completely different offensive or defensive tactic (or even another attack cancel feint).

I would personally love to see that.

How much lagg would be generated from these cancels?

Because say you have a character like ganondorf, you could just go at your opponent with a dair (a move with a lot of start up lag, and then if your opponent tries to move out of the way, you could easily just replace it with a bair or uair. How could you create a system where characters wouldn't be overpowered in this sense? I think there would have to be some amount of varied lagg for cancelling a move.

Also what about moves like Yoshi's fsmash where he leans way back before he attacks? Couldn't you exploit this dodging effect and replace it with a move that comes out really quick and leads into huge combos? I think you are on to something here. This could have a billion uses.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Nah, I think it's an even worse idea than implementing a wavedashing button.

Implementing a cancelling button would negatively impact the balance of the game.

Think about it, how do all these moves remain balanced in the game? Moves are a balance of damage, start-up lag, ending lag, hitbox, etc... if we implement cancelling it would effectively remove a good deal of drawbacks that can justify having a powerful move.

I like to play bowser and ganondorf.... two characters that have pretty laggy movelists. And you know what? by having them powerful but laggy, the creators of SSBM have made their playstyles very different from characters like sheik.

Then... what if we implement cancelling to lag in proportion of move being cancelled? Still not a good idea, because this will eliminate the window of vulnerability that is associated with every move.

I assume you would rather have people consciously perform their moves instead of button mashing? By giving less drawbacks to randomly performing attacks, you are giving more incentive to button mash. Why NOt do some laggy, powerful move, if you know you can just cancel it and react to everything your opponent does?

I would like to make an analogy to fencing, as I've always thought SSBM to be in many ways similar with fencing. In fencing, you can't force yourself onto your opponent and expect to get the touch. No, instead, you get touches by exploiting mistakes made by your opponent. Oh, you left your right arm exposed? BAM! My touch. Oh, fleched at an inappropriate time? BAM! My touch. Fencers use mindgames and try to trick the opponent into making mistakes. The guy might actually be deliberately leaving his right arm exposed, when in fact it's all a trap to get yourself vulnerable for his touch. The same, I think, holds for smash.

Imagine a sheik and a marth fighting each other. If the sheik just try to use pure skill and speed to overcome the marth, he won't get anywhere. Everytime he run to try to dash grab, he'll just smacked with marth's pimpstick. Come from air? More pimpstick. But, marth, of course, is not invulnerable. His moves, especially his f-smash have lag to them. So what would the sheik do to make the marth make a mistake? Dash in... wavedash back, knowing the marth will F-smash, then go in for an easy grab. The Sheik just tricked the marth into making a mistake, then took advantage of that mistake.

Imagine, then, there was cancelling. It would be horrible. People would be far more willing to recklessly assault their opponent, while being much less vulnerable to any punishment. Why actually spend time/effort to set up your opponent when you can just begin one long assault that will eventaully get through? When that sheik goes in for the grab after marth f-smashed, marth can just say, "Oh, just kidding. i cancelled my f-smash. Now let me f-smash again."

And since we're on the fencing analogy, why don't I talk about why techs like wavedashing and l-cancelling should be kept, as well?

Fencing, of course, is the combination of physical skill (dexterity, speed, strength) and mental skill, like virtually all sports are. Physical adeptness is simply not something that can be picked up. People must consistently practice for years to be proficient in them. Now, let me describe a particular aspect of fencing. In fencing, a particular technique was discovered, where one can flick his/her blade, and get the point to go off on his/her opponent (this was aptly named a "flick"). Consider this an advanced tech for fencing. When fencing began, no one had flicking in mind, of course. it is a more recent development by fencers. However, tournament players make good use out of flicking and incorporate it into their play.

Of course, flicking is not necessary. I myself never bothered trying to take up flicking (my epees tended to be a little stiff). It's just something extra that you can pick up if you're looking for any particular edge.

Now look at casual players. They are not looking for any particular edge, are they? No, they are content with just playing with the basic basics of the game. They don't plan on going to tournaments. Making advanced techs clearly is not a benefit to them. Who is it a benefit for?

You make the incorrect assumption that by having advanced techs like wavedashing and l-cancelling, attention is diverted from mindgames. Such is simply not the case. Sure, many people sit down with their cubes and can practice advanced techs for hours. Just because they practice advanced techs doesn't mean they neglect mindgames. In fact, people can't practice mindgames with the time they are practicing techs, so techs give people something to improve upon even when they are by themselves.

What about friendlies? Just because there is an emphasis on tech skill doesn't mean someone will have no subtlety in their game. Technical skill and mindgames go hand in hand, and do not vie for a player's attention. After consistently wavedashing into a f-smash, a player WILL learn mindgames. Mindgames will develop. Tech skill will develop. Making tech skill easier will not increase the mindgames.

 

[Chromeless]

How much lagg would be generated from these cancels?

Because say you have a character like ganondorf, you could just go at your opponent with a dair (a move with a lot of start up lag, and then if your opponent tries to move out of the way, you could easily just replace it with a bair or uair. How could you create a system where characters wouldn't be overpowered in this sense? I think there would have to be some amount of varied lagg for cancelling a move.

Also what about moves like Yoshi's fsmash where he leans way back before he attacks? Couldn't you exploit this dodging effect and replace it with a move that comes out really quick and leads into huge combos? I think you are on to something here. This could have a billion uses.

I definately agree that that aspect cannot be ignored, the mechanics can't allow for such huge advanteges to arise and so some degree of leg is necessary, but taking that into account it would allow for alot of freedom that would otherwise not exist.

 

[Chromeless]

I think it would be best if I took this particular subject (universal canceling) into a seperate thread. I'd rather not take this one off topic.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

You make the incorrect assumption that by having advanced techs like wavedashing and l-cancelling, attention is diverted from mindgames. Such is simply not the case. Sure, many people sit down with their cubes and can practice advanced techs for hours. Just because they practice advanced techs doesn't mean they neglect mindgames. In fact, people can't practice mindgames with the time they are practicing techs, so techs give people something to improve upon even when they are by themselves.

What about friendlies? Just because there is an emphasis on tech skill doesn't mean someone will have no subtlety in their game. Technical skill and mindgames go hand in hand, and do not vie for a player's attention. After consistently wavedashing into a f-smash, a player WILL learn mindgames. Mindgames will develop. Tech skill will develop. Making tech skill easier will not increase the mindgames.

Well see I will have to disagree there. If you include many different 'advanced techs' in a game that aren't so advanced to perform, you will have a game that has a lot of depth from the very beginning. In the long run the mindgames will be much farther along if you are playing with the same set of moves you had to begin with. If you are able to wavedash from the beginning, then there will be more total gameplay, that involves wavedashing. Logically I'm going to assume that more gameplay experience means more development of mind games. Therefore there will be more mind games built around a game that involves wavedashing, because people were able to do it from the beginning.

Look at civilization. Look at how much more we can do with having a calculator compared to just pencil and paper. Calculators allow us to put a greater amount of time into the more advanced concepts rather than concentrate on the tedious basics of simple math.

One could argue that this generation is incredibly calculator dependent. No arguing that there, but we are still far more capable then we were before without calculators and computer programs that can graph and analyze functions.

Sometimes the easy way is better, even if it promotes laziness.

Calculators ftw. GG

 

[Frozenserpent]

Well see I will have to disagree there. If you include many different 'advanced techs' in a game that aren't so advanced to perform, you will have a game that has a lot of depth from the very beginning. In the long run the mindgames will be much farther along if you are playing with the same set of moves you had to begin with. If you are able to wavedash from the beginning, then there will be more total gameplay, that involves wavedashing. Logically I'm going to assume that more gameplay experience means more development of mind games. Therefore there will be more mind games built around a game that involves wavedashing, because people were able to do it from the beginning.

Look at civilization. Look at how much more we can do with having a calculator compared to just pencil and paper. Calculators allow us to put a greater amount of time into the more advanced concepts rather than concentrate on the tedious basics of simple math.

Calculators ftw. GG

Yes, calculators, my anti-drug. <3.

Think about it. If you make everything accessible from the beginning, you are flooding a new smasher with unnecessary techs. You're asking him to develop mindgames with wavedashing before he has even mastered the basics. It's like trying to climb up a wall, as opposed to taking stairs.

It's not like they should try to master wavedashing at the very beginning, either. Currently, it is like this.... beginner masters basics. Ok. Masters basic mindgames. ok. Now... maybe he feels he has the basics down, and he looks into this "advanced stuff". Masters wavedashing, ok. Masters mindgames with wavedashing. Then he can move on and master the advanced techs one by one.

I remember when I first played SSBM. First of all, i couldn't time a smash correctly, consistently. I didn't implement air dodging, shielding, rolling, or spot dodging, or even grabbing in my game as well. You are saying that such a person should also be given the button to wavedash and everything? he won't use it. There's no point. It would only screw with the control scheme.

 

[Miharu]

You're assuming that development will stay constant, and that people will develop mindgames faster because of techs that were given to them? That really doesn't make any sense. People won't develop better mindgames simply because they are exposed to wavedashing earlier on. It might give them a small head start, but once others catch on, they quickly rise to the same level, so the point is pretty much moot.

Mind you, making a lot of movement options available doesn't give the game more depth. It's like giving a child a supercomputer. Sure, it can process anything you think of in the blink of an eye, but a 3 year old child won't know the first thing about even using the god**** thing. What I'm saying is if you just give them all these sophisticated techs before they're even grounded in the basics of the game, they won't know the first thing about implementing them. For example, take SSBM. What's the point of teaching some newb how to wavedash if they can't even perform a basic smash attack yet? Once they get the basics down, their dexterity should have developed to the point where they are able to perform advanced techs, and things will go on from there.

Calculators could only be built because of our prior extensive knowledge (as a race) of science and mathematics. Calculators were developed through pure, hard work, and they obviously weren't there at the beginning of time, before math even existed. Math came first, then calculators were later developed to make the basic calculations easier, because we were already grounded in the basics.

Once again, I make my point and say, no pain, no gain. I'd like to see people spend some time on learning advanced techs, and not just be able to do them at the press of a button. It ruins the depth of the game, and was stated previously, it increases the luck factor in the game, which detracts from it being a serious measure of skill. As Frozenserpent stated earlier, adding buttons for wavedashing and lcancelling willl just reduce the drawbacks for spamming attacks randomly, and that's what I'm most concerned about.

Button mashing defeats the purpose of fighting games.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Actually, that wasn't what i said about adding buttons for advanced techs reducing drawbacks of spamming moves. That part was about adding a button for cancelling.

My main gripe about this idea of wavedashing button is that A.) it's unnecessary, B.) it attempts to address a nonexistant problem, while detracting from the overall experience. It's simply a bad idea. I hope you don't seriously think nintendo should actually implement this, and that you're just speculating on how to improve the game (it doesn't).

 

[Scintillatedseed]

Why in the world would you guys want it easy to wavedash, or waveshine, or L-cancel?

It really doesn't matter.

If you're a competitive player, you're going to easily invest the few minutes to practice tech skills a bit, then the playing to master the techs.

If you're a casual player.... then why bother with techs at all, especially if you have no knowledge of it? Casual players play fine without advanced techs.

Keep in mind, also, that regardless of how easy you make wavedashing, or waveshining, or stuff like that, more advanced techs will come out. Smash constantly evolves, with new techs being discovered, new techniques, etc. If it doesn't, then it's a **** game and it'll stagnate.

Furthermore, i can't understand how someone can find wavedashing extremely difficult... It simply boggles my mind. Sure, it can be difficult if you don't know the details on actually doing it, but once you know how to, it takes less than five minutes to do. The difficulty is to incorporate it into your game.

Get it through to your head, I'm not saying I have any beef with advanced technique's. In fact, I'm for them as the more advanced techs there are the more depth and the more fun teh game. What I'm simply for is ridding things that I feel may be unnecessary for adding to the funfactor.

Smash bros. had refined l-canceling to make it easier in melee and they also invented a whole bunch of other advanced technique's along the way. Street fighter 3 had to refine parrying 3 times to make it actually useful and they added red-parry's to boot. Slight modifications are necessary to advance teh fun factor of the game. If l-canceling becomes a slight easier, and I'm only speaking of 10%-30% then you'll ahve more things to focus on. Nobody enjoys getting hit because they accidently missed an l-cancel, and going through hours of practice to just avoid that is no fun. You want to sepnd your time and energies towards the things that are fun. This is a game, and the reward of winning a tournament just isn't enough to appeal to a general public. L-canceling is an obstacle to improving mind games, and as of now only a tiny percentage of smash player's use it, let alone know it exists. But seeing as how there will be many other things to improve on, the simplifying of l-canceling may allow for people to focus on other aspects of the game and to allow newbies to want to implement it. Technical skill will still exist, but with a plethora of other tech skills out there, you would want to focus on the other's one just as well. There are always other elements to improve upon in the game, it will not stagnate from one tech being slihgtly simplified.

Also the more player's there are that become aware of technical skills, the more competition there will be. A slight modification will allow for new player's to join the scene, instead of leaving it to be a feat that only a small group should be able to accomplish. I will concede that smash is generally quite easy to perform well technically. But I can only say that now because of months and months of practice, my freinds can't say nearly the same. Perhaps people just need to be known about l-canceling and advanced techniques in general in order for the comeptitive community to grow. Or perhaps it's popularity just needs to be up there. My stance on simplifying l-canceling or some techniques isn't absolute. But I do think bringing more peopel to the scene will equate to More prizes, more more challengers, more diversity, and more tournies. How can you complain about that?

 

[Chromeless]

Actually, that wasn't what i said about adding buttons for advanced techs reducing drawbacks of spamming moves. That part was about adding a button for cancelling.

My main gripe about this idea of wavedashing button is that A.) it's unnecessary, B.) it attempts to address a nonexistant problem, while detracting from the overall experience. It's simply a bad idea. I hope you don't seriously think nintendo should actually implement this, and that you're just speculating on how to improve the game (it doesn't).

Actually, both A and B are pretty much how I feel about keeping techs complex, I think that they are unnecessary and try to adress a nonexistant problem (keeping advancing through the ranks based on skill), while detracting from the overall experience. Its simply a bad idea.

And yes, I am completely serious about everything I've said and fully believe that all of it will enhance the game if implimented properly. I do think that having technical skill seperate ranks of players is very much a 'problem', as least it is for people who like me would rather the game focus on dynamics.


"This time, we'd like to stress easiness over the small details of combat, so overall it might become somewhat easier."

Based on Sakurai's comments though, it seems more likely that this will go my way then yours (though depending on the translation this may be bad for both of us).

 

[Frozenserpent]

How will making L-cancelling easier encourage people to get into the tournament scene? If you wanted to encourage tournament growth, why not advertise smashboards and smash tourneys, and try to make smash more mainstream? Making L-cancelling easier does.... absolutely nothing. Newcomers will get *****. If they play for fun... then let them have fun. Why is wavedashing or L-cancelling required to have fun?

Again, i ask you... .what's the point of making it any easier? Why not just make everything automatically L-cancelled? Why have L-cancelling at all? Why don't we just cut all the landing lag of aerials by half, and leave it at that?

You keep mentioning how L-cancelling is a necessity. Well, it's only a necessity in a competitive situation. It's unnecessary in order to have fun. In fact, i would make the argument that removing L-cancelling, (or making it significantly easier) would detract from one's enjoyment of smash. If we remove L-cancelling, or make it so everyone who picks up the game knows about it and can do it, then there will be less to discover for people who pick up the game.

You know why i was impressed by seeing pro vids of smash? It was because the stuff they did was amazing to me. I never seen anything like that before. That amazing stuff they did.... that motivated me to go to smashboards, and learn more about the competitive scene. Imagine, instead, that I already knew about wavedashing and L-cancelling. It lessens the impact of first watching a pro vid. It wouldn't be as amazing. I wouldn't be as motivated to look deeper into smash.


Sorry if i'm rambling. I just tend to type down my thoughts and leave it at that. I might be repeating myself here and there.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

You make the incorrect assumption that by having advanced techs like wavedashing and l-cancelling, attention is diverted from mindgames. Such is simply not the case. Sure, many people sit down with their cubes and can practice advanced techs for hours. Just because they practice advanced techs doesn't mean they neglect mindgames. In fact, people can't practice mindgames with the time they are practicing techs, so techs give people something to improve upon even when they are by themselves.

What about friendlies? Just because there is an emphasis on tech skill doesn't mean someone will have no subtlety in their game. Technical skill and mindgames go hand in hand, and do not vie for a player's attention. After consistently wavedashing into a f-smash, a player WILL learn mindgames. Mindgames will develop. Tech skill will develop. Making tech skill easier will not increase the mindgames.

Good boy, +rep. See now this guy knows what he is talking about. Not that redsox doesn't, but these thoughts are very clearly demonstrated. I agree with everything here.

 

[Zenjamin]

How will making L-cancelling easier encourage people to get into the tournament scene? If you wanted to encourage tournament growth, why not advertise smashboards and smash tourneys, and try to make smash more mainstream? Making L-cancelling easier does.... absolutely nothing. Newcomers will get *****. If they play for fun... then let them have fun. Why is wavedashing or L-cancelling required to have fun?


You keep mentioning how L-cancelling is a necessity. Well, it's only a necessity in a competitive situation. It's unnecessary in order to have fun. In fact, i would make the argument that removing L-cancelling, (or making it significantly easier) would detract from one's enjoyment of smash. If we remove L-cancelling, or make it so everyone who picks up the game knows about it and can do it, then there will be less to discover for people who pick up the game.

umm, did you read any of my previous posts?
i will shortly repeat myself for your benifit.


i am a smasher who playes for fun. and if i ever go to a tourny it will be for fun. (even though i have a chance of winning now.)


every smasher who only playes for fun, increases in skill through simply playing.
and they have more fun as they increase in skill.
timing tilts to bounce my oponet off of the great fox is way more fun then spaming my B-moves
the more faced paced, competivitive, and involved, the more fun.

it is fun to increase in skill while having fun.


then comes the wall. you stop getting better because you have learned it all, you cant get faster. you cant fake your frient out any more then you already can.

then comes the guy who knows techs, he kicks your as$, and you love it. he's moving faster then you thought possible and messing with your mind by sliding across the ground.
you ask him how its done, you would love to be able to do what he does. it would be fun.
so he tells you. and you groan and the tedious and long process of learning these techs.

some decide not to go further then here, some decide to progress because it would equate to more fun in the long run.

i was the later. and yes, moving faster, and having access to all these mind games makes the game more fun



i know i used the word fun alot, but i wanted keep it simple and to stress that those who wanted to have the option to move like that exceed those who want to pwn in the tournment scene

 

[fr0st2k]

redsoxfan ... i 100% agree with everything youre saying

i would prefer it a littles less technical as well. But still very similar to current game play.

Its not because i can't do those moves, its just, like you said, the game is more about mind games with its very free style of movement and attack.

I dont like memorizing certain moves that can do a specific amount of damage to any given character at any given %. Thats not a game any more.. its ridiculous and unfun. I prefer the spontaneity of combat, and coming up with moves on the spot. Having to worry about the technical game is just a nuisance

 

[RedSoxFan3]

redsoxfan ... i 100% agree with everything youre saying

i would prefer it a littles less technical as well. But still very similar to current game play.

Its not because i can't do those moves, its just, like you said, the game is more about mind games with its very free style of movement and attack.

I dont like memorizing certain moves that can do a specific amount of damage to any given character at any given %. Thats not a game any more.. its ridiculous and unfun. I prefer the spontaneity of combat, and coming up with moves on the spot. Having to worry about the technical game is just a nuisance

I agree that some technicalities can be a bit of a nuisance and could be designed a little bit easier to perform, however I feel that to some degree memorizing certain move orders at any given % is very much fun. Say you are playing Ganon against DK and you are at around 20%. You better **** well worried about getting grabbed, because you know you'll get grabbed which means uthrow, uair, uair, uair, uair.

However say you are at around 70%-90%. DK can't really combo you quite the same way anymore. He could probably just hit you once after a grab. So unless he has a fully charged B, there's no need to worry about getting grabbed. This is in itself wonderful dynamics. DK can threaten that grab at 10%-20%.

Likewise with chain grabbing. As Fox, you should know when you should know at what percent to Smash DI up and then you'll be able to shine out of Marth's chain grab. However there are still things Marth can do to throw off Fox, he can mix it up with unexpected utilts. Likely Fox won't react in time and may fail to DI properly allowing Marth to capitolize.

 

[th0rn]

timing tilts to bounce my oponet off of the great fox is way more fun then spaming my B-moves

Because ALL technical players spam b-moves

 

[Cort]

Falcos do *cough*

Anyway, on this topic... I think the only place for SSBB to go is up technically. They will definitly include all the current technical things you do unless they drastically change the entire physics of the game. And I assume they're going to add more as well.

Actually, I hope the game gets more technical.

 

[Zenjamin]

Because ALL technical players spam b-moves

umm...
what?

please actually read my post, i never said "technical players spam b-moves"
i was referring to how spamming Bmoves (what many of us were doing the first time we touched a smash game) was far less fun that playing with skill, proper timing, combos, anticipation, ect.

Actually, I hope the game gets more technical.

As do i, I just hope learning those techs isn’t mind numbing, repetitive, tedium.
Learning how to use those techs is where the focus should be.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Everything that your opponent does has to be predicted or expected in order for you to be ready to wall tech. There's an element of surprise that makes this more dynamic.

However with L-canceling you will always know when you are going to land. There's nothing unpredictable about that.

Would baseball be fun if you knew the pitch was going to go down the middle every time? Or would it be more fun if you were never quite sure what pitch was going to come? The one with that element of surprise is clearly much more difficult and will in the long run be much more enjoyable to apply during the game.

Baseball has that element of surprise. Wall teching is like playing baseball. L-cancelling is like the homerun derby. Sure the homerun derby is fun the first year or two you watch it when you're a kid, but it gets boring. It's all flash. There's no real depth to the game of homerun derby.

That makes sense, but you changed the anology from Power Shielding to Wall Teching In any case, I agree.

 

[ArcNatural]

You know what lets make techs EVEN EASIER! Have Y be wavedash right, have X be wavedash left! That way when I play fox i can just hit downB Y or X and upsmash! YES~! For Falco B should be changed to a sh FF laser! that way I just have to move forward and BAM! it works! WOW! L-canceling should be infinitely active! that way i can Dair with Jiggly to rest everytime! NO WAIT WAIT, everytime someone passes through Jiggly the game should automatically rest the @#$!@#!@%@%!!!!!!!! It would be so much easier to do that way!

Everyone has already said what needed to be said in this post. I personally think dumbing down the controls to make techs easier is stupid. 1. THEY ARE NOT HARD TO LEARN! Sure it may be hard to do consecutively like Pro's can but that is just practice. 2. See reasons in 1st paragraph. This game would have died probably in the first year if such were possible. I don't know about you but if wavedashing were put to a button it would be ridiculously annoying, bunch of noob players just hitting the button and running around the level. I think every competitive fighting came has to have some aspect of technical skill to keep the game interesting and constantly evolving. Why don't you just request Brawl only use A and B and Controller Stick, and just have the game's CPU do the right move for you?

 

[RedSoxFan3]

You know what lets make techs EVEN EASIER! Have Y be wavedash right, have X be wavedash left! That way when I play fox i can just hit downB Y or X and upsmash! YES~! For Falco B should be changed to a sh FF laser! that way I just have to move forward and BAM! it works! WOW! L-canceling should be infinitely active! that way i can Dair with Jiggly to rest everytime! NO WAIT WAIT, everytime someone passes through Jiggly the game should automatically rest the @#$!@#!@%@%!!!!!!!! It would be so much easier to do that way!

Everyone has already said what needed to be said in this post. I personally think dumbing down the controls to make techs easier is stupid. 1. THEY ARE NOT HARD TO LEARN! Sure it may be hard to do consecutively like Pro's can but that is just practice. 2. See reasons in 1st paragraph. This game would have died probably in the first year if such were possible. I don't know about you but if wavedashing were put to a button it would be ridiculously annoying, bunch of noob players just hitting the button and running around the level. I think every competitive fighting came has to have some aspect of technical skill to keep the game interesting and constantly evolving. Why don't you just request Brawl only use A and B and Controller Stick, and just have the game's CPU do the right move for you?

Tell me you read at least half of the thread, then I won't slap you with my dong.