Should SSBB be less technical then SSBM?

[Zenjamin]

Tell me you read at least half of the thread, then I won't slap you with my dong.

you beat me too it.
however if he has read so much of the thread and still doesnt get the point, slap him with a foot long

 

[ArcNatural]

I read most of it, I just wanted to let off steam to so many that want to make the game easier.

I'm in favor of leaving techs the way they are, with no more accessibilities or more frames of time in which you can hit your tech. I believe someone here did mention assigning wavedash to a button which I believe would lead to many noobs just flying around the screen. Due to the fact it does require more than 1 button it is better off left to players who would learn the technique and use it more appropriately. I can still play people for fun and just not l-cancel, wavedash, tech chase, etc. and still have fun. But it's much more encouraging at least to me and my friends to learn the technical aspects of this game then actually using them appropriately when playing.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

I read most of it, I just wanted to let off steam to so many that want to make the game easier.

I'm in favor of leaving techs the way they are, with no more accessibilities or more frames of time in which you can hit your tech. I believe someone here did mention assigning wavedash to a button which I believe would lead to many noobs just flying around the screen. Due to the fact it does require more than 1 button it is better off left to players who would learn the technique and use it more appropriately. I can still play people for fun and just not l-cancel, wavedash, tech chase, etc. and still have fun. But it's much more encouraging at least to me and my friends to learn the technical aspects of this game then actually using them appropriately when playing.

First off I think you need to realize that you shouldn't be getting angry over some silly hypothetical discussion that's taking place at an online forum. There's more important things in life to get upset over man. Trust me I get upset everytime I play a video game. Even if I'm winning by like 3 stocks and miss an l-cancel or flub up a wavedash I still get pissed. It sucks, but sometimes I have better days then others (mentally and technically ).

But anyway to address your arguement that noobs will be wavedashing all over the place...

I've seen people wavedash around all willy nilly. I just charge at them and dsmash when they wavedash into me. I can also dash attack or various other things and I'm almost never punished for it. Just because noobs are wavedashing all willy nilly doesn't make them any good. They wouldn't know how to use it.

I don't see it as being a horrible idea, but in the same sense I can also see the annoyance factor. If you want to know what I think would really happen.

Scrubs would just wavedash backwards and spam fsmash the whole match. That would really be the worst thing that could happen. Maybe I just don't see all the things that are really bad about this. I think that by making this a basic move, it will be less broken then it was in SSBM. I mean look at waveshining. I really don't see waveshining being kept unless it's nerfed heavily. If a character can waveshine, it shouldn't mean instant death for half the characters in the game. Look at Jiggs. I bet you would see Jiggs a lot more in competitive play. Jiggs would **** Fox without waveshining.

I think that as long as the technical skill of Fox/Falco continues to increase, the fewer and fewer characters you will see at tournament play. At some point the matches are going to basically be Fox, Falco, and Marth. That's pretty much all it is now. You won't see Peach, you won't see Falcon, you won't see Jiggs. Hell you almost never see Shiek anymore.

 

[TAMASHI]

IMO It should be -way- less technical, if not any adv techs at all, i think it just makes a better game.

 

[Xin]

I will put it this way, making techs easier to perform almost eliminates the chances of mistakes when trying to tech. Some people speak as though techs by those with experience are pulled off 100% of the time. I can tell you that this is not the case, making wavedash a button eliminates the chances of mistakes made my the user in the process of wavedashing. Even though I have been wavedashing for over 3 years, I still have a chance of messing up under pressure no matter how good I am at it. Same goes for L-cancelling, if you increase the frames, it eliminates the chance of mistiming or messing up, which in affect decreasing the spontaniality of the match.

Same goes for any "advanced" techs, I can tell you now that Ken the number one player in the world (who i really, really want to fight right now) does not do l-cancelling 100% of the time, I may give him 7-80% of the time because not only do you have to make L-cancelling a habit, you are also focused on other things when you are in the middle of a match. He doesn't tech 100% of the time either, and he doesn't wavedash perfectly every time, i can tell you that much as well. We are humans and we make mistakes when under different kinds of pressure and/or concentrating on other things.

By making techs easier to perform, you really make the game worse in my opinion. You eliminate the chance of mistakes, making the game to perfect and easy. If the window for L-cancelling were widened from 20 to 40 frames, no one would ever miss it. By assigning a button to wave dash, you eliminate the proccess of having to go through it.

Jumping to air dodging at an angle shortly after you leave the ground.

Mistakes can be made during this proccess which can give the opponent an advantage. Instead of sliding onto the edge, you airdodge to far and fall off of it. There are mistakes made mid battle as well.

Making techs easier takes away from the spontaniality of the game, widening the room for less error so that the majority of those who don't really like how techs are now, or those who don't know about techs an easier time competing.

The way the game is now is perfect, because no matter how hard you practice you can still mess up because these require percision and general understanding of how your character falls, jumps, and airdodges. Making things easier makes it so that you don't need to understand the character as much and makes it so that anyone who just picks up the controller and with a month of practice against nothing but computers can apply mindgames and take down the best. Or atleast that's the impression I get.

 

[Zenjamin]

Arcnatural,
noobs are already wavedashing all over the place.

being able to wave-dash does not mean you have the skill or smarts to know when and how to use it.
my friend had been wave dashing for months and just spams it back and forth. i just picked it up and he was amazed at how well i could use wave dash.

likewise, not being able to wavedash doe not mean you do not have the skill or smarts to know when and how to use it. (same goes with other techs)



















TAMASHI, read the other posts that explain why techs make the game faster, more fun, and more imersive.
the use of techs is good, the process of learning them is not.

 

[Xin]

Arcnatural,
the use of techs is good, the process of learning them is not.

This is personal opinion, please do not speak as though everyone agrees that learning this is not fun. I had alot of fun learning them, though learning how to apply them was a bit more difficult.

 

[Zenjamin]

which in affect decreasing the spontaniality of the match.

.

i did read your whole post, and you never back this claim up.
(Which you seem to hold as your main argument)


Why would making techs easier to learn decrease the spontaniality of the match? in most of my posts on this thread i explain how it would increase the spontaniality of the game.
If you are focused on how your fingers are moving on the controller, you are less focused on how your character is moving. Less focused on the actual game.

 

[Zenjamin]

This is personal opinion, please do not speak as though everyone agrees that learning this is not fun. I had alot of fun learning them, though learning how to apply them was a bit more difficult.

Wow, everyone in my crew hated spending hours at a time trying to get this down.
However I suppose our culture does support hoop jumping, you will be very successful in life


but at least we agree that the real focus is learning how to use these tools called techs.
do we agree that is where the focus should stay?

 

[Miharu]

IMO It should be -way- less technical, if not any adv techs at all, i think it just makes a better game.

You do realize that we're going to ignore this because this is a discussion, not a place to blow off steam. So if you want to say something, please back it up with some reasoned thought. Otherwise this is just going to be a pointless argument, with no chance of progressive thought.

First off I think you need to realize that you shouldn't be getting angry over some silly hypothetical discussion that's taking place at an online forum. There's more important things in life to get upset over man. Trust me I get upset everytime I play a video game. Even if I'm winning by like 3 stocks and miss an l-cancel or flub up a wavedash I still get pissed. It sucks, but sometimes I have better days then others (mentally and technically ).

But anyway to address your arguement that noobs will be wavedashing all over the place...

I've seen people wavedash around all willy nilly. I just charge at them and dsmash when they wavedash into me. I can also dash attack or various other things and I'm almost never punished for it. Just because noobs are wavedashing all willy nilly doesn't make them any good. They wouldn't know how to use it.

I don't see it as being a horrible idea, but in the same sense I can also see the annoyance factor. If you want to know what I think would really happen.

Scrubs would just wavedash backwards and spam fsmash the whole match. That would really be the worst thing that could happen. Maybe I just don't see all the things that are really bad about this. I think that by making this a basic move, it will be less broken then it was in SSBM. I mean look at waveshining. I really don't see waveshining being kept unless it's nerfed heavily. If a character can waveshine, it shouldn't mean instant death for half the characters in the game. Look at Jiggs. I bet you would see Jiggs a lot more in competitive play. Jiggs would **** Fox without waveshining.

Waveshining/Wavedashinng isn't "broken" by any means. I don't believe anybody in the world can pull of the whole lot of advanced techs consitently, 100%, all the time. Also, waveshining doesn't constitue a guaranteed death, since there's still a chance for human error. By making wavedashing easier to perform, you're only decreasing the chances of error, which is in the execution of the wavedash itself, and that definitely will make waveshining much easier. If something is easier to pull off, it'll have a higher potential of being "broken." And to your "wavedashing equals death for half the characters in the game" point, it's not true. Only Sheik, Peach, Yoshi, Roy, Ganondorf, Zelda, Bowser, and Link can be waveshined. Jigglypuff can't get waveshined...

I think that as long as the technical skill of Fox/Falco continues to increase, the fewer and fewer characters you will see at tournament play. At some point the matches are going to basically be Fox, Falco, and Marth. That's pretty much all it is now. You won't see Peach, you won't see Falcon, you won't see Jiggs. Hell you almost never see Shiek anymore.

It's just that space animals are dominating the tourney scene right now, but it's not stopping anyone from using any of the 24 other characters in the game. The top 5 are still pretty prevalent, along with the rest of high/mid tier, but you just don't see them winning any major tourneys, that's all.

 

[Xin]

How you ask? It really is supported by alot in my post, it decreases the chance of mistakes made through the fight. The mistakes made are spontanious, big or small and can easily be exploited.

By making the techs easier you take away from game play in my opinion. Less places to catch people in their mistakes which I believe would make the gameplay more stale. Even being off my a margin can cost you when doing a tech, and no one is always garunteed to land the tech properly every given time.

By making thing easier you lesson the chance for human error in small margins of time that it takes to perform these techs properly. If anyone can slide by hitting a single button, where is the fun in that? Atleast knowing your opponent has to hit several buttons and toggle the joy stick in a certain direction you know there is a chance he could mess up, as well as his judgement when using it. You don't know which one he will mess up, especially if he is doing it wildly back and forth just to try to fake you out. Yet by making the tech assigned to one button or widening the frame time you take away one aspect of making a mistake and only narrowing it down to one.

As for your question though, I can't agree that your focus should only be on how to apply the tech during battle. Learning all the techs didn't take my long, maybe because I have quick fingers, but learning the tech is half of it. The other half should be conquering your high chance of human error under pressure when executing the technique, down to a low percentage. I believe that after you accomplish that it becomes a bit easier, and you are somewhat proud of yourself. Though, like i said, it didn't take me hours to learn the tech or get the timing, but it did take me alot of matches to get over my high percentage of human error when fighting my friends. By the way, it also didn't take them long to learn or apply the techs either <_<.

 

[Zenjamin]

Hydro Kirby,


as your sig says "falco user" , I find myself a little skeptical of your defense of the mechanics of shining and the space animals

 

[Miharu]

i did read your whole post, and you never back this claim up.
(Which you seem to hold as your main argument)


Why would making techs easier to learn decrease the spontaniality of the match? in most of my posts on this thread i explain how it would increase the spontaniality of the game.
If you are focused on how your fingers are moving on the controller, you are less focused on how your character is moving. Less focused on the actual game.

This is where practice comes into play. Are you that against putting in extra hours? In effect, I'm comparing this to sports. There's casual/amateur play, then there's professional play. Pros obviously put much more time into practicing than the amateurs do, and consquently, they're better at it. The point is, you don't practice techs by yourself, and only by yourself. After you get the basic concept down, you force yourself to use it in actual gameplay. You'll lose a whole string of matches at first, but that's only because you're giving yourself a deliberate handicap. Once wavedashing begins to feel more natural, your mind becomes less and less focused on it, and more and more focused on the other aspects of the game.

It's not like making the advanced techs as they are will discourage people from learning them. If we have an individual who really aspires to do well at this game, they will overcome all the barriers they can, simply because they want to improve. If they don't have the willpower to do so, frankly, they wouldn't be a very good player at the pro level anyways.

On another point, people have always been happy once they learn to use the advanced techs in game; it's like they finally overcame an obstacle, and now they've moved up to a new level of thinking and gaming. This also addresses human mentality: nobody wants to be proficient at a game that any scrub can pick up, and learn all the advanced techs within a day. There's no point, since hours of hard work can be gone to waste if the scrub happens to luckily press the right button for wavedashing, then by another stroke of luck, happens to tap the c-stick in the right direction. It just increases the luck factor, which is inversely proportional to the skill factor. You decrease the amount of skill needed, and the amount of luck needed has to increase.

Hydro Kirby,


as your sig says "falco user" , I find myself a little skeptical of your defense of the mechanics of shining and the space animals.

It'd be nice if you'd explain in greater detail exactly what you mean by that.

 

[Zenjamin]

but I thought we already agreed that knowing how to read the situation, and knowing how and when to use techs was where the real skill was, I thought we agreed that was the real hard stuff.
There will still be mistakes to be exploited.

p.s. ive watched quite allot of pro matches and if ken doesn’t l-cancel, its because he doesn’t want to.
Once techs become habit, mistakes in doing them rarely happen.

 

[Zenjamin]

This is where practice comes into play. Are you that against putting in extra hours?

I already stated that I have already logged my hours and have mastered techs enough to effectively use them in matches.
So don’t try to use "you’re just being lazy" card.


btw,
Why do people always want to compare smash to sports or some other game? If you want football or tekken, go play football or tekken.
Smash is so successful and popular because of how unique it is.

It'd be nice if you'd explain in greater detail exactly what you mean by that.

umm,
That those with an advantage will always defend that advantage.
/shrug, its no big deal, it’s only a natural reaction.
Just as I defend ganon's 4 hit KO combos

 

[cF=)]

Does anybody feel, like me, that learning advanced techniques has not only increased his fun the in game but also lowered the skill difference between multiple players ? I actively support the transfert of all the tech skills from one Smash title to another because of both reason stated above.

I've started playing this game at launch day with my friends, spending countless hours of bashing our favorite Nintendo characters in one big mess (with items !).
After about a year, the game became odd and we lefted it for such title has Tales of Symphonia, Phantasy Star Online ep. 1&2, and many more.

And guess why we came back to SSBM with has much excitement has the first day we played ? That's right, the challenge of learning a whole new way of fighting. It didn't took long to get good with the basics such as WD or L-canceling, we were practicing each time we could get in gang and that's pretty much it. No weekend spended alone in front of a TV just trying to get better. Only playing with our fellow friends and raising our skill level slowly but surely.

I guess everybody should look at it that way. Smash has stayed for years a multiplayer fun and crazy game. Learning advanced techs has not decreased his potential of goodness, hell it has raised it by 1000%.

One forum, one game, a million of happy kids, teenagers and adults. I guess this is why I feel advanced tech should stay, just because it gather a bigger range of people. The technical side hook gamers who are in need of micro and challenge, the rest can play it the ol' fashioned way.

Just my two cents, and between, I've read the entire thread before posting

 

[Xin]

I guess I could put it this way Zen.

Human error and luck is what allows us to get out of an opponents combos. In a sense, making things easier to do makes it harder for the opponent to escape, which could still set off a whole new string of problems and a whole new tier list in SSBB.

Also, things that you would feel much better about playing wouldn't be as worth it. An example would be (I am a fox, Falco, and Link user, yes fox is my main... it this will probably work against me) when I juggled my friends with the nair kick which short hopping. When I first pulled this off I was proud of myself because I had done it as perfect as possible 4 times in a row. Then as I continued to try and pull it off, it got easier and easier, though I still made mistakes which allowed my friends to get out of the combo. If this were any easier for me to pull off, imagine how upset people would be if they could never get out because i had perfect timing and widened windows of opportunity (in this case, longer frames in which to L-cancel). I could hit someone once and relentlessly go on a spree and make it infinitely harder for someone to get out because the room for human error is much less. It's unfair when I think about it that way. Or imagine falco's drill shine, or juggling people with links moves and projectiles.

In my opinion things should be kept how they are so that human error can play as big a role in SSBB as it does in SSBM. Taking out the high chance of messing up that people have to conquer in the execution of techs takes out a large percentage of the human error factor in the game. Probably bigger than most people realize.

Yea, I've seen quite a few matches where I could point out where Ken completely missed an L-cancel even though he tried or needed to hit it. I now rarely mess up my techs, but the chance is still there. I can agree that learning when and how to use the techs requires skill, but not so much skill as of knoledge, pulling off the techs requires skill and or timing and percision. Mistakes can be made during those faults in someone's skill or situation in the execution of the tech. Techs becoming easier only eliminates human error in the execution part, does that clear things up a little? Or am I still confusing you? Let me know, I don't mind rephrasing a bit so you can understand what im saying better. I hate confusing people with words. >.<

Even when I waveshine with fox, I can't do it 100% perfect. I can do it 4-5 times on average but sometimes I slide to short or past them and have to switch directions and I wasn't prepared too. What I'm seeing with making techs easier is perfect execution ever time. Set distance for sliding etc, im not really liking that as I also see it taking away from the flexibility of some of the techs. Again, this is just my opinion and what i foresee happening if techs were made easier or assigned to buttons.

 

[Zenjamin]

Does anybody feel, like me, that learning advanced techniques has not only increased his fun the in game but also lowered the skill difference between multiple players ? I actively support the transfert of all the tech skills from one Smash title to another because of both reason stated above.

I've started playing this game at launch day with my friends, spending countless hours of bashing our favorite Nintendo characters in one big mess (with items !).
After about a year, the game became odd and we lefted it for such title has Tales of Symphonia, Phantasy Star Online ep. 1&2, and many more.

And guess why we came back to SSBM with has much excitement has the first day we played ? That's right, the challenge of learning a whole new way of fighting. It didn't took long to get good with the basics such as WD or L-canceling, we were practicing each time we could get in gang and that's pretty much it. No weekend spended alone in front of a TV just trying to get better. Only playing with our fellow friends and raising our skill level slowly but surely.

I guess everybody should look at it that way. Smash has stayed for years a multiplayer fun and crazy game. Learning advanced techs has not decreased his potential of goodness, hell it has raised it by 1000%.

One forum, one game, a million of happy kids, teenagers and adults. I guess this is why I feel advanced tech should stay, just because it gather a bigger range of people. The technical side hook gamers who are in need of micro and challenge, the rest can play it the ol' fashioned way.

Just my two cents, and between, I've read the entire thread before posting

i do agree with you.

just like you i stoped playing because there didnt seem much left to do, then i went through learning techs, and the game got so much faster and more fun.

not everyone can take the time to learn these techs though, thats the beef i have with them.
(i whoop my brother so bad he doesnt even like the game anymore. i tell him to learn the techs and he tells me that he actually has a life)

 

[Miharu]

I already stated that I have already logged my hours and have mastered techs enough to effectively use them in matches.
So don’t try to use "you’re just being lazy" card.


btw,
Why do people always want to compare smash to sports or some other game? If you want football or tekken, go play football or tekken.
Smash is so successful and popular because of how unique it is.

Because, SSBM, in effect, has become a sport.

You say that you have logged your hours, and you have "mastered" them enough to use them effectively. That's great, wonderful, but I don't see your point. The only way to overcome those random slips and mistimings is, guess what, more practice. I don't mean sitting in front of a TV for 8 consecutive hours just practicing techs. If you play more in general, with other people, you'll gradually get more comfortable with said techs. No one said that you had to go through ****ing hell just to be able to use techs consistently.

umm,
That those with an advantage will always defend that advantage.
/shrug, its no big deal, it’s only a natural reaction.
Just as I defend ganon's 4 hit KO combos

So you're going to give me a broad, generalized comment that I can't properly debate against. And you seem to be implying that my status as a Falco is somehow detrimental torwards my stance in this debate. On the contrary, I probably have a more detailed knowledge about techs than you do, just because I play the space animals.

i do agree with you.

just like you i stoped playing because there didnt seem much left to do, then i went through learning techs, and the game got so much faster and more fun.

not everyone can take the time to learn these techs though, thats the beef i have with them.
(i whoop my brother so bad he doesnt even like the game anymore. i tell him to learn the techs and he tells me that he actually has a life)

Then if he doesn't want to put in time and take just a little away from this "life" of his, then he won't improve. It's that simple. You have to make sacrifices. For example, I'm skipping Homecoming to go to NCT:II. Why? I think NCT:II is more improtant, weirdly, than Homecoming. There's always prom for later. But that's my opinion, and not everyone agrees with it. Bottom line is, if you want to get better, you have to put in more time. It doesn't matter how much time you've put in up to this date and how good you currently are; there's always room for improvement.

 

[Zenjamin]

Hydro Kirby,

im sorry to tell you this but it looks like nintento cares more about my little brother then you or me.

thats the whole direction nintendo is going with the wii. get those tho dont game often. let microsoft and sony have the hardcore gamers.

 

[Xin]

i disagree,
its DI, patience, and timing is what allows us to get out of an opponents combos.

I dissagree with this, see here is our side of the deal the contributes to our opponents human error. We DI one way, he sees it but it doesn't register in time and we get out of the combo. There are two parts to human error, everything has to register with the mind in order to eliminate the chance of error, but like I said, it's still there. DI, patience and timing is our part contributing to their error.

As for the videos, I'll have to get back to you, I have to go searching for them on Youtube again.
I will try and find them, cause then you asked for times too xD and i never memorized the times. To make things simple enough though, JGT finals, him vs BS (who I also want to fight) where he messed up on his chain grabs. Say where he went the wrong way or didn't go far enough to grab and BS hit the ground and roled away.

I also probably don't have as much beef with techs because I have learned them gradually over the past 3 years, and did not have to play "catch up" or something, I often teach people about techs after I beat them. So maybe I did log as many hours as other people, just not in such a short time.

 

[Miharu]

Hydro Kirby,

im sorry to tell you this but it looks like nintento cares more about my little brother then you or me.

thats the whole direction nintendo is going with the wii. get those tho dont game often. let microsoft and sony have the hardcore gamers.

That's your opinion.

Nintendo can't be so blind as to alienate the thousands of smashers who take SSBM seriously, like you and I. It'd be pretty shortsighted of them, but that's really their choice. All I can say is, I hope they don't alienate one group while trying to attract another.

 

[cF=)]

Then if he doesn't want to put in time and take just a little away from this "life" of his, then he won't improve.

Why won't he just learn while playing ? Having fun doesn't mean you can't try to L-cancel an attack from time to time ? I don't have a gamecube and still can do advanced tech, so I'm pretty sure anybody who plays around 5 hours a week can get good in less than 3 months...

But oh my god, people will start whining at my post saying "Geez I wanna get good now, make everything easier *emo cry*". To those I say :

- Did Ken got good at this game in 3 months ? I'm sure he learned has much as advanced techs were discovered.

- Don't you think he had all the information disponible to you at that time ? Heck no.

- Does the fact he's the best in the world at this game screwed his life over ? I believe no, he kept on studying and manage to have a normal job like everybody.

So please, don't play the "I have a life" card, because there IS people out there with jobs, girlfriends/boyfriends and degrees. It's the common john for the suckiest players.

 

[Zenjamin]

cF=),
Out of all the people who think things are fine as is...
I agree with you the most.


I have never herd of learning techs being such a casual experience. I have never tried it. Everyone suggests doing it over and over again until it is pounded into your brain.

That’s how I learned it.
Repetition, tedium, boring.

Throughout the whole experience I just wished I was actually playing.


And now you come along and just tell me i could have been doing that???
im not quite sure how to respond.

Part of me wants to throw a rock at you, and part of me wants to give you +rep
I think ill give you +rep just for making me think in a new way.


That doesn’t mean I completely concede, because you might be just a great player, but I am seeing your point.





EDIT:
After thinking it over, I don’t think L-canceling should be very easy, or that wave-dashing should have a button.
cF=)’s idea that techs should take a long time to perfect, but something that is perfected through gameplay, is something that I am jumping on board with.
I think a good compromise would be to have tech performance differentiate based on how well you perform them.

For example,
If you press L either directly after you do an aerial or as you are experiencing the lag, you will only cancel a small fraction of the lag.
But as you press L closer to the target frame, your lag time will lessen.
So if you press L at one exact frame, you will completely cut off the lag. (something that will be very very hard to do.)
This would encourage everyone to get better while letting the scrubs see progressing improvement in their game.
(How much lag would be canceled per frame would be up to the devs.)

What do you think?




p.s. Im sorry if it seemed like I was not open to other ideas and opinions before.

 

[Miharu]

Why won't he just learn while playing ? Having fun doesn't mean you can't try to L-cancel an attack from time to time ? I don't have a gamecube and still can do advanced tech, so I'm pretty sure anybody who plays around 5 hours a week can get good in less than 3 months...

But oh my god, people will start whining at my post saying "Geez I wanna get good now, make everything easier *emo cry*". To those I say :

- Did Ken got good at this game in 3 months ? I'm sure he learned has much as advanced techs were discovered.

- Don't you think he had all the information disponible to you at that time ? Heck no.

- Does the fact he's the best in the world at this game screwed his life over ? I believe no, he kept on studying and manage to have a normal job like everybody.

So please, don't play the "I have a life" card, because there IS people out there with jobs, girlfriends/boyfriends and degrees. It's the common john for the suckiest players.

Yeah, I agree with you completely, cF. My part about putting in time was directed at those who complain that techs are too hard, and yet they've put in little to no time at all.

This has been a really great discussion; it's made me think in a new fashion. I do have to admit that the most efficient way to learn techs does involve just sitting down and doing a few hours of boring repetition. But after that point, the process becomes much smoother.

I'm off to play SSBM now. I'll check back here in a few hours or so XD

 

[Xin]

I agree with cF as well, I am in college now, and I am away from my core group of SSBM friends who play as well as I do. I came to college and found some people who liked playing the game and taught them new thing while playing matches with them. They were having a blast and now are on a competitive level. We still have loads of fun playing but now they use techs almost as well as I do and constantly give me a run for my money now. Having fun while learning is the best way to learn, you don't get as fustrated and you are still having a blast.

 

[BearBoy]

Hmm I think all of us can agree that making the game less technical would neasily split the community in two. People often dont like change but its nessacarry for progress the question is will this progress lead to innovation or disaster.

 

[Drake_Miriel]

The way I see it, the technical skills are what makes the game usable on the competitive level people here play on. There's no point in dumbing down the game, as the casual players aren't effected by it. If they want to master wavedashing and that, let them, butg there's no point in taking out something because a couple people don't want to spend time learning them.

 

[Xx GuNz xX]

The way I see it, the technical skills are what makes the game usable on the competitive level people here play on. There's no point in dumbing down the game, as the casual players aren't effected by it. If they want to master wavedashing and that, let them, butg there's no point in taking out something because a couple people don't want to spend time learning them.

I totally agree with you 110%

 

[cF=)]

For example,
If you press L either directly after you do an aerial or as you are experiencing the lag, you will only cancel a small fraction of the lag.
But as you press L closer to the target frame, your lag time will lessen.
So if you press L at one exact frame, you will completely cut off the lag. (something that will be very very hard to do.)
This would encourage everyone to get better while letting the scrubs see progressing improvement in their game.
(How much lag would be canceled per frame would be up to the devs.)

As much as I like the idea, the basics of L-cancelling is because you pull your shield at the same time your hitting the floor. I know you would like to higher the frame window where you can stop the lag of an aerial, but it would result in air dodging. Or even worse, not being able to air dodge that near to the ground could cut off wavedash. =/

I guess the best option is to show it directly in the game. I would like to see a real "How to play video" in the intro of SSBB where you get to learn short-hoping, L-cancelling, wavedash and pretty much the basics of the game. I wouldn't like to see the complete AHTP (even though it's a GREAT video for starter), but simply an intro to advanced gaming. That way, nobody would say "I didn't knew this was possible" because it would be showed in-game and hit the mainstream.

I like how this discussion is reaching somehow a common way of thinking. Continue to give your opinions, I'm certainly not 100% right.

 

[Zenjamin]

If you like the idea, that is all that matters.

ssbb is going to be a whole new game.
Nintendo has already said it will have a new aerial element and that they will moderate speed.
That alone is enough to change the mechanics of the game enough that it should be easy to fix the problems you mentioned.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Hydro Kirby:

When Jiggs misses the rest, it's always lasers, drillshine, wavedash to grab, uthrow uair.

This is what makes wavedashing broken. When you have set knockback moves like the shine that can always be linked into a grab via wavedash, the game gets broken.

Xin:

You are correct. Maybe I was thinking in terms of a utopian video game where all technical skill is only based on what your opponent does. However we as gamers need to be imperfect in order to play a perfect game. Once perfection is achieved there is no longer a game, it simply becomes a stalemate or things are left to random chance.

However I still feel that the current system can be improved based on the points I brought up earlier about how wall teching, Smash DI, etc... are better technical aspects of Smash then l-canceling and wavedashing.

 

[BearBoy]

The way I see it, the technical skills are what makes the game usable on the competitive level people here play on. There's no point in dumbing down the game, as the casual players aren't effected by it. If they want to master wavedashing and that, let them, butg there's no point in taking out something because a couple people don't want to spend time learning them.

Amazingly well put

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Amazingly well put

I think that's a horrible arguement, personally. Very subjective.

Xin and Hydro Kirby are the ones who have convinced me that technicality isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'd prefer to see different kinds of techs and less techs that are absolutely necessary to be competitive. Wavedashing is completely optional, so is dash dancing. Granted they aren't very hard, but these I don't mind having in SSBM.

Someone said earlier, the only thing about l-cancelling I don't like is that l-cancelling is absolutely necessary in order to compete where as the other advanced techs, help your game, but aren't completely necessary.

I'm not saying l-cancelling is bad, but just I'd prefer to see more advanced techs that would be character specific or simply optional. Wavedashing is something that is a bit more character specific. A character like Ice Climbers completely relies on wavedashing, but someone like Peach it's optional to use merely as a spacing tool.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

This is personal opinion, please do not speak as though everyone agrees that learning this is not fun. I had alot of fun learning them, though learning how to apply them was a bit more difficult.

Whoa. It's just amazing when you get the occasional intelligent post haha jk guys. I had a lot of fun learning these advanced techs, and so did my friends when I showed it to them, with the exception of 2 of them, who simply:

a) aren't that interested in the game anyway
b) don't really see the usefullness
c) haven't the timing/precision needed to perform them (which by the way is not much)
d) were far less able than I was when techs were still unknown to us

The converse of this is that people who have fun learning these techs are:

a) people who are interested in the game
b) understand the potential in advanced techs
c) have the timing/precision to perform them (which by the way, is not much)
d) are at a certain skill level even before techs.

Some people may disagree with me on this, but the above appears to be good criteria for those who should be priveliged enough to use advanced techniques.

=]

w00t 600th post!

 

[Miharu]

Hydro Kirby:

When Jiggs misses the rest, it's always lasers, drillshine, wavedash to grab, uthrow uair.

This is what makes wavedashing broken. When you have set knockback moves like the shine that can always be linked into a grab via wavedash, the game gets broken.

Jigglypuff can't be waveshined. Nor can you waveshine -> grab, since it falls down after you shine it.

And when a Jigglypuff misses a rest, you usually laser it as much as possible, then usmash for the kill.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Jigglypuff can't be waveshined. Nor can you waveshine -> grab, since it falls down after you shine it.

And when a Jigglypuff misses a rest, you usually laser it as much as possible, then usmash for the kill.

Well that's really odd, because I remember reading something in the forums, to which multiple Jiggs players said why Fox ***** Jiggs at the upper levels. I remember TheMagus spoke about the horrid lasers -> drillshine -> grab -> uthrow -> uair combo that just destroys Jiggs, especially at places with low ceilings.

But anyway it seems the moderators have cleaned the character specific forums, so I can't find the thread anymore.

So for now I will not argue this unless I can find a video.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Rest assured that *jigglypuff cannot be waveshined* be cause she falls over. that means you can't drillshine-waveshine-uthrow uair. Trust me. And the waveshining isn't tooo bad, you don't see everyone grumbling at the competitive level because they think a fox is going to waveshine them.

 

[NG7]

Multiple Jiggs players said why Fox ***** Jiggs at the upper levels. I remember TheMagus spoke about the horrid lasers -> drillshine -> grab -> uthrow -> uair combo that just destroys Jiggs, especially at places with low ceilings.

I believe in the FC3 EC vs WC Ken does laser > drill > grab> uthrow > uair on KillaOR. There's no shine.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

I believe in the FC3 EC vs WC Ken does laser > drill > grab> uthrow > uair on KillaOR. There's no shine.

Oh thanks. That makes more sense now.