Should SDs be so harsh?

[Dan Salvato]

Based on some discussion from the Alternate Rule Set thread, I've been thinking about the consequences of an SD and whether those consequences are justified.

If you SD, you're likely to put yourself in a huge disadvantage, and it will likely determine the outcome of the match. An SD in a neck-and-neck battle will cause you to be two-stocked (opponent would win without the SD) or one-stocked (you would win without the SD). If you SD, you are essentially forcing yourself to two-stock your opponent, because you cannot use your last stock.

The question is, does the SDing player DESERVE to be extremely disadvantaged for it? In my opinion, no. Here's why:

• An SD can be caused by the slightest mistake in button input or timing. Screwed up your wavedash edgeguard? You lose a stock. Tiny input mistakes should not be punished so harshly; they should merely give the opponent a momentary advantage such that is it up to the opponent to successfully punish. In a non-SD situation, that is what happens.
• SDs are almost completely random. Messing up an input center-stage vs. left-stage makes all the difference, and your stage positioning is coincidence. I've seen waveshining Foxes accidentally sideB instead of downB, and whether or not it leads to an SD is totally random, depending on stage position. Such randomness should not lead to one player being enormously disadvantaged.
• The SD potential of different characters is also very random. It's unfair for some characters to be more prone to SDing (Link, DK, Falcon) as opposed to others (Peach, Jiggs, Samus) when the punishment is so harsh. I can stand to be punished by my opponent for an input error, but to lose my entire stock in a case where many other characters wouldn't have (eg. by using the wrong aerial) is disheartening.

This isn't the thread to discuss Cactuar's ruleset, but it is an example of a ruleset in which SDs aren't as harsh as they currently are, since a match loss is not as harsh. As another point, less harsh SDs would likely result in players taking some really cool and interesting risks that we currently don't see.

 

[Comrade]

Back in my day, you just accepted the fact that you screwed up and played better.

 

[1048576]

what's the difference between side-'B'ing next to the edge and side-'B'ing into a wobble?

 

[Dan Salvato]

what's the difference between side-'B'ing next to the edge and side-'B'ing into a wobble?

The difference is that it's up to your opponent to punish you as opposed to automatic death with no effort by the opponent.

 

[a nub]

you can't call sds random though, they're usually avoidable mistakes except for a couple janky situations

 

[ranmaru]

If it were down to two stock, and you SD'd, I'd guess you would have to be ALOT better than the opponent to be able to bring it back... Or maybe not. I dunno.

 

[Shadow Huan]

except for some weird edge gliches causing deaths that shouldn't happen (*glares at Battlefield*) SDs are entirely the player's fault and they should just accept the results of the SD and play better the next stock\match to make up for it. Watch Kage vs PC Chris Apex 2012 for an excellent example of what i'm talking about

 

[Supreme Dirt]

lmao dumb thread. If you SD you made a mistake. A bad one. It's no different then being Peach and accidentally throwing a Bob-Omb down. It's your own fault and you need to take responsibility for your mistake.

 

[Kal]

Back in my day, you just accepted the fact that you screwed up and played better.

 

[Gea]

You can still cancel the side B. Plus it's not like space animals need special considerations. Even with the increased risk of side B they still flood brackets.

 

[Divinokage]

If it were down to two stock, and you SD'd, I'd guess you would have to be ALOT better than the opponent to be able to bring it back... Or maybe not. I dunno.

It's easier to comeback 1 stock then to comeback 2 stocks deficit, obviously.

SDs might give you a damaged mindset while the opponent might have a better mindset, though that's more case by case, it depends on the player. I mean I did win vs Hax despite having SDed at 12% one game while he was at low %.

 

[The Tycon]

An SD is a death.
Why should gimps be so rewarding? Both of them significantly turn the tables in a match, both can be avoided, and everything based on your character is under your control. You should know the consequences of a mistake will be in any situation. If somebody wants to reduce their risk of an SD(or gimp), they should play safer while near the ledges.
It might seem unfair that some characters SD more than others, but every character has their pros and cons(for the most part).

 

[JPOBS]

Not every SD boils down to "just get better". I hate it when people act like SD's are always the player's fault.

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEBB3A1-ae4#t=4m18s

I don't think anyone should expect S2j to:
1. know that tope's dash attack would push him off the stage
2. know that the slide off would cancel his jump and therefore
3. stop himself within a split second from doing a FREE dair OOS combo that would have worked on literally any other pixel on the screen.

SD's aren't always falco side b'ing off the stage or messing up a waveland. And everytime someone says "derp just play better u scrub" I shake my head at this community.

edit: I'm not arguing that SDs shouldn't be harsh. I'm just showing another side of the matter.

 

[Wobbles]

So... what do you propose be done about this?

Killing yourself shouldn't... kill yourself? I'm not sure I understand. Obviously it's not technically balanced that some characters SD more easily than others, but there's often a tradeoff inherent in this; Fox and Falco have a side+b that makes them prone to SD'ing, but it also gives them a solid recovery mixup. Peach and Puff are hard to SD with, but that's part of being hella floaty, which makes them easier to KO off the top.

Some mistakes are worse than others. Sometimes the only punish somebody gets on you is a weak n-air out of shield; sometimes it's a 0-death chaingrab. It's a natural consequence of errors taking place in different situations.

And yes, I do expect S2J to be aware of his options in that scenario and not do the one that kills himself. When you're at the edge you need to be wary of being pushed off when you shield or CC. It's a thing you have to deal with in a game that has edges. Play and think a bit differently near them.

 

[Warhawk]

except for some weird edge gliches causing deaths that shouldn't happen (*glares at Battlefield*) SDs are entirely the player's fault and they should just accept the results of the SD and play better the next stock\match to make up for it. Watch Kage vs PC Chris Apex 2012 for an excellent example of what i'm talking about

SDs are entirely the players fault and at high level play you should have enough control over your character that SDs rarely come out to disadvantage you in a match. I agree with you that its on the player to prevent themselves from being disadvantaged by SDs, not the rules. I don't agree with your statement about battlefield however. Getting "battlefielded" is not a glitch. Even though the ledge looks like it should save you in some situations and doesn't the situations when that occurs are consistent and playing enough on the stage you can learn how to avoid them, so even getting "battlefielded" is still on the player.

 

[leffen]

LOL, how is that not S2Js fault?


I ****ing HATE when people think that things like that are "luck", or when they complain that they were unlucky because they got a phantom (when its actually the person who got hit that should complain) or when shield pokes are luck... sheesh.


getting "battlefielded" is the same thing as doing a runoff nair with shiek on YS and dieing because you couldnt jump >_>
learn the stages and you'll never get battlefielded.

 

[Mr Postman]

Back in my day, you just accepted the fact that you screwed up and played better.

Back in my day, you just accepted the fact that you screwed up and played better.

Back in the day, you just accepted the fact... that... wait, what the heck kinda BS ruleset is this?

 

[ajp_anton]

Please don't try to add more rules to help the worse player so that everyone wins. We already have Brawl for that.

 

[The Star King]

Lol @ SDs being "almost completely random"

 

[Charlesz]

lmao dumb thread. If you SD you made a mistake. A bad one. It's no different then being Peach and accidentally throwing a Bob-Omb down. It's your own fault and you need to take responsibility for your mistake.

Agreed. This is a ******* thread. Learn to play better. How would you compensate for the "unfair" sd's.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Is this thread... serious?

 

[Warhawk]

Please don't try to add more rules to help the worse player so that everyone wins. We already have Brawl for that.

Kinda want to sig this lol.

 

[KrIsP!]

An SD is an SD...you died and you lost a life, it's sad but it's your fault so just dust yourself off and get on the other player.

What else is there to say, Cactuar's ruleset would have made it so that if you SD you lose 1/7 of the set instead of possibly 1/3 but you have less of a chance at winning the match with 2 stocks instead of 4. Either way you get punished in different ways, the ruleset just changes how you can make a come back, lose a small amount and the set and use a counter pick or lose one stock out of 4 and still have a pretty good chance at making a comeback.

If you ask me this question should have just been posed in the alternate ruleset thread since it's directly correlated and already had people discussing this question.

 

[Citizen Snips]

So what if I mess up my dash dance and get tipper f-smashed offstage by a Marth? I'm almost guaranteed dead at that point. Should I be forgiven for this?

This game is based entirely off of capitalizing on your opponents mistakes. SDs are just at the top of the list for severity. That doesn't make them eligible for special consideration.

 

[Gea]

Should I be forgiven for this?

Only if you were playing low tier, obviously.

 

[Kal]

New rule: any time Kal takes damage, loses a stock, or coughs, it's luck and the opponent must do the same. Don't ask how we're going to handle the damage part.

 

[Planet Piss]

****-ups are a part of life. If you fell off the stage because you messed up a WL, then learn to WL better. Side B off the edge? Don't do it again. Break your arm snowboarding? Either stop snowboarding, or learn from your mistakes. Don't ask the ski resort to make softer snow. Honestly, I really don't see why we even need to discuss this.

Even if you think that SDs shouldn't be as disadvantageous, what do you propose we do? Turn on time mode and make it so that SDs don't count as a stock? Create some kind of extra-game half-stock feature? There is really no alternative to accepting one's faults and improving so that they don't happen anymore.

And @ the S2J example: You joking? He shielded right next to the edge. He should have known that a strong enough attack would result in him sliding off the edge, and react as such. He could have taken his hand off the analog and fell onto the ledge as opposed to ostensibly screwing up a c-stick spot dodge (or whatever he tried to do).

 

[The Tycon]

Let's do an "eye for an eye" ruleset.
Everything that happens to one competitor or team has to happen to the other side.

 

[ajajayjay]

I don't think you posted any kind of solution or idea, just complaints.

EDIT: directed at OP.

 

[Wake]

Oh me oh my. This thread seems hilarious to me. An SD is pretty much your fault. If you think you're more prone to SDing with a certain character, then pick someone else. I don't even know what would be done about this... character insurance? Get Allstate.

 

[KevinM]

Back in Leffen's day he got bodied by Jman.




Also SD's should be punished HARDER imo, like if you SD your opponent should be able to call your mother a name and slap you for screwing up.

 

[Kal]

I think he should be able to just slap your mother. But that might be too harsh.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Only if you were playing low tier, obviously.

Captain Falcon is a low tier, obvs


Also, this is the perfect time to segue into my discussion on the new metagame: Punching your opponent in the **** when he does something to you in the match.

 

[Xelyst]

This thread is redicolous...

ajp said what needed to be said

as for s2j vs tope

over analyzing that situation is fruitless.... s2j sd'd.. weather he missed an input.. misjudged the positioning.. was not aware..

not a good idea to start an s2j vs game mechanics... who's fault was it type of an example

not the fist time i've seen a ffer try to dair punish and forcefully be pushed off > sd

**** like that does happen... but to say that s2j was not responsible (input/choice/positioning/awareness) poses a fruitless argument altogether..

edit: of course wobbles of all players would be aware of being forced onto/off the edge =p

 

[Avalancer]

I don't even know what would be done about this... character insurance?

oh god lol

SDs usually are the cause of being too reckless in combos. I usually suicide when I spam blaster while falling, I land on a platform while moving forward without noticing and Side B offstage. Wavedash to edgehog is too mainstream anyway, dsmash all the way

 

[t3h Icy]

So I guess the next stagelist will only be G&W's Break the Targets?

 

[Dark Hart]

Besides getting battlefielded

Sounds like tons of johns

 

[Jolteon]

When someone SDs, you should restart the game. You should also give the person who SDs a bunch of flowers to cheer them up, poor people.

 

[Beat!]

"Besides"? Getting battlefielded is your own fault entirely, so I don't understand why that would be an exception.

Also, I think we should implement Kal's rule.

And Jolteon's.



... this thread was a joke, right?

 

[Veetaak]

You **** up, you die.

This game is not holding your hand with invisible walls to stop you from SDing and it's nothing wrong to have it that way.