Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[1048576]

If I were god of tournies, I'd give the victory for tied stock, tied percent to whomever has the worst controller port priority.

 

[TheFast]

Of course, but you'd need to be hit to the ledge 11 times to go over the limit. Which means that you would break their shield 11 times, so in theory, this would only happen if you were really, really, bad at killing people with broken shields.

Also, you'd need to get hit to the ledge over once every 40 seconds or so, and then you'd spend 20 seconds back on stage. Regardless of whether its safe or not, you're still taking up half of the total match time getting up onto the ledge, which is IMPOSSIBLE for ANYONE who's going to legitly win a tournament. The ONLY way you could possibly be knocked off and pressured that much is if you were playing Fast Brawl.

First of all during the act of actual planking you can get to 70 ledge grabs easy under a minute and 40 seconds or so. I you play smart when getting back from the edge you can end up grabing the ledge many of times waiting for the one opportunity when your opponets either messes up or let the pressure down for it to be safe for you to recover.

Not if lets say the Dedede choices to take 6 hits and lets say 7 break it (Not sure on the actual numbers but i think this is close). 6 ledge grabs out of 70 is alot for the short ammount of time it happens. It is not planking. Its is not "broken". You dont get sheild breaks. But this legitimate strategy, which is a fumdamintal concept of my playing style will now be limited to no control of my own. How is this a fair concept?

I admit it is would be very hard to get over 70 ledge grabs without planking by I stand by the fact that anything can happen. Rare situations paired with certain characters and play styles can lead to very weird evens and the tought that a character who has good options come off the ledge will now be limited to some extent. By my understanding Kirby cant even really plank, yet this new ledge grab stuff is going to limit he options when getting back to the stage. If something is broken you should take the broken thing out, not make a sugestive rule that limits a whole section of some peoples play styles AND not directly eliminate the broken tactic.

While im on the Anti-ban side, i bieleve if it is concidered "broken" than just ban it. Dont bring up this stupid crap like a ledge grab limit. While the ledge grab limite can be evidence to support claims of Planking at any giving tourney there should be enough witnesses to verify claims or at least depict what happened to an elicted offical.

 

[Lotopius]

I don't get why this conversation is taking place...

According to the official rules, any form of stalling is banned, right?
Planking is a form of stalling.
So logically planking is banned.

Am I missing something?

 

[TheFast]

Planking cannot be defined as stalling because you are not putting yourself in an unreachiable situation, just a very difficult situation to get around for certain characters.

 

[Falconv1.0]

How many times do others and I have to point out that you aren't technically stalling.

In plank vs SK92 after hitting SK92 he went back to the edge. Whoop dee ****, he's running away, he's going back to a safe position, sounds more like camping than stalling to me.

I swear stuff like this just doesn't happen in shooters, because every other community outside of Brawl have their heads screwed on right. Say in TF2, I play Demo, and I'm in the sewers of 2fort. There's a soldier headed my way so I throw a nade at him and run to heal up because there's ammo/health at the little intersection in the sewers. I can either camp in there forever or approach him. He can totally choose to approach me and hurt me, but is at risk of being hit by a trap. I'm not stalling, I'm camping in a safer position. And I should note while camping like this I've been ***** hard.




tl;dr-Planking is camping, stop whining.

 

[LewsTherin]

TF2 is balanced, unlike smash.

I don't see why anyone would want a technique that when used put's your enemy in a favourable position where regardless of your skill you are at a disadvantage.

 

[LoyalSoldier]

How many times do others and I have to point out that you aren't technically stalling.

In plank vs SK92 after hitting SK92 he went back to the edge. Whoop dee ****, he's running away, he's going back to a safe position, sounds more like camping than stalling to me.

I swear stuff like this just doesn't happen in shooters, because every other community outside of Brawl have their heads screwed on right. Say in TF2, I play Demo, and I'm in the sewers of 2fort. There's a soldier headed my way so I throw a nade at him and run to heal up because there's ammo/health at the little intersection in the sewers. I can either camp in there forever or approach him. He can totally choose to approach me and hurt me, but is at risk of being hit by a trap. I'm not stalling, I'm camping in a safer position. And I should note while camping like this I've been ***** hard.




tl;dr-Planking is camping, stop whining.

The reason shooters don't have the same issues is because shooters often have no distinguishable difference between player characters and everyone has access to the same tools at any given time. Also most standard tourney maps are symmetrical.

Although most of the problems with shooters are easily taken care. They usually deal with certain weapons being too powerful for competitive play.

 

[Manic_1]

How many times do others and I have to point out that you aren't technically stalling.

In plank vs SK92 after hitting SK92 he went back to the edge. Whoop dee ****, he's running away, he's going back to a safe position, sounds more like camping than stalling to me.

I swear stuff like this just doesn't happen in shooters, because every other community outside of Brawl have their heads screwed on right. Say in TF2, I play Demo, and I'm in the sewers of 2fort. There's a soldier headed my way so I throw a nade at him and run to heal up because there's ammo/health at the little intersection in the sewers. I can either camp in there forever or approach him. He can totally choose to approach me and hurt me, but is at risk of being hit by a trap. I'm not stalling, I'm camping in a safer position. And I should note while camping like this I've been ***** hard.




tl;dr-Planking is camping, stop whining.

so what happens if both players are a equal percentages, and are both planking and do so for the rest of the match?

 

[illinialex24]

so what happens if both players are a equal percentages, and are both planking and do so for the rest of the match?

Then you likely do a sudden death or repeat the match based on the tournament. But thats very rare.

 

[Cowbox]

A ledge-grab limit is an awful way to solve the situation.

If planking is so broken that people feel the need to limit the times you grab an edge to 70, then clearly the best solution is to only grab it 69 times. There's nothing stopping someone from doing that.

 

[Mattsy]

Let's all look at the title.

Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

(i.e. Ledgestalling)

Ledgestalling

Ledgestalling

 

[Firestormzero0]

Judge Ruling is the way to go. Ledge limit would be pretty dumb.

 

[HiddenBowser]

so what happens if both players are a equal percentages, and are both planking and do so for the rest of the match?

Then you likely do a sudden death or repeat the match based on the tournament. But thats very rare.

You don't do a sudden death ever... you generally do a 1 stock game on the same stage.

A ledge-grab limit is an awful way to solve the situation.

If planking is so broken that people feel the need to limit the times you grab an edge to 70, then clearly the best solution is to only grab it 69 times. There's nothing stopping someone from doing that.

except the ease of messing up your counting or have to recover to the edge more times than expected after you stop planking. And yeah, people could do it, but it would drastically limit the time someone could plank for, making it so you could sit and wait on stage for that amount of time to be up.

Let's all look at the title.

lol, just because the thread creator thinks it's stalling doesn't mean it is.

It's not stalling because the point is for the other person to have to fight against you being on the edge, not to run out time... time only runs out if the player on stage gives up and refuses to fight, letting time run out, letting the person on the edge have no chance of winning, which doesn't make much sense.

 

[illinialex24]

You don't do a sudden death ever... you generally do a 1 stock game on the same stage.

Its happened before in tournaments from what I've heard, its just not generally done.

 

[Cowbox]

except the ease of messing up your counting or have to recover to the edge more times than expected after you stop planking. And yeah, people could do it, but it would drastically limit the time someone could plank for, making it so you could sit and wait on stage for that amount of time to be up.

Doesn't really matter. If planking is so amazing that it needs to be limited, people will do it as much as they can. They will learn to keep count and do their best to avoid the edge when recovering. You give people that leeway and they will push it as much as they can.

The only true options are the leave it alone or ban it outright. There is no good middle ground.

 

[Firestormzero0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms1lX6lCzqY

 

[Mattsy]

Pardon my language, but do you have half a brain? lol, just because the thread creator thinks it's stalling doesn't mean it is.

It's not stalling because the point is for the other person to have to fight against you being on the edge, not to run out time... time only runs out if the player on stage gives up and refuses to fight, letting time run out, letting the person on the edge have no chance of winning, which doesn't make much sense.

Internet insults, looooool

So when people use planking to stall, it's not stalling because it's planking?

The video in the first post displays planking starting as a stalling technique to run the clock down, really, but it caused the Falco to try an attack and was easily killed due to the awesome position the planker had put himself in by planking.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Doesn't really matter. If planking is so amazing that it needs to be limited, people will do it as much as they can. They will learn to keep count and do their best to avoid the edge when recovering. You give people that leeway and they will push it as much as they can.

The only true options are the leave it alone or ban it outright. There is no good middle ground.

True, they'll learn, but it makes it much much less effective, and it's really difficult to ban it out right because of bias. This way has no TO bias (and there will ALWAYS be bias, no matter what, if people have to use discretion)... and isn't being able to plank for basically no longer than a couple minutes much much better than being able to plank for the entire match?

 

[HiddenBowser]

Internet insults, looooool

So when people use planking to stall, it's not stalling because it's planking?

The video in the first post displays planking starting as a stalling technique to run the clock down, really, but it caused the Falco to try an attack and was easily killed due to the awesome position the planker had put himself in by planking.

You attempted to make people look stupid by enlarging your quote and posting it multiple times, which makes me think that you don't really know how to think things through and thus only have half a brain... no insults were said, I was actually asking if you knew how to think using logic. Now to respond to your post...

You always have the option of approaching or not approaching. If player A stood at one end of the stage, waiting for player B to come, and then hit B over and over when they approached, then B may stop approaching. If they're both standing there, then A who originally started waiting isn't stalling, he's just waiting for B to approach. Planking is basically that same thing with A chilling on the edge waiting for B to approach. If B never approaches, time runs out and A wins, forcing B to approach... therefore, not stalling... just a broken strategy.

edit: dammit, I was expecting someone else to post between mine... sorry for the double post.

 

[Cowbox]

If anything, I'd have to say judge ruling. Have someone overseeing the match at all times and give them a warning if they start showing agressive signs of planking. If they continue, they forfeit the match.

I don't like the idea of "Planking is very powerful, but we're still going to allow you to do it -- just not for as long." Suddenly people realize "This tactic is so amazing that they have to keep it under check. I should practice it." Encouraging people is not a good idea. Discourage them as much as you can. Allow them to play around the edge without fear of running over some arbitrary number times you're allowed to grab it but stop them from such henious actions.

 

[HiddenBowser]

If anything, I'd have to say judge ruling. Have someone overseeing the match at all times and give them a warning if they start showing agressive signs of planking. If they continue, they forfeit the match.

I don't like the idea of "Planking is very powerful, but we're still going to allow you to do it -- just not for as long." Suddenly people realize "This tactic is so amazing that they have to keep it under check. I should practice it." Encouraging people is not a good idea. Discourage them as much as you can. Allow them to play around the edge without fear of running over some arbitrary number times you're allowed to grab it but stop them from such henious actions.

The problem with judge ruling is that different judges have different opinions of planking. For instance, sometimes I'm stuck on the edge trying to get off, and with my opponent pressuring me, it could take some time. Now normally I'm not on the edge, but in some cases I could be there for a good 10 seconds just trying to get off. Some judges would be perfectly fine with it, others could force me to get off, putting me in a bad position to get hit. They're just no way of keeping it standard everywhere...

And plus, the judge can't be watching every game at once, it would make a huge hassle, and what happens if 2 people need to be watched at once. When the judge leaves to check on the other, you could plank for a bit while he's gone. And you can't just pause the game mid play.

Next time you're playing, look at the number of times you grab the edge. If you're playing normal, you shouldn't have any problems with coming close to it. Generally when I play, I have somewhere around 15 ledge grabs, and that's with on average 6 minute games. I timed thrzy out with retreating to and playing on the edge a lot (no planking involved) with 39 grabs. I've also timed SamuraiPanda's snake out with only 9 ledge grabs. So it's really hard to get to 50 as long as you're not playing on norfair or somewhere with lots of ledges.

 

[Mattsy]

You attempted to make people look stupid by enlarging your quote and posting it multiple times, which makes me think that you don't really know how to think things through and thus only have half a brain... no insults were said, I was actually asking if you knew how to think using logic. Now to respond to your post...

You always have the option of approaching or not approaching. If player A stood at one end of the stage, waiting for player B to come, and then hit B over and over when they approached, then B may stop approaching. If they're both standing there, then A who originally started waiting isn't stalling, he's just waiting for B to approach. Planking is basically that same thing with A chilling on the edge waiting for B to approach. If B never approaches, time runs out and A wins, forcing B to approach... therefore, not stalling... just a broken strategy.

edit: dammit, I was expecting someone else to post between mine... sorry for the double post.

I didn't attempt to make anyone stupid. Jesus, calm down.

I pretty much skipped to where you said "just a broken strategy". It's pretty much putting yourself in an almost untouchable situation and forcing them to jump into the ****, whilst at least not running away to pull it back from the boundaries of being stalling.

 

[HiddenBowser]

I didn't attempt to make anyone stupid. Jesus, calm down.

I pretty much skipped to where you said "just a broken strategy". It's pretty much putting yourself in an almost untouchable situation and forcing them to jump into the ****, whilst at least not running away to pull it back from the boundaries of being stalling.

Your intentions don't really matter. Posting like that makes others look stupid. Doesn't matter if your right or wrong or if you tried to do it or not. Think next time or I'm gonna ask you if you know how to.

You're definitely forcing them to jump into the ****... that doesn't mean it's stalling... If you're not willing to read my argument, get out of here and stop trolling this thread.

 

[Cowbox]

The only thing I'd have to suggest then is "more judges". Lame, I know, and planking would clearly be subjective from judge to judge, but I don't like the middle ground. I'm sure nobody comes close to grabbing the edge fifty times in one match, but I don't feel like limiting this is good enough. It leaves the door too open.

There's really not much more I can say without just repeating myself. Allow people to do it and they'll abuse it, but there's really no way to moderate it.

 

[Mattsy]

Your intentions don't really matter. Posting like that makes others look stupid. Doesn't matter if your right or wrong or if you tried to do it or not. Think next time or I'm gonna ask you if you know how to.

You're definitely forcing them to jump into the ****... that doesn't mean it's stalling... If you're not willing to read my argument, get out of here and stop trolling this thread.

No one's going to cry because someone made them look stupid on the internet. Chill.

Also lol trolling. I consider it stalling because half the time it's used to stall. Ie, to run down the clock.

 

[HiddenBowser]

The only thing I'd have to suggest then is "more judges". Lame, I know, and planking would clearly be subjective from judge to judge, but I don't like the middle ground. I'm sure nobody comes close to grabbing the edge fifty times in one match, but I don't feel like limiting this is good enough. It leaves the door too open.

There's really not much more I can say without just repeating myself. Allow people to do it and they'll abuse it, but there's really no way to moderate it.

yeah, it's a tricky situation. I just think middle ground > no ban, and I think full ban is too impossible to reach with a consistent basis.

No one's going to cry because someone made them look stupid on the internet. Chill.

lol, sounds like you might cry

Also lol trolling. I consider it stalling because half the time it's used to stall. Ie, to run down the clock.

It only runs out time because the player on stage gives up and stops trying to hit them off the edge. It's the player on the stages fault that time runs out, not the player on the edge.

 

[HiddenBowser]

**** double post... I suck at this :/

 

[Mattsy]

lol, sounds like you might cry

I'm a big boy, I can handle it.

It only runs out time because the player on stage gives up and stops trying to hit them off the edge. It's the player on the stages fault that time runs out, not the player on the edge.

Yeah, if they didn't do that they'd get ***** as they tried to hit them, and the timer wouldn't run out because they'd die a lot quicker.

Your best hope vs planking is to try to maintain a higher percentage than your opponent in a lot of cases.

 

[Pep1to]

Lol at the Mks voting against.

 

[RP`]

A ledge-grab limit is an awful way to solve the situation.

If planking is so broken that people feel the need to limit the times you grab an edge to 70, then clearly the best solution is to only grab it 69 times. There's nothing stopping someone from doing that.

Doesn't really matter. If planking is so amazing that it needs to be limited, people will do it as much as they can. They will learn to keep count and do their best to avoid the edge when recovering. You give people that leeway and they will push it as much as they can.

The only true options are the leave it alone or ban it outright. There is no good middle ground.

The ledge grab rule isn't meant to counter planking, it is meant to limit it. People can still plank, but they can't do it for an entire, or even half, the match as they are able to now. If you exceed the limit, you lose. If it is set to 55 grabs per match for the rule, and you grab it 54 times, then it will be very hard to keep track of how many times you do it, and you can't guarantee you won't grab the ledge again. So relying on one less ledge grab is very stupid, IMO. Sure, you can try to do it 45 times in one match, but that is limiting your planking a lot, which is the point of the ledge grab rule.

 

[nevershootme]

look in the case of pit too... if that can't be considered planking... video dates back to september before plank's video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF3BfiNxpiU

 

[ShadowLink84]

look in the case of pit too... if that can't be considered planking... video dates back to september before plank's video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF3BfiNxpiU

The case of Pit is i which he places himself ina situation that you an counter more easily.
int he case of MK, there arent many characters capable for dealing with planking. Pit takes much longer to grab the ledge, in comparison to MK, and is more vulnerable.


Of course it doesnt matter for me, I use a character with a spring.

 

[Cowbox]

I acknowledge that it would be hard to keep track of how many times you grab the edge and that it may not be the brightest of ideas to try, but I'm just saying that allowing people to still do it would practically be encouraging them to do it as much as they can. Just because it's limited doesn't mean people aren't going to try. They will save the planking for opportune moments.

I propose a softban -- something they do in Japan in various games from time to time. You don't ban the strategy outright; it's just highly frowned upon. Encourage people not to do it because the game is just more interesting without it.

EDIT: And yes, I know, this isn't perfect and probably won't work, but I just don't feel like limiting it is going to solve the problem.

 

[nevershootme]

I acknowledge that it would be hard to keep track of how many times you grab the edge and that it may not be the brightest of ideas to try, but I'm just saying that allowing people to still do it would practically be encouraging them to do it as much as they can. Just because it's limited doesn't mean people aren't going to try. They will save the planking for opportune moments.

I propose a softban -- something they do in Japan in various games from time to time. You don't ban the strategy outright; it's just highly frowned upon. Encourage people not to do it because the game is just more interesting without it.

EDIT: And yes, I know, this isn't perfect and probably won't work, but I just don't feel like limiting it is going to solve the problem.

see the problem with softban is that this is america, attitudes are different completely between america and japan. if one is frowned upon, they'll still do it

 

[Eddie G]

see the problem with softban is that this is america, attitudes are different completely between america and japan. if one is frowned upon, they'll still do it

Because we're *******s by nature it would seem.

 

[Hylian]

I acknowledge that it would be hard to keep track of how many times you grab the edge and that it may not be the brightest of ideas to try, but I'm just saying that allowing people to still do it would practically be encouraging them to do it as much as they can. Just because it's limited doesn't mean people aren't going to try. They will save the planking for opportune moments.

I propose a softban -- something they do in Japan in various games from time to time. You don't ban the strategy outright; it's just highly frowned upon. Encourage people not to do it because the game is just more interesting without it.

EDIT: And yes, I know, this isn't perfect and probably won't work, but I just don't feel like limiting it is going to solve the problem.

We live in America, not Japan. That generally doesn't work when the scene is huge.

I wonder how many people that voted actually even have experience against someone good that planks?

 

[Cowbox]

Just throwing ideas out there.

Personally I think every option (Including softban.) is stupid and won't work.

 

[PK-ow!]

Your intentions don't really matter. Posting like that makes others look stupid. Doesn't matter if your right or wrong or if you tried to do it or not. Think next time or I'm gonna ask you if you know how to.

Lots of things said in debate, to the unreflecting mind, make someone else look stupid.

Even now, I'm sure there's some unwise person who thinks the preceding comment makes you look stupid.

Just because a person makes a point in a certain way or uses a certain approach to being persuasive doesn't mean he should be trotted out as having done some moral wrong.

... however, in saying that, whenever a person morally evaluates another, that act does put itself against a scale of morality.

On other well-moderated boards I've been to (so well-moderated that users often explicitly commend the moderators), yours is the comment that would get a flame infraction, and no questions asked. No mod would hear your defense of the earnestness of your question. No one would actually believe another user has only half a brain. Even though this is possibly the case, it's clear you said it just because you didn't care to restrain your desire to berate him.

It's nice you two got over your contrariness, but I did not want to leave to the side these points for personal reflection which may have faded in a misjudgment of these events.

*~*~*~
I have a question. How is planking different from Fox running around Hyrule, defensively retreating when approached? Put aside the fact that the change in absolute position differs by much. What are the differing properties of these two ... match dynamics?

To claim that different rules may apply to two things A and B, it's necessary that A and B name different things. If I claim A and B are the same thing, it's necessary to show a property which one has and the other doesn't. (Yes, in logic, everything is the same thing until proven otherwise).
Since I don't think the property of involving movement is what makes one bannable, I'm asking that one be skipped over. But maybe that is the difference, in which case, school me. :embarrass

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would have t say the difference with Hyrule is because it is unable to be countered. (though no we have Sonic).

in the case of hyrule temple, the opponent is incapable of being able to attack Fox or chase him down, primarily because he is so very quick, and navigation of the stage increases the difficulty even further. In fact, if Fox lands merely a single hit, he can quite easily avoid any retaliation by the opponent.

His reflector protects him from any projectiles that would endanger him (another Fox or Falco or pit) and his high speed ensures that he can maintain the distance required so that they cannot use any other method.

in the case of planking, there are several characters that have a means of dealing with it, (assuming we consider planking based upon ledge stalling and not simply stalling).
the opponent can attempt to hog the ledge as much as they want, but many characters can simply impede the planking and ensure the opponent cannot sustain it indefinitely.

We also have the fact hat Fox stalling on hyrule is only capable on that stage (and pork city), so it is stage dependant and easily removed by banning those stages.

Planking is not dependent on the stage and so, monitoring a ban is also more difficult.

But hey i use a spring so what do I know?

 

[deepseadiva]

But hey i use a spring so what do I know?

I really love how some of the cast is basically ''planking lolwhut" about the entire thing.

Turnips ftw. ^^