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Should "No Tripping" be a Tournament Standard?

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BEES

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Ok, aside from the fact that this entire discussion is ********, because you don't hack games to make them more viable...
You're right. This is where the discussion is ********, because you do hack games. You hack them when the developer abandons them. Stops releasing patches, stops making new games, stops making competitive games.

And you don't need a USB gecko, just an SD card reader.

in addition to this thread about it, why doesnt a mod host a poll , give it x amount of time and go from there.


fairest way to do it.


now retort
Agreed. Please someone do this now.
 

fkacyan

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You're right. This is where the discussion is ********, because you do hack games. You hack them when the developer abandons them. Stops releasing patches, stops making new games, stops making competitive games.

And you don't need a USB gecko, just an SD card reader.
No, you don't. Nobody needed to hack SC, except to make it so you didn't have to put the discs in. Nobody needed to hack Third Strike. Nobody needed to hack GGXXAC. Nobody needed to hack Melee. Those games are and still are fine.

Hack Brawl all you want, but this isn't a competitive standard, and will never be.
 

Revven

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$150 + Voiding warranty + Just for no tripping = Stupid. I'll just play Melee if it ever comes to this.
You get more in the deal than just no tripping which has been covered already and secondly, this doesn't brick your Wii so that warranty bit is moot especially if you've owned the console for two years (well a year and a half, only a couple more months until 2 years so meh) now like myself.
 

metaXzero

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No, you don't. Nobody needed to hack SC, except to make it so you didn't have to put the discs in. Nobody needed to hack Third Strike. Nobody needed to hack GGXXAC. Nobody needed to hack Melee. Those games are and still are fine.
Did ANY of those games have a director who wanted to screw with the competitive community?
EDIT: Sakurai didn't care about the comp. community when he made Melee.
 

Johnthegalactic

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POOR attempt to descredit that video.

Falcon could've
1. ran to use an aerial
2. Shielded/Sidestep
3. Up-Smash
4. Just dash a short distance.
5. Just walked forward.

IMO, 3 (what you suggested) is the least likely. But because he pressed forward, he was subjected to Falcon's awful trip (which goes farther then all those alternatives).

Try again. This video is still good evidence of how badly tripping could maim you.
1. you jump to use aerials
2.That may have worked.
3.It would have been too slow
4.He still would have been hit in the same area
5.He dashed, you don't trip whenever you just walk forward.

or... I just want to get rid of a nuisance that's useless to me anyway. It is making the game better, but, only slightly and that slight change happens to be good enough for me to play it even more. I already play Brawl and have been for the past 5 months since it released putting up with tripping, I think I've had enough of the trip johns to be honest.

Look, this isn't hit stun, this isn't character balancing, it's freaking tripping. WHY is everybody defending it as though it's the holy grail? As though it's an ancient relic that needs to be cherished because of how old it is and that we can't part without it? Tripping hasn't done anything good for you or me or the hobo down the street. When you trip in real life, do you like it? Do you get back up and say "Well, I'll just approach again." No, you feel pain and may complain about it. It's the same case here, except it's in a game, and it's tripping which can happen in real life too... and... it's not good in both cases.

The only ill part that I see people have a problem with is that it's a code... all the code does it edit the memory, it's exactly what a patch would do except it's in our control. What is the big deal in using it for finals in tournaments? Or using it in general? It's not blasphemous.
You can use it, why does it have to be a tournament standard?
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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You can use it, why does it have to be a tournament standard?
It doesn't have to be, this is just questioning whether or not it would be in the future when we see results from people hosting their own tourneys with the code on. Like Hylian for example, he's using it for the finals in his upcoming tourney and I for one would support that idea if it couldn't become standard for every match. Having it for finals is just as good, right?
 

metaXzero

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1. you jump to use aerials
2.That may have worked.
3.It would have been too slow
4.He still would have been hit in the same area
5.He dashed, you don't trip whenever you just walk forward.
1. Since he tripped, he couldn't walk/run into a jump (or do anything other then trip).
2. At least you accept this possibility.
3. Why'd ya bring it up then as what he was going to do?
4. At the very least, he wouldn't be on the edge where he would be D-aired off.
5. Everytime you walk or run, you risk tripping.
 

Doggalina

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Ok, I got a great idea, a sort of common ground, in a tournament setting, the Tournament organizer, if allowing a modded version of Brawl to be used, can not encourage that someone mod their Wii also, but they can ask for a witness to their match if they think tripping will be an issue, and may let their players have a rematch if they call tripping interference(with the witnesses approval).
Also, I am mostly sure, you start up Brawl through a different channel if you're using a modification, right?

Edit: 1000 posts already??? I didn't even notice until I went to a different thread and saw one of my old replies. I am now Smash Lord(head begins to swell lol)!
You don't mod your Wii to do this. You just install some software. It takes 5 minutes and isn't dangerous at all. It can all be undone later. Calling for rematches just isn't practical.
 

Johnthegalactic

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1. Since he tripped, he couldn't walk/run into a jump (or do anything other then trip).
2. At least you accept this possibility.
3. Why'd ya bring it up then as what he was going to do?
4. At the very least, he wouldn't be on the edge where he would be D-aired off.
5. Everytime you walk or run, you risk tripping.
1. This may be the only thing possible to do out of all his options.:p
2. Actually, I am testing right now, and you can't sheild during Falcons initial dash.
3. It was one of his options.
4. No, Captain Falcons long initial dash would have had him on the ledge no matter what, he was very close to it too.
5. Whenever you dash you risk tripping, walking doesn't put you at risk.

I am going to do some testing on one.
 

Pierce7d

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1. Since he tripped, he couldn't walk/run into a jump (or do anything other then trip).
2. At least you accept this possibility.
3. Why'd ya bring it up then as what he was going to do?
4. At the very least, he wouldn't be on the edge where he would be D-aired off.
5. Everytime you walk or run, you risk tripping.
I believe you only trip when dashing. I have never tripped when walking, and have been told that you can only trip when you smash the joystick. Mind you, Falcon could've even been trying to Fsmash without the cstick, and this would cause a trip.

Also, without the trip, Falcon may or may not have been hit by Fox's Dair, but I HIGHLY doubt it would've dragged him offstage.

Lastly, it's likely Falcon was going to perform an Aerial. Before I jump, I usually hit the direction I want to jump, so I can begin moving forward immediately. In this instance, Falcon did the same, and tripped before the jump.

Falcon, I really don't care what happens. In the great realm of all things Brawl, tripping has screwed me over, but I've been fortunately enough not to get owned in Tourney by it. Yesterday, I tripped into Fox's fsmash at 36%, but this ruined my momentum, and enabled Fox to turn the tide, when he probably would've otherwise lost. Momentum is very important in Brawl, and tripping kills it.

I won't mod my own Wii, as I play for fun as well as sport, but if I were to go to a tournament full of tripless Wiis, I definately wouldn't complain. You can add me to your ignore list if you want, but I think it's pretty immature and close-minded if you just ignore everyone who doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Lastly, I think that additional mods to the Wii as a tournament standard is dangerous ground, mostly for the reasons Taiki stated. I'm not entirely sure how long it would take to check for unapproved hacks, but it does take time. If there are lots of setups, or the tournament is large, this could waste valuable time. Furthermore, it would only take the minimum amount of time if no one actually modded their Wii additionally. Let's say 4 people did. Now you have to decide the consequence. One of them says they didn't remember to take off the mod to buff Charizard's weight, because they were trying to do boss battles intense, but needed a bit of a boost. Now do you DQ them for this or what? And of course, the other three now have similar excuses. You'd need a clearly defined set of consequences for this.

I'm not saying that mods shouldn't be used. I'm just saying if you're going to have it as a tournament standard, you're going to need a few more rules, and prepare to overcome a bit of controversy.
 

Revven

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I have a pretty decent example of what tripping did to me in one match, although, it didn't hinder the outcome I still got punished for dashing which is dumb which led into me getting punished for something that's out of my control.

Here

At about 50 seconds you should see me trip (CF). Also, watch the rest of the match if you're curious enough as to what happens. XP

Edit: And btw, I just wanted to get off the **** platform so I could hit him. I wasn't trying to attack, I was trying to get off of it as soon as possible and tripping messed that up and I got hit because of it. Wouldn't have happened if tripping wasn't in play.
 

M.K

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This code will NEVER be anything that will be accepted in the competitive community. Sure, you could host a tournament with No Tripping Code in effect, but it will NEVER be taken seriously. If you really think it will than you seriously need to rethink your priorities!
 

Taiki

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I have a pretty decent example of what tripping did to me in one match, although, it didn't hinder the outcome I still got punished for dashing which is dumb which led into me getting punished for something that's out of my control.

Here

At about 50 seconds you should see me trip (CF). Also, watch the rest of the match if you're curious enough as to what happens. XP

Edit: And btw, I just wanted to get off the **** platform so I could hit him. I wasn't trying to attack, I was trying to get off of it as soon as possible and tripping messed that up and I got hit because of it. Wouldn't have happened if tripping wasn't in play.
You ate 1 fair for the trip. Getting hit the the nair afterwords was your own fault, you could have simply went low and up-bed to ledge. Tripping didn't cost you the stock, throwing falcon punch when ganon wasn't near open did. The trip did very little to influence the match
 

Johnthegalactic

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I believe you only trip when dashing. I have never tripped when walking, and have been told that you can only trip when you smash the joystick. Mind you, Falcon could've even been trying to Fsmash without the cstick, and this would cause a trip.

Also, without the trip, Falcon may or may not have been hit by Fox's Dair, but I HIGHLY doubt it would've dragged him offstage.

Lastly, it's likely Falcon was going to perform an Aerial. Before I jump, I usually hit the direction I want to jump, so I can begin moving forward immediately. In this instance, Falcon did the same, and tripped before the jump.
I tested this the angle of the stage will make you fall off. Yeah, and aerial seemed like his best option, but he may have been KOed anyway, Fox had his dair out so soon.

Falcon, I really don't care what happens. In the great realm of all things Brawl, tripping has screwed me over, but I've been fortunately enough not to get owned in Tourney by it. Yesterday, I tripped into Fox's fsmash at 36%, but this ruined my momentum, and enabled Fox to turn the tide, when he probably would've otherwise lost. Momentum is very important in Brawl, and tripping kills it.

I won't mod my own Wii, as I play for fun as well as sport, but if I were to go to a tournament full of tripless Wiis, I definately wouldn't complain. You can add me to your ignore list if you want, but I think it's pretty immature and close-minded if you just ignore everyone who doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Lastly, I think that additional mods to the Wii as a tournament standard is dangerous ground, mostly for the reasons Taiki stated. I'm not entirely sure how long it would take to check for unapproved hacks, but it does take time. If there are lots of setups, or the tournament is large, this could waste valuable time. Furthermore, it would only take the minimum amount of time if no one actually modded their Wii additionally. Let's say 4 people did. Now you have to decide the consequence. One of them says they didn't remember to take off the mod to buff Charizard's weight, because they were trying to do boss battles intense, but needed a bit of a boost. Now do you DQ them for this or what? And of course, the other three now have similar excuses. You'd need a clearly defined set of consequences for this.

I'm not saying that mods shouldn't be used. I'm just saying if you're going to have it as a tournament standard, you're going to need a few more rules, and prepare to overcome a bit of controversy.
No man, I am trying to get things straight, I won't ignore you, I am listening. I kinda like the idea, but it being mandatory would be a stupid thing, it's best just to give them the choice, and maybe the TO could just erase their code files regardless of checking them or not and replace them with the standard, just, people like me who won't mod their Wii, should get a witness to decide if a rematch is justifiable.
 

Revven

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You ate 1 fair for the trip. Getting hit the the nair afterwords was your own fault, you could have simply went lot and up-bed to ledge. Tripping didn't cost you the stock, throwing falcon punch when ganon wasn't near open did. The trip did very little to influence the match
I know, I said it didn't hinder me greatly, it still would have been nice at the time to have not had that happened (the trip I mean).
 

Imp

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And here I was thinking this discussion was a joke. The very idea of a "competitive" community accepting a hack as its standard, no matter what the hack is, is a disgrace. If you hate tripping so freakin bad, theres an easier way to get rid of it, play melee. Does that make too much sense or something? No need to crap on the people that believe brawl is fine the way it is.
 

metaXzero

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And here I was thinking this discussion was a joke. The very idea of a "competitive" community accepting a hack as its standard, no matter what the hack is, is a disgrace. If you hate tripping so freakin bad, theres an easier way to get rid of it, play melee. Does that make too much sense or something? No need to crap on the people that believe brawl is fine the way it is.
The fact is some people like Brawl's physics BUT hate tripping. Hating tripping =//= hating Brawl. And how is removing an anti-competitive mechanic from competitive play a "disgrace". And don't you DARE use the slippery slope argument!!

I prefer Melee BTW.
 

fkacyan

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The fact is some people like Brawl's physics BUT hate tripping. Hating tripping =//= hating Brawl. And how is removing an anti-competitive mechanic from competitive play a "disgrace". And don't you DARE use the slippery slope argument!!

I prefer Melee BTW.
If you like a game that has physics that make recovery easy and prevent combos, I'm not sure why you can't tolerate tripping... If tripping was in Melee, that would be devestating, but more often than not, I take maybe 10% and some knockback from a trip, which usually results in my opponent trying to combo me and (gasp) getting punished for it.

Either that or a tipper misses me because of the invincibility frames.

It's a disgrace because no other game in the major scene has really ever had to do it. Ever.
 

Johnthegalactic

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The fact is some people like Brawl's physics BUT hate tripping. Hating tripping =//= hating Brawl. And how is removing an anti-competitive mechanic from competitive play a "disgrace". And don't you DARE use the slippery slope argument!!

I prefer Melee BTW.
He wasn't using a slippery slope arguement, he meant the game should be played, unmodified, untampered in only it's true form with what is included in the disk, that includes tripping.
Basically any modification=unnacceptable, it's being a purist, let the game be in it's pure, unadulterated form.
 

metaXzero

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If you like a game that has physics that make recovery easy and prevent combos, I'm not sure why you can't tolerate tripping... If tripping was in Melee, that would be devestating, but more often than not, I take maybe 10% and some knockback from a trip, which usually results in my opponent trying to combo me and (gasp) getting punished for it.

Either that or a tipper misses me because of the invincibility frames.

It's a disgrace because no other game in the major scene has really ever had to do it. Ever.
Just because YOU haven't tripped at the worst possible time doesn't mean it never happens.
And I don't see how being a first makes it a disgrace. This is really the only competitive game where the developer programmed a stupid mechanic for no reason other then to dissuade comp. play.
 

metaXzero

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Double Post (Sumimasen).
He wasn't using a slippery slope arguement, he meant the game should be played, unmodified, untampered in only it's true form with what is included in the disk, that includes tripping.
Basically any modification=unnacceptable, it's being a purist, let the game be in it's pure, unadulterated form.
I was telling him NOT to bring up that argument.

That's not a good argument for keeping tripping (its good for hitstun and character alteration, BUT NOT TRIPPING). Wouldn't 2 minute, all stages, and all items matches be the game at its purist form?
 

fkacyan

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Just because YOU haven't tripped at the worst possible time doesn't mean it never happens.
And I don't see how being a first makes it a disgrace. This is really the only competitive game where the developer programmed a stupid mechanic for no reason other then to dissuade comp. play.
He actually did it to encourage casual play, which is not the same thing.

And I have tripped into Ike's Fsmash, etc... However, usually it's not an issue. It generally isn't. It almost certainly won't be. Most of us have just sucked it up and moved on, because it's the equivalent of somebody punching you lightly on the arm. Sometimes they overdo it and that **** hurts, but most of the time? Not really.
 

Johnthegalactic

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Double Post (Sumimasen).


I was telling him NOT to bring up that argument.

That's not a good argument for keeping tripping (its good for hitstun and character alteration, BUT NOT TRIPPING). Wouldn't 2 minute, all stages, and all items matches be the game at its purist form?
No, I said everything that comes on the disk untampered, that means using the disk to it's fullest without altering the permanent coding, changing items and stuff is changing items, it isn't the same as hacking the game.
 

BEES

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This code will NEVER be anything that will be accepted in the competitive community. Sure, you could host a tournament with No Tripping Code in effect, but it will NEVER be taken seriously. If you really think it will than you seriously need to rethink your priorities!
It will be taken seriously. The people that play Brawl competitively are the ones in a position to make a decision about it, and they are mostly going to want tripping out.

Regardless of what the purists or the Melee community think.
 

betterthanbonds9

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Au contraire my friend, you should be ashamed for using that BS Slippery Slope argument for the umpteenth time and acting like you're smart for doing so.
i play CS:S nonstop....well almost, it was sarcasm....

Ok, aside from the fact that this entire discussion is ********, because you don't hack games to make them more viable...
because half life mods sure as hell aren't fun. Have you ever played Garry's mod? I cracked up after 5 minutes. CS? portal? and of course there are other mods to games. Do you like getting new maps in racing games, shooting games, and RTSs? Or maybe you dislike additional missions in RPGs. Changing a game to make it more fun has been done, will be done, and the products are usually better than the original in some aspects.

Assuming a potential Wii setup was bought just for Smash, they also need to buy a Gecko, Twilight Princess, and then hack their Wiis.

$150 + Voiding warranty + Just for no tripping = Stupid. I'll just play Melee if it ever comes to this.
1. big assumption, a lot of people have TP, and they're working on getting it in other games.
2. nice try, but normal SD cards work too and i got my 2GB one for $10 last year.
3. Check sites before you update wii and get the banhammer, or you could just delete the homebrew every time before you update and reinstall it
4. that's $60 at most
5. it doesn't void the warranty iirc

There are 3 possiblities of tripping:
1. you just trip, nothing happens
2. you trip into an attack, get damage/killed depending on timing
3. you trip into an attack and dodge it

1 is just lame and is only for the lulz

2 and 3 are both detrimental to the game because at that time chance is taking over far too much. Anybody here play pokemon? This is why they ban DT, too much chance added onto more chance.
 

BEES

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The competitive TA community wouldn't exist without hacks. Ever since cavedog went out of business, all the patches and support for the game have come from its players.

Even now that Supreme Commander is out, most of the support has been 3rd party for it.
 

fkacyan

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because half life mods sure as hell aren't fun. Have you ever played Garry's mod? I cracked up after 5 minutes. CS? portal? and of course there are other mods to games. Do you like getting new maps in racing games, shooting games, and RTSs? Or maybe you dislike additional missions in RPGs. Changing a game to make it more fun has been done, will be done, and the products are usually better than the original in some aspects.
I'm sorry, but I didn't need to hack my copy of SC to make a map. As well, those updates are never mainstream... Much like this hack!

1. big assumption, a lot of people have TP, and they're working on getting it in other games.
2. nice try, but normal SD cards work too and i got my 2GB one for $10 last year.
3. Check sites before you update wii and get the banhammer, or you could just delete the homebrew every time before you update and reinstall it
4. that's $60 at most
5. it doesn't void the warranty iirc
Hacking your firmware? Um, yes, it does void the warranty. A lot of people have the system just for Brawl, that's still $110 for Brawl including the game itself, and most people don't want to jump hoops just to remove tripping.

It's still not feasible, and will continue not to be feasible until you find a way to get around tripping without extra games and hardware.

I'm pretty sure that in competitive TF2, random crits are removed. Why can't the same be true for tripping?

EDIT: Oh, and cost is not a good enough reason to do this. Legality isn't either. YOU DO NOT NEED TO HARD MOD YOUR WII TO DO THIS.
I'm fairly sure that the TF2 competitive scene isn't as big and doesn't have as much money behind it as the other competitive games that aren't hacked. You know, like Starcraft, where pros make 250k a year?
 

swordgard

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I'm sorry, but I didn't need to hack my copy of SC to make a map. As well, those updates are never mainstream... Much like this hack!



Hacking your firmware? Um, yes, it does void the warranty. A lot of people have the system just for Brawl, that's still $110 for Brawl including the game itself, and most people don't want to jump hoops just to remove tripping.

It's still not feasible, and will continue not to be feasible until you find a way to get around tripping without extra games and hardware.



I'm fairly sure that the TF2 competitive scene isn't as big and doesn't have as much money behind it as the other competitive games that aren't hacked. You know, like Starcraft, where pros make 250k a year?
Since not everyone wants to hack wiis to do this, why not do this.

Allow it when it is available(IE someone has an already hacked wii, must be agreed on both ends)
And make it a standard for finals, to ensure randomness is limited.
 

BEES

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I'm fairly sure that the TF2 competitive scene isn't as big and doesn't have as much money behind it as the other competitive games that aren't hacked. You know, like Starcraft, where pros make 250k a year?
TF2 is pretty much where most of the UT community went. It's a pretty big game.

The only reason Starcraft isn't hacked is because of Blizzard's unrivaled support. The moment a problem appears, it is patched. Even then, a lot of people play Starcraft with hacked maps, to the point where those even have their own tournaments.
 

AlAxe

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Tripping is an annoying part of the game but I've just gotten used to it by now. As long as the hack doesn't cost much money and is practical to apply in tournaments I would be glad to see tripping gone. Tripping almost always puts the player who tripped at a disadvantage and its only a few times saved me from a chaingrab. If tripping stays though I don't think it would be that big of a deal.
 

ph00tbag

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Since not everyone wants to hack wiis to do this, why not do this.

Allow it when it is available(IE someone has an already hacked wii, must be agreed on both ends)
And make it a standard for finals, to ensure randomness is limited.
I like the first idea here. I certainly am confident that if, in the finals, one party pulled out their hacked Wii and said, "let's do this without tripping," it's something that the other party would be more than willing to agree to.

Maybe the goal should not be to require every match to be a non-tripping match, but to let it be permissible if both parties in a match want to do it. This is not to say that all hacks should be condoned, in fact, I would take a more Draconian viewpoint on any other hack to the game, but the no tripping hack just feels more tolerable. Personally, if I hear of a TO allowing this single hack to be used and none other, I won't consider him or her to be in the wrong.
 

Foxy

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Why are items banned in tournaments?

They give a random advantage to a random player at a random time.

Why should tripping be removed for tournaments?

It gives a random advantage to a random player at a random time.


If you personally like items and think tripping is fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Nobody can tell you how to play the game.

But tournaments are for players who are seriously competitive, and if you aren't part of that crowd (aka if you've never been to a tournament) then you absolutely have no right to speak for what should or shouldn't be decided upon regarding this proposal.
 

leelue

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All up in your personal space, NY
110$ are you kidding me? I just went to my friends house, took the SD card outta my mp3 player and used his copy of TP.... that sounds pretty free to me.

Dont have a friend with TP? Rent it for a day, not so hard.

By a 2 gig sd card, any one will do from what i've seen. BTW, this also opens your wii up to a huge library of NES, game boy and genesis games and whatever else the homebrew channel has to offer. All for that sweet price of Zero dollars.

And i checked before i got homebrew on my wii, it does not void the warranty. At least getting the channel doesn't, idk about brawl hacks. Unlike some people (thiocyanide) i don't state facts (as opposed to opinions) without knowing i am right.

And again to thiocyanide, you say people don't hack games to make them more viable, but earlier in this thread someone said that it's been done to competitive games before. I'm curious if anyone knows those competitive games so that the people on my side of the argument will know whether or not this would (possibly) be the first time.

Anyway, putting a game element into a game knowing that it will be detrimental to gameplay, succeed in taking away from skill to a point where a match can be won or lost, and people will hate it sounds like bad game design. The rest of the game is a cut above even though I, personally, would LOVE to try the other melee-type hacks, including no chaingrabbing (lets all forget about melee shiek for a moment....)
 

Johnthegalactic

Smash Lord
Joined
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I like the first idea here. I certainly am confident that if, in the finals, one party pulled out their hacked Wii and said, "let's do this without tripping," it's something that the other party would be more than willing to agree to.

Maybe the goal should not be to require every match to be a non-tripping match, but to let it be permissible if both parties in a match want to do it. This is not to say that all hacks should be condoned, in fact, I would take a more Draconian viewpoint on any other hack to the game, but the no tripping hack just feels more tolerable. Personally, if I hear of a TO allowing this single hack to be used and none other, I won't consider him or her to be in the wrong.
That's a good idea.
 

EdreesesPieces

Smash Bros Before Hos
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confirmed, sending supplies.
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EdreesesPieces
I would love to see the new standard.

No items.
No tripping.
Metaknight only.
Final destination.

Kidding aside, I would be EXTREMELY for this. And the competitive community could laugh at Sakurai's face really, really hard. This is exciting.
 

ThaRoy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
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...
If you do this mod and take tripping out... How do you get it back? Just take the SD card out?
 
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