Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[JesiahTEG]

That's not true. MK is beatable, he really is. He forces you to play perfectly though, with no margin of error. I'll admit, a lot of his matchups are in his favor...Nearly all of them. But some are only 55-45. That is not enough to warrant a ban.

 

[da K.I.D.]

shut up.
nobody asked you

 

[da K.I.D.]

seriously tho.

how is that right?
you have to play perfectly to beat MK, while he can play sloppy as hell and spam stuff badly and they still have the advantage.

the margin of error for MK is like 10 times less than any other character he plays against. it should be near even, but the margin of error is so rediculously slanted in MKs favor, that leaving him in competition with all the other characters, is not good for the game

 

[WakerofWinds]

seriously tho.

how is that right?
you have to play perfectly to beat MK, while he can play sloppy as hell and spam stuff badly and they still have the advantage.

the margin of error for MK is like 10 times less than any other character he plays against. it should be near even, but the margin of error is so rediculously slanted in MKs favor, that leaving him in competition with all the other characters, is not good for the game

It's not that that's whats bad for the game.

What's bad for the game is when people start switching over to play him, and abandon their other characters, so the metagame for THOSE characters never improves. That's whats bad for the game. And also the only reason I'd even consider any type of ban on him.

At least, imo anyway.

 

[JesiahTEG]

seriously tho.

how is that right?
you have to play perfectly to beat MK, while he can play sloppy as hell and spam stuff badly and they still have the advantage.

the margin of error for MK is like 10 times less than any other character he plays against. it should be near even, but the margin of error is so rediculously slanted in MKs favor, that leaving him in competition with all the other characters, is not good for the game

The higher the skill of both players the more the matchup becomes even. If one player is terrible using MK and the other player is terrible using Snake, then MK will win because you can play like a noob and do ok with him. At max potential for both characters though, it's even if not in Snake's advantage.

 

[infomon]

Finally a Poll! It sure is easier than arguing with idiots...

LOL, I guess you haven't been reading this thread then.......

 

[LeeHarris]

The higher the skill of both players the more the matchup becomes even. If one player is terrible using MK and the other player is terrible using Snake, then MK will win because you can play like a noob and do ok with him. At max potential for both characters though, it's even if not in Snake's advantage.

I know you don't live in a MK infested area like I do, so I will approach this as such.

I'd say that at the low level, Snake is far easier to use and more powerful than MK. Simple tilts, grenade camping, ridiculous power, etc. Around the mid level, MK becomes easier to use than Snake. At the higher level, Snake becomes easier to use again.

It doesn't mean though that Snake has the advantage. If Snake grenade camps and spams tilts (ie: any Snake player against MK) then he can win against a MK that doesn't know what he's doing. If you are smart in the matchup, however, then you can get around everything Snake has.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Yeah Lee, you basically took what I said and specified it...divided it into three levels...low, mid and high. I guess I should have been more specific.

Also I play a lot of good MK's when I go OOS.

 

[Dark Popo]

Meta Mainers say no, Meta Haters say yes. I think it's a character like everyone else, but has a lot more unexpectations. So I say yes.

 

[AlAxe]

The higher the skill of both players the more the matchup becomes even. If one player is terrible using MK and the other player is terrible using Snake, then MK will win because you can play like a noob and do ok with him. At max potential for both characters though, it's even if not in Snake's advantage.

That's just not true. If it were we would see Snake winning more of the major tournaments in the finals. Now pretty much every major tournament final is won by someone playing MK. Your claim is just not supported by the facts.

 

[salaboB]

Whilst I would vote yes, I think the London scene's still on Melee so I wouldn't be attending a tourney anytime soon. Because of this it would be unfair to vote yes when there's tourney-goers voting no, right?

I wonder how many players also in my position are voting anyway, though. I think for that reason alone this poll would be better in the SBR- I don't think this is a topic to be discussed with casuals that won't be affected either way from the ban, and would continue to use him regardless in their own circle of friends.

Still, I'm pro-ban in spirit at least At least a soft-ban to see if the metagme develops for the better, which I truly believe it would. Will be very interesting to follow this either way.

You can vote, it's just checking the general opinion and that's your opinion.

Meta Mainers say no, Meta Haters say yes. I think it's a character like everyone else, but has a lot more unexpectations. So I say yes.

Very few of the "Yes" votes hate MK.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I vote yes to the ban, as if MK wasn't in Brawl, then the Tier list would change dramatically, as only the characters who do semi-decent against him have a chance of winning and getting high on the Tier list. This will also let more characters develop meta-games, which is a good thing.

Not to mention the thousands of people who quit brawl due to MK's dominance... Banning him might bring them back, so its a good thing in a business sense too!

 

[M.K]

Meta Mainers say no, Meta Haters say yes. I think it's a character like everyone else, but has a lot more unexpectations. So I say yes.

Meta-Knight is certainly a beastly video game character.

Trust me, if Peach or Captain Falcon were this way too, we'd be banning them. Hating MK isn't the reason we are banning him.

 

[JesiahTEG]

That's just not true. If it were we would see Snake winning more of the major tournaments in the finals. Now pretty much every major tournament final is won by someone playing MK. Your claim is just not supported by the facts.

Player Skill>Character choice. M2K plays Metaknight and dominates the East Coast. If he played a different character he'd win every tournament still. This is supported by the fact that he played DDD for the first few months of Brawl and won every tournament with him.

DSF plays Metaknight and wins all of his tournaments. If he played a different character he'd still win. This is supported by the fact that he played Snake for a long time, and he still wins.

The best players don't play Snake, or they'd win using him.

 

[LeeHarris]

Player Skill>Character choice. M2K plays Metaknight and dominates the East Coast. If he played a different character he'd win every tournament still. This is supported by the fact that he played DDD for the first few months of Brawl and won every tournament with him.

DSF plays Metaknight and wins all of his tournaments. If he played a different character he'd still win. This is supported by the fact that he played Snake for a long time, and he still wins.

The best players don't play Snake, or they'd win using him.

Actually, Azen and chillin both beat M2K several times when he used D3.

Also, DSF got wrecked when he traveled to the EC and played Metaknights with Snake. When he played M2K's MK with Snake at HOBO11 he got wrecked there too.

 

[salaboB]

Player Skill>Character choice. M2K plays Metaknight and dominates the East Coast. If he played a different character he'd win every tournament still. This is supported by the fact that he played DDD for the first few months of Brawl and won every tournament with him.

DSF plays Metaknight and wins all of his tournaments. If he played a different character he'd still win. This is supported by the fact that he played Snake for a long time, and he still wins.

The best players don't play Snake, or they'd win using him.

But that's because nobody rivals them in skill, not because an even-matchup "well played Snake" beats MK.

It's like me saying if I sit down at Brawl and make my dad (Who doesn't play video games) play, if I play MK versus Snake I'm winning with MK, but hey I could do it with Snake too! That means MK isn't a problem.

Actually, Azen and chillin both beat M2K several times when he used D3.

Also, DSF got wrecked when he traveled to the EC and played Metaknights with Snake. When he played M2K's MK with Snake at HOBO11 he got wrecked there too.

This as well.

 

[WakerofWinds]

Player Skill>Character choice. M2K plays Metaknight and dominates the East Coast. If he played a different character he'd win every tournament still. This is supported by the fact that he played DDD for the first few months of Brawl and won every tournament with him.

DSF plays Metaknight and wins all of his tournaments. If he played a different character he'd still win. This is supported by the fact that he played Snake for a long time, and he still wins.

The best players don't play Snake, or they'd win using him.

The point you're missing here is this:

If the two best players ever in the history of human existence who were equal in their ability to counter other characters and play characters. If each of them knew each other's weaknesses and strengths, how to exploit the weaknesses and gimp the strengths, and let's say one of them used MK and one of them used Snake. Let me tell you who would win if neither of them made a mistake. MK. Why? Because he has no truly exploitable weaknesses, and the few weaknesses he does have are easily overlooked by the advantages and strengths he DOES have.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Azen and Chillin did beat M2K...but not near the end. Near the end he won everything.

DSF didn't get wrecked when he traveled to EC and played our MK's. In tourney he lost to Chillin's Falco and Azen's Lucario. He lost to M2K in friendlies...but it's M2K. He lost a money match or two to Inferno Omni but then won a money match and then took him out in tournament. He didn't lose to any MK's besides M2K pretty much.

He lost with Snake and Metaknight to M2K because M2K is a better player and beats everyone, lol.

 

[RizardoLawless]

Rizardo votes no

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't vote yet. He should be banned but not now...I'm still waiting for someone to prove all these claims that MK has neutral match-up's (I'm looking at you Yoshi players -__-)

 

[LeeHarris]

Azen and Chillin did beat M2K...but not near the end. Near the end he won everything.

Yes, but he quit D3 before everone learned how to exploit D3's weaknesses. Every character has gotten worse and MK has gotten better.

DSF didn't get wrecked when he traveled to EC and played our MK's. In tourney he lost to Chillin's Falco and Azen's Lucario. He lost to M2K in friendlies...but it's M2K. He lost a money match or two to Inferno Omni but then won a money match and then took him out in tournament. He didn't lose to any MK's besides M2K pretty much.

He lost with Snake and Metaknight to M2K because M2K is a better player and beats everyone, lol.

Wouldn't you consider M2K the only MK on DSF's level though?

 

[PhantomX]

For the record... DSF actually stopped playing Snake cuz he could not beat Futile pretty much ever with him. Went to D3 for a bit, then finally went to MK.

 

[Praxis]

Player Skill>Character choice. M2K plays Metaknight and dominates the East Coast. If he played a different character he'd win every tournament still. This is supported by the fact that he played DDD for the first few months of Brawl and won every tournament with him.

DSF plays Metaknight and wins all of his tournaments. If he played a different character he'd still win. This is supported by the fact that he played Snake for a long time, and he still wins.

The best players don't play Snake, or they'd win using him.

DSF switched away from Snake when he got met M2K on the east coast and couldn't beat Futile's Wario with Snake back at home.

It's been well documented that switching to MK is an auto tourney rankings booster. Just look at Overswarm. The best ROB switched to MK and within two weeks was placing better.

Wouldn't you consider M2K the only MK on DSF's level though?

Azen.

 

[Steel]

I don't vote yet. He should be banned but not now...I'm still waiting for someone to prove all these claims that MK has neutral match-up's (I'm looking at you Yoshi players -__-)

Come on Gheb, I know you're intelligent enough to realize the Yoshi boards are far too hopeful.

 

[salaboB]

Come on Gheb, I know you're intelligent enough to realize the Yoshi boards are far too hopeful.

They are a breath of fresh air in a cynical world.

 

[Praxis]

MK. Why? Because he has no truly exploitable weaknesses, and the few weaknesses he does have are easily overlooked by the advantages and strengths he DOES have.

Seriously, what happened to you? This is scary.

 

[bigman40]

Come on Gheb, I know you're intelligent enough to realize the Yoshi boards are far too hopeful.

****...way to insult us....

Besides, the matchup was agreed as 45:55 MK advantage. So, an MK vs MK ditto is still the best option overall.

EDIT: wow....I didn't think it would block out a that word....

 

[da K.I.D.]

for the record jesiah does play in an MK infested area, in fact, in our last 3 tourneys, the first five places in the tourney, played MK at some point and he still beats most of them with snake. the guy who was winning with MK a while ago, jesiah whooped him so bad that he basically quit the tourney in the finals because he couldnt beat the snake camping. but than again, when he does lose as Snake he runs to MK in a heartbeat, and his Mk is nowhere near as good as his snake and he still wins with him. this is because he is basically a level above everyone else in our area, hes the only one that actually practices with the game, and hes is the only one that can do nuances things like consistently powersheilding and stuff like that. but the point remains that he only beats MKs because hes that much better than them as a player

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol Steel, I'm truly sorry but sarcasm doesn't quite work on teh interwebs ;(

 

[Biinii]

The 1st place of the last tourney I played was of a MetaKnight. He lost no best-of-3 match and there were excellent players among the participants. The 1st placed player praticed a lot with MK and simply, only one person was close to beating him(using Wolf). Really, the Wolf player is one of the most amazing players i've ever saw but, MK is way too appelative. Also, many of my freeplay experiences ended with a MK.

I'm no SSB pro(this tourney I got 8th) and I lose to every MK with the "same" play-level as mine. I don't know if frustration is an argument but, i voted for ban.

 

[Steel]

lol Steel, I'm truly sorry but sarcasm doesn't quite work on teh interwebs ;(

I actually have a high sarcasm detector on the internet.

And I know you were slightly joking, because there's just no way those two go close to even >_> Probably 60:40 at best.

 

[salaboB]

****...way to insult us....

Besides, the matchup was agreed as 45:55 MK advantage. So, an MK vs MK ditto is still the best option overall.

EDIT: wow....I didn't think it would block out a that word....

I'm not sure it was insulting, the Yoshi boards have always been a positive and supportive place compared to many of the other boards -- even when everyone was calling Yoshi low tier and his ATs hadn't been found, his boards were busy being upbeat and looking for ways to improve him (And cheering on people who were using him competitively).

 

[WakerofWinds]

Seriously, what happened to you? This is scary.

What happened to me is this. I came back to smashboards originally because one of my favorite characters was going to be banned. I'm NOT in favor of a ban, well, sort of. I'm in favor of some kind of ban in a way where the metagame of other characters can improve. I would honestly HATE to see MK banned, thus why I voted no. I think he is beatable to some extent, but it requires luck and a lot of uphill fighting. However, as I said in my first post in this topic, I'd like to see the character boards come back to life. Maybe I'm too hopeful, because the kirby board is pretty dead anyway, with the only major topic being a character discussion on D3 about the matchup, and even that's only being posted in every once and awhile. But if the other character boards are this dead, and no real metagame improvements are being made, then there needs to be something done. Don't get me wrong, I think that everything needs to be done to find an MK counter, without him being banned. However, at the rate things are going, from what I hear you all saying, it isn't possible to improve the metagame for other characters at a rate where they can fight MK in any real way. At the same time, it may be hard to find a counter for MK without MK actually being around.

Does that make sense?

On a side note, kirby really doesn't have any advanced techs. Whats with that?

Edit: Also, I've simply decided to take the logical side, as opposed to the raging random person side. (yay!) And by that I don't mean "no" is raging and "yes" is logical, I mean I'm posting logically as opposed to using small facts to chip points out of others arguments.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Jeez, now if Popularity was a factor in banning MK, I was playing random Wifi for 2 hours, All I ever got was MK MK MK, and me as Wario or D3. Now... How is that right?

 

[Skler]

Everyone who votes yes is a scrub, that is all.

Edit: So far there are 240 scrubs on smashboards.

 

[Lord Viper]

Jeez, now if Popularity was a factor in banning MK, I was playing random Wifi for 2 hours, All I ever got was MK MK MK, and me as Wario or D3. Now... How is that right?

I guess they thought if tuxedo mask is going to be banned soon, then lets play him till the end... or they just want to get on your nerves. XD

 

[WakerofWinds]

Everyone who votes yes is a scrub, that is all.

Edit: So far there are 240 scrubs on smashboards.

Note: It's impossible for a human to be an inanimate object such as a "scrub."

That is all.

 

[salaboB]

Everyone who votes yes is a scrub, that is all.

Edit: So far there are 240 scrubs on smashboards.

Everyone who misuses Sirlin is showing their ignorance.

Go read the article again, the term "scrub" doesn't apply to a discussion about what the rules should be. Your opinion of it certainly doesn't make it true.

 

[Ace55]

I vote that Praxis changes the animated part of his sig. I also voted yes. I'm not going to repeat what everyone has already said though.

 

[Terrabottuti]

Huh, it's been a while since I've been here.

I'm normally against banning characters in fighting games, especially in a game like Smash Brothers, where the characters themselves are a feature, rather than being empty vessels for movesets like some games can be... but if this thread has shown me anything, it's that Meta Knight has a dark presence. It can't be denied that he's making a HUGE s***storm out of this thread, and countless other ones, too.

No character is unbeatable, but it would seem that the tournament rules have given Meta Knight a bit of an unfair edge. His bad stages are banned, and as for items... well, it simply means you can't rely on a good ol' Hammer to beat up Meta. I'd say everything else you guys have done helps Meta too otherwise he wouldn't be causing so many people to quit certain characters or even Brawl. I just don't think we can have people quitting everything like this, it gives us a bad image.

I think we can all agree that Meta Knight is a bit of a problem child, and some form of action must be taken. I'm not too sure about a ban, hey, if it's what's required to have a perfectly balanced game... I'm sure you guys can do the right thing, right?