Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Cinos_Gohegdeh]

Well if hes the best character, let him be... He can still be beaten.

 

[Vorguen]

Because I'm selfish.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Because I'm selfish.

I'm convinced.

Ban Falco.

 

[Palpi]

I have no quarrels with Meta Knights.



Ban Falco for me though.

>.<

Just blow yourself up to 30% for falco. - Doom


lol

 

[Vorguen]

I also don't like Brinstar.

Ban Brinstar.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Well, I can agree to that.
Ban Brinstar also.

What else can we ban?
I don't like counterpicking. Ban it.

 

[.AC.]

i dont like banning.ban banning for me plz

 

[aeghrur]

I don't like anyone aside from Sonic.
Let's ban them all.
I hate sonic dittos.
Let's ban that too.
Screw it, I don't like Bawrl.
Let's ban it.

 

[Vorguen]

I don't like posting. Ban posting.

 

[Biinii]

Getting off topich, eh?
Now really, every pro-ban argument is going down. From all these 400 pages of discussion, we got anti-ban owning amirite?

 

[Melomaniacal]

I vote we ban going back on topic.

 

[.AC.]

I vote we ban going back on topic.

me too lets ban it

 

[Masmasher@]

It was clearly the connotation he was going for...

Still, I hate how this thread always compiles into walls of "AHEM."

I dont know how you got that.....all i heard was he isnt the best character.you dont need to hae a auto win to be the best character. Or really another statement about how people can make any chaacter the best. Ahem captain falcon says hello.

 

[noodles]

you guys aren't bringing up any good argument as to why those things should be banned

 

[deepseadiva]

I dont know how you got that.....all i heard was he isnt the best character.you dont need to hae a auto win to be the best character. Or really another statement about how people can make any chaacter the best. Ahem captain falcon says hello.

Well, he follows up and says this:

Well if hes the best character, let him be... He can still be beaten.

It makes it pretty clear.

But forget about, this is turning into exactly what I hoped it wouldn't be. *sigh*

 

[Melomaniacal]

you guys aren't bringing up any good argument as to why those things should be banned

Neither are the pro-ban-MK people, yet the majority apparently think MK should be banned.

(ZIIING)

 

[noodles]

thats because the majority of the people posting in this thread are bad and dont wanna learn their matchups

 

[Melomaniacal]

thats because the majority of the people posting in this thread are bad and dont wanna learn their matchups

Agreed.

...ZINGER.

 

[yummynbeefy]

id like to point something out to the proban side

im pretty neutral but i am leaning towards proban and i have this to say

you guys need to get some real arguements and decent counter-arguements your patheticly losing in the arguement battle but i will help

in street fighter they argued O. Saget was the best character in the game and shoudl be banned but in the end they decided O. Saget was basicly the standard for being reasonable for the ban

meta is definately worse then O. Saget and therefore its banworthy
in all reality if it is considered to be bannable then it probably should be banned

 

[brinboy789]

meta is worse then saget? in what way?

 

[Melomaniacal]

meta is worse then saget? in what way?

Metaknight has REAL priority. Saget has fake priority. Trufax.

 

[.AC.]

id like to point something out to the proban side

im pretty neutral but i am leaning towards proban and i have this to say

you guys need to get some real arguements and decent counter-arguements your patheticly losing in the arguement battle but i will help

in street fighter they argued O. Sagat was the best character in the game and shoudl be banned but in the end they decided O. Sagat was basicly the standard for being reasonable for the ban

meta is definately worse then O. Sagat and therefore its banworthy
in all reality if it is considered to be bannable then it probably should be banned

mk isnt sagat,sf isnt brawl,O.sagat was only soft banned, and even that only happened in japan.

This is a quote from the sirlin page.

The character in question is the mysteriously named “Old Sagat.” Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he’s not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma’s air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn’t count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn’t even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don’t know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan—a soft ban—on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.” Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

If someone had made these claims in the game’s infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don’t have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can’t beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim. [/HTML]

 

[RDK]

So what if Japan soft-banned O. Sagat?

You wanna know what Japan also does? Only play on Final Destination and Yoshi's Story. Go Japan...?

 

[rehab]

More than one top japanese player has busted him out anyway, including Daigo when he came to America. Soft bans are 100% meaningless everywhere.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Er... don't soft bans basically just mean "you can use this character, but we'd all prefer it if you didn't"?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Meta Knight is nothing like O.Sagat. Let me explain O.Sagat before he gets namedropped again.

O.Sagat is 95% a terrible character in Street Fighter Super Turbo. All of the "old" characters have no super (a crippling disadvantage) and can't soften throws (which is actually bad). His normals aren't anything particularly fantastic or anything; they're certainly not enough to justify using him over N.Sagat (who, if O.Sagat sucked like most of the other old characters, would have just been referred to as "Sagat"). However, O.Sagat has one move that's radically better than N.Sagat's version, and that move is Tiger Shot.

Tiger Shot is Sagat's special projectile. He can fire it high or low, and depending on which version he does (light, medium, fierce), it might fly at different speeds. O.Sagat recovers from firing Tiger Shot obscenely fast. O.Sagat's Tiger Shot was the fastest fireball in the game (maybe Akuma had something in the league of it?). It was so spammable that a pretty significant number of characters just couldn't fight O.Sagat, especially low tier characters who had trouble with normal fireballs (like Ryu's). Even against characters with plenty of tools to compete with fireballs (like Balrog or Dhalsim), O.Sagat's strategy was what we might call degenerate. It went about like this:

Tiger Shot -> Tiger Shot -> Tiger Shot -> Tiger Shot -> Tiger Shot -> something to knock them away because they got close -> Tiger Shot...

It wasn't broken, but it wasn't what we would call exciting, deep gameplay either. Even if he's not the best, it's obvious that the game is a whole lot worse for a totally 1-dimensional character like him to be so good. The fact that he does really hurt the balance by being the worst matchup for a good number of characters (as I recall, it was about 1/3 of the cast which includes Chun Li who was good otherwise) is not helpful for his case.

Lastly, you have to consider that O.Sagat was probably not even designed with the serious intention of being a balanced part of the cast. He's just Sagat from the previous version of Street Fighter 2. All the old characters are the same as their corresponding selves from that previous version. The ability to select and play as them is kinda like an easter egg (you have to enter a hidden code to play as them); the fact that N.Sagat's Tiger Shot is so nerfed (probably nerfed way too much; N.Sagat is generally considered a bad character) is an argument that the game was designed with N.Sagat in mind and that O.Sagat actually being used just didn't cross the designer's minds (they probably just discounted the old characters as significant on the basis of not having supers).

All that said, this isn't an argument that O.Sagat should be banned in Super Turbo, but it should be really clear that he's nothing like Meta Knight. Meta Knight was obviously designed to be a part of the game, Meta Knight has more than one move that makes him good, Meta Knight's winning strategies aren't particularly degenerate, and Meta Knight isn't the worst matchup for 1/3 of the cast (if you disagree on the last point, feel free to list 12 characters whose worst matchup is Meta Knight).

 

[salaboB]

More than one top japanese player has busted him out anyway, including Daigo when he came to America. Soft bans are 100% meaningless everywhere.

I like that. "when he came to America" like it's something he shouldn't have done because the character was soft banned where he came from -- because sticking to a home rule makes perfect sense when you're visiting somewhere else with its own set of rules...

 

[Masmasher@]

More than one top japanese player has busted him out anyway, including Daigo when he came to America. Soft bans are 100% meaningless everywhere.

Not entirely true. In japan its a huge part of the culture. Specially as they have arcades everywhere. They have honor, certain rules and guidelines. While in america it might go over looked if you were to go into a arcade in japan and simply break there rules. (i.e picking banned characters) you would be ridiculed.... and treated like a sub human.

 

[RDK]

Not entirely true. In japan its a huge part of the culture. Specially as they have arcades everywhere. They have honor, certain rules and guidelines. While in america it might go over looked if you were to go into a arcade in japan and simply break there rules. (i.e picking banned characters) you would be ridiculed.... and treated like a sub human.

Fortunately for American (and probably European) culture, there's no such thing as "honor" in competition. Anything not strictly prohibited by the rules is fair play.

I.E., we're not whiny scrubs.

 

[Delvro]

thats because the majority of the people posting in this thread are bad and dont wanna learn their matchups

I see this argument a lot on the WoW forums... please don't bring the "you're wrong because you suck at this game" trash.

Honestly it all comes to varying standards between us players when it comes to banning Meta-Knight. I don't take the "ban Meta-Knight only if the finals of every large tournament is Meta-Knight vs Meta-Knight" approach, ala Sirlin's approach (although it's more complex than that, I know.), but I fully understand why other people would.

I just feel that taking him out would create a deeper game with more variety in tournament play. Also, I think it would increase the importance of knowing a lot of matchups well, because, let's face it, most of us spend the plurality of our time fighting and learning how to fight Meta-Knight!

I don't blame people that disagree with me, because honestly my view is not one with the professional big tournament-goer community in mind... and on some level it is just a little selfish. But I DO honestly feel that if Brawl was made without Meta-Knight (that is, if he was never brought in to the game), then the competitive scene of Brawl would be healthier and the game itself more enjoyable.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I question how Brawl without MK would be funner. Most top tiers are camping whores last time I checked, MK doesn't have to be a camping ***** to do good.

 

[Tommy_G]

you guys aren't bringing up any good argument as to why those things should be banned

Because there are no good arguments why MK should be banned.

 

[Masmasher@]

I question how Brawl without MK would be funner. Most top tiers are camping whores last time I checked, MK doesn't have to be a camping ***** to do good.

That really speaks about the games engine/design as a whole rather then just the characters.

 

[Brinzy]

True, but it is still something to think about, at least for those who keep throwing out the "fun" arguments. They may be invalid for many things, but I suppose it does make a difference if we do things to keep players around and thus get a stronger community, or at least one that will help flesh out the tournament scene.

 

[kingcobra9]

if mk is banned then people will complain how snake and his utilt are so great and his explosives kill well and there can be some sort of argument to ban any player on the cast but that would be stupid. if mk is just so bad it isn't fun anymore go back to melee

 

[ShadowLink84]

I swear if the slippery slope argument comes up one more time, I am going to shout GANON BAN! and the offending individual shall be perma-banned.

 

[salaboB]

I swear if the slippery slope argument comes up one more time, I am going to shout GANON BAN! and the offending individual shall be perma-banned.

But once it gets to the point of Ganon being banned it'll just be Captain Falcon left, and that will be epic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I have already suggested we have a Captain Falcon tournament.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I swear if the slippery slope argument comes up one more time, I am going to shout GANON BAN! and the offending individual shall be perma-banned.

It's "GANNON BAN!"

But once it gets to the point of Ganon being banned it'll just be Captain Falcon left, and that will be epic.

Way to miss the joke.

26. Using the slippery slope argument in a brawl ban discussion.

 

[salaboB]

Way to miss the joke.

26. Using the slippery slope argument in a brawl ban discussion.

Missing the joke being a problem would have required that I cared to follow it in the first place. I liked mine better