Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[CRASHiC]

Yeah, the speed version is the one I meant. I am unsure about weather Garchomp is deserving of being banned, but D-S deserves it.
My point there being that bans are almost always controversial.
Even Akuma came with some argument strangely.

Yes, but then you're also known to lie.

Also, I edited my previous post before you posted your reply. Please reply to it in its entirety, such as the part where I accuse you of deceit.

No. I didn't lie. I was misinformed. You sure like strong loaded words. You must think it makes you sound scary.

What "stands" about Seibrik's point? There's nothing wrong with switching to a better character if you think that will make you do better. There's never been anything wrong with it. "Oh I have to play against a lot of MK's and that's kind of difficult and I don't get as much fun from whatever vs. MK matchup I'm playing as I do from other characters and I dun really wannnnaaaaa" is a ****baby reason for caving in and banning a character when he's just good.

Seibrik is top Metaknight in Florida. He is hardly a crybaby.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Yeah, the speed version is the one I meant. I am unsure about weather Garchomp is deserving of being banned, but D-S deserves it.
My point there being that bans are almost always controversial.
Even Akuma came with some argument strangely.

:flame:
Until we can find plans that can prove Garchomp to have "counters" (which aren't the same as Brawl's Counters), Garchomp probably will stay banned (although the only one that is really that good is the Yachechomp, and depending on it's moves, Mamoswine and bulky Ice-Shard users can take it down). D-S is the fasted Pokemon in existance. It actually has good bulk, and good offenses. It would have been a normal everyday Pokemon, but it is faster than The Flash on Meth. It definitely deserves to be banned as well.

Most people will find bans to be too far, but if it is warrented by a Majority of the game's community or more, or something especially "rigged" comes into play (the berries that made Ice-Moves not instantly kill people, specifically the Yacheberry that makes it hard to instantly kill with Icebeam while being able to switch in, take one of it's hard hits, and outspeed and kill), then the ban would probably go through. Metaknight's cape was something that bad, but without the Infinite Glitch, there isn't really much of anything that Metaknight has that makes his as bad as Garchomp.

And the only time I really hard about Akuma trying to be spared the ban is when he was "nerfed". They made a new game, and specifically tried to weaken him. And he was STILL too strong.
:flame:

 

[PolMex23]

Mk eliminates half the cast....

Including Garchomp

 

[Pez55]

MK is the counter pick to everything...

 

[NeoCrono]

Some of you guys should play Street Fighter 4. I did 70 matches yesterday and went against 62 Kens. Is MK that bad?

It's very annoying, but you always almost play nothing but flowchart kens so just play rose and soul throw them whenever they jump. Or just punish there wiffed Shoryukens

 

[Red Arremer]

Mk eliminates half the cast....

How?
With 60:40 matchups? lmao.

Or does Brawl only have only 6 characters, of which three are Marth, ROB and Peach?

MK is the counter pick to everything...

How?
With 60:40 matchups? lmao².

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Shockingly enough, you're, like, the 10th person to say this that I've personally taken note of. Meanwhile, I haven't seen a single person decide to switch from anti-ban to pro-ban after reading the arguments of both sides. Hmmmmmmmm...


Akuma was not on MK's level or just simply better than him. Akuma was on a whole new, trascendent level, far above everyone else in fighting game history.

Also, IIRC, it took them 1 year to ban Akuma, when tournaments were literally Akuma, Akuma, Akuma, Akuma, Akuma.

I used to be anti-ban. What then? Snakeee also used to be anti-ban. Didn't fiction also used to be anti-ban?

You love to cherry-pick.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
Polmex23 and Pez55, those weren't the most informed comments... This is a real important issue, and honestly, crappy oneliners with no explination or forethought isn't helping anyone. People like you that tilt the votes really should read before you make said comments and effect the scales.

Care to attempt to expound upon what you said? Who exactly does Metaknight eliminate? (and if you say that he eliminates Garchomp again, I'm just going to ignore you because that was a dumb-as-brick comment) As far as I know, he's only the worst match up for like, Marth and 2 others possibly? How is 3 out of almost 40 half the cast?

And exactly how much tournament play do you have that gives you the insite that Metaknight is the counter pick to everything? He's a good enough character that people with skill can use him in most situations, but he's not perfect...

Edit:Spade, you beat me to it. I was playing RE5, so I was a little slow. Darn you.

Edit-Edit:SuperModelFromParis, this is the one time where Yuna probably should have been more specific than he/she was. Has there honestly, with all truth so help your life/mind/body/spirit/soul, been anyone that has kept up with the debate, read the most intelligent points from both sides (not "Metaknight eliminates half the cast, including Garchomp), and actually decided to move from Antiban to Proban from this? People at the beginning that voted on past debates went from Antiban to Proban, but I haven't seen too many myself (unless you decided to change recently) that stayed for the entire time, and moved from Anti to Proban.
:flame:

 

[CRASHiC]

My avatar, this thread.
for a third time

 

[Red Arremer]

My avatar, this thread.
for a third time

Yea. The more ridiculous your avatar, the more ridiculous this thread, lol.

 

[CRASHiC]

Yea. The more ridiculous your avatar, the more ridiculous this thread, lol.

And I worry.
As this thread gets worse, will I be able to find a crazier avatar to keep up?

 

[Red Arremer]

And I worry.
As this thread gets worse, will I be able to find a crazier avatar to keep up?

There's so many things on the net that's nuts, I'm sure something can display this thread.

 

[BentoBox]

Some of you guys should play Street Fighter 4. I did 70 matches yesterday and went against 62 Kens. Is MK that bad?

You have to realize that playing SF4 online is the very same as playing Brawl on Wifi with Anyone. Get past 2k gp and the kens will filter themselves out.

 

[Yuna]

My point there being that bans are almost always controversial.
Even Akuma came with some argument strangely.

Yeah, bad ones.

No. I didn't lie. I was misinformed. You sure like strong loaded words. You must think it makes you sound scary.

You blatantly lied/made stuff up/exaggerated like hell. You claimed that I was in some way spamming match-up arguments and that before I came into the thread, almost no one was using them.

Did someone tell you that or did you actually see it happen in an alternate universe SWF? Or did you just make it up? Either way, it was a lie. Just because it wasn't intentional doesn't make it any less of a lie.

I used to be anti-ban. What then? Snakeee also used to be anti-ban. Didn't fiction also used to be anti-ban?

You love to cherry-pick.

You love to not read people's posts in their entirety and cherry-pick which words to reply to.

Fiction did not go from anti-ban to pro-ban because he read the arguments of both sides and then decided that the opposing side had better arguments. We know for a fact that his switch in idealogies was due to something else. Do you know for a fact that Snakeee switched sides because of the arguments? Did you switch sides because of the arguments?

Even if the answer to all three is "Yes" (which it is not, since we know for a fact that Fiction switched for other reasons), you're still cherry-picking what to reply to and you won't be able to "win" this argument.

Why? Because I was specifically talking about people who have, in the "Ban MK"-threads (the 3 official ones to date), declared that they have gone from pro-ban to anti-ban (or vice versa) only after reading the arguments of both sides and decided that the opposing side had better arguments. And AFAIK, neither Fiction, nor Snakeee, have declared such a thing in any of the threads.

I also specifically said "That I have personally taken note of.". I don't read every single post in every single thread. I could very well have missed a few. But you're still cherry-picking.

Not to mention that almost every single post following my first one on the subject specifically reiterates the "after reading the arguments"-argument since so many people (read: pro-banners) kept missing it.

Somehow, you managed to distort the following:
"People who have, in the "Ban MK"-threads, declared that they have switched from pro-ban to anti-ban (or vice versa) after reading both sides' arguments and weighed them against each other."
into
"People who have switched sides in the argument"

Clearly, you're cherry-picking like crazy, omitting entire sentences and posts. Hypocrisy is alive and well, I see.

 

[|RK|]

Lol, did Crash say that Xyro had good arguments? No offense to Xyro, but all his arguments were like, "Try an MK banned tourney; they're more fun". Trust me, I read the entire topic. I even refuted some of the stuff being brought back up, but I don't feel like it anymore. Yuna's doing a good job.

 

[CRASHiC]

Yeah, bad ones.


You blatantly lied/made stuff up/exaggerated like hell. You claimed that I was in some way spamming match-up arguments and that before I came into the thread, almost no one was using them.

Did someone tell you that or did you actually see it happen in an alternate universe SWF? Or did you just make it up? Either way, it was a lie. Just because it wasn't intentional doesn't make it any less of a lie.

First off, lies are intentional.
From dictionary.com
A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Learn the English language.

I've followed this thread from the beginning, and already posted examples of leading arguments made by top anti-ban people of the arguments being made.

Lol, did Crash say that Xyro had good arguments? No offense to Xyro, but all his arguments were like, "Tray an MK banned tourney; they;re more fun". Trust me, I read the entire topic. I even refuted some of the stuff being brought back up, but I don't feel like it anymore. Yuna's doing a good job.

Xyro's arguments are much stronger than that. I'm going to attempt to dig them up.

 

[Red Arremer]

I used to be anti-ban. What then? Snakeee also used to be anti-ban. Didn't fiction also used to be anti-ban?

You love to cherry-pick.

Says the one using WHOBO and even SINGLE TOURNAMENT MATCHES as "arguments" for a ban, whereas it is clear that this is not displaying the metagame as a whole.

 

[|RK|]

I know Yuna's arguments are stronger than mine.

I still did refute other points.

I did however get stopped by Eyada...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Even if the answer to all three is "Yes" (which it is not, since we know for a fact Fiction switched for other reasons), you're still cherry-picking what to reply to and you won't be able to "win" this argument.

Why? Because I was specifically talking about people who, in the "Ban MK"-threads (the 3 official ones to date) have go from pro-ban to anti-ban (or vice versa) only after reading the arguments of both sides and decided that the opposing side had better arguments.

No, I don't reply to your entire posts because I get exhausted just reading a single one. Your aggressive, offensive, long-winded style of argumentation is off-putting and is not condusive to a debate with a positive outcome (regardless of what it actually is).

None of what you've even said matters. Fighting game history doesn't matter. Brawl is not a fighting game in the traditional sense and characters are not sacred no matter how much you keep spouting on about them. Even if they were, it's appeal to tradition. Look that up, buddy. Tournament results are in the pro-ban argument's favor.

Every time you start posting, you say the same ****. "That's not good enough." Well, I think it is good enough. The whole argument is opinion. There's no fact here. There's no definitive answer. We're going back and forth over how we think a situation in the game should be handled.

Cold, hard reality (and I mean, non-idealist, no-bull**** reality) is this: Meta Knight is ****ing ridiculous and it's not going away. There's not going to be some hero character or AT discovered in the next year or two years or five years that magically makes MK less prominent, less important, less absurdly centralizing. It isn't going to decrease the sense that not picking up MK as a secondary at the very least makes you less competitive. Nothing is going to be discovered that makes competitive players less inclined to do what makes them win. You don't have a problem with that? You don't care that most people are playing one character? You think that's just the way fighting games are? Are you really going to claim to be the most logical person here and ****ing appeal to tradition in the same breath, you *******?

Well, *******, I do have a problem with it and as of right now, at least 48.70% of the people who voted in this poll do, as well as at least half the SBR. Even more of them are waiting for the Apex and Genesis results if you were standing next to me, you couldn't look me in the eye and tell me what you thought the results were going to be without there being at least six MK mains and secondaries in the top 10.

That is reality. Get your head out of the god ****ed sand.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Is it just me or is something up with the page linking in this thread? There seems to be 2 or 3 extra pages (including a last page link) that just seem to take you to the same spot - the last post...

I'm not going to vote because I truly can't appreciate how bad MK is since I don't go to tourneys but...I wouldn't say he's really that banworthy. He's good, granted but it's not like he shuts every character out. It's not like he has an infinite on everyone and whilst he hasn't got any disadvantaged match ups as far as I'm aware, there are characters who at least go 55:45 or 60:40 with him. Surely that means that people just have to be better...though I guess that's not a great arguement...

 

[Red Arremer]

Even more of them are waiting for the Apex and Genesis results if you were standing next to me, you couldn't look me in the eye and tell me what you thought the results were going to be without there being at least six MK mains and secondaries in the top 10.

LMAO!

What was WHOBO's results? The tournament having almost all of the best Meta Knight players but almost NOONE of the best Non-Meta Knight players? Wasn't it like, six out of the Top 10, too?
Mind you, I don't count Lee Martin as MK, because he used MK in one set, which was against CO18's Dedede, one of Lucario's hardest matchups, and never again after that.

Believe me, if there's Ally, Reflex, Atomsk, DEHF and whom else... Meta Knight will NOT take 6 out of Top 10. No. He will take at most 4, and 2 out of those 4 are Mew2King and Dojo, two incredible players.

 

[Brinzy]

Fighting game history doesn't matter. Brawl is not a fighting game in the traditional sense and characters are not sacred no matter how much you keep spouting on about them. Even if they were, it's appeal to tradition. Look that up, buddy.

Fighting game history does matter because it is a good model as to what happens when you remove/ignore certain aspects of the game.

Brawl may not be a traditional fighter, but that alone does not mean that characters are more subjective to a ban.

Stop talking about "appeal to this and that", because honestly, a lot of stuff you say could be thrown under similar roofs.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LMAO!

What was WHOBO's results? The tournament having almost all of the best Meta Knight players but almost NOONE of the best Non-Meta Knight players? Wasn't it like, six out of the Top 10, too?
Mind you, I don't count Lee Martin as MK, because he used MK in one set, which was against CO18's Dedede, one of Lucario's hardest matchups, and never again after that.

Believe me, if there's Ally, Reflex, Atomsk, DEHF and whom else... Meta Knight will NOT take 6 out of Top 10. No. He will take at most 4, and 2 out of those 4 are Mew2King and Dojo, two incredible players.

The point is there's no ****ing measurement for what makes a character banworthy. None. Unless you take Sirlin's account as golden, in which case Meta Knight is banworthy because it would be that much better a game without him, but Sirlin's just one guy.

Fighting game history does matter because it is a good model as to what happens when you remove/ignore certain aspects of the game.

Brawl may not be a traditional fighter, but that alone does not mean that characters are more subjective to a ban.

Stop talking about "appeal to this and that", because honestly, a lot of stuff you say could be thrown under similar roofs.

You didn't even read my ****ing post. Things that happened in past fighting games dont' matter. We're talking about Smash Bros, not Street Fighter and we're talking about Meta Knight and not Sagat.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

double post

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Is it just me or is something up with the page linking in this thread? There seems to be 2 or 3 extra pages (including a last page link) that just seem to take you to the same spot - the last post...

I'm not going to vote because I truly can't appreciate how bad MK is since I don't go to tourneys but...I wouldn't say he's really that banworthy. He's good, granted but it's not like he shuts every character out. It's not like he has an infinite on everyone and whilst he hasn't got any disadvantaged match ups as far as I'm aware, there are characters who at least go 55:45 or 60:40 with him. Surely that means that people just have to be better...though I guess that's not a great arguement...

:flame:
About the posts, it seems that Mods (or some divine all powerful being 'not Metaknight') have deleted some of the more spammy posts, resulting in extra pages of posts that are unreadable. Most everyone is having that issue.

And thank you for not voting if you aren't fully knowledgeable about what's going on. I hate young people that haven't even gone to their first tournament, get on smashboards once, and then say crappy oneliners about him deserving/notdeserving to be banned. It pisses me off, so much, like people that would vote for Obama just because he's Black. That pissed me off too. I'm glad there are people like you that don't just vote without thinking about it.

And as for your arguement, there are plenty of other issues at hand besides his characters gameplay, but one of the biggest things is that the true worst thing Metaknight can do to someone is Planking, and that's something everyone can do (granted, some not quite as well as MK). Other than that, Metaknight can't really do anything that bad, and most matchups with characters like Snake, DiddyKong, Wario, Dedede, and others (I think the Lucario boards just felt like bendingover backwards for him) can go even with Metaknight, at which point, the game is more of a matter of skill than "pick x-character = win". And that's probably what the game should be like. Your argument (hopefully you can look and find ways to bolster it) is a very valid one.
:flame:

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And thank you for not voting if you aren't fully knowledgeable about what's going on. I hate young people that haven't even gone to their first tournament, get on smashboards once, and then say crappy oneliners about him deserving/notdeserving to be banned. It pisses me off, so much, like people that would vote for Obama just because he's Black. That pissed me off too. I'm glad there are people like you that don't just vote without thinking about it.

Please. They posted this thread here for a reason. If they didnt' want thoughtless opinions like yours in the thread they would have kept it in the SBR (and probably should have).

EDIT: LOL at Yuna probably quoting my post line by line and responding to every single one with an aggressive, substanceless argument that no one has time or energy to reply to.

 

[Red Arremer]

I love how you're getting all insulting, lol. Swearing won't get you any further.

The point is there's no ****ing measurement for what makes a character banworthy. None.

If there's no measurement why to take a character out of a game... why do you want to do, then?

I have no idea what "Sirlin's account" has to do anything with the matter, so I'll just take the part of the sentence I understand the sense of...

Meta Knight is banworthy because it would be that much better a game without him

Do you think that? Wow. You sure must hate Meta Knight. I actually find him a cool character and like playing as him. I also like playing against Meta Knight. For me, Brawl would actually be a much better game if there wasn't Marth and Dedede's Chaingrabs. But that's my personal opinion, and in a debate, something as subjective is not really helpful.
And believe me, I really really really really HATE facing Marth or a chaingrabbing Dedede.

 

[Brinzy]

Really? I didn't?

"Fighting game history does not matter."

"Brawl is not a fighting game in the traditional sense and characters are not sacred no matter how much you keep spouting on about them."

"Even if they were, it's appeal to tradition."

Pretty sure my three lines go with that. Yes, I read the rest of your post, but I didn't want to reply to the rest of your drivel because I don't care about it.

Things that happened in past fighting games dont' matter. We're talking about Smash Bros, not Street Fighter and we're talking about Meta Knight and not Sagat.

Then say that. Don't say "fighting game history doesn't matter" because you have concrete proof as to what happens when you let certain aspects of a game stay unbanned and what happens when you ban them. That is why history in general is important.

Either way, your first sentence is false, no matter how much you want to say that I didn't read your post.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Do you think that? Wow. You sure must hate Meta Knight. I actually find him a cool character and like playing as him. I also like playing against Meta Knight. For me, Brawl would actually be a much better game if there wasn't Marth and Dedede's Chaingrabs. But that's my personal opinion, and in a debate, something as subjective is not really helpful.
And believe me, I really really really really HATE facing Marth or a chaingrabbing Dedede.

Chaingrabs going away wouldn't suddenly validate half the cast, but keep trying.

 

[Red Arremer]

Chaingrabs going away wouldn't suddenly validate half the cast, but keep trying.

Oh, so Brawl really DOES have only 6 characters?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Please. They posted this thread here for a reason. If they didnt' want thoughtless opinions like yours in the thread they would have kept it in the SBR (and probably should have).

:flame:
I'd like to say that I've put much more thought than the average person into many of my statements. Granted, I haven't had the time to go extrapulate the electronic codes to pull some of the biggest arguement points out of thin air (like AmazingAmpharos did, and I'm still psyched about that post of his), but I've usually talked a little more than (HE'S LESS RIGGED THAN MARTH'S DASH ATTACK, BAN MARTH INSTEAD) or (He eliminates everyone... including Garchomp). I don't mean to be cocky, but I feel that my posts are far greater than "thoughtless". For someone remarking on how Yuna is being offensive, you weren't exactly nice. And I'm quite sure the SBR values the views of people that aim for actual tournaments than people that just appeared and are still trying to figure out what's going on, not even knowing if they are interested in the compeditive scene or not.

And in actuality, wouldn't chaingrabs not being in the game make Fox much better (since Pikachu wouldn't **** him so bad), Lucas and Ness better (no more being infinited), many of Falco's victims would do great without him instantly spiking them to their deaths after 6 unblockable grabs (his Lasers aren't that good against anyone with reflexes, but grabs stop small attacks from flinching the character grabbing), and Dedede would probably go down (since a huge part of his game is his grab game).
:flame:

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Then say that. Don't say "fighting game history doesn't matter" because you have concrete proof as to what happens when you let certain aspects of a game stay unbanned and what happens when you ban them. That is why history in general is important.

Either way, your first sentence is false, no matter how much you want to say that I didn't read your post.

It doesn't ****ing matter. You're not taking the message out of my post:

Banning Meta Knight is not a bad decision because they didn't ban Sagat in Street Fighter. Banning Old Sagat may have been a good idea or not. We won't ever know, actually, because gamers (competitive ones) are conservative dip****s who think opinions like these make them "more hardcore" than "scrubs" who want a character banned. OK, us scrubs will just pick up MK and own your main at the next tourney or four. Bet they won't be scrubs then!

History is not an especially solid indication of what happens when you do something anyway. Only idiots think that, especially in this case.

 

[|RK|]

Supermodel. Literally the smartest thing in this thread that you've said is "double post". Also the most accurate. You are wrong on so many levels, and I don't care how aggressive Yuna's tone is. Your tone is aggressive too, but the only difference is that Yuna's posts contain intelligence and sense.

As for Demon, he is right and his opinions are not thoughtless. Honestly, if you can't contribute to this discussion, which you have proved time and time again your inability to, then get out. The only person that ever helped the pro-ban argument intelligently that I can think of is Eyada and thrillagorilla. The first is unsure and the latter switched to anti-ban. People like you are hurting your own side. Stop. Please.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Supermodel. Literally the smartest thing in this thread that you've said is "double post". Also the most accurate. You are wrong on so many levels, and I don't care how aggressive Yuna's tone is. Your tone is aggressive too, but the only difference is that Yuna's posts contain intelligence and sense.

As for Demon, he is right and his opinions are not thoughtless. Honestly, if you can't contribute to this discussion, which you have proved time and time again, then get out. The only person that ever helped the pro-ban argument intelligently that I can think of is Eyada and thrillagorilla. The first is unsure and the latter switched to anti-ban. People like you are hurting your own side. Stop. Please.

I was pretty calm and reasonable earlier in the thread. I'm pretty much done with that.

 

[|RK|]

I was pretty calm and reasonable earlier in the thread. I'm pretty much done with that.

And this will help you how...?

 

[Kewkky]

Banning Meta Knight is not a bad decision because they didn't ban Sagat in Street Fighter. Banning Old Sagat may have been a good idea or not. We won't ever know, actually, because gamers (competitive ones) are conservative dip****s who think opinions like these make them "more hardcore" than "scrubs" who want a character banned. OK, us scrubs will just pick up MK and own your main at the next tourney or four. Bet they won't be scrubs then!

Random scrubs picking MK won't dominate. I assure you of that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And this will help you how...?

It won't, but I'm of the opinion that pretty much nothing will. Nothing will convince the competitive gamer that anything but the most hardcore resistant-to-change response possible is the correct response.

Nothing. So I might as well get mad about it!

 

[Red Arremer]

I was pretty calm and reasonable earlier in the thread. I'm pretty much done with that.

So you troll and throw out insults instead? Neat.

That sure proves how good the arguments of the Pro-Ban-Side are.

History of other gaming communities in similar situations: Doesn't matter - why? Isn't answered.
The FACT that Meta Knight only destroys 3 characters that are viable: Doesn't matter - why? Isn't answered.
Meta Knight not being played by everyone: Doesn't matter - why? Isn't answered.
Personal insults and throwing around strong wording: Oh, there we are. Neat-o!

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
This isn't the kinda place where we need to be outwardly mean to eachother. No one from either side is right for being aggressive. As previously stated, this is a very important debate. This decision could change the way the Super Smash Bros Series runs in the future. We should be as rational and respectful as we can be.
:flame:

 

[Falconv1.0]

I had to ignore him because the amount of sheer ****ing fail was ****ing ludicrous.