Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Nic64]

(If multiple other characters when played at equal skill were advantaged vs. MK he would not have as many wins as he has compared to them, they'd be able to beat him and claim that top position.)

not necessarily, snake for instance may be at an advantage to MK, but half of the top tier counters him, just because someone can beat MK doesn't make them better than MK. I think the only thing ankoku's chart proves is that MK is really ****ing dominant, you can't use it to prove how a specific character does against him.

 

[meta master]

this thread is becoming pointless...

 

[salaboB]

not necessarily, snake for instance may be at an advantage to MK, but half of the top tier counters him, just because someone can beat MK doesn't make them better than MK. I think the only thing ankoku's chart proves is that MK is really ****ing dominant, you can't use it to prove how a specific character does against him.

It can show some things; if a character really did well against MK, they should rise on the chart. Like you said, MK is really dominant -- doing well against him will mean more wins, because there are so many MKs out there.

this thread is becoming pointless...

"becoming"? You're giving it more benefit of the doubt than I would >.>

 

[Atomsk_92]

=
Light weight is not exploitable dude.
You can live to 200%.
Uair~jump. You're good to go.


You can survive Snake's Utilt past 180% by doing it.

.

**** if m2k dies at 140% from the weak part of snake's u-air i don't see you living to 200% unless its on like japes

 

[M15t3R E]

nt true. Snake just has t show he is on the rise to a noticeable degree.
Snake will never be #1, he has bad matchups and exploitable weaknesses.

That's exactly what I said. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you, but what I meant is that tournament results need to indicate MK and Snake going even by Snake catching up to MK as a decent pace.
Then, and only then, can we give Ulevo and Inui's arguments some merit.

 

[Justblaze647]

That's exactly what I said. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you, but what I meant is that tournament results need to indicate MK and Snake going even by Snake catching up to MK as a decent pace.
Then, and only then, can we give Ulevo and Inui's arguments some merit.

Until then, their word is not law, so stop acting like it is...

 

[Inui]

You can survive Snake's Utilt past 180% by doing it.

Okay, Overswarm.

Oh, wait, what he said and what you said = complete garbage.

**** if m2k dies at 140% from the weak part of snake's u-air i don't see you living to 200% unless its on like japes

QFT

It was at 125%, btw. That early.

 

[salaboB]

Okay, Overswarm.

Oh, wait, what he said and what you said = complete garbage.

It was uair, not utilt.

 

[ShadowLink84]

**** if m2k dies at 140% from the weak part of snake's u-air i don't see you living to 200% unless its on like japes

Its very doable atomsk.
DI to the side then Uair~jump.

The ceiling works off of the knockback resulting from an opponents attack.
So once you jump, even if you have high momentum, you'll still survive.

Srt of like I had myself shot into the air with a bo-mb as sonic then double jump~ spring~spring(I was shot by Pit's arrow) and didn't die despite hitting the ceiling,

 

[Ulevo]

You're the one making assumptions, I'm going off the current known facts. And that's really all it comes down to for the rest of your points -- I'm basing my arguments off the actual results and how things are happening, you're basing yours off of peoples' opinions and your own beliefs. This is just like when you declared so confidently that Peach was bad on Jungle Japes and you'd stick with that opinion, even after multiple people explained why you were wrong (Including one video of how annoying it was to finish off a Peach on that level). You're mixing your own beliefs into your argument and trying to claim them as facts.

What facts do you have to go off from other than Ankokus list, which clearly only determines a characters dominance and nothing more? I haven't tried to prove anything factual during the course of my debate with you. I've merely tried to disprove your argument based on CPs because you're going off of assumptions on match ups. You have nothing credible to retreat to as to why Meta Knight doesn't in fact had a disadvantage against a character aside from Snake, and you're using that as your only resource.

And my argument regarding Peach ended when an factual response was given to me. Prior to that, the poster had done nothing but try to discredit the idea with random blabbering. Human beings do not relinquish their reasoning until proven wrong with something that makes sense. I remember people not approving of my rudeness, however I do not recall anyone other than the Peach main disagreeing with me. Maybe there were others, I don't really care. You're not proving anything about this discussion by trying to point out my tendency to stick with my opinion, because everyone does until given a reason not to. You clearly haven't.

And laugh out loud at you using that video as a reference. Bento was ***** on that stage.

Saying I'm making an assumption that the worst matchup is 55:45 is wrong because it is what is currently proven. To say anything else is true is you making an assumption.

I haven't made any claims at all as to what Meta Knights disadvantages were in this discussion. You have. Please tell me how I am making the assumptions. You are making the statistical claims here, and providing no actual references as to where these are coming from. How the hell is 55:45 Snake on Meta Knight proven? You've done nothing but run your mouth off to attempt and prove me wrong, but haven't directed me anywhere to say it is true.

M2K believes Sheik is the best character in Melee.

He also believes Meta Knight isn't broken.

Fox also took more technical skill to get up to that level than the others -- so if you lacked that, you were in fact better off with a different character. MK does not require more technical ability to raise him above the other characters. In fact, to even come close to even against him many of them must have better technical ability. Fox fails as a direct comparison to MK.

Ease of use does not translate in to character potential. We're talking about character potential.

I'm going by NinjaLink's own words. Who else should I be putting priority for quoting about his performance than himself?

No one else, obviously, other than maybe a TO that provides you an actual tournament record. But NinjaLink's words don't go in to detail about anything other than "I beat Meta Knights all the time with multiple characters". If all those Meta Knights are terrible players, then that mean anything. Obviously this isn't the case, as he beats players like Forte, Plank and M2K. But M2K is better than NinjaLink is. There are too many factors you simply aren't taking in to consideration by just quoting someone and using it as a means to justify your opinion.

Tournament results. Go look through all the results and find me multiple examples where all these characters that you claim might be advantaged vs. MK actually are taking down multiple MKs to claim the top position. If they only beat one it's nice but not really proof of it -- an advantage should be allowing them to defeat multiple MKs to claim that top spot. Oh, I can link you to the NinjaLink thing from a credible source, here...

Tell me, where can I find a more credible source to refer to NL from than this? He hasn't said anything retracting it since he posted this either.

I already called the other poster an idiot for this. Please provide me information pertaining to the character match ups themselves from pro or credible players.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

I don't see what the big deal about Meta Knight is.
He's fast and can rack up damage (abit slowly). Get over it.

It's true he's good, but really can't win against a good Snake, Ike or Luigi.

LOL



This is almost sig worthy.......

 

[ShadowLink84]

I already called the other poster an idiot for this. Please provide me information pertaining to the character match ups themselves from valid arguments.

Fix'd.


being a top player has nothing to do with having a valid argument.

 

[salaboB]

I already called the other poster an idiot for this.

Great job proving your point! I'd note that this is in fact about all you did.

Please provide me information pertaining to the character match ups themselves from pro or credible players.

You want to claim something other than what current tournament results indicate, you provide the proof.

 

[BrawlLover]

Yes the tournament results are not lying, I've taken my time to carefully evaluate each big tourney across the map, I mean, I hate to say it, MK seems to be substantially better than the rest. I still don't understand though, probably cause I don't play that char...

 

[adumbrodeus]

this only reflects a change in opinion, fluctuations happen. why is it suspect when people change their mind and say MK does have one even matchup/soft counter but not when they flipped on that in the first place? saying that "lol people only say snake > MK now because they don't want MK banned" is equatable to "people only said MK > snake because they wanted him banned", we can all make BS arguments about where peoples motives lie...and for that matter, most people are sheep, half of them aren't really "deciding" anything. MK being broken is now a popular consensus opinion and so many people will jump on the bandwagon without even being able to justify it themselves.

Because the change-over happened prior to this whole mess.

Barring a few hold-outs such as M2K, when MKs learned to space (which was when he became top in tournament standings) it became pretty much universally accepted that Snake beats MK.

This was a major change-over that changed the situation from very limited calls to ban Snake, (which was idiotic in the first place, because MK was ALWAYS controlling the metagame by playing elimination, therefore was always the most bannable character, Snake was only top because he beat MK at the time, and even now, he beats weak MKs which is why he's number 2), to MK being accepted as top tier, to very low calls for banning, to the current furor which we have now.

This is not a sudden change-over, this is established fact, and was so prior to anyone saying that MK was bannable (myself and others who accepted the my argument excluded, because that was mere possibility in an unforseeable future). The fact that I think that banning MK is fundamentally too early a measure doesn't mean I can't see that the anti-ban crowd is grasping for any possible disadvantagious match-up in order to prevent a ban.

Anyways, what am I spouting that has been refuted? Snake beats Meta Knight. That's never been actually refuted because tournament data at the highest levels shows that this is true and most good players agree with MK losing to Snake.

Only because you believe the "highest levels of play" = "Atlantic North".

Regardless, it's an appeal to authority fallacy. FACTS dictate match-ups, not personalities.

"omg if u space the d-tilt frame perfectly and pixel perfectly ull **** snake!1!!!!1"

When a factual refutation fails, you resort to appeal to ridicule?

Is it any wonder why people have such a low opinion of your debating skill?

While it doesn't mean you're wrong, lack of a valid counter-argument doesn't help your opinion.


Heck, I agree with your overall opinion about MK (too soon to ban him), but your terrible arguments force me to oppose you.

okay cool and what about what's actually possible and what about other moves which snake *****?????

So... spacing isn't possible. I dunno, I think just about any Marth player will disagree with you, in both theory and practice.

Sure, you can be mindgamed, but assuming that a player will be mindgamed results in us all agreeing that Ike's f-smash is the best move in the game.

If people learned how to powershield consistently, punish with proper options, and DI well, MK wouldn't be nearly as troublesome. He's only "broken" on the garbage level of skill.

Against what?

We're dealing with reaction times of 7 frames aprox.

How do you expect to consistently powershield a frame 3 attack if you react to it on frame 7?

Nah, it's just my favourite point to make. It's also hilarious when people say MK doesn't lose the match-up and it's funny when people do so because they're usually randoms and then top players like me, Mew2King, Atomsk, and NinjaLink can come in and say otherwise and get ignored despite being billions of times better and more educated on Brawl.

Firstly, I son't remember Ninjalink actually agreeing with either side on this, a post citating would be nice.

Regardless, appeal to authority fallacy.


As I explained MANY times because, being a good player gives no edge to interpretation of data, it gives you an edge towards winning, and an edge on average at interpretation.


Problem is, education gives you additional knowledge, but without a disagreement on data, having additional knowledge means nothing.


Really, the only reason that it's hilarious to you is because of your poor logical skills.

Again, I shall ask you something. Why do you put so much effort into arguing for the pro-ban side and arguing against anti-ban people when you voted anti-ban? Why not use some of your sarcasm to help the side you actually voted for?

Probably same reason as I do it. I'd prefer the community makes a PROPERLY informed decision, even if it's one I disagree with. The information itself must be correct, regardless of which side it helps.


Translation: Your bad arguments annoy me.

You also weigh the opinions of foxandfalcomasta666 equally with Mew2King's, so we have extremely differing opinions when it comes to...opinion, lol. I have absolutely 0 care for what a random player says and only care about the top levels in terms of results and opinions, and that's where I'm seeing that MK loses to Snake. I'm not going to suddenly count the common man's opinion and not be an elitist because you say I should. I'm too stubborn.

The entire point was that he doesn't CARE about opinions. He weighs arguments, and arguments are origin-blind.

Why would I consider you anti-ban? Because you clicked "no" on the poll? You've yet to do/say anything that supports your vote.

Because he has, on many occassions, said that it is too early for an MK ban. He can disagree with you on every other point, but THAT is what counts as far as his alignment.

You're trying to pull a no true scottsman fallacy here, and nobody likes it.

 

[MetaKnightKing]

NO way !

Meta Knight shouldnt be banned just because he is overused, if more people try to develop their mains meta game and not just chillin about whats unfair, in a future a strategy can be found to counter Meta Knight

 

[Lord Viper]

Wow, did the polls get more Meta Knight banners or did a lot of people change they vote, lol. I wonder how many other countries are doing this as well.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Fix'd.


being a top player has nothing to do with having a valid argument.

Yes it does. Top players know more about Brawl than lesser players in general. You want to know why? Because they study the game a lot. More than you do. While you're on Smashboards every day arguing nonsense there are people turning their Wiis on, inviting people over and testing theories, practicing strategies and getting ready for tournaments. The things they learn and the perspectives they gain are infinitely more valuable than someone who sits on Smashboards all day arguing stuff they don't know about.

I also have a question for you. A few questions.

A.) What region are you from?
B.) What tournaments have you been to?
C.) Can I see the results from those tournaments?

I'm genuinely interested.

 

[DaJib]

My views on this issue

No one denies that MK is good,, in fact, he is really good. This in itself isn't a problem, the problem is how easy it is to be good with MK, someone mashing buttons can even put up a good fight.

However this doesn't mean that MK should be banned. In my experience, most people who play MK get good really fast and then level out, improving beyond that is rare, making most MK players about the same skill. However, this does not mean that they are unbeatable, it just requires other players to raise their skill level over the standard metaknight skill. Its clear the MK is not unbeatable, because he has and will continue to be beaten (a good projectile game destroys MK). If he were "unbeatable" then this wouldn't be a debate, he would simply get banned.

Banning characters simply ruins the fun of the game, people say it ruins the variety when someone plays MK all the time, but I know competitive players who only play their favorite character, even when playing at a disadvantage. Counter-picking stages and characters may give you a helping hand, But that's not what this game is about, and it the end it simply comes down to your skill. If you want be be the best Game and Watch then you'd better be ready to beat Snake, you don't ban Snake, you get better then him. If you ban MK, how can you consider yourself the best player in the tournament or state or whatever if you can't beat a 14 year old kid who plays as MK because that's his favorite character?

I know that there are people who play MK hoping to simply push the win button, and if you can't beat them, and want him banned because winning some tournament is that important to you, then why don't you play as MK too and try to push the win button? Don't worry though, sooner or later somebody smarter will put you in your place

In conclusion, the meta game might begin to form as "how to beat MK" but you are going to end up fighting other characters as well and the metagame will evolve into its full and proper form. Eliminating MK makes things easier for everyone else, but who wants to make this game easier?

 

[HeroMystic]

Yes it does. Top players know more about Brawl than lesser players in general. You want to know why? Because they study the game a lot. More than you do. While you're on Smashboards every day arguing nonsense there are people turning their Wiis on, inviting people over and testing theories, practicing strategies and getting ready for tournaments. The things they learn and the perspectives they gain are infinitely more valuable than someone who sits on Smashboards all day arguing stuff they don't know about.

You're assuming the fact that top players are good because they study, when it could be that they're just really freaken good in a competitive environment.

Being a top player just means you're expected to know the correct answer.

 

[Ulevo]

And exactly how have you proved that MK does in fact have disadvantaged match- ups?
Where in the world did you guys come from? Just out of the blue when the fervor behind the MK banning became really heated. Hmmmmm...

Okay, I'm not going to mince words here.
Ya know, it's still quite a new argument that Snake or any character can be a counter to MK. It's always been said that MK > everyone else. You, Inui, M2K, and other MK users have made this new argument to challenge the findings that has been in place for several months now- that MK > everyone else.

YOU are the ones making assumptions. Our statements about MK has always been supported by tournament results. Just look above at that link I provided for you.^
What have your statements been supported by? Absolutely NOTHING!

Wow. You paid absolutely no attention to what I posted at all. If you can't read and comprehend what I just posted, I'm ignoring this.

Tell you what Ulevo.

You want to prove something other than 50:50 exists for MK vs. other characters than Snake. You provide the proof of this claim.

Why? I'm just calling you out on making assumptions, which you are. Why do I have to take up the responsibility for your short comings? I have yet to say "Snake goes 7:3 on Meta Knight" or "Peach goes 6:4 on Meta Knight". I haven't said anything of the sort. I'm not the one making claims other than the fact that you are wrong in stating that Meta Knight breaks the CP system based on your assumptions. I asked you to provide, and you point me to Ankokus thread, which clearly proves nothing more than how dominant Meta Knight is. I ask you again, and you attempt to turn the blame. Support your **** argument or don't open your mouth.

You're asking people to disprove something that's never been proven in the first place, and the tournament results do in fact disagree with you (If multiple other characters when played at equal skill were advantaged vs. MK he would not have as many wins as he has compared to them,

Hm. According to you, other characters such as Fox, Falco and Sheik could compete with Marth in Melee. Last time I check, he had significantly more wins then they did as well.

they'd be able to beat him and claim that top position.) Snake is the only one really supported in them, because his win rate is significantly higher than the other characters -- and even then it only currently supports the 55:45 matchup because if it were a significant advantage more Snakes should be taking down MKs for first place. It could also be echoes of Snake's popularity and MK field clearing to let him get to that final round and have a 50:50 shot at winning too, so even possibly supported the 55:45 is far from proven.

You still haven't told me where this whole 55:45 stuff is even coming from. Snakes winnings support what? A match up ratio that came out of no where? Thanks for ignoring my request for a reference yet again.

 

[Ulevo]

Great job proving your point! I'd note that this is in fact about all you did.


You want to claim something other than what current tournament results indicate, you provide the proof.

I have nothing to prove.

I already told you. Match up statistics between Meta Knight vs anyone accept a few characters are really undecided, because few players on this site know what they're talking about. I already pointed this out. I didn't make any other claims. You decided to bite the bullet and throw out a number, which you failed to follow up and prove. I'm done with this.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes it does. Top players know more about Brawl than lesser players in general. You want to know why? Because they study the game a lot. More than you do. While you're on Smashboards every day arguing nonsense there are people turning their Wiis on, inviting people over and testing theories, practicing strategies and getting ready for tournaments. The things they learn and the perspectives they gain are infinitely more valuable than someone who sits on Smashboards all day arguing stuff they don't know about.

Your statement would be true if it applies for all cases, but it doesn't.
Azen once said that Luigi can approach with his side B.
guess what they did? They would side B like idiots until he finally said "I was joking".
let alone that when we look at Azen's Lucario, its the best but doesn't make use of some of the more useful aspects of the character.
Being good doesn't mean you are knowledgeable.

Tell me, if Einstein states 1+1=2
and I say 1+1=2
What makes what Einstein says greater than my own?
Just because he is Einstein?
Thats an appeal to authority and it is faulty logic .

I also have a question for you. A few questions.

Questions?

A.) What region are you from?
B.) What tournaments have you been to?
C.) Can I see the results from those tournaments?

I'm genuinely interested.

Hmmm, I want to see where this leads actually.

A.) Atlantic North. I live in the same borough as NinjaLink (I am too to really ask if I could play him sometime)
B.) That depends what game. I haven't played in any brawl tournaments and I stopped playing in melee tournaments since the end of 2005. School >me
C.) I don't recall any sorry. I know for sure though I was average. I know for a fact that Inui would probably wreck me if we played. maybe I'll try to enter a tournament before the year ends and see how things turn out.


Now I have a question for you. Do you believe that any of my posts are less true or logical based upon my answers? Sort of like before and after.

 

[HydeInTheBox]

I don't think Meta should be banned, he was put in the game by Nintendo, he should be in the game.
(I am not biased, I don't use him)

 

[BrawlLover]

regions are quite different, each region has players of different skill and different usage of characters, it seems that most places however, uses mk and actually wins with him, but if a region doesn't really have mk players, then it shouldn't matter, so just ban the users!

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't think Meta should be banned, he was put in the game by Nintendo, he should be in the game.
(I am not biased, I don't use him)

Akuma was in SF2 but look what happened.

 

[Royale]

You're assuming the fact that top players are good because they study, when it could be that they're just really freaken good in a competitive environment.

Being a top player just means you're expected to know the correct answer.

Not always true, from time to time I ask my bro DannyKat about what he thinks of smash. One question in particular i asked is if he actually made stratgey's or studied at all. He laughed and said nope. I'd have to agree with him though, i like just going into a match and fight depending on what situation im in. I cant necessarily think like other players in terms of stratgey, im all about being in the moment. Fighting on instinct and with my feelings.

 

[Ulevo]

What I don't get is, why are Ulevo, Inui, and the like prancing around acting like their words are golden?

It is up to THEM to disprove what has been said since day 1- that MK > the rest of the cast.
They have not been able to disprove that so far. Until tournament results begin to show Snake and MK going even, their views shall remain invalid.

I don't act like my word is golden. I do what every other human being does-- always believe they're right until proven otherwise. I do prance though.

And since when has Meta Knight < Everyone been said since day one? Snake dominated the early scene and was regarded as the best for most of Brawls short lifespan. Some people even still regard Snake as the best, though not by the vast majority obviously.

And why is it only up to the anti ban side to prove the facts of Meta Knight? Why is it that the pro ban is allowed to rely on a simple tournament rankings list as a crutch for their arguments? It's up to the community as a whole to discuss this issue, and provide facts, proof, contributions, testings, and arguments.

That is the only reason I am continuing to argue. It isn't just because I myself as someone who actually likes Meta Knight, or who likes to fight Meta Knight, wants to keep Meta Knight in the game. I want the best outcome for the community, because it directly effects me as a member of it. I'm arguing for the sake of what I believe is the right decision to make based on the fact that this is the community I play with. I enjoy going to tournaments, kicking *** and getting my *** kicked. If the tournament scene is to be disrupted by something, I wish to fix it, or contribute to the solution. I sincerely believe that banning Meta Knight is not something that will be a positive decision to make.

If it weren't for that reason, I would have just gave up because of how irritated I get with stupid posts all day long when I should be doing other things.

 

[kr3wman]

And why is it only up to the anti ban side to prove the facts of Meta Knight? Why is it that the pro ban is allowed to rely on a simple tournament rankings list as a crutch for their arguments? It's up to the community as a whole to discuss this issue, and provide facts, proof, contributions, testings, and arguments.

Shouldn't Inui stop posting then?

Just asking.

 

[Rhambo]

he should but i doubt he will

 

[CO18]

Metaknight is garbage.

 

[Justblaze647]

Metaknight is garbage.

That's creative...

/sarcasm

 

[§leepy God]

Metaknight is broken garbage.

Remixed because someone might have done it by now, lol.

But all I have to say is that I have to face more Meta Knight's for them to be banned. IMO, they all play the same. O_o

 

[The Milk Monster]

He should be banned.
It seems like most metagame will revolve on how do I counter Meta, what to do to counter Meta, etc.
Even the most inexperienced players can pick Meta and win spamming random aerials, etc.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1.Hm. According to you, other characters such as Fox, Falco and Sheik could compete with Marth in Melee. Last time I check, he had significantly more wins then they did as well.

2. You still haven't told me where this whole 55:45 stuff is even coming from. Snakes winnings support what? A match up ratio that came out of no where? Thanks for ignoring my request for a reference yet again.

1. last time I checked, samurai panda had made a thread showing that marth won more than 50% of every tourney that had more than 100 attendees.

2. dude, are you blind? he using inuis argument. he comes in here all the time talking about snake having a 55-45 on MK. he doesnt even believe that but for the sake of debate hes giving inuis argument the benefit of the doubt...

just correcting some misteaks up in this thread

 

[DanGR]

lol, just do the smart thing and use him.

 

[Justblaze647]

lol, just do the smart thing and use him.

I guess that is the smart thing now-a-days, huh?

 

[§leepy God]

lol, just do the smart thing and use him.

That's kind of like saying if your friend use a gun to shoot the people he don't like, you should do that to?

 

[MetaKnightKing]

Wow, did the polls get more Meta Knight banners or did a lot of people change they vote, lol. I wonder how many other countries are doing this as well.

Meta Knight is not banned in Mexico nor Brazil

 

[DanGR]

That's kind of like saying if your friend use a gun to shoot the people he don't like, you should do that to?

No.

It's saying "Pick this character and you'll do better."

gg