Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Inui]

You must really pay no attention to the way he comes off and presents himself in front of the community, lol :D~ Otherwise, sexy post.

No, he just knows me personally as a friend.

I completely agree with Kirbstir and Jesiah. It's amusing to know that ShadowLink84, despite coming off as intelligentish on the boards, is a player that I'd most likely threestock consistently. I'm not saying it pertains to the debate at all. I'm just saying it's amusing to know.

Someone asked for this to be filled out, so here's my opinions.

Meta Knight: 50/50
Snake: 45/55 (60/40 on Halberd/FD, 50/50 on Brinstar/RC)
King Dedede: 60/40 (55/45 on Halberd/FD)
Mr. Game & Watch: 55/45
Falco: 55/45 (50/50 on FD)
R.O.B.: 60/40
Marth: 60/40
Wario: 55/45
Lucario: 60/40
Donkey Kong: 55/45
Diddy Kong: 55/45 (50/50 on FD)
Pikachu: 60/40
Ice Climbers: 60/40
Kirby: 60/40
Pit: 60/40
Wolf: 65/35
Toon Link: 60/40
Olimar: 55/45
Fox: 65/35
Zelda: 60/40
Sheik: 60/40 (40/60 on FD)
Zero Suit Samus: 55/45
Bowser: 70/30
Luigi: 70/30
Peach: 70/30
Ike: 75/25
Lucas: 75/25
Ness: 80/20
Mario: 80/20
Pokemon Trainer: 70/30
Samus: 80/20
Yoshi: 60/40
Sonic: 60/40
Jigglypuff: 70/30
Ganondorf: 90/10
Link: 90/10
Captain Falcon: 90/10

One bad match, one even one with himself, and then multiple extremely slight wins that don't mean that much. He only ***** terrible characters.

Also, stages change match-ups. I only included a few stage-specific chances, but generally taking MK to Halberd or FD will hurt him.

Jesiah you claim that high level players (specifically MK mains, coincidentally) say that Metaknight gets beaten by Snake. What about all of the other players who DON'T agree with that? What about Overswarm, or Chillin, or Chu?

Overswarm is not a top player at all.

chillindude829 is a whiny crybaby when it comes to MK and then he gets ***** by Snake when he picks MK.

ChuDat thinks MK beats Snake? He never said this before, but oh well.

Jesiah, Ether, and Yes! are all pretty good Snake mains and they think Snake wins. I'd wager that Ally and Meep think Snake wins, too.

Inui's opinion does indeed hold more weight than yours. He's SEEN first hand the things he's talking about, he's experienced it. If he thinks Snake beats MK, it's obviously because he's been on the Snake side and beaten MK, he's been on the MK side and lost to Snakes, he's SEEN other good players on either side lose or win in the matchup. He's talked with other high level players about it. Players that have thought of strategies on both sides, and have determined using their own intelligence and thinking and testing that Snake wins.

Yup.

 

[Ulevo]

Ever since people started throwing out "X character goes even with MK" for the past month.

You know what, that's so beautiful, it's going in my sig.

 

[brinboy789]

Ever since people started throwing out "X character goes even with MK" for the past month.

the only people who go even with MK is yoshi (55:45 is neutral ), and possibly olimar?

snake > MK.

 

[XienZo]

It's amusing to know that ShadowLink84, despite coming off as intelligentish on the boards, is a player that I'd most likely threestock consistently. I'm not saying it pertains to the debate at all. I'm just saying it's amusing to know.

Oh noes, he's using brainwashing propaganda!

Does Shiek really have an advantage on FD? I hadn't heard of that one before.

 

[Snakeee]

Atomsk me and my brother were just laughing about how everyone made such a big deal that you powershielded those two attacks lol. Not saying it wasn't nice, but when I play him we powershield about half of each other's attacks. In fact last game I just played we powershielded 10 attacks in a row o_O. That has to do with the fact that I play against him a lot, but in most matches against anyone either of us can powershield a good amount of the time.

Besides that, a lot of Metas attacks can be powershielded without too much trouble. I almost always powershield the tornado if I don't go for the down B footstool over it.

 

[Justblaze647]

I don't have to provide any facts.

Contradicting yourself isn't helping your case, ya know...

 

[XienZo]

Contradicting yourself isn't helping your case, ya know...

No evidence is needed if you're just finding faults in other people's logic, kinda like how Yuna does.

 

[Mmac]

Ulevo, You do know people can't see the 2nd Qoute Right?

Also what makes Sheik so good on Flat Stages?

 

[Inui]

Does Shiek really have an advantage on FD? I hadn't heard of that one before.

Yes.

Grab release --> boost smash = massive damage, something like 25%.

Then it kills with good DI at like 95%.

Sheik can easily beat the tornado with needles there because there are no platforms.

 

[Ulevo]

Contradicting yourself isn't helping your case, ya know...

Contradicting myself? I never claimed anything. Had I done so, I would have been happy to back up said claims.

If I said Snake counters Meta Knight, I would been explaining properly as to why, or giving reference to top players opinions, threads, you know... what you should be doing.

I didn't though, did I?

Ulevo, You do know people can't see the 2nd Qoute Right?

Also what makes Sheik so good on Flat Stages?

I know.

 

[XienZo]

Yes.

Grab release --> boost smash = massive damage, something like 25%.

Then it kills with good DI at like 95%.

Sheik can easily beat the tornado with needles there because there are no platforms.

What about them non-nado approaches?

And isn't Shiek one of those that are easier to gimp?

 

[Ulevo]

What about them non-nado approaches?

And isn't Shiek one of those that are easier to gimp?

If she gets knocked far enough away she is. Her recovery isn't bad due to how fast her chain lets her cling to the stage, so unless she is really knocked far away she's usually fine.

Also, Vanish has invincibility frames, and kills Meta Knight early, so he can't be too careless with the moves he executes otherwise he'll walk right into one.

 

[Natch]

And yet you can't even point me in the proper direction to prove to me what "everyone" has agreed upon.

It doesn't matter how displeased with you are with me, the fact is that if you can't provide anything more than what you have, which thus far, has been Ankoku's thread, and telling me that M2K, Jesiah and Inui believe the match up is 55:45 Snake, then you really have nothing to go by. You can't reliably sit here and tell me Meta Knight breaks the system. To break the system, you need to know the match up ratios to determine if whether or not he truly doesn't have a sufficient amount of counters. You failed to deliver. And it isn't even your fault, it's just a reality. Smashboards hasn't come to the proper conclusive evidence to ban Meta Knight effectively yet, or decide not to even. But don't make claims without backing them up properly.

Anyway, I'm not continuing this anymore.

Common knowledge does not need citation.

But if you must, I will provide.

All of the ratios you see below are formatted the following way: [Character]:[MK]
No exceptions to that. It's always [Character]:[MK]

THERE ARE TWO MK MATCHUP THREADS

1. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
Has detail, limited list. When I use this one, I will say "MK boards say" or "Matchup thread 1." I will consider this one to be true over the other thread when the two disagree, as this one is more accurate in my opinion.

2. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190105
No detail, list form, fully filled out. When I used this one, I will say "Matchup thread 2." Even if this one is less accurate, I need data if the first one does not provide.


I will only say what the MK boards think/don't think when either:
A. The character board in question has no/odd data on the matchup
B. The matchup is 45:55 or better.



1. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202683
Bowser boards say they are at 45:55
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

2. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204097
C.Falcon boards say it's 20:80

3. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638
Diddy boards say it's 40:60

4. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193883
DK boards say it's 50:50
MK boards say it's 45:55 their advantage

5. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202
Falco boards say it's 55:45
MK boards say it's 45:55 their advantage

6. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186742
Fox boards say it's 30:70

7. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763
GaW boards say it's 40:60

8. Gannondorf boards have not done the matchup.
Matchup thread 2 says it's 20:80 MK advantage

9. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188700
Ice Climbers say it's 30:70

10. Ike boards do not have numbers in their matchup thread.
MK boards say it's 30:70 MK advantage

11. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199330
Jigglypuff boards say it's 40:60

12. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142229
DDD boards say it's 40:60

13. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032
Kirby boards say it's 45:55
Matchup thread 2 says it's 40:60 MK advantage

14. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196257
Link boards say it's 20:80

15. Lucario boards have not done the matchup yet
MK boards say it's 35:65

16. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183767
Lucas boards say it's 35:65

17. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174824
Luigi boards use an out of 10 difficulty system, with 10/10 being an "unwinnable" matchup. They it's 9.5/10
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

18. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155877
Mario boards say it's very hard. This most likely means 30:70 or worse.
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

19. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736
Marth boards say it's 35:65

20. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
MK boards say it's N/A

21. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116
Ness boards say it's "In Limbo."
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

22. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222
Oilmar boards say it's 40:60

23. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193
Peach boards say it's 40:60

24. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181300
Pika boards say MK>Pika
MK boards say it's 35:65 their advantage

25. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174796
Pit boards say it's a disadvantage for Pit
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70

26. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188314
PT boards say it's 35:65 overall. No one Pokemon has a 45:55+ with MK.

27. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199016
ROB boards say it's 30:70. The format is oppisite of what you normally expect.

28. Samus boards have not done the matchup.
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

29. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174741
Kinda funky. Shiek boards say it doesn't matter what combination of Zelda and Shiek you use in the matchup, it'll be 35:65. Zelda boards say it's 45:55 with just Zelda(Scroll down for that one).
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70

30. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205983
Snake boards have no opinion, but say that the MK boards say it's 45:55. As a note, the stickied thread(I got the 45:55 from their newer unstickied chart) only rates matchups reletive to snake. 5 stars/astreiks means it ranks among the most difficult matchup Snake has, which could be any ratio(ROB is also 5 stars, and that matchup is listed as 40:60 Snake:ROB on the ROB boards)

31. Sonic boards did the matchup, but lack numbers.
Matchup thread 2 says it's 20:80

32. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182155
Toon Link boards say it's 30:70

33. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196010
Wario boards say it's 40:60

34. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329
Wolf boards say it's 30:70

35. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201922
Yoshi boards say it's 45:55
MK boards agree

36. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698
Zelda boards say it's 45:55
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

37. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176928
ZSS boards say it's 50:50
Matchup thread 2 says it's 40:60

Okay, the following matchups are 45:55 according to at least one character boards. If the boards disagree, I will list the character twice.

30:70
Bowser(Matchup thread 2)
Zelda(Matchup thread 2)
ZSS(Matchup thread 2)

35:65
None

40:60
Kirby(Matchup thread 2)
ZSS(Matchup thread 2)

45:55
Bowser(Bowser boards)
DK(Matchup thread 1)
Falco(Matchup thread 1)
Kirby(Kirby boards)
Snake(Matchup thread 1, no input from Snake boards)
Yoshi(Both boards agree)

50:50
DK(DK boards)
ZSS(ZSS boards)

55:45
Falco(Falco boards)

There you go. Happy now?

BTW, this took almost 2 hours to do, and I even lost a chunk of it around halfway through. Just as an FYI.

 

[XienZo]

If she gets knocked far enough away she is. Her recovery isn't bad due to how fast her chain lets her cling to the stage, so unless she is really knocked far away she's usually fine.

Also, Vanish has invincibility frames, and kills Meta Knight early, so he can't be too careless with the moves he executes otherwise he'll walk right into one.

Can't MK float with Dair until Shiek starts up vanish and shuttlelooping the attack to beat Shiek to the edge?

 

[Mmac]

If she gets knocked far enough away she is. Her recovery isn't bad due to how fast her chain lets her cling to the stage, so unless she is really knocked far away she's usually fine.

Also, Vanish has invincibility frames, and kills Meta Knight early, so he can't be too careless with the moves he executes otherwise he'll walk right into one.

Just because his Chain comes out fast and her vanish has invincibility doesn't me she's hard to intercept. MetaKnight is fast on the ground, he can easily reach the ledge in time. Edgehogging completely takes away his chain. All he needs to do is just go off and re-edgehog to protect himself from Vanish. Either Sheik will be edgehogged to death, or land on the stage with MetaKnight having a free hit.

I also don't get that Sheik gets more phrase with a Simple Grab Release, when Yoshi can Combo from Release for even more damage, has tons more options from release, Can kill at 50% with proper spacing on CG, Can kill at 120% pretty much anywhere, and even has a better grab game overall, with several options to deal with Tornado Spam, and can actually get past MetaKnight's Edgeguarding game.....

The World just doesn't make sense anymore....

 

[cman]

LMAO @ your Enstein reference. Let me put it in smash terms for u.

People on Smashboards say MK beats Snake. Good, high level players say Snake beats MK.

Now, the difference is the people on Smashboards don't go to high level tournaments as frequently as the top level players, and they don't place as well. This is because they aren't as good players obviously, and they can't think of as good strategies or implement them as well.

So, when M2K or Inui or Atomsk or any high level player says Snake beats MK, they are saying this because they've been in the position as MK or Snake and have concluded data from their experiences. You, as in Shadowlink, have no idea what it's like as Meta Knight to try and get inside of a Snake that limits what you can do using grenades and tilts you with precise timing and accuracy every time you get close. You really can't comment accurately on the matchup, because you don't know it as well as other high level players.

In addition, every matchup characteristic in MK's advantage that the people that think MK beats Snake refer to all the time, the good players that know the matchup have experienced it all. Yes we all know MK ***** Snake in the air. Yes we all know MK edgeguards Snake really well. We take that into account when determining the matchup also.

It's really frustrating for people who have put a ton of time and effort into the game, spent a lot of money travelling and gone through a lot in general to get to where we are today, only to have people that post on Smashboards tell us we are wrong and use silly Einstein references to back up what they say. We know what we're talking about, we've been through everything that we are arguing for. Yes what we say is opinion. but it's backed by a lot of experience and research, the kind that's impossible to duplicate by reading character boards.

Also, you really can't use Azen for any arguments really. We all know he's unorthodox. Not to mention, the kids that were trying to use Side B to approach probably were terrible or had little tournament experience. I can tell you right now if Azen told me to approach with Side B as Luigi, I would first laugh, then tell him to pick Luigi and try it on me. I would then proceed to **** him really really badly as he tried to approach with Side B. This is because I'm not an idiot, and there are a lot of other players like me out there who aren't idiots and wouldn't do that anyways.

In response to your answers.

A.) You should really ask NL to play. He's awesome and you'd get real good.
B.) Ok, so you really have no Brawl experience at all. Thanks for at least being honest.
C.) Same as B pretty much.

To answer your question, I don't think your logic is worse, I just think it holds less value. Like, everything you are saying makes sense for the most part, only it's not true. For example, when you say good players aren't always knowledgeable and that everyone's opinion holds the same weight... I see where you're coming from and it makes sense...Only it's not true. As much as people hate to admit it, Inui's opinion does indeed hold more weight than yours. He's SEEN first hand the things he's talking about, he's experienced it. If he thinks Snake beats MK, it's obviously because he's been on the Snake side and beaten MK, he's been on the MK side and lost to Snakes, he's SEEN other good players on either side lose or win in the matchup. He's talked with other high level players about it. Players that have thought of strategies on both sides, and have determined using their own intelligence and thinking and testing that Snake wins.

Sucks for Inui after all of the time he's put into the game, all of the tournaments he's hosted, all of the matches he's been through and all of the people he's spoken with, he shares what he's learned and people come in and say, " The character boards determined this. I'd rather believe them than your opinion which is no better than anyone's."

Here's a fact: Some people's opinions do indeed hold more value than other people's. Character boards can only be used as good references if there are players there that have been to tournaments, worked hard to study everything they've learned, and contributed to the boards. Marth boards are really reliable because Emblem Lord contributed all of his knowledge to it. Snake boards are not that reliable because there are just a bunch of people there who don't really know what they are talking about. Now let's say DSF came in and started sharing with them everything. They'd be IDIOTS to say to him, "Your opinion holds no more value than anyone else's here!"

Essentially that's what you are doing as well as others. It just doesn't make sense.

To put it simply, this is not completely true. You leave out a few key points.

For your Marth boards example; Yes, the Marth boards are considered reliable because of Emblem Lord. However, the point you neglect to mention is that EL is considered reliable because everything he says is logically supported with solid frame data and experience. Essentially, he is right because he is right. He is not right because he is good.

You say that a more experienced player's opinion is more valuable than anothers. This is very likely to be true, but not necessarily always true. Since they are more likely to be true, they always are worthy of more attention than that of a new player. However, this does not mean that it is above criticism.

To use an example of this thread, Snake's options vs MK's down tilt. The topic came up, and a prominant player claimed that MK would eat an ftilt in the face. However, a relatively unknown poster then countered saying that the down tilt is actually completely safe if spaced perfectly, and supported it with valid frame data. The prominant player then returned and said in any normal tourny situation it is nearly impossible to space it perfectly. While the tournament pressure argument may be valid enough, his original claim was incorrect. You are trying to claim that the original assertion should have been accepted, are you not, since the pro's opinion holds more weight than the unknown's?

 

[brinboy789]

Just because his Chain comes out fast and her vanish has invincibility doesn't me she's hard to intercept. MetaKnight is fast on the ground, he can easily reach the ledge in time. Edgehogging completely takes away his chain. All he needs to do is just go off and re-edgehog to protect himself from Vanish. Either Sheik will be edgehogged to death, or land on the stage with MetaKnight having a free hit.

I also don't get that Sheik gets more phrase with a Simple Grab Release, when Yoshi can Combo from Release for even more damage, has tons more options from release, Can kill at 50% with proper spacing on CG, Can kill at 120% pretty much anywhere, and even has a better grab game overall, with several options to deal with Tornado Spam, and can actually get past MetaKnight's Edgeguarding game.....

The World just doesn't make sense anymore....

people are severely bias against yoshi...

i was myself, until i versed a good yoshi, and then i started to respect them. its hard to be a yoshi main -_-. people severely underrate yoshi. IMO he should be mid tier at least, with all his grab release shenanigans.

 

[salaboB]

Wait? People are saying ROB is neutral now? Since When?

Who said people said ROB was neutral?

I said he was discussed as a possible anti-MK character at some point during the thread and found to not be >.>

Edit: So Ulevo, both Natch (From pulling from the matchup threads across the boards) and Inui have answered your claims that the matchups aren't known. Since all you were demanding was board discussed matchups, consider it gathered (By those who either have it memorized where I don't in one case, or someone with more time on his hands willing to demonstrate why your point is flawed.) Got anything else?

 

[HeroMystic]

One question...

Why are you guys trying to hard to make a match-up discussion out of this when it makes little to no relevance in a realistic setting?

Nothing happens by the book in a tournament.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

15. Lucario boards have not done the matchup yet
MK boards say it's 35:65

35:65?!

it should be 40 : 60/ 45 : 55.

 

[salaboB]

35:65?!

it should be 40 : 60/ 45 : 55.

Inui says 40:60, I'm inclined to put it around there.

 

[Natch]

35:65?!

it should be 40 : 60/ 45 : 55.

Go there and argue it then.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186338

I just compiled the data. I have no influence on it. I was getting that data to provide "proof" to Uvelo or whatever his name is, as he said there was no proof MK counterpicks the majority of the cast; SaladoB wasn't providing links to every single matchup discussion thread showing that MK counterpicks the majority of the cast.

He's being unreasonable, for sure. I did this just to spite him.

 

[Ulevo]

Common knowledge does not need citation.

But if you must, I will provide.

All of the ratios you see below are formatted the following way: [Character]:[MK]
No exceptions to that. It's always [Character]:[MK]

THERE ARE TWO MK MATCHUP THREADS

1. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
Has detail, limited list. When I use this one, I will say "MK boards say" or "Matchup thread 1." I will consider this one to be true over the other thread when the two disagree, as this one is more accurate in my opinion.

2. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190105
No detail, list form, fully filled out. When I used this one, I will say "Matchup thread 2." Even if this one is less accurate, I need data if the first one does not provide.


I will only say what the MK boards think/don't think when either:
A. The character board in question has no/odd data on the matchup
B. The matchup is 45:55 or better.



1. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202683
Bowser boards say they are at 45:55
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

2. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204097
C.Falcon boards say it's 20:80

3. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638
Diddy boards say it's 40:60

4. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193883
DK boards say it's 50:50
MK boards say it's 45:55 their advantage

5. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202
Falco boards say it's 55:45
MK boards say it's 45:55 their advantage

6. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186742
Fox boards say it's 30:70

7. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763
GaW boards say it's 40:60

8. Gannondorf boards have not done the matchup.
Matchup thread 2 says it's 20:80 MK advantage

9. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188700
Ice Climbers say it's 30:70

10. Ike boards do not have numbers in their matchup thread.
MK boards say it's 30:70

11. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199330
Jigglypuff boards say it's 40:60

12. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142229
DDD boards say it's 40:60

13. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032
Kirby boards say it's 45:55
Matchup thread 2 says it's 40:60 MK advantage

14. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196257
Link boards say it's 20:80

15. Lucario boards have not done the matchup yet
MK boards say it's 35:65

16. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183767
Lucas boards say it's 35:65

17. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174824
Luigi boards use an out of 10 difficulty system, with 10/10 being an "unwinnable" matchup. They it's 9.5/10
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

18. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155877
Mario boards say it's very hard. This most likely means 30:70 or worse.
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

19. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736
Marth boards say it's 35:65

20. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
MK boards say it's N/A

21. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116
Ness boards say it's "In Limbo."
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

22. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222
Oilmar boards say it's 40:60

23. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193
Peach boards say it's 40:60

24. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181300
Pika boards say MK>Pika
MK boards say it's 35:65 their advantage

25. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174796<br%20/>
Pit boards say it's a disadvantage for Pit
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70

26. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188314
PT boards say it's 35:65 overall. No one Pokemon has a 45:55+ with MK.

27. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199016
ROB boards say it's 30:70. The format is oppisite of what you normally expect.

28. Samus boards have not done the matchup.
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

29. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174741
Kinda funky. Shiek boards say it doesn't matter what combination of Zelda and Shiek you use in the matchup, it'll be 35:65. Zelda boards say it's 45:55 with just Zelda(Scroll down for that one).
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70

30. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205983
Snake boards have no opinion, but say that the MK boards say it's 45:55. As a note, the stickied thread(I got the 45:55 from their newer unstickied chart) only rates matchups reletive to snake. 5 stars/astreiks means it ranks among the most difficult matchup Snake has, which could be any ratio(ROB is also 5 stars, and that matchup is listed as 40:60 Snake:ROB on the ROB boards)

31. Sonic boards did the matchup, but lack numbers.
Matchup thread 2 says it's 20:80

32. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182155
Toon Link boards say it's 30:70

33. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196010
Wario boards say it's 40:60

34. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188329
Wolf boards say it's 30:70

35. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201922
Yoshi boards say it's 45:55
MK boards agree

36. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698
Zelda boards say it's 45:55
Matchup thread 2 says it's 30:70 MK advantage

37. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176928
ZSS boards say it's 50:50
Matchup thread 2 says it's 40:60

Okay, the following matchups are 45:55 according to at least one character boards. If the boards disagree, I will list the character twice.

30:70
Bowser(Matchup thread 2)
Zelda(Matchup thread 2)
ZSS(Matchup thread 2)

35:65
None

40:60
Kirby(Matchup thread 2)
ZSS(Matchup thread 2)

45:55
Bowser(Bowser boards)
DK(Matchup thread 1)
Falco(Matchup thread 1)
Kirby(Kirby boards)
Snake(Matchup thread 1, no input from Snake boards)
Yoshi(Both boards agree)

50:50
DK(DK boards)
ZSS(ZSS boards)

55:45
Falco(Falco boards)

There you go. Happy now?

I appreciate the effort, but I was already aware of the majority of these, and could have done this myself if it really was the point of the whole dilemma.

 

[Natch]

I appreciate the effort, but I was already aware of the majority of these, and could have done this myself if it really was the point of the whole dilemma.

You asked for proof. You got proof. You can't have it both ways. Either put up or shut up. You can no longer say "NO PROOF OF MK COUNTERPICK, NO PROOF" anymore.

Oh, and BTW...

You're on my list of people who I would whole-heartedly reccomend for a retroactive abortion.

 

[salaboB]

I appreciate the effort, but I was already aware of the majority of these, and could have done this myself if it really was the point of the whole dilemma.

Common knowledge does not need citation.

@Ulevo: Prove why this doesn't apply, and you might actually have a point.

Prove why it is not simply an assumption that there are unlocated counters for MK and that common knowledge is wrong about who the even matchups are.

Until then, you've got nothing but your opinion that the matchups are unknown to an extent that it can cause the "MK breaks the CP system" point to be uncertain. If the unknown amount is whether it's 70:30 or 60:40, it does nothing to it.

The real debate is not whether or not he's the best CP resistant character (That's been said by even some of the strong anti-ban debaters). It's whether or not the amount he resists it is destructive to the competitive community. And you've contributed nothing either for or against that, the matchups are not as unknown as you'd like to pretend.

 

[Justblaze647]

You asked for proof. You got proof. You can't have it both ways. Either put up or shut up. You can no longer say "NO PROOF OF MK COUNTERPICK, NO PROOF" anymore.

You guys are a hoot.

 

[BrawlBro]

You guys are a hoot.

You think thats a hoot? how about him saying

You're on my list of people who I would whole-heartedly reccomend for a retroactive abortion.

LOL

but at what this thread has become

Spoiler

The greatest thing ever

 

[salaboB]

You think thats a hoot? how about him saying

Wow, that was quite the thing to edit in.

I mean really, Ulevo's not that bad. He's just doing the best he can with the resources he has, and doesn't have much to work with to defend the side he supports. The fact that he ignores counterpoints and cherry picks what he does respond to in a manner that appears disturbingly like what you'd get from combining the worst debating aspects of Yuna, Inui, and Brinboy doesn't make him worth wishing out of existance.

 

[ShadowLink84]

LMAO @ your Enstein reference. Let me put it in smash terms for u.[/quoteooo.

People on Smashboards say MK beats Snake. Good, high level players say Snake beats MK.

Now, the difference is the people on Smashboards don't go to high level tournaments as frequently as the top level players, and they don't place as well. This is because they aren't as good players obviously, and they can't think of as good strategies or implement them as well.

okay.

So, when M2K or Inui or Atomsk or any high level player says Snake beats MK, they are saying this because they've been in the position as MK or Snake and have concluded data from their experiences. You, as in Shadowlink, have no idea what it's like as Meta Knight to try and get inside of a Snake that limits what you can do using grenades and tilts you with precise timing and accuracy every time you get close. You really can't comment accurately on the matchup, because you don't know it as well as other high level players.

I have no idea? Now you are just making completely baseless assumptions.
I made metaknight as my secondary primarily to deal with MK and I have dealt with good Snakes. So your argument that I have no clue on the matchup nor experienced it is based on your own assumptions, not on what has been said.

Now let us wreck your terrible argument about experience.
M2K stated that Sheik was the best character in melee.
Does this mean that Sheik is the best in melee? He clearly has experience dealing with Sheiks.
Yet we know for a fact that not only tournament data but the arguments place d that Sheik is not the best character. That would g to Fox, in spite of the fact that Fox had the 3rd most amount of wins last year and that marth dominated by around 34%.

Under your logic, if I was m2k and made the statement Sheik being the best, everyone should agree with me because I have incredible experience and am among the best players.

In short you are stating that a handful of opinions are equatable to fact.
in fact, going based on one's own experience is anecdotal.

In addition, every matchup characteristic in MK's advantage that the people that think MK beats Snake refer to all the time, the good players that know the matchup have experienced it all. Yes we all know MK ***** Snake in the air. Yes we all know MK edgeguards Snake really well. We take that into account when determining the matchup also. [/qute]
What about Mks spacing ability and incredible speed?
Clearly those are not being addressed or are ignored.

It's really frustrating for people who have put a ton of time and effort into the game, spent a lot of money travelling and gone through a lot in general to get to where we are today, only to have people that post on Smashboards tell us we are wrong and use silly Einstein references to back up what they say. We know what we're talking about, we've been through everything that we are arguing for. Yes what we say is opinion. but it's backed by a lot of experience and research, the kind that's impossible to duplicate by reading character boards.

I don't give a **** about your opinions, your experience and how frustrating it is for you.
yes I sound like a jerk, why? because its true. No one cares about things that can be brushed off as anecdotal.
I also find it funny you cite research considering that same research states that MK not only has a speed advantage, but a range advantage as well! S pray tell, what research supprts such theory?

Let alone that you make the blatant assumption that I and many others just go based off of what we hear and do not bother to research and test the man theories put forth.
hpefully I am reading things wrong.

yeah its great that Snakeee or Inui can beat M2k's MK with Snake. What does that mean though? Snakeee or Inui can beat M2K's MK with Snake.
It can easily be brushed off as the result f those top players knowing each others behavior or that their skill level overcomes a characters inherent disadvantages/advantages.

if the rest of the data i disagreeing or the 4 ther regions are showing different results than 1 region, clearly something is going n.

Also, you really can't use Azen for any arguments really. We all know he's unorthodox. Not to mention, the kids that were trying to use Side B to approach probably were terrible or had little tournament experience. I can tell you right now if Azen told me to approach with Side B as Luigi, I would first laugh, then tell him to pick Luigi and try it on me. I would then proceed to **** him really really badly as he tried to approach with Side B. This is because I'm not an idiot, and there are a lot of other players like me out there who aren't idiots and wouldn't do that anyways.

You completely missed the point. the fact of the matter was that people listened to Azen because he was Azen. Not because f anything else he said t support his statement.
You're stating "M2k says this, Inui says that" no one cares because it does not say anything abut their argument! Yeah its great the are experienced but having experienced does not automatically become an argument.

For example
Piaget had an immense amunt of knowledge concerning the development of morality.
Khlberg then picked it up, enhanced upon it, and showed moral development occurred in many more stages rather than 2. Even though Piaget had more experience at the time.
So what happened? Same thing as now, a theory was made, it was tested, it was o, Piaget was disproved.

Did Piaget being around longer int he field of psychology mean what he said had more weight than Kohlerg? No.

Having a large amount of experience is great, yeah it may help the persn have a more accurate idea of what is going on. it does NOT however automatically prove their argument f validate a bad argument.

A.) You should really ask NL to play. He's awesome and you'd get real good.

He's a stranger.

B.) Ok, so you really have no Brawl experience at all. Thanks for at least being honest.

None?
Not really. mind you I said I don't have much tournament experience.
Not that I have no brawl experience I don't call the tiny little weeklies I held in school and I did play melee.

C.) Same as B pretty much.

???

To answer your question, I don't think your logic is worse, I just think it holds less value. Like, everything you are saying makes sense for the most part, only it's not true.
For example, when you say good players aren't always knowledgeable and that everyone's opinion holds the same weight... I see where you're coming from and it makes sense...Only it's not true. As much as people hate to admit it, Inui's opinion does indeed hold more weight than yours. He's SEEN first hand the things he's talking about, he's experienced it. If he thinks Snake beats MK, it's obviously because he's been on the Snake side and beaten MK, he's been on the MK side and lost to Snakes, he's SEEN other good players on either side lose or win in the matchup. He's talked with other high level players about it. Players that have thought of strategies on both sides, and have determined using their own intelligence and thinking and testing that Snake wins. [/qute] That is bad lgic. Again his experience does NOT validate his argument.
The entire time he trumpes Snake>MK he does not go to ANY lengths to actually prve it other than citing "top players agree with me."
Not only is that an assumption of being correct, it also acts as if his argument is automatically validated by that experience.
PROVE that experience validates an argument automatically
Again I refer to the Einstein reference.
prove that 1+1=2 coming from Einstein is anymore valid
than my saying 1+1=2
Don't brush it off as you did earlier.

Sucks for Inui after all of the time he's put into the game, all of the tournaments he's hosted, all of the matches he's been through and all of the people he's spoken with, he shares what he's learned and people come in and say, " The character boards determined this. I'd rather believe them than your opinion which is no better than anyone's."

Wrong.
Its "I will believe them over you because they have a valid, supported argument in comparison to your lack of an argument."

We don't go off of hearsay in courts, we don't go off of hearsay in science, we didn't go off hearsay when it came to the Akuma banning.
Why should we do so now?

Again you're attributing far too much. Hell that is why he SBR takes s long to release a tierlist.
they don't go from their opinions. They take everything, tournament results, matchups, character capability into account.

I bet Ankoku is not m2k level.
I bet OS is not m2k level.
I bet SP is not M2K level.
However, I will always take what they say over Inui's because they support their argument.

This isn't "his opinion is as valid as yurs argument.
its a
"He made a valid, supported argument and you made a bad , unsupported argument."
Experience means nothing if you cannt prove that what you experienced is fact.

Here's a fact: Some people's opinions do indeed hold more value than other people's. Character boards can only be used as good references if there are players there that have been to tournaments, worked hard to study everything they've learned, and contributed to the boards. Marth boards are really reliable because Emblem Lord contributed all of his knowledge to it. Snake boards are not that reliable because there are just a bunch of people there who don't really know what they are talking about. Now let's say DSF came in and started sharing with them everything. They'd be IDIOTS to say to him, "Your opinion holds no more value than anyone else's here!"

Essentially that's what you are doing as well as others. It just doesn't make sense.

Actually they would be right in telling him.
His opinion is just that, opinion. It means nothing if he could not support it. Which is what EL has done. He doesn't just make a post and say "this is what I think and its true cause I am more experienced." Thats what Inui says.

EL says "This is what I think and here is why."

If you notice, the difference between a post from EL and a post from Inui is that El supports his argument. Inui does not.
You apparently favor the latter purely because of experience.
Which is faulty in many, many ways.

 

[Natch]

Wow, that was quite the thing to edit in.

I mean really, Ulevo's not that bad. He's just doing the best he can with the resources he has, and doesn't have much to work with to defend the side he supports. The fact that he ignores counterpoints and cherry picks what he does respond to in a manner that appears disturbingly like what you'd get from combining the worst debating aspects of Yuna, Inui, and Brinboy doesn't make him worth wishing out of existance.

I spent almost 2 hours on that...thing. I am quite displeased at how he so callously disregarded it.

I thought he was bad enough with the poor arguments, but when I DID provide the proof...for him to act as he did is downright insulting to me. As a person, I hate it when someone doesn't stick to what they said. Pisses me off to no end.

 

[aeghrur]

God, I could fill this thread up with holes in arguments and ad hominems, lol.
Main ones are these though:
Appeal to authority fallacy
More bias seems to be evident than objective data
Using anecdotal evidence as proof.

Anecdotal is basically like, empirical data without logical examination okay? Here's an analogy of what anecdotal data is like:

I sit in a room for X hours. I see the sun rise from the east, and set in the west without me or the chair moving. It happens again. Then it happens for more than 1 day. Now I get someone else to sit in the chair. He sits in the room for another X hours. He sees the sun rise from the east and set in the west without himself or the chair moving. Okay, so we can now conclude the Sun orbits the earth right? I mean, I saw it with my own eyes. He saw it with his eyes. Yeah, yeah, that's right, it happened. So it must be true right? So, the Sun revolves around the earth.

Yeah, that's basically using purely empirical data. Like, oh, he beat MK with Luigi or oh, he sucked vs me with DDD but killed me with MK and I was using a DDD counter, I saw it, so the match up must be X:Y. IT DOESN'T WORK. >_< This goes for both sides btw.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I'm not going to listen to what good players say because I'm foolish and don't want to. *Insert silly arguments with big words* So ha!

This is what I'm seeing when you post.

 

[brinboy789]

God, I could fill this thread up with holes in arguments and ad hominems, lol.
Main ones are these though:
Appeal to authority fallacy
More bias seems to be evident than objective data
Using anecdotal evidence as proof.

Anecdotal is basically like, empirical data without logical examination okay? Here's an analogy of what anecdotal data is like:

I sit in a room for X hours. I see the sun rise from the east, and set in the west without me or the chair moving. It happens again. Then it happens for more than 1 day. Now I get someone else to sit in the chair. He sits in the room for another X hours. He sees the sun rise from the east and set in the west without himself or the chair moving. Okay, so we can now conclude the Sun orbits the earth right? I mean, I saw it with my own eyes. He saw it with his eyes. Yeah, yeah, that's right, it happened. So it must be true right? So, the Sun revolves around the earth.

Yeah, that's basically using purely empirical data. Like, oh, he beat MK with Luigi or oh, he sucked vs me with DDD but killed me with MK and I was using a DDD counter, I saw it, so the match up must be X:Y. IT DOESN'T WORK. >_< This goes for both sides btw.

i know this is totally off topic, but your sig is too good:

Chis: Who would Side-B into a Jet Hammer?
SonicX580: I didn't do that, I colided into a jet hammer.

LOL

and theres so much ad homein i could fill up the empire state building with an extra million tons to spare >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

This is what I'm seeing when you post.

Then you are reading the wrong post because that is not what I said at all.
Go back and read it again and if you still don't understand, I will more than gladly just condense what I said so that its clearer and more simple.

 

[Deleted member]

stuff

lol you and your stuff.

 

[HeroMystic]

Did ShadowLink just unleashed a post of ****?

 

[XienZo]

I spent almost 2 hours on that...thing. I am quite displeased at how he so callously disregarded it.

I thought he was bad enough with the poor arguments, but when I DID provide the proof...for him to act as he did is downright insulting to me. As a person, I hate it when someone doesn't stick to what they said. Pisses me off to no end.

Technically, a proof would require undeniable information, basically tactics information backed up by frame data instead of match-up charts.


HOWEVER, you can still go back to all those threads, look through the reasoning, PM good mainers, research the frames, and you'll have a giant wall of undeniable logic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lstuff.

WHAT THE HELL! ONLY I CAN USE STUFF!

I am saddened by your behavior umbreon.

Did ShadowLink just unleashed a post of ****?

Not really.
I like jesiah, why would I **** him? ****** is bad.
I am disappointed he called me foolish and skimmed the wall of text.

 

[Deleted member]

I could read 751 posts of this argument, but as far as the anti-ban side goes, I am the argument. All of it.

[/yawn]

 

[ShadowLink84]

I could read 751 posts of this argument, but as far as the anti-ban side goes, I am the argument. All of it.

[/yawn]

/close topic.
We cannot refute this logic!