Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[gantrain05]

How can peach have high priority aerials? I know aerials can't clank, and I know she doesn't have large disjoints...

tell that to peach's Bair lol, it won't clank, it will simply just hit the other person, her Dair will actually "clank" with most grounded moves, which is very good for her since she will short hop a float usually at head level and if the opponent shields she can Dair and float back safely w/out being punished, or if they challenge the attack the first hit of the Dair will usually clank with it, but it will continue to go and they will be caught up in the rest of it.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Peach vs Snake arguments. Um.

How can peach have high priority aerials? I know aerials can't clank, and I know she doesn't have large disjoints...

Her Fair is basically a sword.

 

[Inui]

whelp, i will just take everything inui says with a grain of salt from now on, saying he has **** matchups against peach when he doesn't even know the character lmao. sure man....sure. and fyi, turnips are ALWAYS helpful, and just explain to me how peach gets ***** in priority? she has some of the highest priority arials IN THE GAME, you can't deny that, its a fact, and snake can't **** her at low percents, peach can easily avoid snakes camp game and can bait out his tilts better than just about any other character, shows how much you think you know about these matchups.

Peach is ***** by Meta Knight and Snake in terms of range and priority. I didn't say she had terrible priority. Meta Knight and Snake outrange her and outprioritize her. That is terrible.

None of you have explained how the match-ups are close at all. I don't see how Peach can compete with huge, fast, high priority moves.

I ***** Niko_K's Peach very badly with Snake. Ether, an NJ Snake with no experience in the match-up, beat Dark.Pch recently. theDoom, a pretty crappy MK, beat Kirbstir's Peach with MK, and everyone should know that Kirbstir isn't a stupid player. At the same tournament, I beat Kirbstir with Snake pretty badly.

 

[gantrain05]

Peach is ***** by Meta Knight and Snake in terms of range and priority. I didn't say she had terrible priority. Meta Knight and Snake outrange her and outprioritize her. That is terrible.

None of you have explained how the match-ups are close at all. I don't see how Peach can compete with huge, fast, high priority moves.

I ***** Niko_K's Peach very badly with Snake. Ether, an NJ Snake with no experience in the match-up, beat Dark.Pch recently.

and can you count how many snakes dark.pch has beaten? or how many MK's edrees has defeated? i can tell you its probably more times than they have been beaten by MK or snake.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

tell that to peach's Bair lol, it won't clank, it will simply just hit the other person, her Dair will actually "clank" with most grounded moves, which is very good for her since she will short hop a float usually at head level and if the opponent shields she can Dair and float back safely w/out being punished, or if they challenge the attack the first hit of the Dair will usually clank with it, but it will continue to go and they will be caught up in the rest of it.

Sounds like Lucario's Dair. I heard that against toad, the first hit activates the counter, and the second hit stops it.

Dair is godly, but I think Peach might have some problems against a lot of F-airs.

I don't know much about the matchup though because I don't know many Peaches, and can't quite get used to her style.

EDIT: also, my standard of comparison is Lucario.

 

[Vylit]

I highly advise reading the last page of the thread you post in before you post in the future

Isn't the original topic of the thread the one that matters though. I read the last couple of posts and found little to no reason as to why MetaKnight should be banned other than examples through a Falco vs. Snake match-up. MetaKnight being banned is a very generalize subject, shouldn't it be kept that way? Or am I wrong?

Sorry, but last time I checked Falco nor Snake were ever MetaKnight.

 

[Inui]

and can you count how many snakes dark.pch has beaten? or how many MK's edrees has defeated? i can tell you its probably more times than they have been beaten by MK or snake.

Dark.Pch has no good Snakes to fight. Good Snakes do not exist in NY and the northern ones like PC Chris and Cort quit. What good Snakes has he beaten?

I don't know much about Edrees, but I do know that MK isn't a widely used character on the West Coast. I'd be interested in seeing him play our top MKs over here and I'd like to play him myself.

You still haven't explained how the match-ups aren't terrible for Peach. I think she loses both 30/70 pretty solidly and have provided reasons for my conclusion. Tournament results over here also reflect the ****, lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

What?

Ike can't far jump off the stage, n-air, cover almost the entire distance from top of the map to the bottom with active frames, and then freely recover without caring.

His edgeguarding is terrible compared to Snake's because he can't go off the stage.

First, Ike using N-air anywhere off-stage is suicide.

Also, yes, Ike's edgeguarding is pretty bad, but I'm saying Snake's is not that far ahead of his just because of N-air. Those hitboxes are not disjointed and therefore can be hit by anything that out-spaces them.

So perhaps I'm missing something here. Exactly how is Snake's edgeguarding is so godly just because of his N-air? Obviously that N-air can be countered and punished.

No, but it certainly matters. It wouldn't even matter if Ike had the best aerial game if he never got to use it.

True.

 

[Inui]

First, Ike using N-air anywhere off-stage is suicide.

Also, yes, Ike's edgeguarding is pretty bad, but I'm saying Snake's is not that far ahead of his just because of N-air. Those hitboxes are not disjointed and therefore can be hit by anything that out-spaces them.

So perhaps I'm missing something here. Exactly how is Snake's edgeguarding is so godly just because of his N-air? Obviously that N-air can be countered and punished.

Ike going off the stage at all often equals suicide.

They don't need to be disjointed. They will **** an airdodge, which is the most common thing people will do. They will lose to a lot of aerials, but how many characters can use an aerial that far off the stage without killing themselves? Very few.

Snake can fire a mortar into the air, lay a mine on the ledge, and then jump off with n-air. There goes all of your options, lmao. That's pretty good edgeguarding.

 

[gantrain05]

well inui, im not going to write a matchup right here, but here is what edrees had to say about the snake matchup on the peach matchup boards, we haven't gone over MK yet so i'll get back to you later.

That's the reason Peach's have such a hard time against Snake. Snake is even more defensive than Peach. His tilts don't work when he's moving, so it's much better for a Snake player to litter the stage with traps and get you to come to him. The difference between Peach and Snake is that, thanks to the Snakedash, Snake can continue being on the defensive WHILE ATTACKING. Snakedash into your opponent and defend yourself with usmash while you slide and then start tilting. It's a vicious combination.

Unlike Meta, Snake's got a LOT of open spots that can be exploited if you figure out his defensive pattern and alternate between aggressive and defensive play. Play defensively till a hole opens up and then go extremely aggressive. Why do I say extremely? Because once Snake's in the air, he's at a huge disadvantage and you have to exploit it as much as possible before he gets himself settled and still on the ground where he can tilt you.

I do agree that Snake's KO power is very frustrating compared to Peach's lack of it, but Peach can combo Snake very, very well and get that damage up fast, and he IS gimpable in a non-traditional way.

I'm going to write a Snake guide at some point I guess. But some main things to pay attention to:

1) Peach's Bair erases Snake's usmash. If he Snakedashes and you're short on time, Bair it. It'll erase the missle and knock him out of the Snakedash.

2) Peach's Dair will pull Snake out of a Snakedash if used right, and Snake is VERY easily combo'd. I can do ~40-50% starting damage on Kamaji if I get him in a Dair initially. Dair is your best friend in this fight, and easily your best approach (or float to Fair).

3) Peach's Fair is excellent for Snakes who erect a usmash wall (constantly usmash). As soon as a Snake usmashes, learn the amount of time you have, jump in their and hit him with a fair and back out before the missle lands. Do it ASAP because after he ends his firing animation he can utilt you into the missle if you get too close.

4) Once you get a Snake off of the stage go crazy aggressive. Don't necessarily chase after them but rain turnips off of the stage. The moment a Snake up-B's they are INCREDIBLY vulnerable to Peach. Peach's fair knocks him out of the up-B, and the Snake can't actually attack you back without dropping the up-B and not getting it back (thus dying), so he generally has to just take the hit. Throwing turnips will keep him from getting back with his second jump and force him to use up-B, at which point you chase after him and do as much damage as possible (or grab him if he passes a ledge). Kamaji figured this out fast and always recovers high, but then I can engage him in the air as he falls. Uair to Nair works pretty well- if he aerial dodges the uair the nair gets him.

5) Remember the grab trick! Grab snake out of his up-B on a ledge and let him get out on his own without doing any damage.

6) Send every uncooked grenade back at him. Cook the grenades yourself if you have time. It'll make him think twice about using grenades.

7) Snakes expect you to be afraid of their C4. Don't be. While you shouldn't stand on it alone, if Snake's using it as cover just dive into it. He's not going to blow himself up too and you can always float over the C4 or air dodge when he goes "NOW". They're often thrown for a loop if you aggressively dive past the C4 and pound on them because they expect it to give them some breathing room. Instead, KEEP the fight by the C4, throw the Snake at the C4, and keep him in the air as long as possible.

8) KEEP HIM IN THE AIR. Snake's going to try to land as soon as he can, so take advantage of that (dash attack him right before he touches the ground, for example). As long as he's in the air, you have the advantage. Just don't get so aggressive that you jump in front of his Fair and get spiked.

9) Turnips. Use them wisely, but don't abuse them. Snake punishes the glide toss with his ftilt way too easily so don't glidetoss into his face. Throw turnips at range when he's playing defensively, then switch from turnips to aggressive mode when he makes a slip. Once you get him off a ledge launch turnips like a madman to force his angle of approach and make him come on low so you can get a good shot at him when he up-B's.

10) Go for the gimp kills. Grab him out of the cypher, or keep Fairing him out of the cypher till he can't make it up. You may or may not knock him off the side but you can prevent his recovery over and over till he falls off the bottom.


That's how I do it, anyway Hope it helps someone.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

First, Ike using N-air anywhere off-stage is suicide.

Also, yes, Ike's edgeguarding is pretty bad, but I'm saying Snake's is not that far ahead of his just because of N-air. Those hitboxes are not disjointed and therefore can be hit by anything that out-spaces them.

So perhaps I'm missing something here. Exactly how is Snake's edgeguarding is so godly just because of his N-air? Obviously that N-air can be countered and punished.

Can you counter and punish Snake's Nair off stage? I mean, you must have been Snake-ledgeguarded before.

EDIT: B/c I know I can't. But that's why I'm not a pro.

 

[Tyser]

Peach isnt very good. Snake and MK **** her. End of discussion. Next victim?

 

[Inui]

That's a decent guide, but I saw nothing that Snake doesn't have a good answer to and it didn't change my mind at all. Peach can do a few things, obviously, since the match-up isn't unwinnable, but Edrees actually makes it look pretty bad even with this guide because he assumes a Snake will just stand there and u-smash, not use grenades that intelligently, not just u-tilt Peach out of her floating, etc.

I can write a guide about fighting MK with Ganondorf and include lots of stuff Ganondorf can do, but he's still ***** terribly in practice.

Can you counter and punish Snake's Nair off stage? I mean, you must have been Snake-ledgeguarded before.

It depends on the character.

It's unwise for Snake to jump off and n-air a character like MK, but it ***** characters like Ike, Link, Ness, Lucas, etc. very badly. It can also catch any non-multi-jump character pretty easily.

 

[gantrain05]

That's a decent guide, but I saw nothing that Snake doesn't have a good answer to and it didn't change my mind at all. Peach can do a few things, obviously, since the match-up isn't unwinnable, but Edrees actually makes it look pretty bad even with this guide because he assumes a Snake will just stand there and u-smash, not use grenades that intelligently, not just u-tilt Peach out of her floating, etc.

basic mechanics of peaches playstle, peach isn't going to just float approach snake, peach will only float after a short hop when they know they have an approach, float is an offensive move, not defensive.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yeah, cooking uncooked grenades doesn't work well, partially because of grenade drop and partially because good Snakes cook grenades well.

 

[BentoBox]

I do not understand why people would say "you have no idea what you're talking about" to an established top player. It's nonsense. I wouldn't be discussing the match-ups if I didn't know what I was talking about. I'm also both a high level Snake and Meta Knight, so I know a lot about their match-ups. How do you know more than me about the match-ups? I play two of the three characters we're discussing at a much higher level than you play Peach.

Exactly whose reputable Peach do you play on a regular basis to assert such facts? It doesn't matter if you're a top snake/meta if you have no considerable experience in said match-ups. I can't help but think that all you do is compare data on sheets of paper and come up with ratios. So far, every time you've tried to support your claims about a certain match-up, it's always been "I watch X play, he's a top Y, he won Z W and G, S and I agree on this". So please, this time around, who are your X Y and S?

Peach can't turnip camp against Meta Knight due to his speed, can't effectively beat the tornado with anything, gets edgeguarded extremely easily, and is ***** in terms of priority and range. How is this match any contest at all?

Snake destroys her at very low percents, outprioritizes her, outranges her, outcamps her, and lives forever because Peach has nothing that kills Snake at anything even close to low damage besides a charge u-smash. I don't understand how this match-up can be close at all.

You're free to educate me on these match-ups if you'd like to.

Since when is turnip camping her only strat? They help rack up damage from afar and help limit options as to how your opponent is going to get in, just like any other projectile in the game. She deals with the tornado like every other average character does, you can sheild it, you can bait it and punish with f-smash, you can DI the first hit, and d-air from the top works albeit a bit risky. And with her having the amongst the greatest horizontal recoveries in the game, I fail to see how she gets edgeguarded extremely easily. But then again, that could also apply to 100% of the cast, seeing as you're talking about MK.

Peach eats Snake for dinner at low percents. She can generally pull off 50% combos from 0% right as a match starts against most fast fallers/big targets and snake is no exception. Her float also grants her an advantage compared to most of the cast who has to fight against him as camping with projectiles isn't nearly as effective as you claim it to be if she is able to stay off the ground most of the time while keeping her offense. When edgeguarding, she also has the float that enables her to go after you even if you attempt to recover far away from the stage. I don't really feel like writing a book though, but yeah, you can't just compare attributes and base a match-up off of that. Such reasoning only highlights your ignorance. It's what you can do with those tools that matters, and Peach happens to have quite the proper ones to get in.

This has what to do with ZSS's viability as a character?

You're not reading. This has to do with the fact that you wouldn't have RECOGNIZED the character as viable. We could've layed down the facts for you before you met Snakeee, but it wouldn't have shaken ya.

Most characters under the top tier are indeed pretty mediocre. Marth, for instance, is viable but still not that great. He loses 40/60 to MK and has definite losses to Snake and Dedede to deal with. All of those characters are extremely common in the tournament scene. Marth is viable, but a Marth player has to work very hard to win and be extremely skilled. Characters like Fox and Luigi of the B tier aren't viable due to wtfterrible match-ups, but most high tiers are viable.

And I'm saying that you weren't singing the same record just a while ago. These characters haven't changed.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike going off the stage at all often equals suicide.

They don't need to be disjointed. They will **** an airdodge, which is the most common thing people will do. They will lose to a lot of aerials, but how many characters can use an aerial that far off the stage without killing themselves? Very few.

Snake can fire a mortar into the air, lay a mine on the ledge, and then jump off with n-air. There goes all of your options, lmao. That's pretty good edgeguarding.

Small loophole in your argument: I was just talking about his N-air since we were originally comparing aerial games. Obviously with all of Snake's options he's a beast at edgeguarding, which would be dumb to refute.

Can you counter and punish Snake's Nair off stage? I mean, you must have been Snake-ledgeguarded before.

EDIT: B/c I know I can't. But that's why I'm not a pro.

Yes, because I play Mario. I can just cape his N-air and F-air him down while he's stuck in his animation.

Mario for top tier.

 

[Cirno]

You're free to come visit our boards any time :D. Fact is, MK is not a Peach counter, as anything beyond 60:40 is effectively a counter.

edit: This color is so hawt.

Seriously.
You act like a name like BentoBox isn't hot enough. Save some sex for the rest of us, geeeeez.

 

[Nic64]

i would love to see your Snake or ally's take on keitaro's, SK92's or Sethlons Falco head to head in an aerial battle.

not exactly what you asked for and it's going to get "lol wifi"'d a million times, but

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_Deikn7eSfo

ally uses his aerials a lot more in this match than I would have ever guessed would not get you *****

40/60 matches aren't bad enough to say that a character needs a secondary to win, MK is not alone in being a character that you can blind pick at all. IMO snake, olimar, marth, lucario, falco, and DDD all serve that role almost as well, and GAW would too if he didn't get wrecked by snake. and I also wouldn't be surprised to see a mid tier character with mostly 40/60 match ups winning either, a slight disadvantage can be off set by someone not having any experience with high level play of your character as well

 

[Izaw]

My Link counter MK =D... yea right...

No but banning MK is just wrong...

Shiek and DDD are lamer and has infinites..

 

[Inui]

Exactly whose reputable Peach do you play on a regular basis to assert such facts? It doesn't matter if you're a top snake/meta if you have no considerable experience in said match-ups. I can't help but think that all you do is compare data on sheets of paper and come up with ratios. So far, every time you've tried to support your claims about a certain match-up, it's always been "I watch X play, he's a top Y, he won Z W and G, S and I agree on this". So please, this time around, who are your X Y and S?

And what top MKs and Snakes are you playing? I can throw that argument right back at you. At least I have the fact that I am a high level player.

I've played Niko_K in tournament, but otherwise I don't have any of my own real top level Peach experience. I am judging things based on watching a good Peach here and there, like when Azen decides to use her or Dark.Pch is actually at the same event as me.

It's also extremely obvious that Peach loses in every single area to Meta Knight: priority, range, speed, KO power, survivability, etc. She is clearly destroyed in this match-up. She loses to Snake in all of those areas as well besides speed.

Since when is turnip camping her only strat? They help rack up damage from afar and help limit options as to how your opponent is going to get in, just like any other projectile in the game. She deals with the tornado like every other average character does, you can sheild it, you can bait it and punish with f-smash, you can DI the first hit, and d-air from the top works albeit a bit risky. And with her having the amongst the greatest horizontal recoveries in the game, I fail to see how she gets edgeguarded extremely easily. But then again, that could also apply to 100% of the cast, seeing as you're talking about MK.

Turnip camping is necessary against characters like MK and Snake.

She is edgeguarded easily because of her recovery. It's linear and predictable and she has no moves to stop Meta Knight's edgeguarding. Even if she goes low to u-b to the edge, MK can drop down n-air because he's invincible during it. She is screwed off the stage against MK.

Peach eats Snake for dinner at low percents. She can generally pull off 50% combos from 0% right as a match starts against most fast fallers/big targets and snake is no exception. Her float also grants her an advantage compared to most of the cast who has to fight against him as camping with projectiles isn't nearly as effective as you claim it to be if she is able to stay off the ground most of the time while keeping her offense. When edgeguarding, she also has the float that enables her to go after you even if you attempt to recover far away from the stage. I don't really feel like writing a book though, but yeah, you can't just compare attributes and base a match-up off of that. Such reasoning only highlights your ignorance. It's what you can do with those tools that matters, and Peach happens to have quite the proper ones to get in.

Snake doesn't care about being combo'd to ~40% when he is living to double the damage that Peach does. Snake also does that amount of damage in 2-3 easy-to-get hits.

Peach's float makes the match-up winnable, but it doesn't give her any real advantages. Snake's aerials have crazy priority and his u-tilt will eat any move she uses from above and it outranges her. She can f-air to jab safely on his shield but Snake can just roll away before the f-air and then use his giant f-tilt to hit her. Snake can just casually toss a grenade into her float if she's using d-air and she'll get blown up.

Jumping off and n-airing or b-airing Peach is fun. If you miss, who cares? She doesn't have any spikes and she's too weak to truly **** you for it. If you jump off intelligently, you will be safe regardless. If you hit her, she dies.

You're not reading. This has to do with the fact that you wouldn't have RECOGNIZED the character as viable. We could've layed down the facts for you before you met Snakeee, but it wouldn't have shaken ya.

It takes a top player to prove characters can win. I don't see why you'd criticize me, or anyone, for only noticing that ZSS is viable due to Snakeee, DK being viable due to Bum, etc. Despite Edrees being very good, he is not doing as much as other top players and not taking 1st at huge tournaments. Peach is not viable to win big tournaments on her own due to how badly she loses to MK and Snake.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Peach can't approach Snake at all once she's in the high 90s. His Uptilt beats all of her approaches, and kills at such percents. Well, I guess she can glidetoss in and hope for the best?

Snake would be stupidly broken if the game was like Melee, and stale moves wasn't a huge deal. Snake would freely uptilt peoples approaches all the time.

 

[salaboB]

It takes a top player to prove characters can win. I don't see why you'd criticize me, or anyone, for only noticing that ZSS is viable due to Snakeee, DK being viable due to Bum, etc. Despite Edrees being very good, he is not doing as much as other top players and not taking 1st at huge tournaments. Peach is not viable to win big tournaments on her own due to how badly she loses to MK and Snake.

I'd note that ZSS has one tournament win total by Ankoku's ranking, while Peach at least has 2 (And is only 1 behind Diddy, and pretty near him in points too).

If you're saying anyone is letting Peach down by not winning huge tournaments, I think you need to say Snakee is not really proving much with ZSS either.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Snake can do 29% with two of them and they all kill at stupidly low damage. Ike doesn't have that and he can't freely jump off stages with aerials like Snake can. Snake can jump off and use n-air and **** the vast majority of characters without even taking a real risk. The active frames of the move making it a super gay edgeguarding strategy.

Snake can't just jump out and perform a Nair, I have yet to see him do so against the majority of characters without placing himself at risk. its far from safe and very easily predicted and avoided.

I have never gotten edge guarded by Snake using a Nair unless I made a rather large error.

You can only do 29% damage with them if you do not DI them properly and they only kill upon the last hit which can be DI'ed away from. So at worst,you'll take around 20 or so damage and avoid the killing blow.

U-air. D-air moving to the side, which ***** shields and is a super gay tech-chase.

Don't know how applicable an SH Dair is but I'll agree with you for now.

I don't find it easy to DI out of the n-air. I've caught players like Mew2King, Forte, Omni, Atomsk, teh_spamerer, etc. with the full n-air many times recently. D-air is easier to get out of, but you won't if you're on the ground.

Don't fall to rest on your experience inui. PLayers by a larger amount have DI'ed the Nair and Dair.
Difficulty has nothing to do with it since once its been learned, it will be done consistently.

Its just like Sheik's Fsmash or Zelda's Fsmash. once you'eve mastered it, difficulty has nothing to do with the results.


Hell I can DI Snake's Nair and Dair and I tend to DI stupidly at times.

Ike can't use his aerial game as much as Snake can. Snake can freely leap off stages a lot, while Ike can't do this. Ike also isn't even viable enough to apply his aerial game against any characters that matter.

We are looking from a purely objective pint and doing a comparison of Snake to Ike. In which regard, Ike has much more versatility.

Ike is faster, with much better range allowing him a better margin of error, and he has more priority. So if he jumps out to fair, he won't fall as low below the stage than Snake who has a lager amount of active frames and relies on that last hit to kill or edgeguard the opponent successfully.

If Ike jumps out and Fair's, he can double jump back onto the stage without worry.
If Snake jumps out, the aerial that he can use are his Uair and Fair, neither of which are good edge guarding tools. Or rather, because Snake doesn't have the tools to really make them count.

However if he is relying on nair which stays out a long time and can be DI'ed out of, then it really cannot be said he is doing it well.
Snake does much better on the ground than he does in the air and really cannot use most of his aerials from below FH height like Ike can. Nor does he have the range and speed that Ike does and he has DI'able aerials.


The only aerial that Ike has that can result in his death during an edgeguard is his nair due tot he beastly cooldown time. Thats pretty much it.

Brawl is deeper and more balanced than I previously thought.

melee>Brawl FOREVA! *shot*


@nic64: That is a terrible example. The game was lagging 2x as much. can you get a non wifi example?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth does have a really really hard time vs Metaknight, and camping is a good strategy vs Marth. So he's not wrong.

It's not too bad reletive to a large segment of the cast, and "wrecked" is hard counter, 30-70 or worse.

As for projectiles, he has no issue with projectiles that don't either have transcendant priority or explode. Period. Most he can just jab walk.

For projectiles with transcendant priority, perfect shield walking generally deals with them, though some are a pain to perfect sheild. Regardless, Marth has a good walk and good aerial mobility, so he gets in evently, and when that happens poking tends to be wonderful to force the opponent into a defensive position.


Take for example, Falco has one of the most difficult projectiles in the game to deal with for Marth, however he beats Falco 60-40 ultimately.

Most characters under the top tier are indeed pretty mediocre. Marth, for instance, is viable but still not that great. He loses 40/60 to MK and has definite losses to Snake and Dedede to deal with. All of those characters are extremely common in the tournament scene. Marth is viable, but a Marth player has to work very hard to win and be extremely skilled. Characters like Fox and Luigi of the B tier aren't viable due to wtfterrible match-ups, but most high tiers are viable.

Snake is a VERY close match-up, and DDD is pretty dead even functionally and theoretically, the Marth boards merely gave the nod to DDD. You can check the match-up discussion if you want to confirm.

Regardless, the only real barrier for Marth is MK, which is a 65-35 btw. Snake and DDD match-ups are at worst, a very bare victory for them, not enough to justify them as major barriers to Marth play. It's all MK that makes Marth mediocore in the current tournament enviroment.

 

[BentoBox]

Peach can't approach Snake at all once she's in the high 90s. His Uptilt beats all of her approaches, and kills at such percents. Well, I guess she can glidetoss in and hope for the best?

Snake would be stupidly broken if the game was like Melee, and stale moves wasn't a huge deal. Snake would freely uptilt peoples approaches all the time.

Because Peaches just run into u-tilts. Because there are a lot of moves out there that actually beat u-tilt in range and power. Seriously? And wasn't that you playing against Drk at bum's? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4nHdungims Not saying this proves anything because I wont just throw anecdotal evidence to make a point but what it DOES prove is that the match isn't as one-sided as you make it claim (70:30). Unless drk is just that much of a better player than you are.

@Inui: So you have no basis and experience for claiming that both matchups are 70:30 other than a few matches you peeked at (which are irrelevant considering the level of skill difference). My point. On paper analysis won't do it for me, sorry.

It takes a top player to prove characters can win. I don't see why you'd criticize me, or anyone, for only noticing that ZSS is viable due to Snakeee, DK being viable due to Bum, etc. Despite Edrees being very good, he is not doing as much as other top players and not taking 1st at huge tournaments. Peach is not viable to win big tournaments on her own due to how badly she loses to MK and Snake.

Because you are close minded. It doesn't take a Bum or two to realize that DK has most of the tools in his arsenal required to take on the big-shots. DK hasn't changed since 8 months ago. Same goes for Kirby and whoever else. Of course they might have a lot more uphills but its the fact that you only come to such realizations only when X player does well, it just makes you look like a tool. The same goes for every Diddy bandwaggoner that now claims that he's THE mk counter. He's never changed. Alpha's been spewing that crap for months but nobody listened. He depicted on paper exactly what would happen, based on diddy's tools alone. Ears were shut. Suddenly, NL does good and boom, everybody sees the light. It's ridiculous. And we'd be tools to be in agreement with you all the time when the gospel you sing changes every week.

Only dead fish swim with the stream~

 

[gantrain05]

yeah inui is losing my trust lol. "peach has to turnip camp against characters like snake and MK" LMAO sorry you are just so ignorant of this matchup it astounds me how much bull**** you are spewing about it.

 

[otter]

I would say " It's too early in the game's life to say the some character needs to be banned just becuase he's entirely dominant early on"

But, he's really not so I can't even say that.

Save this conversation for when Meta is winning 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place at major tournies. In other words, stop having it.

**** like this is why the Smash scene can't get any respect.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I would say " It's too early in the game's life to say the some character needs to be banned just becuase he's entirely dominant early on"

But, he's really not so I can't even say that.

Save this conversation for when Meta is winning 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place at major tournies. In other words, stop having it.

**** like this is why the Smash scene can't get any respect.

Meta is winning 1st 2nd and 3rd in big tournies.

 

[Zankoku]

Wait, really? I haven't seen three Meta Knight mains taking all three top spots in any single tournament.

 

[gantrain05]

Wait, really? I haven't seen three Meta Knight mains taking all three top spots in any single tournament.

i haven't seen it either, i've seen the occasional 1 and 2 spot or 1 and 3 or something, and usually one of them seconds snake or something, but i haven't seen 1.2.3. all MK.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Because Peaches just run into u-tilts. Because there are a lot of moves out there that actually beat u-tilt in range and power. Seriously? And wasn't that you playing against Drk at bum's? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4nHdungims Not saying this proves anything because I wont just throw anecdotal evidence to make a point but what it DOES prove is that the match isn't as one-sided as you make it claim (70:30). Unless drk is just that much of a better player than you are.

Wow, did I say Snakes uptilt beats every approach in the game? No I did not, but it certainly beats tons of aerial approaches. Did I say Peach will just walk into Uptilts all day? No I did not, I said the Uptilt will beat her approaches should they occur at the same time, which is an attribute I discovered well-after playing this matchup, of I which I had minimal prior experience.

You also did not link the last match in the set in which I did significantly better after getting more comfortable with the matchup. Also, in the second match, I died roughly 70% earlier than I should have on my first stock, because I screwed up my C4 recovery. My opinion is that the matchup is potentially 65/35 in favor of Snake if played correctly. More notable players, Inui and teh_spamerer think Snake does even better than that. I do not think I played the matchup correctly in the set, due to lack of experience. Also, i'm not trying to take anything away from Dark.Pch, he's a great Peach, i'm glad I got to play him and learn the matchup a bit.

 

[BentoBox]

Wow, did I say Snakes uptilt beats every approach in the game? No I did not, but it certainly beats tons of aerial approaches. Did I say Peach will just walk into Uptilts all day? No I did not, I said the Uptilt will beat her approaches should they occur at the same time, which is an attribute I discovered well-after playing this matchup, of I which I had minimal prior experience.

Lol no.

"Peach can't approach Snake at all once she's in the high 90s. His Uptilt beats all of her approaches [,,,]"

That is what you said. I brought up the fact that it beats almost every move in this game in terms of range and priority to prove my point. What does kirby have that beats u-tilt? Nothing afaik, but chu, etc. Oh, Peach's f-tilt clanks with it.

You also did not link the last match in the set in which I did significantly better after getting more comfortable with the matchup. Also, in the second match, I died roughly 70% earlier than I should have on my first stock, because I screwed up my C4 recovery. My opinion is that the matchup is potentially 65/35 in favor of Snake if played correctly. More notable players, Inui and teh_spamerer think Snake does even better than that. I do not think I played the matchup correctly in the set, due to lack of experience. Also, i'm not trying to take anything away from Dark.Pch, he's a great Peach, i'm glad I got to play him and learn the matchup a bit.

Yes and Chu 2-stocked Inui's meta recently. See what I did there? Anecdotal evidence only goes so far to prove a point. What I wanted to show is that Peach does have means to get in.

And all this Peach talk really isn't the point.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Lol no.

"Peach can't approach Snake at all once she's in the high 90s. His Uptilt beats all of her approaches [,,,]"

That is what you said. I brought up the fact that it beats almost every move in this game in terms of range and priority to prove my point. What does kirby have that beats u-tilt? Nothing afaik, but chu, etc. Oh, Peach's f-tilt clanks with it.



Yes and Chu 2-stocked Inui's meta recently. See what I did there? Anecdotal evidence only goes so far to prove a point. What I wanted to show is that Peach does have means to get in.

And all this Peach talk really isn't the point.

Peach's means to get in is severely limited once she's in KO range(high 90s), because Snake can now use the uptilt more liberally. That's all i'm saying pretty much. I generally take what character boards say with a grain of salt, but even in the thread 'How to deal with specific enemy moves' on the Peach board, the advice for dealing with Snake's uptilt is not particularly positive or intuitive in the summary. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202597

So, um, whatever.

 

[BentoBox]

Yeah, I myself said that there is no way to deal with it. Because you don't want to. There's no action-reaction process involved here... You're at a high percentage, you know that u-tilt is coming, you simply don't rush in unprepared. That's all there is to it. The only way to deal with u-tilt is to stay away from it. And that applies to pretty much every character who's in killing range. Stop stating the obvious.

So yeah. Whatever xD.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Some characters can get around the Uptilt more easily, but yeah, we both understand eachother.

 

[Atomsk_92]

DDD is pretty dead even functionally and theoretically, the Marth boards merely gave the nod to DDD. You can check the match-up discussion if you want to confirm.

Since CH3, i have not lost to a single marth with DDD. This includes NEO

DDD wins 60:40 dude

 

[Turbo Ether]

Since CH3, i have not lost to a single marth with DDD. This includes NEO

DDD wins 60:40 dude

I don't know why no one on the boards believes you when you say things about matchups.

 

[Inui]

Too many random azz players that don't do/know anything keep thinking they're right over the real top players.

Screw this.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Haha this is kind of cool. I recently downloaded VeohTV for watching some of these movies I had links to and when I came to this topic it suggested a bunch of awesome tournament videos I hadn't seen.