Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Ripple]

I am completely convinced that secondaries are not necessary. He loses nothing worse than 40/60 and has the tools to beat any character if you are good enough.

I'm also beginning to think that ZSS, Kirby, Lucario, and DK can win tournaments without secondaries.
.

true for DK except when a DDD appears, IF the infinite is banned at that tournament then it is 60-40.

 

[NinjaLink]

I just got done discussing the match-up with teh_spamerer. He is in complete agreement with me.

Keitaro is an indication of Falco's potential? What?

You don't know what you're talking about. Snake beats Falco on the ground and in the air with fast, huge, high priority moves. If Snake isn't gimped, he outlives Falco by almost double the damage.



Those are all amazing characters that counter at least half of the top tier and all have no matches worse then 40/60. They can win tournaments. I don't understand why you underrate characters like Diddy so much when they are clearly top tier and most top players are in agreement on the matter.

People thinking Olimar isn't top tier is stupid. He forces approaches but can't be safely approached most of the time. That's incredibly gay. You guys need to see a real good Olimar like Atomsk make top players look like garbage with his Olimar.

And ur goin by what u seen. U dont actually use most of these characters. Pick one of those characters and go into tournament using only one of them and then u can actually say something.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I just got done discussing the match-up with teh_spamerer. He is in complete agreement with me.

Keitaro is an indication of Falco's potential? What?

Are you an indication of MK's potential? hmm?

Since you value experience so much, i figured it would be an excellent idea to pit a good snake user against a good Falco user.
And we know those Falco users are good.

in anycase,
Falco's aerial games> Snake
That is a fact.
last i saw on the discussion, Snake doesn't like to be in the air against Falco.
in fact, it was considered a bad idea to get into the air with Falco.

And don't name drop, really, i thought we established why it was bad a long time ago.
There hasn't been any proof, to indicate that Snake can deal effectively with Falco in the air. or a number of characters actually.

Now that i think about it, Ally's, your Snake, Cort's and a majority of Snake's don't take to the air very often.
I wonder why?

You don't know what you're talking about. Snake beats Falco on the ground and in the air with fast, huge, high priority moves. If Snake isn't gimped, he outlives Falco by almost double the damage.

Why do you bring up ground games when I am specifically talking about aerial games?

All Snake has is priority and range, but it means little because falco is that much faster.
The best of Snake's aerials requires that falco is behind him or above him.
(air and Dair get DI'ed and Fair is terribly slow)

Thats not good because it means Snake is VERY predictable whenin the air and has a huge risk when he uses his aerials shorter than FH height.

Hell if Snake tries to take to the air, what is to stop Falco from moving away from Snake's range and just firing multiple lasers?
If Snake has an on par, or better aerial game than Falco, I'll give you three cookies.
Cause it would also mean ike has an amazing game cause he has better range and priority on his aerials.

 

[Inui]

And ur goin by what u seen. U dont actually use most of these characters. Pick one of those characters and go into tournament using only one of them and then u can actually say something.

I use a lot more characters than you think. I'm not as diverse as you, but I have a very good understanding of this game and a very good understanding of the top tiers because they are extremely important.

I'm sure you could go 100% Diddy Kong and **** just as hard. I don't even know why you switch so often when your Diddy Kong is capable of such amazing feats and so fun to watch.

Are you an indication of MK's potential? hmm?

Yes.

Since you value experience so much, i figured it would be an excellent idea to pit a good snake user against a good Falco user.
And we know those Falco users are good.

Only Chillin's Falco is extremely good as far as I'm concerned. SK92 is probably up there as well. I haven't seen much out of Sethlon recently and Keitaro isn't that good.

in anycase,
Falco's aerial games> Snake
That is a fact.
last i saw on the discussion, Snake doesn't like to be in the air against Falco.
in fact, it was considered a bad idea to get into the air with Falco.

And don't name drop, really, i thought we established why it was bad a long time ago.
There hasn't been any proof, to indicate that Snake can deal effectively with Falco in the air. or a number of characters actually.

Now that i think about it, Ally's, your Snake, Cort's and a majority of Snake's don't take to the air very often.
I wonder why?

Snake's n-air eats through Falco's f-b and f-air. Snake's b-air, u-air, last hit of d-air, and last hit of n-air beat all of Falco's aerials and kill him at very low damage.

Snake outprioritizes and outranges Falco in the air. Falco's aerial game is good in this match-up, but Snake is by no means *****, especially since Falco dies at extremely low damage to Snake's aerials and can take massive damage from them.

I'm the air a lot. I don't know what you're talking about.

Why do you bring up ground games when I am specifically talking about aerial games?

Snake ***** Falco very badly on the ground and does not lose in the air. That's why Snake wins.

All Snake has is priority and range, but it means little because falco is that much faster.
The best of Snake's aerials requires that falco is behind him or above him.
(air and Dair get DI'ed and Fair is terribly slow)

All Snake has is priority and range? Lol. That's more than enough to make a good argument for Snake winning in the air. Falco's aerials aren't fast enough or big enough for him to just use them. He loses priority exchanges far too consistenty for his superior aerial speed to matter much.

Thats not good because it means Snake is VERY predictable whenin the air and has a huge risk when he uses his aerials shorter than FH height.

Risks? Snake dies at 150%+ and Falco dies at ~90% in this match-up. Falco makes a mistake in the air and he can take 29%. If he makes a mistake at ~90% or more, he dies. Snake can make a mistake at 130% and not care. Snake can afford more risks and requires less effort to win.

Hell if Snake tries to take to the air, what is to stop Falco from moving away from Snake's range and just firing multiple lasers?
If Snake has an on par, or better aerial game than Falco, I'll give you three cookies.
Cause it would also mean ike has an amazing game cause he has better range and priority on his aerials.

What is stopping Snake from just landing, powershielding and dodging, and then using his f-tilt or whatever to punish whatever Falco does when Snake gets near him? Minor damage from lasers doesn't matter to Snake when he can't die until 150%+.

Ike's aerial game isn't as good as Snake's because Ike does significantly less damage with his aerials and he has much fewer active frames on his moves. Snake's aerials last a very long time, so they punish airdodges and can randomly be thrown out early to outprioritize Falco's aerials even if Falco delays them.

 

[Mew2King]

neo says im the only mk that knows what im doing lol

 

[Grunt]

well compared to you I'm sure everyone looks like idiots.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Snake doesn't **** Falco on the ground. Only last hit of Snake's Ftilt really outranges Falco. Falco's Jab is safe on shield, hits on frame 2 and will clank with all of Snake's other ground moves easily, so priority is a toss up. Falco's Ftilt doesn't even have to be extremely well spaced to be relatively safe on shield as well. I'm also pretty sure you're underrating Falco's aerial priority, they go through so many other aerials it's nonsense. Gay character.

 

[NinjaLink]

I use a lot more characters than you think. I'm not as diverse as you, but I have a very good understanding of this game and a very good understanding of the top tiers because they are extremely important.

I'm sure you could go 100% Diddy Kong and **** just as hard. I don't even know why you switch so often when your Diddy Kong is capable of such amazing feats and so fun to watch.

I switch around cause he HAS BAD MATCHUPS. Didnt u see me fighting olimar. The matchup is ***** horrible.

 

[Inui]

Falco's aerials don't have low priority. Snake's are just gayer.

Falco's jab is not safe on block.

I switch around cause he HAS BAD MATCHUPS. Didnt u see me fighting olimar. The matchup is ***** horrible.

Olimars at Atomsk's level don't even exist. You didn't have the experience to win. It's not worse than 40/60 for sure.

People say Olimar beats Snake and I can beat Atomsk's Olimar with Snake. I consistently beat it with MK and Marth. I just have a lot more experience against that level of Olimar.

 

[NinjaLink]

Olimars at Atomsk's level don't even exist. You didn't have the experience to win. It's not worse than 40/60 for sure.

People say Olimar beats Snake and I can beat Atomsk's Olimar with Snake. I consistently beat it with MK and Marth. I just have a lot more experience against that level of Olimar.

Thats ignorant to say such a thing. U dont understand the full mechanics of the matchup. Olimar vs snake is prolly even. Marth has a advantage over olimar. Dont say what i had experience with. I already knew it was a gay matchup in the past fighting Starz. Dont Say anything u have no experience against.

 

[Inui]

Thats ignorant to say such a thing. U dont understand the full mechanics of the matchup. Olimar vs snake is prolly even. Marth has a advantage over olimar. Dont say what i had experience with. I already knew it was a gay matchup in the past fighting Starz. Dont Say anything u have no experience against.

I still don't understand why you keep saying I don't know anything. I don't have to play Diddy Kong to notice all of the mistakes you made against Atomsk and realize you didn't play the match-up that well. Atomsk's Olimar isn't anything like the others and it's clearly better, so you didn't have experience against Olimar at that level.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Shellder crew bickering?

Falco jab unsafe on block if used non-stupidly?

Shellder crew bickering?

 

[NinjaLink]

I still don't understand why you keep saying I don't know anything. I don't have to play Diddy Kong to notice all of the mistakes you made against Atomsk and realize you didn't play the match-up that well. Atomsk's Olimar isn't anything like the others and it's clearly better, so you didn't have experience against Olimar at that level.

So tell me every little thing u know about the matchup since u know it all. Its like saying I did ike vs olimar wrong when u have no options to begin with.

I DONT HAVE MANY OPTIONS. THE ONES I HAVE HE CAN EASILY COUNTER WITH SOMETHING ELSE.

 

[Inui]

So tell me every little thing u know about the matchup since u know it all. Its like saying I did ike vs olimar wrong when u have no options to begin with.

I DONT HAVE MANY OPTIONS. THE ONES I HAVE HE CAN EASILY COUNTER WITH SOMETHING ELSE.

You can punish his grab camping with a banana. Bait the grab attempt and throw a banana. You know Olimar is going to fiend for grabs.

Diddy's options in the air when it comes to approaching suck. That's his biggest problem. If you can get around that, you'll do better.

If he's running from you, expect the pivot grab and glide toss backwards with a banana as you dash at him. That is guaranteed to work.

Diddy is more than fast enough to work around Pikmin tossing.

If you get him off the stage, he's pretty screwed, and Diddy can get him off from just one combo off a banana unless it's from the middle of FD or something like that.

You're f-air should be able to outprioritize all of his aerials, but I could be wrong.

What's the big problem with this match-up?

 

[gantrain05]

yeah....a good olimar can **** diddy pretty hard, pikmin spam will actually stop the naners and he can spam them 4x faster than diddy can spam nanerz, and w/out the nanners diddy has absolutely no approach really. i play a very good olimar and i regularly beat good diddys, granted i can't say its on ninjalinks level, i wouldn't know, never played the guy, but i know he's good. I'm not gonna go into an entire matchup convo here, but olimar has the tools to really shut down alot of diddys game.

 

[NinjaLink]

You can punish his grab camping with a banana. Bait the grab attempt and throw a banana. You know Olimar is going to fiend for grabs.

Diddy's options in the air when it comes to approaching suck. That's his biggest problem. If you can get around that, you'll do better.

If he's running from you, expect the pivot grab and glide toss backwards with a banana as you dash at him. That is guaranteed to work.

Diddy is more than fast enough to work around Pikmin tossing.

If you get him off the stage, he's pretty screwed, and Diddy can get him off from just one combo off a banana unless it's from the middle of FD or something like that.

You're f-air should be able to outprioritize all of his aerials, but I could be wrong.

What's the big problem with this match-up?

In the mean time while im camping i have pikmin giving me percent. I have to hope he grabs for me to throw a banana and btw, If theres a pikmin on u while u throw it, it stops the throw. So THATS outta the window. Even so, The olimar can short hop fair as a mixup or fsmash (which blocks the bananas). or just not even try to grab u to begin with being thats his only opening. The grabs arent the biggest problem.

If bananas are the biggest asset and i cant even throw them, I'm supposed to do what again? Also the pikmin that he throws (Forward-B) blocks.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes.

mmk.

Only Chillin's Falco is extremely good as far as I'm concerned. SK92 is probably up there as well. I haven't seen much out of Sethlon recently and Keitaro isn't that good.

okay

Snake's n-air eats through Falco's f-b and f-air. Snake's b-air, u-air, last hit of d-air, and last hit of n-air beat all of Falco's aerials and kill him at very low damage.

Snake outprioritizes and outranges Falco in the air. Falco's aerial game is good in this match-up, but Snake is by no means *****, especially since Falco dies at extremely low damage to Snake's aerials and can take massive damage from them.

ou act like I did not already gree with you on priority and range Inui. Why do you continously ignore what I have said.

Snae's aerial capabilities are inferior primarily on speed.
if range and priority were deciding factors on how good a character was aerially, then Ike would be considered to have the best aerial game.

yet we know it is a result of multiple factors, neither of which outweigh the other in terms of priorit.
So while Snake has range and priority, they don't outweigh the severe lack of speed.
Those moves that don't lack speed, erquire Snake to be in a position in which he is easily predicted.

Falco on the other hand is faster overall and has better options in the air than Snake and his aerials have better purposes.

Falco doesn't have as much range and priority, but his overall attack speed in the air makes up for this and means that if Snake which takes on Falco in the air, he'll get wrecked.
Just because Snak'e attack speed issue in the air is such a drawback.

So Falco has overall better speed, options and aerial capability than Snake.
Oh, and he is a bird too. Automatic aerial winnage.

I'm the air a lot. I don't know what you're talking about.

Hmm I am probably mixing your Snake up with the others one then, apologies,

Snake ***** Falco very badly on the ground and does not lose in the air. That's why Snake wins.

he loses in the air but makes up for it with his incredible ground game.
Thats why he wins. I have yet to see any Snake main including Ally say that Snake can go toe to toe with Falco in the air.

All Snake has is priority and range? Lol. That's more than enough to make a good argument for Snake winning in the air. Falco's aerials aren't fast enough or big enough for him to just use them. He loses priority exchanges far too consistenty for his superior aerial speed to matter much.

you just said all Snake has is priority and range so why re you saying Falco's aerials aren't fast enough when overall, they are and also have better purposes.
If Falco has his back to you, its hard to figure what move he will use. and he doesn't have that nasty issue that Snake does if he were to whiff an aerial.

So he is much more versatile in the air and faster than Snake.

Risks? Snake dies at 150%+ and Falco dies at ~90% in this match-up. Falco makes a mistake in the air and he can take 29%. If he makes a mistake at ~90% or more, he dies. Snake can make a mistake at 130% and not care. Snake can afford more risks and requires less effort to win.

yes Risks. The margin of error for Falco is smaller for Snake.
if Snake whiffs an aerial, he eats a smash or gets juggled.
if Falco whiffs an aerial, its not as easy to punish him, especially since he can use his laser if he feels getting close is a bad idea.
Look at that, his risks are much smaller.
yeah when he makes an error, it hurts more, but the fact he gets punished much, much less while Snake will get punished much more says alot.

so for every 29% assuming no DI) Snake deals out, Falco will be dealing much more

What is stopping Snake from just landing, powershielding and dodging, and th)en using his f-tilt or whatever to punish whatever Falco does when Snake gets near him? Minor damage from lasers doesn't matter to Snake when he can't die until 150%+.

What stops Falco from doing the same?
Actually, what stops Falco from firing a silent laser at his opponent? unlike Snake when he is at a level below Fh height he can freely use his aerials (except Fair) without worry about lag.
or he can laser (to slow down the approaching opponent,) land onthe ground with minimum lag and simply, avoid any possible punishment.

Snake is that much more limited.
if you are falling from FH height, the best you can do is use a grenade to cover yourself.
Can't Nair,bair, Dair, Fair because the lag is too great on those moves and I can easily punish.
Snake is extremely limited and extremely predictable in the air.

Ike's aerial game isn't as good as Snake's because Ike does significantly less damage with his aerials and he has much fewer active frames on his moves. Snake's aerials last a very long time, so they punish airdodges and can randomly be thrown out early to outprioritize Falco's aerials even if Falco delays them.

i highly doubt randomly tossing out moves will work, simply because Falco has ways to deal with it. (seriously if Kirby can't do it, why would Snake?)
one of the issues for Snake is that his aerials last for so very long and so, result in high amounts of lag when he lands below FH height. Above FH height he still has an issue because of their predictable nature.

What stops Falco from pestering Snake with lasers while Snake is in the air? Falco has a good option for harassing Snake aerially.
So what can does Snake have in his aerial repertoire that allows him to do the same to Falco?
What does he have that is of minimum risk that isn't an "all or nothing" attack?
You miss a Nair you WILL get punished.
You miss a bair, Dair, Fair, Uair you WILL get punished.
Falco has moves that stay out a good amount of time but unlike Snake, are faster and do not lag upon landing (except Fair)

The reason Ike's aerial game is BETTER than Snake's is because while they lack power, they have better speed AND better range with similar power.
However, I am more persuaded by what you have said though I still have my doubts.
Agree to disagree on this subject for now?

I want to address what you said about Ike.

You said earlier Snake has range and priority over falco and so that is why he can go head to head with him.
If we say this is true, then for Ike who has both range, speed and priority over Snake, how is he lesser than Snake if he beats out Snake in every other fields except power?

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike's aerial game is better than Snake's by a small margin.

While Ike doesn't have as much active frames, he has better IASA frames and considerably less ending lag, so he's actually doing more in the air than Snake does.

There's a reason why Ike mains always does shorthop N-airs and F-airs.

 

[Inui]

I don't care about addressing anything else because we're going to just go in circles because you will never ever stop arguing with people regardless of being wrong, correct, etc. You say silly stuff too much from your lack of experience and won't ever concede anything to more knowledgable/skilled players.

But I will address this.

You said earlier Snake has range and priority over falco and so that is why he can go head to head with him.
If we say this is true, then for Ike who has both range, speed and priority over Snake, how is he lesser than Snake if he beats out Snake in every other fields except power?

Active frames and severity of each blow.

Ike's aerial game is better than Snake's by a small margin.

While Ike doesn't have as much active frames, he has better IASA frames and considerably less ending lag, so he's actually doing more in the air than Snake does.

There's a reason why Ike mains always does shorthop N-airs and F-airs.

Snake's aerials are every easy to autocancel, so wtf @ caring about lag.

Ike doesn't have a million active frames on his aerials, so he can't **** airdodges nearly as well and he doesn't do wtfmassive damage randomly or kill you at nothingness with his aerials.

 

[BentoBox]

I am completely convinced that secondaries are not necessary. He loses nothing worse than 40/60 and has the tools to beat any character if you are good enough.

I'm also beginning to think that ZSS, Kirby, Lucario, and DK can win tournaments without secondaries.

Too many characters are underrated and MK is overrated.

MK is only easy to learn because he's good and because his metagame has been developed massively by top players like Mew2King, Omni, and Forte. The other characters need top players to start developing them to the same degree.

You see, that's exactly why people are so reluctant to take your words as unconditional truth. You don't ever allow yourself to see past your own horizons and match-ups you've yourself been through and take everything everybody else says as a grain of salt even if they're more experienced than you are in said aspects/matchups... Unless of course you happen to frequent a X player you value much, suddenly, everything they say becomes gospel and you'll be singing the same tune as they are. Just a month ago or so, you would've shut down anybody who claimed what I just bolded. I mean, ZSS, really? Why, because one player happens to do well with her? Don't be a tool. If Edrees showed up more often to your tourneys and ***** Atomsk's Oli, I'm sure you'd then be laying down a new record in that mouth of yours. There are a lot of characters who don't have any match-ups worse than 60:40, Peach for example, you just choose to handpick a few because you're that impressionable.

Just saying.

 

[Inui]

Peach definitely loses worse than 40/60 to Snake and Meta Knight.

I don't think ZSS is viable just because of Snakeee. Her match-ups make her viable.

Why would I have shut down what you bolded?

 

[Turbo Ether]

ZSS is high tier imo.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't care about addressing anything else because we're going to just go in circles because you will never ever stop arguing with people regardless of being wrong, correct, etc. You say silly stuff too much from your lack of experience and won't ever concede anything to more knowledgable/skilled players.

Inui, I like you, don't say stupid things though.
In brawl I admit, I lack the experience of yourself.
Knowledge and experience in general though, the statement becomes untrue.
And I have conceded my arguments in the past.
I am just hard to play.

Active frames and severity of each blow.

Power difference between the two isn't very large and the speed and range and priority of Ike's moves supersedes Snake's active frames.

Snake's aerials are every easy to autocancel, so wtf @ caring about lag.

Which ones can Snake freely use below FH height without lag.

Ike doesn't have a million active frames on his aerials, so he can't **** airdodges nearly as well and he doesn't do wtfmassive damage randomly or kill you at nothingness with his aerials.

WTF massive damage comes from not DIing, and you can attack afterwards.
Ike does single hits, is faster, has comparable power, has better range and priority.
I don't know other than power Snake doesn't really compare.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Wow, for a game that's terribly unbalanced and has no depth, there sure are a lot of tournament viable characters!

 

[gantrain05]

Peach definitely loses worse than 40/60 to Snake and Meta Knight.

I don't think ZSS is viable just because of Snakeee. Her match-ups make her viable.

Why would I have shut down what you bolded?

peach is actually pretty much at 60-40 with both snake and MK just fyi.

 

[HeroMystic]

Snake's aerials are every easy to autocancel, so wtf @ caring about lag.

Ike doesn't have a million active frames on his aerials, so he can't **** airdodges nearly as well and he doesn't do wtfmassive damage randomly or kill you at nothingness with his aerials.

...Randomly kill you at nonthingess? lol, at least come up with a damage percentage.

And you seem to be only talking about N-air with it's 'very easy to autocancel' and 'million active frames'. B-air does not auto-cancel (although it has a rather big lingering hitbox). U-air does not auto-cancel, D-air does not auto-cancel.

Not to mention, you can DI out of N-air and D-air to avoid the 'wtfmassive damage'.

Ike's may not last as long nor cause as much damage, but he uses them more due to the fact that he has less lag, better range, and a disjointed hitbox. That, and B-air, U-air, and D-air are great kill moves.

But as said before, Ike's is only better by a small margin

 

[LuigiKing]

No secondary is required to win a large tournament with Snake, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Falco, Dedede, Game and Watch, or Marth.

You do realize how stupid that makes you sound. No one cares that you're big bad Inui, or that I'm just a scrub or whatever, that was just a stupid statement. No way around it.

 

[Inui]

Power difference between the two isn't very large and the speed and range and priority of Ike's moves supersedes Snake's active frames.

Snake can do 29% with two of them and they all kill at stupidly low damage. Ike doesn't have that and he can't freely jump off stages with aerials like Snake can. Snake can jump off and use n-air and **** the vast majority of characters without even taking a real risk. The active frames of the move making it a super gay edgeguarding strategy.

Which ones can Snake freely use below FH height without lag.

U-air. D-air moving to the side, which ***** shields and is a super gay tech-chase.

WTF massive damage comes from not DIing, and you can attack afterwards.
Ike does single hits, is faster, has comparable power, has better range and priority.
I don't know other than power Snake doesn't really compare.

I don't find it easy to DI out of the n-air. I've caught players like Mew2King, Forte, Omni, Atomsk, teh_spamerer, etc. with the full n-air many times recently. D-air is easier to get out of, but you won't if you're on the ground.

Ike can't use his aerial game as much as Snake can. Snake can freely leap off stages a lot, while Ike can't do this. Ike also isn't even viable enough to apply his aerial game against any characters that matter.

You do realize how stupid that makes you sound. No one cares that you're big bad Inui, or that I'm just a scrub or whatever, that was just a stupid statement. No way around it.

You're wrong. Results prove you wrong. Plenty of players win big tournaments without switching or the need to switch.

peach is actually pretty much at 60-40 with both snake and MK just fyi.

How is that even possible?

U-air does not auto-cancel

Yes, it does. D-air will if you're moving to the side while using it. F-air and b-air will not, though.

Ike's aerial game doesn't get to be applied as much as Snake's due to how unviable he is.

Wow, for a game that's terribly unbalanced and has no depth, there sure are a lot of tournament viable characters!

Brawl is deeper and more balanced than I previously thought.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Ike can't use his aerial game as much as Snake can. Snake can freely leap off stages a lot, while Ike can't do this. Ike also isn't even viable enough to apply his aerial game against any characters that matter.

Really? Whenever I try this, even if I hit I'm forced to cipher b/c of Snakes fall speed. When I miss, I'm really screwed.

EDIT: Maybe it's because I'm using Nair instead of Bair. I'm not a very good Snake

 

[BentoBox]

Peach definitely loses worse than 40/60 to Snake and Meta Knight.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I main Peach, I happen to do well with her, and I also happen to know much more about both match-ups than you do. What do you have under your belt besides theories at this point? Replace all these Is with Edrees since that surely will have much more of an effect on you. He'll gladly tell you that MK isn't even Peach's worst match-up. And Snake? *** plz.

I don't think ZSS is viable just because of Snakeee. Her match-ups make her viable.

If Snakeee wasn't in your scene, you most likely wouldn't have noticed the character, ever.

Why would I have shut down what you bolded?

The point of my post was to highlight the fact that the truth you spew is inconsistent. It changes every **** month. And every time you just expect us to cling on for the ride. It wasn't long ago when you nonchalantly claimed that chars under the top tier were all mediocre and not worth much attention. But the metagame evolved, you acknowledged that, and now, the truth has changed, what next? Fact is, stop trying to shut down people on the basis that you talking with reputable players must make you right because it definitely does not grant you insight over the unceasing changes in the meta.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You have no idea what you are talking about. I main Peach, I happen to do well with her, and I also happen to know much more about both match-ups than you do. What do you have under your belt besides theories at this point? Replace all these Is with Edrees since that surely will have much more of an effect on you. He'll gladly tell you that MK isn't even Peach's worst match-up. And Snake? *** plz.

I could totally see Peach messing with campy Snake. MK though? That's a little harder to figure.

 

[gantrain05]

I could totally see Peach messing with campy Snake. MK though? That's a little harder to figure.

well peach is one of those characters MK has a hell of a problem gimping, and peach's Dair will kinda **** MK, peach has a Dthrow pivot grab CG on MK which will end with a Ftilt/Utilt depending on DI, she really doesn't do too badly against the little bat.

 

[BentoBox]

I could totally see Peach messing with campy Snake. MK though? That's a little harder to figure.

You're free to come visit our boards any time :D. Fact is, MK is not a Peach counter, as anything beyond 60:40 is effectively a counter.

edit: This color is so hawt.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

well peach is one of those characters MK has a hell of a problem gimping, and peach's Dair will kinda **** MK, peach has a Dthrow pivot grab CG on MK which will end with a Ftilt/Utilt depending on DI, she really doesn't do too badly against the little bat.

And she has the power of turnips. It's like steak for Sonic, except less edible and more throwable.

 

[HeroMystic]

Snake can do 29% with two of them and they all kill at stupidly low damage. Ike doesn't have that and he can't freely jump off stages with aerials like Snake can. Snake can jump off and use n-air and **** the vast majority of characters without even taking a real risk. The active frames of the move making it a super gay edgeguarding strategy.

Ike does use his aerials to edgeguard. He has a spike (D-air), Aether, B-air, and F-air. The super long hibox of Snake's N-air isn't there, but saying Ike can't 'freely jump off' stages like Snake can is a pretty ignorant argument.

Ike can't use his aerial game as much as Snake can. Snake can freely leap off stages a lot, while Ike can't do this. Ike also isn't even viable enough to apply his aerial game against any characters that matter.

Exactly how much do you know about Ike?

N-air is Ike's main approach mechanism because it virtually has no ending lag. He can fast-fall into it unlike Snake. F-air is a spacing tool and keeps opponents away like Snake's N-air, but unlike Snake, Ike can fast fall into it and react fast enough to not be punished by the ending lag. Not to mention they can't DI out of it since it's a single hit.

However, you are right when you say Ike isn't very viable.

Yes, it does. D-air will if you're moving to the side while using it. F-air and b-air will not, though.

Mmmkay, but all of Ike's aerials auto-cancel except for D-air.

Ike's aerial game doesn't get to be applied as much as Snake's due to how unviable he is.

Is THAT how you judge which aerial game is better? That's completely irrelevant.

 

[Inui]

Really? Whenever I try this, even if I hit I'm forced to cipher b/c of Snakes fall speed. When I miss, I'm really screwed.

EDIT: Maybe it's because I'm using Nair instead of Bair. I'm not a very good Snake

If you hit with any part of that n-air, the opponent is screwed. Who cares if you have to cypher back up? If you miss, just C4 yourself if you think you're opponent can gimp you from your mistake.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I main Peach, I happen to do well with her, and I also happen to know much more about both match-ups than you do. What do you have under your belt besides theories at this point? Replace all these Is with Edrees since that surely will have much more of an effect on you. He'll gladly tell you that MK isn't even Peach's worst match-up. And Snake? *** plz.

I do not understand why people would say "you have no idea what you're talking about" to an established top player. It's nonsense. I wouldn't be discussing the match-ups if I didn't know what I was talking about. I'm also both a high level Snake and Meta Knight, so I know a lot about their match-ups. How do you know more than me about the match-ups? I play two of the three characters we're discussing at a much higher level than you play Peach.

Peach can't turnip camp against Meta Knight due to his speed, can't effectively beat the tornado with anything, gets edgeguarded extremely easily, and is ***** in terms of priority and range. How is this match any contest at all?

Snake destroys her at very low percents, outprioritizes her, outranges her, outcamps her, and lives forever because Peach has nothing that kills Snake at anything even close to low damage besides a charge u-smash. I don't understand how this match-up can be close at all.

You're free to educate me on these match-ups if you'd like to.

If Snakeee wasn't in your scene, you most likely wouldn't have noticed the character, ever.

This has what to do with ZSS's viability as a character?

The point of my post was to highlight the fact that the truth you spew is inconsistent. It changes every **** month. And every time you just expect us to cling on for the ride. It wasn't long ago when you nonchalantly claimed that chars under the top tier were all mediocre and not worth much attention. But the metagame evolved, you acknowledged that, and now, the truth has changed, what next? Fact is, stop trying to shut down people on the basis that you talking with reputable players must make you right because it definitely does not grant you insight over the unceasing changes in the meta.

Most characters under the top tier are indeed pretty mediocre. Marth, for instance, is viable but still not that great. He loses 40/60 to MK and has definite losses to Snake and Dedede to deal with. All of those characters are extremely common in the tournament scene. Marth is viable, but a Marth player has to work very hard to win and be extremely skilled. Characters like Fox and Luigi of the B tier aren't viable due to wtfterrible match-ups, but most high tiers are viable.

Ike does use his aerials to edgeguard. He has a spike (D-air), Aether, B-air, and F-air. The super long hibox of Snake's N-air isn't there, but saying Ike can't 'freely jump off' stages like Snake can is a pretty ignorant argument.

What?

Ike can't far jump off the stage, n-air, cover almost the entire distance from top of the map to the bottom with active frames, and then freely recover without caring.

His edgeguarding is terrible compared to Snake's because he can't go off the stage.

Is THAT how you judge which aerial game is better? That's completely irrelevant.

No, but it certainly matters. It wouldn't even matter if Ike had the best aerial game if he never got to use it.

 

[gantrain05]

whelp, i will just take everything inui says with a grain of salt from now on, saying he has **** matchups against peach when he doesn't even know the character lmao. sure man....sure. and fyi, turnips are ALWAYS helpful, and just explain to me how peach gets ***** in priority? she has some of the highest priority arials IN THE GAME, you can't deny that, its a fact, and snake can't **** her at low percents, peach can easily avoid snakes camp game and can bait out his tilts better than just about any other character, shows how much you think you know about these matchups.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

whelp, i will just take everything inui says with a grain of salt from now on, saying he has **** matchups against peach when he doesn't even know the character lmao. sure man....sure. and fyi, turnips are ALWAYS helpful, and just explain to me how peach gets ***** in priority? she has some of the highest priority arials IN THE GAME, you can't deny that, its a fact, and snake can't **** her at low percents, peach can easily avoid snakes camp game and can bait out his tilts better than just about any other character, shows how much you think you know about these matchups.

How can peach have high priority aerials? I know aerials can't clank, and I know she doesn't have large disjoints...

 

[Vylit]

My friend has said something wise. He's exceptionally good and I believe he could become a very good Brawl and Melee player if he wanted to. He said, "Any game where they have to ban a character isn't a game worth playing". I believe this quote applies itself here because MetaKnight isn't as impossible to beat as many of you seem to think. Sorry to generalize that too.
To defend my statement I will use an example of a ban-worthy character in my opinion. In short, someone that has a zero percent chance of losing. That's a ban-able character. MetaKnight has more than just a zero or a one though. It's not as impossible as a lot of people make it out to be.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

My friend has said something wise. He's exceptionally good and I believe he could become a very good Brawl and Melee player if he wanted to. He said, "Any game where they have to ban a character isn't a game worth playing". I believe this quote applies itself here because MetaKnight isn't as impossible to beat as many of you seem to think. Sorry to generalize that too.
To defend my statement I will use an example of a ban-worthy character in my opinion. In short, someone that has a zero percent chance of losing. That's a ban-able character. MetaKnight has more than just a zero or a one though. It's not as impossible as a lot of people make it out to be.

I highly advise reading the last page of the thread you post in before you post in the future