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Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?
- Thread starter Rhubarbo
- Start date
Guys, buffing characters to Fox level is a wonderful thing, when /done right/. The only problem is that everything so far has been trial and error, which I guess isn't really a /problem/, exactly. But absolutely no one has acknowledged that at all, either way. Let's face it foreal, Melee-esque Fox, Falco, and Marth are literally the greatest thing to ever happen to Smash. Without them, the major tournament scenes would have probably NEVER started. We wouldn't have this beautiful game nor the dedicated individuals spending almost all of their free time on it. The entire world would still think everything Smash related as nothing more than a joke party game.
The only actual thing this mod needs is tiny, TINY nerfs to anything that's truly problematic, and not just some **** that a bunch of kids whine about because they don't feel like learning anything about the game.
The only actual thing this mod needs is tiny, TINY nerfs to anything that's truly problematic, and not just some **** that a bunch of kids whine about because they don't feel like learning anything about the game.
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Rhubarbo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 2,035
I agree that this needs to be addressed. I think Samus and Mario are equally interesting as Marth and Fox in Melee, but that's just me. Try and be more respectful, though; that last paragraph was unnecessary.
I apologize if you're offended by the truth.
Fortress
Smash Master
The secret to being offensive and disagreeable is to not apologize. Take a page out of my book.
Class dismissed.
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GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
"offended by the truth"
That's some gamefaqs level stupidity right there. Statements like this will sooner land you on ignore lists than lend you ears.
That's some gamefaqs level stupidity right there. Statements like this will sooner land you on ignore lists than lend you ears.
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Fortress
Smash Master
Do you find it weird that every time I see you post and see that Marth profile portrait, I read your posts in the English VA's voice for Seto Kaiba..?
Also, somebody mentioned earlier what can be done about Falco's shine to help him out in some way. How about increasing the properties of its momentum-cancelling factor, closer to (but not at the level of) bucket braking? A little help to his recovery game couldn't really hurt if other negative changes were being discussed for him.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
I saw Seto Kaiba and immediately thought of the abridged series Kaiba. I don't think I have the honor of being voiced in either, but it sounds ****ing awesome.
As long as you aren't excluding yourself from that number (because really, look in a mirror), then I wouldn't disagree.
And I wasn't implying that. I directly said that making statements like "You're just offended by the truth" is middle school level garbage used to come off like what you're saying is absolute and right.
(Pro tip: it's not)
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Fortress
Smash Master
Well, I was implying that I'm a dogmatic ass, but, d'ohkay.
That voice works out better, actually.
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GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
I now came to the realization minutes after you mentioned this that Marth in this picture does look like blue haired Kaiba.
I'm okay with this.
I'm okay with this.
I've never been the type to post multi paragraph rebuttals on the internet literally doing nothing more than complaining about things that don't even need to be complained about instead of playing. So no, I'm not included in that statistic.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Nope, you chose to belittle people instead on the rare occasion you do post. Regardless of complaining or not, choosing not to be an asshole is a pretty good choice and I would recommend that.
EDIT: Also wanted to mention you called us white knights. Do you even know what that means
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InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
I take it this is the new Tier List Speculation thread now? Because all the ********, ranting, and generally unproductive nonsense seems to have migrated here and the thread has pretty much gone off the rails for it.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
That's such a cop-out answer. We've clearly already experienced the PMDT's multiple attempts to make characters at least as good as or *GASP* even better than the spacies. Nobody likes this because everybody realizes that giving them ridiculous tools is the only possible way to bring them up to spacie level. Then everybody complains, and then in the next version those characters get toned down while the space animals stay the same. It's stupid, predictable cycle where the space animals always come out on top because everything revolves around them.
I kind of don't give a **** about people's feelings on the internet. Being all rainbows and sunshine for everyone doesn't help anything. It only promotes more of the problem. Maybe if people chose to grow up and quit being giant whinelords there wouldn't be a reason to call it out. It's people like that that keep this community seen as an actual joke across the world. QQ all you want, but that isn't going to change no matter what you reply to me with.
Fortress
Smash Master
If it makes you feel better, I was asking:
"Also, somebody mentioned earlier what can be done about Falco's shine to help him out in some way. How about increasing the properties of its momentum-cancelling factor, closer to (but not at the level of) bucket braking? A little help to his recovery game couldn't really hurt if other negative changes were being discussed for him."
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
You don't have to care about feelings, you just have to not muddle your points in-between a ton of garbage like you constantly do. Stating a point clearly and concisely and throwing out insults aren't mutually inclusive qualities. You don't have to be polite, but at least be civil.
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Vashimus
Smash Master
Too late.
No one here is asking you to sugarcoat things or sell them fairytales wrapped in gumdrops and rainbows. But if you can't have a respectful argument with somebody or at the very least show some tact, then you can **** right the hell off.
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
Whoa 15 pages and still no progress, who could have known a fox discussion would be like this?
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Pwnz0rz Man
Smash Lord
What kind of progress do you expect from a discussion about the game? It's more for our enjoyment than anything else, since it's not like anything we say is going to have a real effect on the PMDT's decisions as they've probably heard it all already.
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GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Oh yeah, I was going to make a point after seeing SFTP's post.
Here's a summary of my mindset on things:
-PMDT announces in blog posts that excess elements are going to be pulled back (one of the posts is literally called "Trimming the Fat")
-Going off of this, we know with near certainty that top tiers will be affected the most by this
-With this all in mind, all I ask is that Fox/Falco (but mostly Fox) are not immune to these design decisions; I do not ask for any specific nerfs (I have ideas, but that's it), just that these characters fall in line with everyone else to whatever degree necessary
Here's a summary of my mindset on things:
-PMDT announces in blog posts that excess elements are going to be pulled back (one of the posts is literally called "Trimming the Fat")
-Going off of this, we know with near certainty that top tiers will be affected the most by this
-With this all in mind, all I ask is that Fox/Falco (but mostly Fox) are not immune to these design decisions; I do not ask for any specific nerfs (I have ideas, but that's it), just that these characters fall in line with everyone else to whatever degree necessary
D
Deleted member
Guest
You're right. Instead of having threads for discussing this clearly controversial and potentially game-changing topic, we should just ignore the problem and hope it goes away. That's always the best answer.
NO WAIT, I take that back. Clearly the best answer is to go into a thread and inform everybody how stupid the thread is/ask for the thread to be closed. That'll certainly further the discussion.
PootisKonga
Smash Ace
While the salt may simply be confirmed, I played and almost lost to a Falco player somewhat above my skill level who attacked near-exclusively with Shine. Could I have DI'ed or approached better? Sure, I'm still learning. But that should not be possible except against the most brain-dead/first-time players.
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
The point is, the op asked if the space animals should be immune to changes, and the answer is no. In fact, the answer has been no since 2.6, when the Pmdt made it clear that they can and will change characters if they feel the need to, INCLUDING fox and Falco.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
Falco's shine has like no range, if he is going in exclusively with shine you just have to space yourself properly and grab. and if you are getting pressured you have to buffer roll.
I'm surprised you mentioned having trouble with shine, most people have trouble with lasers
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Fortress
Smash Master
Okay, cool. Now, what kinds of changes are practical, and reasonable? What kind of changes are even warranted? It's obvious that the majority of PM players agree that Melee Top 8 should not be exceptions to change, but what kinds of changes are appropriate? It seems every suggestion from anybody is wrong.
Dragoomba
Smash Lord
Bro, you do realize any company (or group of people) delivering a product to the masses HAVE to appeal to the majority of whiners to be successful though, right? Even though Project M is non-profit and was developed out of the love for the community, they still have to appeal to the masses if they want the game to be successful.
Yeah, the majority of Smashers who insult the game with names like "Project M(ake it back to the stage)" may be annoying, but for the most part they do have a point, and the PM team is already addressing major concerns like that in an attempt to make the game much more enjoyable for everyone.
Appeal to everyone in your targeted demographic, don't ignore the "whiners" with valid complaints when aiming to deliver a successful product.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
[
It's always fair to ignore whiners.
Whining is done without any rational reason
There is a difference between whining and constructive criticism though.
It's always fair to ignore whiners.
Whining is done without any rational reason
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Jaedrik
Man-at-Arms-at-Keyboard
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2009
- Messages
- 5,054
Spacies are a convenient thing to blame all of PM's problems on.
Perhaps it is so because it is something the developers feel like they have to balance around it, so they denounce the pressure to keep them the same.
It's easy to take the work of others and blame it. They feel frustrated that their attempts aren't working, so instead they look to what is given rather than to what they have done as the primary issue. Perhaps it is true, perhaps it is not. But I question the wisdom of the PMDT.
Balance is not a fundamentally desirable thing if it, in any real capacity, destroys gameplay. I would be wary to remove what beautiful things exist as of now.
Perhaps it is so because it is something the developers feel like they have to balance around it, so they denounce the pressure to keep them the same.
It's easy to take the work of others and blame it. They feel frustrated that their attempts aren't working, so instead they look to what is given rather than to what they have done as the primary issue. Perhaps it is true, perhaps it is not. But I question the wisdom of the PMDT.
Balance is not a fundamentally desirable thing if it, in any real capacity, destroys gameplay. I would be wary to remove what beautiful things exist as of now.
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Why are you putting the blame on the PMBRDT ?
We are whining, I can give you that, but none of us have a purple ribbon.
The irony is killing me.
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I have a Purple Ribbon. This is further proof that I am the best poster in this thread and the rest of you should quit posting smash life talking
1. PMBR doesn't develop around a Fox-Falco power curve. If I had to venture (and assuming they are targeting a specific "power level" to begin with), I suspect it's much closer to Doc/Samus/Ganon's level, all the way up to NTSC Marth level.
2. Problems do not stem from actively attempting to make characters as good as Spacies. Again, that's probably not their ideal for balance, and chars like Mewtwo don't turn out that good due to a perverse ideology of making super hero characters. Issues tend to stem from a lack of restraint: smaller tools or changes that aren't realized on the grand scale adding up to a formidable character. If you assume old Ike/Lucario/Sonic were the result of a top-down approach to specifically craft them to slay Fox, you're beyond wrong. Stuff like that can be fine tuned: Uthrow CG that only tends to wreck people of that weight/FF status, quick throw/edgeguard opportunities that aren't fatal on floaties or better recoveries, etc. There is a difference between "as good as" Spacie, vs "can fight evenly" with Spacie. The goal would aim towards the latter, not the former Superman Option.
3. You don't have to balance character at the Fox/Falco level to have an enjoyable game. People think that Fox and Falco being present, in relatively untouched states, is why MU's and character development skews so heavily. The truth IMO is that MU's and development skew because of characters and tools that don't have restraint on "who can I mess up?" An example would be characters who CG or combo from throw, a large demographic of weights and fall speeds (Snake Uthrow, Pit Dthrow, Lucas Dthrow, etc). If those throws were all changed to be extremely deadly on Spacies (think Marth Uthrow but a tad better!), but not as effective on other characters, you wouldn't have as much of a balance or skewing issue EVEN THOUGH making those throws 150% more effective on Spacies would fit the definition of crafting them to slay spacies.
3.1 Sonic doesn't just hit Spacies and follow them relentlessly, he does the same to many floatier characters too. Mewtwo doesn't just get cool combos on Spacies, his versatility lets him extend pretty far for finishers, edgeguards, and combos on a myraid of combo weights. You take that away, but make his throws and attacks even stronger against Spacies, you might have a more reasonable character since "Charizard" or X character might no longer fit the bill of "what can I wreck?" These are decent examples of what I am talking about
4. Always look to the question "Who can I wreck?". Many times, if there's an issue, it's not from targeting Spacies. Usually, it's oversight on how many other characters get wrecked by a tool that may not even be targeting Spacies in the first place. The only time this isn't true, is when characters get buffs that affect neutral and try to keep up with Spacies. Better dash speed, better x stuffing option to beat Fox Nair Plane, etc. I treat those as kind of different, because many of those changes are universally helpful for any character on a very fundamental level. Faster characters are better than slower characters usually, characters with more range or disjoint are better than ones without it, etc.
1. PMBR doesn't develop around a Fox-Falco power curve. If I had to venture (and assuming they are targeting a specific "power level" to begin with), I suspect it's much closer to Doc/Samus/Ganon's level, all the way up to NTSC Marth level.
2. Problems do not stem from actively attempting to make characters as good as Spacies. Again, that's probably not their ideal for balance, and chars like Mewtwo don't turn out that good due to a perverse ideology of making super hero characters. Issues tend to stem from a lack of restraint: smaller tools or changes that aren't realized on the grand scale adding up to a formidable character. If you assume old Ike/Lucario/Sonic were the result of a top-down approach to specifically craft them to slay Fox, you're beyond wrong. Stuff like that can be fine tuned: Uthrow CG that only tends to wreck people of that weight/FF status, quick throw/edgeguard opportunities that aren't fatal on floaties or better recoveries, etc. There is a difference between "as good as" Spacie, vs "can fight evenly" with Spacie. The goal would aim towards the latter, not the former Superman Option.
3. You don't have to balance character at the Fox/Falco level to have an enjoyable game. People think that Fox and Falco being present, in relatively untouched states, is why MU's and character development skews so heavily. The truth IMO is that MU's and development skew because of characters and tools that don't have restraint on "who can I mess up?" An example would be characters who CG or combo from throw, a large demographic of weights and fall speeds (Snake Uthrow, Pit Dthrow, Lucas Dthrow, etc). If those throws were all changed to be extremely deadly on Spacies (think Marth Uthrow but a tad better!), but not as effective on other characters, you wouldn't have as much of a balance or skewing issue EVEN THOUGH making those throws 150% more effective on Spacies would fit the definition of crafting them to slay spacies.
3.1 Sonic doesn't just hit Spacies and follow them relentlessly, he does the same to many floatier characters too. Mewtwo doesn't just get cool combos on Spacies, his versatility lets him extend pretty far for finishers, edgeguards, and combos on a myraid of combo weights. You take that away, but make his throws and attacks even stronger against Spacies, you might have a more reasonable character since "Charizard" or X character might no longer fit the bill of "what can I wreck?" These are decent examples of what I am talking about
4. Always look to the question "Who can I wreck?". Many times, if there's an issue, it's not from targeting Spacies. Usually, it's oversight on how many other characters get wrecked by a tool that may not even be targeting Spacies in the first place. The only time this isn't true, is when characters get buffs that affect neutral and try to keep up with Spacies. Better dash speed, better x stuffing option to beat Fox Nair Plane, etc. I treat those as kind of different, because many of those changes are universally helpful for any character on a very fundamental level. Faster characters are better than slower characters usually, characters with more range or disjoint are better than ones without it, etc.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Guise lets all be fwends
Fox gets his Brawl up smash. Still very strong, but its not like Melee up smash. But hey. One more nair/bair/5 more lasers/one extra waveshine.
Up air easier to SDI.
Laser max distance=distance of BF.
This is all Fox really needs to be nerfed, and still maintains his Melee style
Plz be happy err'one
Fox gets his Brawl up smash. Still very strong, but its not like Melee up smash. But hey. One more nair/bair/5 more lasers/one extra waveshine.
Up air easier to SDI.
Laser max distance=distance of BF.
This is all Fox really needs to be nerfed, and still maintains his Melee style
Plz be happy err'one
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I can honestly agree to that.
Or at least throw up my hands, say "Good enough" and never speak of it again.
Or at least throw up my hands, say "Good enough" and never speak of it again.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
****, why exactly do people somehow feel the need to voice this kind of crap?
"DOESN'T MATTER WHAT U SAY, THIS IS A FAN MOD MADE BY FANS FOR FANS, THE TEAM HAS EXPRESSED SERIOUS INTEREST IN COMMUNITY FEEDBACK BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU SAY NAO OR EVARR NOPE SAY NOTHING SHUT UP"
If you have some sort of crippling insecurities about people giving feedback to the PMDT, deal with it. As long as there is an avenue for our opinions to be voiced, it will happen. If the PMDT don't want to hear it, they'll ignore it or, even better, lock the thread.
*looks around*
Seems fine to me. Carry on.
Bruh... wut are you doing?
It was kind of a sarcastic comment, just for funzies and then... that ****... LMAO
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Rᴏb
still here, just to suffer
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,595
@
Thane of Blue Flames
My god, your outburst doesn't resemble what he said in the slightest. Calm down. he also happens to be right
The spacies are going to be better in 3.5.
quick someone try to interpret what I mean and continue this great thread
Thane of Blue Flames
My god, your outburst doesn't resemble what he said in the slightest. Calm down. he also happens to be rightThe spacies are going to be better in 3.5.
quick someone try to interpret what I mean and continue this great thread
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