Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[Bleck]

let's all talk about another terrible anime instead

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

@ Thane of Blue Flames My god, your outburst doesn't resemble what he said in the slightest. Calm down. he also happens to be right

The spacies are going to be better in 3.5.
quick someone try to interpret what I mean and continue this great thread

I have like two berserk buttons. Trying to shut down discussions is one of them.

 

[Jaedrik]

Why are you putting the blame on the PMBRDT ?
We are whining, I can give you that, but none of us have a purple ribbon.

The irony is killing me.

I do believe you misinterpret me.
I was simply stating a theory on the disposition of the PMDT. I acknowledged that it could be true or not.

 

[Rᴏb]

what's the other?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Sheer idiocy

 

[Bleck]

I do believe you misinterpret me.
I was simply stating

somebody get this kid a monocle

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

somebody get this kid a monocle

... I think I might be older than you, tbf.

 

[PlateProp]

****, why exactly do people somehow feel the need to voice this kind of crap?

"DOESN'T MATTER WHAT U SAY, THIS IS A FAN MOD MADE BY FANS FOR FANS, THE TEAM HAS EXPRESSED SERIOUS INTEREST IN COMMUNITY FEEDBACK BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU SAY NAO OR EVARR NOPE SAY NOTHING SHUT UP"

If you have some sort of crippling insecurities about people giving feedback to the PMDT, deal with it. As long as there is an avenue for our opinions to be voiced, it will happen. If the PMDT don't want to hear it, they'll ignore it or, even better, lock the thread.

*looks around*

Seems fine to me. Carry on.

PMBR keeps the thread open because they like to see us squirm like worms over things we cant even change

I say we rise up and create a new team, the PMBRAK (Project M Back Room Ass Kickers), and change this game for the good of all the people!

 

[Rᴏb]

who were the 2 ****lords that liked this on facebook???

 

[Bleck]

... I think I might be older than you, tbf.

nope

who were the 2 ****lords that liked this on facebook???

oh my goodness we can do that? ? ?

 

[TimeSmash]

Why not "Sign up to see what your friends like." ?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I have like two berserk buttons. Trying to shut down discussions is one of them.

...You are gonna have so much unnecessary anger to repress/channel later throughout your life if you really think every topic ever deserves bringing up or has that privilege. lol "freedom of speech."

Here's advice from someone who has been/is often in this scenario:
Stop choosing anger here. You really think getting tight over something getting silenced will change anything but your blood pressure, lol? Believe me; take it easy. You'll live longer, and be happier.

Don't be ever be emotionally invested to the point you're a defense force, pls~

 

[Narpas_sword]

@ MechWarriorNY takes everything easy.

Everyone's notifications filled with his 'likes' can testify for this.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

...Not everything, but I tend to have people looking at me like deer-in-headlights/physically taking steps back and/or flinching away if I get any worse than a neutral expression/very light frown, so yeah; I try to be anything but an overly stressed edgelord.

My experiences tell me getting angry is stupid. So I don't.(usually)
lol

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

What differentiates changes to spacies that most spacies-players would be fine with from changes that would be controversial?

I mean, surely most people would come to accept nerfs along the lines of giving Fox a PAL-eque Up-smash, or making shine do zero damage, right?

I'm a Falco main in Melee and (although I'm trying to improve with ZSS) Falco is my best character by far. However, I would be 100% fine with logical nerfs to my character as long as the general play style and "spirit" of Falco is not taken away.

I mean, it seems to me that the PM blogposts have been hinting toward reasonable nerfs, not drastic character redesigns. Isn't this a good thing for everyone?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

inb4defenseforcesays"no"

 

[nimigoha]

I don't think shines should do 0%. It's a percent-building tool.

I'd like Fox's Usmash to take a KB nerf and Falco's pretty balanced in my books. He doesn't have cheap kills like Fox does.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm also a Melee Falco player. Even though I've put waaaaay more time into practicing Toon Link, my Falco still does better in bracket.

I don't think he needs straight up nerfs in quite the same way that Fox does, but here's some changes that I wouldn't mind

- Finite range on the lasers. It's pretty dumb that they can interrupt stuff like Samus charging her shot from all the way across any stage.

- Slight size decrease on fsmash hitbox

- Some nerf in exchange for slightly better throw options. Falco's throw is pretty OK in Melee, where the overwhelming majority of the relevant characters were either fastfallers or close to it. In P:M's meta, his throws are kinda next to useless. In exactly what fashion they could stand to change, I'm not sure. It would be cool if he could consistently get some kind of followup, but it's possible that there's an existing DI trap or something that I'm not yet aware of.

- Possible slight damage decrease on dair to force Falco to make a choice between #1 combo starter/likely shield pokes (dair) vs solid range+shieldstun (nair)

 

[InfinityCollision]

Also, somebody mentioned earlier what can be done about Falco's shine to help him out in some way. How about increasing the properties of its momentum-cancelling factor, closer to (but not at the level of) bucket braking? A little help to his recovery game couldn't really hurt if other negative changes were being discussed for him.

I could see that. Though Falco's up-b might be getting buffed iirc, if his onstage game gets touched then you're basically stuck buffing some other aspect of his onstage game or tweaking his recovery. Improving shine stalling isn't a big change, but it'd contribute to his recovery mixups.

Stuff like that can be fine tuned: Uthrow CG that only tends to wreck people of that weight/FF status, quick throw/edgeguard opportunities that aren't fatal on floaties or better recoveries, etc. There is a difference between "as good as" Spacie, vs "can fight evenly" with Spacie. The goal would aim towards the latter, not the former Superman Option.

Eh... yes and no. Deliberately handing out chaingrabs is a design choice I'm not really okay with, nor does it really fit with PM's design philosophy. The other idea is workable provided it's not free and it's designed in a way that compliments existing options rather than totally changing your play in a handful of matches. Additionally, you can only tune these things so finely - for example, an uthrow chaingrab would enable (or disable) followups from uthrow on other characters as well. That's not something you can realistically avoid, and it has to be borne in mind.

 

[DMG]

You reduce the number of characters who get bodied by the throw though. Universally useful throws give other characters way more trouble, than say Marth Uthrow on the entire cast. Sure it might suck for other light FF's (Diddy, Lucas, MK, whatever) but that's maybe 8 characters vs 30+ characters that say GG once one of the prior throws catches them

I'm not a huge fan of giving everyone CG's on Spacies, but that would be the more likely outcome if PMBR was trying to tailor everyone to slay Spacies.

 

[MLGF]

TBH, my big problem with buffing other's to Fox level is that the OTHER 7 REALLY FUN VIABLE MELEE CHARACTERS become outclassed. When I play Marth, a character I really love to play most of the time, I feel as if I'm hopelessly outclassed by a lot of characters because Marth level tools was never on par with Fox level tools in the first place. And when so many characters have Fox level tools, it makes characters that are clearly well made invalidated. If characters like Marth and Sheik, along with Brawl newcomers and such on their level, have to be made invalidated in order to keep Fox the same as Melee but balanced, it makes the game feel painfully unfun.

Now, I used to defend spacies because I thought they didn't have so much power in their meta. But I realized that when they design characters to have as many great things as Fox, the problem comes in. Mewtwo has so many things that Marth has and then crazy mobility, Diddy has a better item then Peach with better combos and recovery in exchange for a combo weight, Meta Knight and Pit (IMO) invalidates Sheik due to doing what she does and then some. I used to not think it was a problem, but then I realized when you make characters have as many tools as Fox/Falco then clearly some characters will inevitably leave others out in the dust.

 

[RomeDogg]

I mean, I don't think you are going to get many people arguing that Link's rang isn't dumb. Especially Link mains as it polarizes his kit, along with Dthrow to Dair, to mean that he has clear cut best options in many situations. If they nerf rang they could give some other parts of his kit some love and make him a cooler character overall

I say Meleefy the rang/bomb/arrow trajectory and all. Well except keep the knockback trajectory for his arrows and the land cancel-able quick arrows and just make his arrow charge speed like 2-3 times faster then his melee selfs. Also maybe only slightly give a trajectory distance increases to the (Meleefied)bombs/arrows but minor increases. Probably an increase of a distance equivalent or just ever so much above the distance of his swords length increase. Return the importance of using the rang/bombs to limit your opponents options and to force them to act in certain ways. That adds to the thinking and decision making aspect more than his current projectile set-up. I mean look at Aniki's Link's projectile game although that was in the youth of Melee. Also I mean for real there were more trajectory options and distances/areas to be covered with his Melee rang without it being broken. Though maybe increase the speed of it slightly since even in Melee due to the current Metagame he can barely keep up with the metagames speed.

Look at PM. They beefed up his combo potential for more intricate close range combat and buffed his swords size. They gave him speed increases in several moves. Less lag on moves and his jump squat etc.
They also reduced his lag after missing a grab and that is great. I just wish they could find a way to bring his Melee grabs length even if that means making it slightly slower but still faster than Melees. Also I wish they brought back his Melee styled tether recovery even if it is at cost of slightly nerfing his up-b to or closer to his Melee incarnation. But anyway PM gave him pretty sufficient buffs, that alone blow Melee Link out of the water. Bombs were more for comboing then the rang was in Melee. The rang in Melee was about a safeguard/an option hinderer/ or a stand back for a moment move. I like the idea of keeping him more similar to his Melee selves playstyle. I am not digging the removal of a playstyle he had in Melee primarily designed to let him combo his projectiles into his even more deadly combo game.Its makes it less though orientated.

 

[RomeDogg]

Also i just think the PM team should keep the top 8 the same. Then thrive to make the rest of the cast between Marth and falcon tiers and if they fall ever so slightly below Falcon that is still fine. As long as the entire cast can at least compete, thats good enough for me. The cast doesn't have to be "as good as Falco and fox" and the cast shouldn't be at there level. To me if everyone lands in the area of between falco and Captain Falcon at worst, that is the best outcome without changing the top 8.

Like for real Fox and Falco get stomped the hardest by combos then any other characters. They have crap recoveries and in order to even be "Top Teir" with those characters you can hardly make any mistakes at all and have to learn the most technical characters in smash. So if they were nerfed enough to only be even with the rest of the cast who the hell is going to play them over easier characters to learn like Marth or Bowser?..... or any other character for that matter. If at the spacies absolute best all the characters are even. Who will even invest time into the spacies? To even have an imperfect spacie(The closest you can even hope to get) it takes years upon years. Then with most every other character a solid few years of consistent play you will already push that character to the limit.

To sum it up they shouldn't balance around the spacie because they are the essence of what smash is. High risk(Playing the poor recovery weilding combo food we call the Spacies) high reward(actually learning the technicality of them and not getting hit/NOT fuggin up). So please don't punish those who put there time in.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So please don't punish those who put there time in.

"Sheik and Jiggs players can totally suck it, though."

I would put something longer here but I'm honestly where Strong Bad is on this thread. Have fun y'all.

 

[DMG]

Falco throw blah blah

I think the main thing that is off for Falco's throws are how lasers work. It seems easier to ASDI or SDI out? Wrong laser timings or weird laser shot spreads, etc. He would (and can still be) similar to Melee Uthrow/Bthrow if those were different. I don't believe it's intentional but ya

 

[Fortress]

let's all talk about another terrible anime instead

But I just woke up and don't want to talk about
>Kill la Kill
>Soul Eater
>Bleach
>Naruto
>Smash Bros
>Sword Art Online

 

[Alex Night]

So please don't punish those who put there time in.

Okay that's an interesting argument... How about the Squirtle players who devote so much time and effort to make him somewhat decent? How about the Bowser players who are struggling to try and have him be something of a threat than being just a Noob slayer? Honestly, Bowser feels much harder to win with than Spacies because of their amazing gifts and Bowser gets wrecked by combos way worse than Spacies. The difference is that the Spacies have ways to mitigate their combo string which is their fast fall > Tech > Frame 1 Shine in order to get breathing room. Pikachu has it much harder than Fox because it takes years of practice to even be able to compete in Melee/Project M. Pikachu has to space out his movements and his tiny limbs don't help him that much, but I digress.

Ivysaur players got punished for the time that they put in with the release of 3.0 and had to come up with a different gameplan to be a threat today. Same thing with Sonic players back in 2.6 and 3.0. If I as a Charizard player get punished for the time I put in to make my character being a credible threat in the next update, then there's no reason any other character should go unscathed should they merit those changes, especially the Melee Top 8. Project M isn't just a game for Melee players; it's a game for every Smash Bros. player.

This is just an opinion about equal treatment and I'm not suggesting we do change the Melee Top 8. Just saying that argument doesn't hold much grounds when players of other characters that aren't Melee Top 8 have devoted time and effort to develop their character's meta in this game and possibly have to deal with the new changes with every patch.

 

[Comeback Kid]

What the subreddit has no interest arguing about, since the PMDT already stated their position, the Smashboards certainly will for probably 1,000 posts.

Good job original poster.

 

[DMG]

Basically what I do to this thread on a daily basis

 

[Rhubarbo]

1. PMBR doesn't develop around a Fox-Falco power curve. If I had to venture (and assuming they are targeting a specific "power level" to begin with), I suspect it's much closer to Doc/Samus/Ganon's level, all the way up to NTSC Marth level.

I don't know about that. If you asses the number of changes made to Melee characters in the transition to Project M, spacies have received the fewest. Moreover, the negligible nerfs the spacies have received were doled to previously egregious strengths or barely felt in practice. Intangibility on their shines, arguably the most versatile tool in the game, and constantly damaging lasers, arguably the best projectiles in the game, were almost no-brainers. The loss of waveshine infinites is hardly a practical nerf since there are no competitive stages with walls. (I'd argue that spacies' shines and lasers need even more work, but any change I suggest will get slammed for having a negative effect on the spacie's dominance, which purists seem to forget is actually a key point of discussion here.) Also, the PMBR have gone on record saying that their goal has been to direct Project M's balance toward Melee's top tier levels. Whether or not this has been the case is arguable, but they've explicitly said that balance has been slanted upward toward Fox instead of mentioning an inward direction toward Mario or Samus.

Issues tend to stem from a lack of restraint: smaller tools or changes that aren't realized on the grand scale adding up to a formidable character. If you assume old Ike/Lucario/Sonic were the result of a top-down approach to specifically craft them to slay Fox, you're beyond wrong.

Even though a small set specific tools were crafted to stymie the spacies, I agree that isn't the main problem; I wouldn't say the PMBR have crafted any hard counters. However, their apparent lack of restraint can be based on many reasons, and strictly building around a few versatile characters can be one of them. Since the spacies own the neutral game and soar in the air, really powerful projectiles and really powerful aerials naturally have to be given to characters like Link and Lucas respectively so they can keep up. This approach would fall in line with the PMBR's promise of slanting balance toward Melee's top tiers.
---

I believe it's totally possible for Project M to have a well balanced cast of characters all on par with Melee's spacies. However, the problem with this end-goal is that it would likely breed unwanted homogeniety. Since the spacies have tools that are conceivably the best at what they do (within the realm of reason, i.e. not Brawl Minus), buffing everyone to their level would theoretically mean we'd get a lot of same-y movesets. In some ways, this could be a good thing since matches would play out on very even footing. On the other hand, we'd lose a lot of the flair we love. Character diversity would help achieve the intriguing degree of counter-play alluded to in the Trimming the Fat blog post.

---

I think the first question asked by this thread has been met with a resounding yes from purists and "whiners" alike, granted with varying degrees of a willingness to change. Going forward, I suggest we look at instances in which a character has a universally best option. If said option is too polarizing, we should try to suggest ideal changes that make the questionable move/property/whatever multidimensional and more balanced.

Also, consider gimmicks. I'm not talking about gimmicks like chain grabs, but gimmicks like a super-effective hurt-box on some of Mewtwo's tail moves, or something like Marth's tipper. Since Smash Bros. is relatively simple at its core, adding contrived layers of complexity to a character isn't necessarily a bad idea.

 

[Rhubarbo]

What the subreddit has no interest arguing about, since the PMDT already stated their position, the Smashboards certainly will for probably 1,000 posts.

Good job original poster.

The PMDT have stated two conflicting goals: Preserving Melee's top tiers and "trimming the fat." That's why this thread deserves to exist.

I moved the discussion here since disapproval can't be condensed into a down vote. People have to actually substantiate why Melee's top tier's should stay the same (or change, for that matter), they can't just dump on a reasonable suggestion by thoughtlessly clicking a button.

EDIT: The most derailed this thread gets is when people come in and provocatively post rubbish about how useless it is.

 

[Comeback Kid]

What part of "Our overview of the cast is a global one, and characters will receive due consideration regardless of current perceptions of their viability." don't you understand?

 

[Rhubarbo]

What part of "Our overview of the cast is a global one, and characters will receive due consideration regardless of current perceptions of their viability." don't you understand?

A myriad of downvotes were hurled at me because I suggested Melee's top tiers shouldn't be immune to nerfs in the same thread as said blog post. Clearly, not everyone's on board with universal changes. Also, if you look at the history of Project M's development, Melee's top tiers haven't really received any nerfs. Preaching and practice are very different things.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I can see the downvotes really, really bother you since you keep bringing it up as the main reason why this thread exists.

Most importantly, you have repeatedly ignored people telling you all the nerfs that have happened, dismissing them as unimportant to you, which makes the "Untouchable" title already a total lie, just to try and make your argument stronger. You have done that the whole thread after being corrected.

Sorry for stepping on your moment in the spotlight preaching, please carry on good sir.

 

[Alex Night]

I can see the downvotes really, really bother you since you keep bringing it up as the main reason why this thread exists.

Most importantly, you have repeatedly ignored people telling you all the nerfs that have happened, dismissing them as unimportant to you, which makes the "Untouchable" title already a total lie, just to try and make your argument stronger. You have done that the whole thread after being corrected.

Sorry for stepping on your moment in the spotlight preaching, please carry on good sir.

How exactly is removal of invincibility on Frame 1 Shine ever considered important?...

 

[Rhubarbo]

I can see the downvotes really, really bother you since you keep bringing it up as the main reason why this thread exists.

Most importantly, you have repeatedly ignored people telling you all the nerfs that have happened, dismissing them as unimportant to you, which makes the "Untouchable" title already a total lie, just to try and make your argument stronger. You have done that the whole thread after being corrected.

Sorry for stepping on your moment in the spotlight preaching, please carry on good sir.

Unsubstantiated down votes bother me because they're a quick and easy way to dismiss a relevant topic. If you immediately dislike an opinion on Reddit, you can click down vote, but you don't really have to justify your reasoning. However, if you necessarily engage in dialogue, common ground can be achieved.

Down votes aren't the main reason this thread exists, that would be the arbitrary preservation of Melee's top tiers.

If you read the OP, you'd see that I said Melee's top tiers have been "largely" preserved. I couldn't fit that caveat into the title so instead I chose something more snappy. Also, the nerfs Fox and Falco received have been negligible. They haven't affected their dominance, and they haven't really affected the way in which Fox and Falco are played. I break this down in my response to DMG.

I wish people in this thread would take less offense to one another's tone and focus more on the issue at hand.

 

[nimigoha]

How exactly is removal of invincibility on Frame 1 Shine ever considered important?...

No dood you don't understand now my frame 1 instant gimp actualy has a risk now RIOT

 

[Rᴏb]

How exactly is removal of invincibility on Frame 1 Shine ever considered important?...

holy ****

actually I'll quit being a ****.
The removal of frame 1 invincibility is significant because it essentially makes clanking and trading against shines possible. It makes shine punishes a little less likely to happen which makes the Fox & Falco matchups less horrible for some characters.

 

[Deleted member]

so i came back to this thread after like 6 hours

and there's like 90 new posts

lol lordling

not changing my answer

 

[Blank Mauser]

Basically the worst that can happen to space animals is that they move down to "still extremely relevant characters." But rather than redesigns they'll most likely only get subtle nerfs to allow 10 years of muscle memory to carry over faithfully.

PM is going to be popular either way. I think it'd just be fun to see someone use a new flavor of Fox personally. Someone who adapted to change and showed people something they want to see that they didn't know they wanted to see before.

The changes I posted earlier feel like they'd fit naturally with PM's design goals. Though from the dev members I've talked to I have complete faith 3.5 is going to be amazing. So I feel like further judgment on all these topics should wait until then.