Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[Shadic]

I caught up on line a day of posts, and issued like eight warnings/infractions.

Clean it up, folks. Please. For my sake.

 

[Deleted member]

shadic punching people right in the baby-maker

tl;dr spacies are stupid and people stopped buying "becuz melee" after the dark days of 2.5 sonic

 

[MechWarriorNY]

*snip*

Glad you knew to make the fact that you are joking about this hilariously obvious.
...Many people don't. Poe's law, folks, look it up.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Also i just think the PM team should keep the top 8 the same. Then thrive to make the rest of the cast between Marth and falcon tiers and if they fall ever so slightly below Falcon that is still fine. As long as the entire cast can at least compete, thats good enough for me. The cast doesn't have to be "as good as Falco and fox" and the cast shouldn't be at there level. To me if everyone lands in the area of between falco and Captain Falcon at worst, that is the best outcome without changing the top 8.

Like for real Fox and Falco get stomped the hardest by combos then any other characters. They have crap recoveries and in order to even be "Top Teir" with those characters you can hardly make any mistakes at all and have to learn the most technical characters in smash. So if they were nerfed enough to only be even with the rest of the cast who the hell is going to play them over easier characters to learn like Marth or Bowser?..... or any other character for that matter. If at the spacies absolute best all the characters are even. Who will even invest time into the spacies? To even have an imperfect spacie(The closest you can even hope to get) it takes years upon years. Then with most every other character a solid few years of consistent play you will already push that character to the limit.

To sum it up they shouldn't balance around the spacie because they are the essence of what smash is. High risk(Playing the poor recovery weilding combo food we call the Spacies) high reward(actually learning the technicality of them and not getting hit/NOT fuggin up). So please don't punish those who put there time in.

I'm going to dumb your argument down to what it really sounds like you're saying. "Make everyone better, but worse than spacies because if more characters are at their level, who's going to play spacies? People should naturally be the best because they put the work in with these characters and it's a punishment for Bowser or Marth to be at that level. Spacies can be comboed to death, regardless of whether other characters also can, and as a result, they should be allowed relatively brain dead methods requiring fast button pushes of doling out punishment and kills because it's completely fair."

If that isn't what you're saying, feel free to say so. But from all that, that's what I gathered and it seems like a really stupid argument.

 

[PlateProp]

Marth2stronk

Sword priority ridiculous

Like seriously, I can armor through Falco's dair til like 50% but one hit from Marth's sword at 0% knocks out Squirtle's armor, what is this Garbage

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Complaining won't stop that from happening, but if you improved at the game instead of talking about your inadequacy, it might.

 

[PlateProp]

Complaining won't stop that from happening, but if you improved at the game instead of talking about your inadequacy, it might.

Mech take your angry angst back to the social thread. Dont act like you've never played a 70:30 matchup before and not ******* at somepoint

 

[~Dad~]

Marth2stronk

Sword priority ridiculous

Like seriously, I can armor through Falco's dair til like 50% but one hit from Marth's sword at 0% knocks out Squirtle's armor, what is this Garbage

Plate, this is wrong and you know it's wrong. Stop.

Quit trying to tank hits and start avoiding them all together.

 

[PlateProp]

Plate, this is wrong and you know it's wrong. Stop.

Quit trying to tank hits and start avoiding them all together.

Dad, it's not like I grab my opponents controller while i'm in withdraw and dair myself.

No one understands the bane of being a turtle in blue haired princessland

 

[MechWarriorNY]

...I didn't want to be correct about Poe's law being in full effect THAT quickly, I gotta say.

 

[Empyrean]

That's right, listen to your dad.

 

[Alex Night]

I'm going to dumb your argument down to what it really sounds like you're saying. "Make everyone better, but worse than spacies because if more characters are at their level, who's going to play spacies? People should naturally be the best because they put the work in with these characters and it's a punishment for Bowser or Marth to be at that level. Spacies can be comboed to death, regardless of whether other characters also can, and as a result, they should be allowed relatively brain dead methods requiring fast button pushes of doling out punishment and kills because it's completely fair."

If that isn't what you're saying, feel free to say so. But from all that, that's what I gathered and it seems like a really stupid argument.

I hope he's joking about that. Virtually no Fox player has any room to talk about being punished for the time that they put in for their character when we've had Ike, Lucario, Sonic, Bowser, and Ivysaur players adjusting to the changes with each update and they are doing just fine today even after all the time they devoted for them in previous updates. (Well, I guess the Bowser mains are sort of mourning over their fallen king in this update.)

 

[Narpas_sword]

. So please don't punish those who put there time in.

This is a very peculiar thought to me.

Surely those who have taken it upon themselves to learn a new character and cope with the changes are "putting there[sic] time in" more than someone who is relying on skills brought over from a previous game.

i spent a lot of time in the lab ironing out different things between PM samus and Melee (and i have to keep putting time in so i dont find myself falling into one games habits when i play the other)

I've spent a lot of time learning toon link, who wasn't in melee at all (i didn't play brawl).
And your'e saying to not punish those who essentially don't want to learn new things?

Sorry if I've straw-manned your post. If you'd like to elaborate to further my understanding of your point, my ears are open.
But please reply in a font colour that isn't near invisible on dark background =/

 

[JOE!]

Again, you shouldnt be talking about punishing the time folks have spent with their character when things like how Lucario mains from brawl had to accept Lucaryu in PM.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

This is a very peculiar thought to me.

Surely those who have taken it upon themselves to learn a new character and cope with the changes are "putting there[sic] time in" more than someone who is relying on skills brought over from a previous game.

i spent a lot of time in the lab ironing out different things between PM samus and Melee (and i have to keep putting time in so i dont find myself falling into one games habits when i play the other)

I've spent a lot of time learning toon link, who wasn't in melee at all (i didn't play brawl).
And your'e saying to not punish those who essentially don't want to learn new things?

Sorry if I've straw-manned your post. If you'd like to elaborate to further my understanding of your point, my ears are open.
But please reply in a font colour that isn't near invisible on dark background =/

On the more of font color, there is a setting to choose to disregard font colors all together in your settings somewhere.

 

[RomeDogg]

so i came back to this thread after like 6 hours

and there's like 90 new posts

lol lordling

not changing my answer

I said that because Lordling agreed with my on something and I found it funny but cool.

 

[RomeDogg]

I'm going to dumb your argument down to what it really sounds like you're saying. "Make everyone better, but worse than spacies because if more characters are at their level, who's going to play spacies? People should naturally be the best because they put the work in with these characters and it's a punishment for Bowser or Marth to be at that level. Spacies can be comboed to death, regardless of whether other characters also can, and as a result, they should be allowed relatively brain dead methods requiring fast button pushes of doling out punishment and kills because it's completely fair."

If that isn't what you're saying, feel free to say so. But from all that, that's what I gathered and it seems like a really stupid argument.

Thats not what I am saying. I am simply saying there should be somewhat of a reward for learning the most technical characters in Smash....... Even if it sounds stupid...

I basically view it this way when putting a lot of thought into it from both sides of the fence. If Fox/Falco are too overpowered then in order to prevent having a "broken game" then just blance between Melee Marth and PM's current Captain Falcon. The characters in this Melee group are not "broken". IF you are one of the "Fox/Falco haters" at this point pretend everyone is balanced in the way I stated and Fox/Falco aren't even in PM. At this point everyone is viable because everyone one knows Captain Falcon in Melee is viable so therefore everyone in between that would be. At this point don't go about trying to buff anyones main because someone who mains them complains that their character is not the best or because certain match-ups aren't in their favor. They can get a secondary. The reason I view it like this is because the general consensus is we want it to be a "better Melee". So instead of angering Melee fans and sending them right back to Melee take into consideration there love for these "top 6" characters and how they worked in Melee. So if you are with me on my explanation still, then currently all Melee fans and PM fans "should" be satisfied.

Now we are looking at combo potentials and "brokeness". Alright now with those said changes more characters may be combo machines compared to Melee which I view as a good thing. And here is a reason why. The Smash64 and Melee community split after Melees release much like what happened with melee to brawl upon Brawls release. Everyone should know why this happened pertaining to Melee vs Brawl if they were around for Melee anyway. Brawl watered down the combo game with several anti combo mechanical changes and that is the primary reason Melee fans went right back to Melee. Even my casual smasher friends were like "wtf I don't want to play Brawl lets play Melee something is off here and it feels like nothing works and we just are hitting each other back and forth" after sufficient time of playing Brawl. But back to the Smash64/Melee split. Melee gave more options on top of what Smash64 had to offer. At the other point, of all smash titles Smash 64 was the closest to "true fighters" but with the unique attributes of Smash titles. The withdrawal of Smash64 fans from Melee was greatly due to the reduce in hitstun and the importance of combos. Hitstun was very high in Smash 64. 0-deaths was a major thing in Smash64. Like Isai said "Don't get hit".

Its hard to bring together the entire smash community especially because there are 4 Smash titles currently, but PM has thus far given love to Smash 64, Melee and to Brawl to a certain extent. That is mostly because Melee fans started the project in the first place with Melee Falco which of course initially brought Melee fans in over diehard fans of other smash titles. Though back to the last paragraph on combo options. If PM has more combo-ability through buffing of the rest of the cast between Marth and Captain Falcon(Which will still be less combo-ability then Smash 64). it will appeal to those who love Smash 64 while maintaining the growing importance of on the fly decisions increased on each following smash title since Smash 64. As a whole I feel PM can reconnect the first 3 generations of Smash(Smash64, Melee, Brawl) though people will go back to or stay in the scene of the particular Smash title they like if PM doesn't pan things out "close enough" to the reason/reasons they love their preferred smash title. So in conclusion of everything previously stated. More combo-ability can help ignite that flame between Smash64 and Melee through PM. While also getting attention from those who like traditional fighters. Even with it more closely related to Smash64 which imo is the best Smash title thus far "only lacking in less content" it still won't be near as combo orientated as Smash64/Brawl-.

So as far as the love goes, primarily fans of PM are Brawl/PM/Melee fans but still some from Smash64 because of how combo heavy or "Broken" it is at this current point. So its important to appeal to them all. changing Melee Top Teirs and Fox/Falco is asking for a separation of the PM community whether they go back to older titles of Smash or Smash 4. Since the Top 8 are so controversial we really need to look at it as the argument it truly is. its like arguing Democrat or Republican, Pro-choice or pro-life, protestant or catholic, Cheeseburgers or pizza, etc. It is ALL about preference. So now lets put Fox/Falco back into the picture, as I said everyone can compete before their(Fox/Falcos) re-entrance. Now we have to look at middle ground, even middle ground will drive Melee fans away most certainly but some will still accept it and/or embrace it. Here is my thoughts on the middle ground. Fox/Falco nerfs. Keep in mind in Melee a Captain Falcon player of equal skill can still get best 2-3 or 3-5 against a Melee Fox so even minor it may offset it just enough yet keep everyone happy from the first 3 generations but primarily the last two generations of smash.

NERFS-----------

Fox
1.Weight- PAL 75, NTSC 73
So make it 74 in between the two versions and he will KO easier.
2.DashAttack(Late Hit Angle)=PAL55, NTSC72 (HitboxFrames)=PAL9, NTSC=10
So make its Late Hit Angle=63, HitboxFrames=9
3.UpSmash(Clean hit)=PAL17%, NTSC18% (BaseKnockback)=PAL26, NTSC30 (Knockback Scaling)=PAL108, NTSC112
So Make it Clean Hit=17%, BaseKnockback=28, KnockbackScaling=110 Then his Up-Smash will be less effective.
4.D-Smash(Sweetspot Hit)=PAL13%, NTSC15% (Angle Of)=PAl25, NTSC30
So make it Sweetspot Hit=14%, Angle Of=27. Then his D-smash kill potential is less effective.
5.FireFox(StrongHitbox)=PAL12%, NTSC14%
So make the StrongHitbox=13% then additionally make is up-b/side-B distant exactly in between his and Falcos or between the PAL Fox and NTSC Fox distances(If and only if his recovery is such a problem)
6.Keep the PM Reflector/Lazer nerf but do not expand on it.

Falco
1. Give him his PAL dair but divide the duration of the late hits Sakurai angle in half.
2. Keep the PM Reflector/Lazer nerf but do not expand on it.

They are still "Technically Melee fox/falco"(excluding laser/shine). So they wont "completely" upset the Melee players. Then it also gives something to the strictly "PM Fans". Middle grounds. Because anything else is strictly a losing battle for one or the other side of this debate and PM fans will leave it has happened before with pros. Also keep in mind at this point of my view of changes it is still a far "better Melee". Even with those moderate spacie changes. This will "sufficiently" close the teir level gap still at the same time. Everyone will be "viable" if this was the direction it went.

On a final note how can it be a better Melee without the dynamic characters(The Top 8) in Melee remaining intact(excluding the proposed falco/fox changes). So I am just saying that would be a step in the right direction to please all. Try it out then we can all re-debate if it was sufficient enough or not. But nerfs even if minor to Fox/Falco plus the idea of everyone at Marth-Falcon levels will make it a lot more balanced and for the most part please the masses.

PS and no one wants it to be Smash 4 except for the 4th generation of smashers but PM will have little to no effect on them unless they experieneced what the first 3 games had to offer. So I am just saying PMBR please don't draw inspiration from Sm4sh, you are not competing with Nintendo.

 

[RomeDogg]

I deleted this post.

 

[PlateProp]

That's right, listen to your dad.

Pfff, Dad is a lazy drunk who got left by Mom, why would I listen to him?

Thread should prolly be locked since it's starting to go in circles though.

I summon thee...

@ Shadic

 

[Alex Night]

Rabble rabble rabble.

Sir? You need to turn down right now, especially when you don't understand what's going on. This thread is about talking about whether or not Melee's Top characters should remain "untouchable" (which many have said is a stupid notion multiple times and Lordling has mentioned that's what this thread is about for times that I lost count) during this crucial transition into 3.5 which is going to make or break this game that we know as Project M. This isn't about whether "such and such" is wrong about his beliefs on why we play Smash or anything like that. Leekslap got that warning on his post because he made a post that doesn't contribute at all to the topic at hand. Same thing with DMG and it doesn't matter how much he contributes to these forums as a Back Roomer. If you're contributing to the topic at hand, then it's no wonder you're getting a warning.

I suggest you also need to stop double and triple posting as it just clogs up this thread.

 

[GP&B]

conspiracy

What the hell.

I also second getting a lock. We've reached the point of absurdity that is beyond the scope of this thread. If this is seriously where the discussion is going next, then this thread needs to stop now.

 

[Alex Night]

What the hell.

I also second getting a lock. We've reached the point of absurdity that is beyond the scope of this thread. If this is seriously where the discussion is going next, then this thread needs to stop now.

I do think that if we do have to have this thread locked, then the arguments that have been discussed here in this thread should show up on the OP for easy viewing. You know, like arguments supporting on preserving the Melee Top characters and those that oppose the idea. Just a thought.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I agree with everyone that this thread's run its course, and I hope everyone agrees that Melee's top tiers shouldn't be immune to further changes.

@ Shadic Do your thing.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

It is a personal goal of mine to post in any thread that's about to be locked right before it happens.

 

[kaizo13]

see you guys in 3.5! :D

 

[Rhubarbo]

I do think that if we do have to have this thread locked, then the arguments that have been discussed here in this thread should show up on the OP for easy viewing. You know, like arguments supporting on preserving the Melee Top characters and those that oppose the idea. Just a thought.

Can you edit posts after a thread is locked? I'll put the best arguments in the OP, but I don't want to rush myself through around 15 pages of solid posting.

 

[Alex Night]

Can you edit posts after a thread is locked? I'll put the best arguments in the OP, but I don't want to rush myself through around 15 pages of solid posting.

I actually do not know if you can as I have never made a thread or at least I don't remember if I did. xD You may have to request Shadic about letting it open for a bit until you get the best arguments in the OP at worst case scenario.

 

[Bleck]

yeah let's lock this thread so somebody can make another one in a week

look how smart and mature we're being

 

[Alex Night]

yeah let's lock this thread so somebody can make another one in a week

look how smart and mature we're being

Well, topics like these are bound to attract the uninformed or those who don't wish to contribute to this topic at all... I mean, what else can we do?

I know my vote goes to having the Melee Top characters not be preserved if they deem to be seen as gimmicky or overcentralizing to their current playstyle.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Sounds exactly what Project M's problem has been from the very beginning. They wanted to make a game that was Melee's successor and then they ended up trying to make a game that was EXACTLY like Melee.

 

[Rhubarbo]

yeah let's lock this thread so somebody can make another one in a week

look how smart and mature we're being

Maybe we should aim for a more focused discussion. How about a series of threads on problematic characters or aspects of a character? For example, do you guys think it would be a good idea to have a thread just for something like Fox's shine/lasers, or a thread discussing Mewtwo in the current meta game?

Preemptively, I'd argue that these types of threads should belong on the general page because they affect the whole meta game instead of just one character, even if only one character is directly in question.

 

[Alex Night]

Maybe we should aim for a more focused discussion. How about a series of threads on problematic characters or aspects of a character? For example, do you guys think it would be a good idea to have a thread just for something like Fox's shine/lasers, or a thread discussing Mewtwo in the current meta game?

Preemptively, I'd argue that these types of threads should belong on the general page because they affect the whole meta game instead of just one character, even if only one character is directly in question.

Well, that really all depends. I mean, this thread nails it on the head that something went wrong to have Mewtwo become god-like now or how Sonic was nearly unstoppable in 2.5. Although perhaps talking about the problems of the metagame as it stands right now in 3.02 would lead us to the source of the problem that may or may not be the Melee Top characters.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Ehh, it'd likely still lead to the same end result, whether here or in the character forums. I say this partly because such discussions can and do devolve into similar nonsense (albeit with less yolo420dopeswag) even in the character forums. Last time Ivysaur got some quality time in the tier thread things went in a similar direction. On the other hand, the last bit of Mewtwo chatter went okay for a change so it's not completely hopeless.

I'm genuinely unsure if we stand to gain enough from such an initiative so late in this update's lifecycle to make it worthwhile given the quantity of garbage it will inevitably attract. 3.5 is probably less than two months away and might even be mere weeks away now. I would imagine that the PMDT has already set their course for most characters and are focused on testing and minor refinements at this point barring sudden shifts in the meta. If spacies (or anyone else) is getting changed, they've probably had this same discussion internally at least once by now.

 

[DMG]

I can't wait for tasty 3.5 patch notes!

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I think the real problem is, Project M was created because Nintendo and Sakurai were not responding to the community with a game that satisfied them, so the community made its own game. So the core reason why Project M exists, is to respond completely to the Smash community's needs. And that is both a good and bad thing, and I think it is good in ways that are small and bad in ways that are big. It is good in small ways - like costumes, little fanservice that Nintendo would never put in the game, etc. But when all your development is, is a response to what the community wants, it is lead by past trends of thought. This is why Fox and Falco are so good in the game - in the past, it was reliable and good, and this is what the community knows, so this is what we see. There's no singular person to guide development, and instead it is guided by the mob - and when there's several different ideas coming from several different people, what ends up winning out is the sizable group that just wants to emulate the past. Because that's the safest option assured to piss off the fewest people, and that is after all what they exist to do - a pure effort to please the community.

Nintendo and Sakurai do not have that problem because they have no obligation to respond to what the community wants if they choose not to. They can CREATE the demand that way rather than being lead by it and they are free to create an entirely different experience. Like Project M would NEVER be able to do things like add Wii Fit Trainer. Because that's just not in the cards, no one in the community was asking for that before Sakurai announced it was happening. But ultimately decisions like this, that shock and even go against the community sometimes, makes for a fresh game experience that gives the new game its own flavor that distinguishes it from the others in the series.

It's not an easy problem Project M finds itself in. Project M needs a voice, not an echo. And given that it was created by the community for the community, finding that voice might go against the very reason it exists in the first place.

 

[kaizo13]

hey @ InfiniteTripping
you want something new, fresh, original and made by Sakurai? check out Smash 4 for the Wii U & 3DS

This mod came into fruition with a certain audience in mind and set design goals from the start. What's wrong with us as a community taking it upon ourselves to craft our own rendition of our favorite game, taking the best elements from each smash game, making it fun, fast, competetive, and most importantly...balanced, something that Sakurai hasn't been able to pull off. So again, tell me how this is
bad?? especially when what you are asking for already exists.

you don't have to like Project M, but don't bash it because it's not your idea of what the project should be. The PMDT is a very knowledgeable and dedicated collective, you'd be a fool to think that they are blindly being led by "the mob"

Project M is not an echo, it's a brand new experience, and for many smashers out there, this is the ultimate smash game.....and it's not even finished yet

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I wasn't bashing it, nor did I say I didn't like it, but I was pointing out its limitations that it needs to overcome in order to go in a more satisfying direction. Maybe calling it an echo was a little too much... but I'm saying, sometimes being so responsive to the community is a double-edged sword as we're starting to figure out. Sometimes it is good to make big changes to things and then staying firm on those changes, rather than dithering and trying to work around something that isn't doing the game any favors in its pursuit to be its own unique experience (keeping Falco and Fox mostly the same and highest tier).

I'm not the biggest fan of the Sakurai method of shutting out most voices from the community and making a game with a singular focus either. Particularly when those voices would help him from making some terrible design choices out of ignorance. But I'll give him this, no game he ever made had the same feel as the prior game. There were always with a few exceptions new characters vying for the top spots.

 

[kaizo13]

...I was pointing out its limitations that it needs to overcome in order to go in a more satisfying direction.

..satisfying for who? it is impossible for the PMDT to satisfy everybody. Due to each smash game playing so diffirent from one another, Sakurai unintentionally and unfortunately divided the community. Everyone has the right to what they like, the best thing PMDT can do is stick to their own vision of their game and those who like it will play it. like me for example, 3.5 sounds to be heading in the direction i hoped for so i'm really looking forward to it.

....sometimes being so responsive to the community is a double-edged sword

the PMDT didn't start off as a group of elite developers. They've been working on this for over 4 years, learning from their mistakes as time went on. I think by now they have a pretty good idea of how much community feedback is healthy/unhealthy.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I'm not really saying it has to be satisfying for everyone, actually I am saying that you're going to have to start pissing off the group of people that want a Melee clone by asserting a more unique vision if you want to get to that higher level. Project M replaced Brawl which is nothing - it could replace Melee in a few years, but they need to stop caving to sacred cows. But the next step is addressing the top tier instead of working everything else around it. You say they should stick to their own vision, I'm sorry but this vision seems to be copied and pasted from a game that already exists. It seems like every change to Fox and Falco has been to make them exactly like their Melee form. It's time for Project M to grow beyond its very vocal fanbase that wants it to be exactly like Melee and attempt to make Melee's successor not clone, and offer a unique interpretation of these characters or the rest of the game suffers for it. There's no working around it anymore.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I'm not really saying it has to be satisfying for everyone, actually I am saying that you're going to have to start pissing off the group of people that want a Melee clone by asserting a more unique vision if you want to get to that higher level. Project M replaced Brawl which is nothing - it could replace Melee in a few years, but they need to stop caving to sacred cows. But the next step is addressing the top tier instead of working everything else around it. You say they should stick to their own vision, I'm sorry but this vision seems to be copied and pasted from a game that already exists. It seems like every change to Fox and Falco has been to make them exactly like their Melee form. It's time for Project M to grow beyond its very vocal fanbase that wants it to be exactly like Melee and attempt to make Melee's successor not clone, and offer a unique interpretation of these characters or the rest of the game suffers for it. There's no working around it anymore.

I feel like I should point out that there have been changes made that make them further away from their melee selves, though probably not further enough for many of us. They wanted the characters to intentionally play in a similar manner, not to make brand new characters and call them Fox/Falco.

This game is similar to Melee in many aspects, especially in that it's a fast paced environment, unlike Brawl. We should not forget that it isn't a 1:1 Melee copy though, as it's taken good aspects from Brawl, as well as Smash64 in order to create a competitive amalgamation of the games. I think the comparison to Sakurai's "I don't listen to anyone but myself" when you consider that Project M is a work that they do for the community with the community, is a lil unfair. We don't want them to go in that direction and only give us shallow teasers that don't give real information. What they're doing is perfect right now. They tell and show us things, but for the most part, they only listen to the things that make the most sense from a design perspective. Their job is not to take everything we say and apply it, just to listen to what we want in general and try to craft a game around it. I'd say they've done a pretty good job so far.