Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[nimigoha]

I think that there are so many buzzwords. Buzzwords everywhere.

It's rare to go into a discussion and not see words like gimmick and toxic. People seem to think they can pepper their argument with 'this move is toxic' or 'X character relies solely on gimmicks and no skill.' They're cop-out words that are used in place of actually defending a point.

Imagine if we had gotten Melee with Shines without a hitbox, without invincibility, and they started on like frame 5, and then a year later they released a patch (I know it's a Gamecube game, this is hypothetical) giving them the current Shines.

People would freak out. A frame 1 invincible combo starter/gimp machine that can be jumped out of that becomes absolutely central to the gameplay of a character. That is toxic. That is a gimmick. Fox and Falco were horribly designed.

That being said I don't want their Shines to change anymore. It is my personal belief that the function of the Melee top characters should be preserved in PM, as it completely has so far. Alterations shouldn't completely change how a character is played. (Sheik's Dthrow is a necessary kill because one move made half the cast unplayable, and besides, Melee Sheik's don't over-centralize it as much as they used to). Is this pandering to Melee vets? Maybe. But as a PM player I enjoy how Melee characters play and enjoy using Melee knowledge in PM (matchup knowledge not so much).

Nerf kill power. Nerf damage output. Nerf recovery.

If these nerfs are called for.

But at the end of the day, people will be less upset than if you'd stripped Falco of his pillars or Fox of his Nairshines.

 

[RomeDogg]

Others have used that as an argument but not you Fortress. Yeah and flashy isn't everything but its nice addition to have.

Lol Lordling.

Also no Plateprop that would be crazy to remove them and it had to be sarcastic I mean hell we already don't have Pichu and Young Link, who elses mains are we going to remove or not include based upon bias? Also how do people have trouble with beating out foxes recovery. It is factually easy AF to predict and punish. Even when mixed up. I mean hell if fox starts doing up-b to sweet spot during the start up of the move you can literally punish him for even trying to recover by using a projectile or simply leaping off and hitting him in the face like everytime and if you are too far out fire fox will hit you and you will recover but he won't. Sure it has distance but hello? You can pretty much throw out any move to interrupt it or trade with it to keep him off if you even have to go to that extent. His up-b isn't painful to get hit with either compared to almost everyone elses. Its just so easy the startup alone gives you a ridiculous amount of time to plan even an on stage edgeguard that should work unless you are new to the game or something? To me fox is one of the easiest characters to edgeguard. Also his side-b is laughable its like you always know when it is coming so you can hit him out of it 90% of the time.

Though if we really need to change fox just make him between both versions. So here is the proposed middle grounds.So whether you are for or against abortion this will only be a half abortion. See how it puts how touchy of a situation this is into perspective? So anyway this should please the people so obsessed about changing fox and it would be the least painful way to go about it for those of us who love fox how he is.

-Weight- PAL 75, NTSC 73
So make it 74 in between the two versions.
-DashAttack(Late Hit Angle)=PAL55, NTSC72 (HitboxFrames)=PAL9, NTSC=10
So make its Late Hit Angle=63, HitboxFrames=9
-UpSmash(Clean hit)=PAL17%, NTSC18% (BaseKnockback)=PAL26, NTSC30 (Knockback Scaling)=PAL108, NTSC112
So Make it Clean Hit=17%, BaseKnockback=28, KnockbackScaling=110
-D-Smash(Sweetspot Hit)=PAL13%, NTSC15% (Angle Of)=PAl25, NTSC30
So make it Sweetspot Hit=14%, Angle Of=27
-FireFox(StrongHitbox)=PAL12%, NTSC14%
So make the StrongHitbox=13% then additionally make is up-b/side-B distant exactly in between his and Falcos or between the PAL Fox and NTSC Fox distances(If his recovery is such a problem)
-Keep the Reflector/Lazer nerf

Then there you have it 5 subtle PAL inspired nerfs between both versions of Melee fox. Note for numbers that weren't divisible I leaned the odd number towards the PAL version. Also for the love of god though don't nerf the other top 7 in anyway they arent that good that they need it. I mean look what the nerf did to Falco in the PAL version, he can't afford a nerf.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Well, this derailed quickly.
Wasn't the OP's question just answered lol?
Lock when.

 

[DMG]

Damn I'm too late for this hella dope thread and these sick nasty arguments! That won't stop me though: call MJ, call Dr. J, hell call Charles Barkley cause I'm about to Slam Jam this motha ****a!


1. You are a straight up, punk-ass biatch if you wanna nerf top tiers. In fact, don't nerf anyone. PMBR stands for:

Project
Melee (Sheeeeeeit)
Buff
Room

I don't see a single N anywhere. There's no room for nerfs, this is America. You want nerfs and cold potatoes? Go to the USSR for that baloney, we're not a bunch of drinking circus-bear lovers! What kind of man gets bears drunk? That's a waste of booze


2. Fox and Falco are super mcnasty, hella sick dope smokin SUPA HOT FIRE, and you'll have no cajones left if you nerf them. God as my witness, a ****in albatross from Newark NJ will swoop down and force you to live your life as if NY/NJ TO's ruled every decision you made if you nerf them.


3. Why the hell does all the dope **** gotta break and go away so fast? Squirtle can't keep his killer ***** slayer 9000's on for a whole match? That's some super diluted weak ass stuff. In fact, his shades should be mandatory on all costumes and you'll have to press 12 taunts in 2 frames to take them off. Come the f*** on!




Yeah that's right, I said it

Spoiler

My post doesn't make any sense, just like the purpose of this thread. Surprised we managed to get this far LOL. Jesus have mercy on your souls, your poor pitiable souls

 

[Binary Clone]

And thus it was written, that DMG was the dopest mofo in all of swagland.

 

[Alex Night]

Others have used that as an argument but not you Fortress. Yeah and flashy isn't everything but its nice addition to have.

Lol Lordling.

Also no Plateprop that would be crazy to remove them and it had to be sarcastic I mean hell we already don't have Pichu and Young Link, who elses mains are we going to remove or not include based upon bias? Also how do people have trouble with beating out foxes recovery. It is factually easy AF to predict and punish. Even when mixed up. I mean hell if fox starts doing up-b to sweet spot during the start up of the move you can literally punish him for even trying to recover by using a projectile or simply leaping off and hitting him in the face like everytime and if you are too far out fire fox will hit you and you will recover but he won't. Sure it has distance but hello? You can pretty much throw out any move to interrupt it or trade with it to keep him off if you even have to go to that extent. His up-b isn't painful to get hit with either compared to almost everyone elses. Its just so easy the startup alone gives you a ridiculous amount of time to plan even an on stage edgeguard that should work unless you are new to the game or something? To me fox is one of the easiest characters to edgeguard. Also his side-b is laughable its like you always know when it is coming so you can hit him out of it 90% of the time.

Though if we really need to change fox just make him between both versions. So here is the proposed middle grounds.So whether you are for or against abortion this will only be a half abortion. See how it puts how touchy of a situation this is into perspective? So anyway this should please the people so obsessed about changing fox and it would be the least painful way to go about it for those of us who love fox how he is.

-Weight- PAL 75, NTSC 73
So make it 74 in between the two versions.
-DashAttack(Late Hit Angle)=PAL55, NTSC72 (HitboxFrames)=PAL9, NTSC=10
So make its Late Hit Angle=63, HitboxFrames=9
-UpSmash(Clean hit)=PAL17%, NTSC18% (BaseKnockback)=PAL26, NTSC30 (Knockback Scaling)=PAL108, NTSC112
So Make it Clean Hit=17%, BaseKnockback=28, KnockbackScaling=110
-D-Smash(Sweetspot Hit)=PAL13%, NTSC15% (Angle Of)=PAl25, NTSC30
So make it Sweetspot Hit=14%, Angle Of=27
-FireFox(StrongHitbox)=PAL12%, NTSC14%
So make the StrongHitbox=13% then additionally make is up-b/side-B distant exactly in between his and Falcos or between the PAL Fox and NTSC Fox distances(If his recovery is such a problem)
-Keep the Reflector/Lazer nerf

Then there you have it 5 subtle PAL inspired nerfs between both versions of Melee fox. Note for numbers that weren't divisible I leaned the odd number towards the PAL version. Also for the love of god though don't nerf the other top 7 in anyway they arent that good that they need it. I mean look what the nerf did to Falco in the PAL version, he can't afford a nerf.

Sir? SIR???... (I'm just gonna refrain from the picture btw)

First thing, could you please use a different font color? It's kind of hard to distinguish in a dark BG. Secondly, you're seriously underestimating how good Fox's recovery actually is. It's got good distance, multiple angles to go by for mix up except for when he's recovering from below, can shorten his Side B to throw you off, and his landing lag is next to none. Sure, it's easy to edgeguard in theory but it's different on execution against a good Fox player. The only time he is really easy to edgeguard is when he is forced to recover from below and that's it. That being said, yes it can be punished easily when predicted although it does beat out some aerials. Overall though, Fox's recovery options are quite good. He's got recovering way easier than characters like Ganondorf, Cpt. Falcon, Sheik, or even Snake where he has to sometimes hurt himself to make it back.

 

[Joe73191]

Saying "if you don't want nerfs to fox and falco then just go play melee" is like saying "if you want changes to fox and falco just go play brawl."

The reason people don't complain much when non-melee characters are changed is because they know that even with the changes the character is still better than it was in brawl. Even with the changes it is still the best iteration of the character. They are still playing the best version of the character among all other smash games. That is important. Where as if you nerf Melee top tiers, than if someone wants to play the best version of that character, they need to put in Melee instead.

Sonic may not be as good as in a previous PM version, but the current sonic is still better than any sonic in any other smash game. Where as if you nerf Marth, Shiek, Fox or Falco than the best version or iteration of the character is in another game and if someone wants to play those characters they might as well play that other game if they want to play the best that the character has to offer.

3.02 PM is brilliant and there is virtually nothing melee players should be complaining about. (I'm not a fan of gliding, even though I use Pit, but that is something else entirely) The fact that melee players complain about PM 3.02 is bad I admit it. They should not be complaining or knocking PM or insulting it. It is by far the best smash game. However part of that is that every character in it is better than every other smash games version of that character, I don't think that should change.

 

[TreK]

I can think of at least one bat shaped counterexample.

 

[Joe73191]

I can think of at least one bat shaped counterexample.

I'm curious how a Brawl Metaknight in a PM environment, with PM mechanics would fair against the PM top tiers and Melee top tiers in a PM environment with PM mechanics.

 

[PootisKonga]

While the shine example is a bit extreme/exaggerated, my point still stands that if taking away a single move can essentially destroy a character's potential overall then it is gimmicky.

Bold emphasis mine.

I think you or someone else may want to clarify that. I feel there is a difference between a gimmick and a necessary signature move like, say, Wario's Shoulder Bash. Would he suck without it? Most definitely. However, unlike Shine, it only serves to bolster his moveset rather than his playstyle being centralized around the whole move. He has plenty of options outside of Shoulder Bash, it just happens to be one of the better KO options he has. That's a good signature move: Great option for many situations while often far from the best, and it doesn't completely overtake his playstyle. Wario without SB still has decent options in PM. What I see as a true gimmick (such as Shine) is something that would almost literally ruin the entire character if they had it removed.

Disclaimer: I am a newer player so I may not entirely know if what I'm saying is right.

 

[JOE!]

No, you about summed it up

Wario would hurt without the side b, but he hardly "needs" it (aside from obvious recovery stuff) overall to function.

 

[Ace55]

I mean look what the nerf did to Falco in the PAL version, he can't afford a nerf.

Yes Falco is completely unviable in PAL...

Really none of the PAL changes have ruined the viability of any of the top tiers. Sheik has it worst because she lost her throw followups but interestingly before Armada Sheiks actually dominated the EU scene.

 

[Wazygoose]

This thread.

The original OP suggested that to make PM a better game, changing Melee top tiers should at least be considered, because changing every other character just to compete with them has historically made the game broken and causes massive complaints and general dissatisfaction. I.e, moving PM further away from Melee is at least worth consideration if it makes PM better.

So far I think outcries have been relegated to:
(1) Melee top tiers are not overpowered so why bother changing them
(2) I like PM because of how similar it is to Melee, so I disapprove of the OP's message

Due to the unmalleable, fundamental differences between the opposite demographics of PM players, I think consensus is as likely as a permanent peace treaty between Israel and Palestine. Not trying to make light of that situation, but I'm not exaggerating. Unless someone else has a solution?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

To interject into the present discussion:

Sometimes moves can't be salvaged through balancing. I think there are moves that posses inherent strength or weakness within the engine. Let's try to define moves by two qualities: behaviour and numerical properties. Behaviour would cover the animation and other novel aspects of a given move, whereas numerical properties would encompass damage, knock back, and other quantifiable values. Now, let's examine a move that's almost objectively bad; Jigglypuff's sing.

The problem with Puff's sing is that I reckon it can't be balanced through its numerical properties. It's key behaviour, completely immobilizing targets, is too polarizing. If it were effective, it would be a cheap move since it negates counter play - buffing sing's range or duration would make it too good and/or unsatisfying. However, in its current state, sing is useless. In cases like this, trying to preserve a move's fundamental behaviour is an up hill battle. Either sing's behaviour needs to be changed (e.g. converted into an off-stage slow, hint, hint), or it needs to be replaced entirely.

The same principle largely applies to strong moves, like Brawl Minus's version of sing.

I think sing should be an off-stage tool for Jigglypuff. Like @ Narpas_sword suggested, sing's hitbox should be around the size of rest's. Offstage, this would mean Jigglypuff has a safe gimping tool - If Puff catches someone low, she can land a lullaby, doze the foe to death, and balloon to safety.

I suppose a new character state would be necessary for this to work. Aerial sleep could be the helpless animation coupled with snoring FX. Unlike helplessness, aerial sleep would end after X amount of time, but could not be mashed out of; it would last a set amount of time.

I had an idea for Sing that might be much easier to implement, would arguably be less controversial, and still have effective use but without being overpowered.

What if Sing could affect shielded opponents? Like Mario's Cape?

Technically the shielding opponents aren't really holding their ears, so...it doesn't really make sense on how they can "block" Sing, considering what the move revolves around.

One huge problem that Sing has currently is that anyone can block it pretty much whenever they want to. So implementing this change would help alleviate this somewhat.

 

[JOE!]

The issue then is that sing guarentees rest, which in theory is janky as all hell

 

[PlateProp]

Let's just abolish Sing and give Jiggs Headbutt, she pops up a short distance very quickly with mediumish kb.

 

[nimigoha]

Sing is really just out of place. Take away Rest, buffing Sing is fine. Gets you some damage. Like Mewtwo's Disable.

I think they should take out Sing.

 

[shapular]

The reason people don't complain much when non-melee characters are changed is because they know that even with the changes the character is still better than it was in brawl. Even with the changes it is still the best iteration of the character. They are still playing the best version of the character among all other smash games. That is important. Where as if you nerf Melee top tiers, than if someone wants to play the best version of that character, they need to put in Melee instead.

MK, ICs, Olimar, Snake, Zero Suit Samus, and G&W are all better in Brawl.

Sonic may not be as good as in a previous PM version, but the current sonic is still better than any sonic in any other smash game. Where as if you nerf Marth, Shiek, Fox or Falco than the best version or iteration of the character is in another game and if someone wants to play those characters they might as well play that other game if they want to play the best that the character has to offer.

Smash 4 Sonic might be better. Bowser is also better in Smash 4, as well as ZSS, Lucario, Yoshi, and maybe even Sheik. But you're right about some things. Mewtwo, Lucas, Pit, and others are better than ever, and seeing how well received they are, PMDT should just buff everybody up to their levels.

If I really wanted to play the best versions of every character, I'd go play Brawl-. Most of the characters in that are probably better than their PM equivalents, although they're pretty close in brokenness level.

 

[Phan7om]

Sing just needs to be a little faster. Still slow enough that its not a broken oos option, and not just a cheese gimmick you can just throw out whenever, but fast enough that in certain situations which the opponent should try to avoid it is viable; such as edgegrab cancelling it when the opponent is too close to the edge, powershielding a laggy move too close to the shield, etc.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If I really wanted to play the best versions of every character, I'd go play Brawl-. Most of the characters in that are probably better than their PM equivalents, although they're pretty close in brokenness level.

You realize this is mathematically impossible, right?

It's like asserting "Most people are above median intelligence". A character's strength in a fighting game exists solely in relation to the other characters in the game.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I mean look what the nerf did to Falco in the PAL version, he can't afford a nerf.

Again.

As a PAL player, this is totally wrong.

 

[Phaiyte]

words

I didn't read the whole thing, but I stopped when something about winning with Zelda was mentioned. I think you're forgetting the fact that Zhime p much developed Zelda, though. He knows the character in and out because he designed the character for the most part.

 

[Phaiyte]

sorry for double post, but I think the game would be insanely awesome if EVERYONE was literally some iteration of Fox and Falco, like Wolf, in some way or another. Kinda like Lethal League where all the characters are pretty much the exact same except for wall interactions and the 1 single special they have.

 

[shapular]

You realize this is mathematically impossible, right?

It's like asserting "Most people are above median intelligence". A character's strength in a fighting game exists solely in relation to the other characters in the game.

Not really. If you made a Smash mod where Marth used a butter knife and all his attacks did 1%, had little knockback, and had three seconds of startup, he'd be straight up worse than any official Marth or PM Marth, even if all the other characters in the mod were the same way. If you put a BlazBlue character into Divekick, they'd destroy everybody because they have so much more mobility and range. There are certain standards of goodness you can set for balance. You can make everybody as good as Melee Fox, or you can make everybody as good as Brawl Ganondorf. I don't think the difference is unclear.

 

[nimigoha]

Not really. If you made a Smash mod where Marth used a butter knife and all his attacks did 1%, had little knockback, and had three seconds of startup, he'd be straight up worse than any official Marth or PM Marth, even if all the other characters in the mod were the same way. If you put a BlazBlue character into Divekick, they'd destroy everybody because they have so much more mobility and range. There are certain standards of goodness you can set for balance. You can make everybody as good as Melee Fox, or you can make everybody as good as Brawl Ganondorf. I don't think the difference is unclear.

And the discussion of this thread is pretty much your second-last sentence. Should we only balance up to Melee Spacie level like it's been done in the past, creating even more broken characters like M2 and Pit, or do we balance down to like Melee Falcon level, including nerfs to Spacies.

If someone thinks that Melee Spacies should be fully preserved, their only answer is to buff everyone else if they want any semblance of balance, but this creates imbalanced interactions between characters and matchups are more polarized.

Giving tools to handle Melee Spacies means tools that over-handle other characters. Eventually everybody has crazy tools and it's Brawl-.

I think that 3.02 Roy is a well balanced character with strengths and weaknesses, and he can win without abusing any one aspect (unless you're Sethlon and you shffl Uairs on mid-weights XD). In my opinion, he doesn't have any matchups that I immediately think are unwinnable, and he doesn't completely dominate many matchups either.

 

[C-SAF]

I don't remember saying that, but, okay. My point is that you can't come into a competitive discussion, say that the game should be tuned around "looking flashy and cool", and then say that anything less is boring and non-competitive for... whatever reason.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not the only person (not nearly) disagreeing with Our Most Swiggity Swaggity Dopemeister. If it makes you feel any better, I always get my feelgoods rubbed the wrong way when @DrinkingFood posts his two cents, but I agree with nearly all of what he says. The way I carry myself is nothing new.

I get the whole 'be encouraging' thing, and I've been on both ends of the spectrum, but I'm not beyond calling out scrubby behavior when it becomes toxic. If terms like 'scrub' bug you, then you might be in the wrong century.

I honestly wouldn't give two ****s if I got called a tourneyfag or what you will. Coming from Bum****, Montana, I've spent nearly all of the time in playing Smash with the same, small crew of players over the years, the very same thing you're describing. Coming from humbler roots is nothing new to me at all.

This also bothers me:



One other thing I'd like to point out: why in the world should coming into a discussion and opening with this be met with encouragement and acceptance?


If me ****ting on this kind of attitude is still confusing for you, and it's still coming off as childish, then I'm only going to end this with 'he started it'.

So, @ RomeDogg , can you please tell me again why I need to be more nurturing towards a player who comes in and opens with "lol you play for the wrong reasons"?

You play for the wrong reasons was in response to someone who claimed they played for money. Im sorry if you disagree but that is the wrong reason in my book.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

You play for the wrong reasons was in response to someone who claimed they played for money. Im sorry if you disagree but that is the wrong reason in my book.

That's not just wrong, it's dishonest.

In a competitive environment, people play to win.

Lol, you play for the wrong reasons. If this game wasn't about fun and doing combos nobody would play.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i wouldnt even call it dishonest...

dishonest would be playing for money then not paying up because of johns.

 

[Binary Clone]

Not really. If you made a Smash mod where Marth used a butter knife and all his attacks did 1%, had little knockback, and had three seconds of startup, he'd be straight up worse than any official Marth or PM Marth, even if all the other characters in the mod were the same way. If you put a BlazBlue character into Divekick, they'd destroy everybody because they have so much more mobility and range. There are certain standards of goodness you can set for balance. You can make everybody as good as Melee Fox, or you can make everybody as good as Brawl Ganondorf. I don't think the difference is unclear.

The real problem is that balancing every character to be as good as Melee Fox means that you end up with tons of jank. Fox is a gimmicky character, we just don't tend to see it that way because he's been that way for so long, and we're used to it, and it isn't a game that got patched, unless you count PAL.

Melee Fox has an invincible frame-1 safe on shield semi-spike combo starter. And beyond that, even, he has tons of really effective tools. Balancing up to that will inevitably lead to jank.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

i wouldnt even call it dishonest...

dishonest would be playing for money then not paying up because of johns.

If he's not intentionally being dishonest, I'll give him a break. Til he says something else, I hold him to it.

Your example is far more dickish though. How often does that happen?

 

[Narpas_sword]

If he's not intentionally being dishonest, I'll give him a break. Til he says something else, I hold him to it.

Your example is far more ****ish though. How often does that happen?

oh never, that was hypothetical.

unless you count PAL.
.

Why dont people count PAL?
seems weird.

It's like a whole country stuck using PM 2.6

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

oh never, that was hypothetical.

Suppose if they did,there would be a close enough contact for some post-smash smashing.

 

[Binary Clone]

Why dont people count PAL?
seems weird.

It's like a whole country stuck using PM 2.6

Probably NTSC discs are way more common, and there wasn't ever really a good reason to "upgrade" for the US, and since it had a much bigger scene than Europe, it stayed dominant.

But even then, the point stands. I may be wrong, but I don't think Fox's shine was changed much if at all for PAL.

 

[Alex Night]

And the discussion of this thread is pretty much your second-last sentence. Should we only balance up to Melee Spacie level like it's been done in the past, creating even more broken characters like M2 and Pit, or do we balance down to like Melee Falcon level, including nerfs to Spacies.

If someone thinks that Melee Spacies should be fully preserved, their only answer is to buff everyone else if they want any semblance of balance, but this creates imbalanced interactions between characters and matchups are more polarized.

Giving tools to handle Melee Spacies means tools that over-handle other characters. Eventually everybody has crazy tools and it's Brawl-.

I think that 3.02 Roy is a well balanced character with strengths and weaknesses, and he can win without abusing any one aspect (unless you're Sethlon and you shffl Uairs on mid-weights XD). In my opinion, he doesn't have any matchups that I immediately think are unwinnable, and he doesn't completely dominate many matchups either.

Strangely enough, I feel the same way with Charizard although he completely walls out Jiggs sooo... He does have MUs that he dominates, but it's Jiggs in Project M soooo...

 

[shapular]

The real problem is that balancing every character to be as good as Melee Fox means that you end up with tons of jank. Fox is a gimmicky character, we just don't tend to see it that way because he's been that way for so long, and we're used to it, and it isn't a game that got patched, unless you count PAL.

Melee Fox has an invincible frame-1 safe on shield semi-spike combo starter. And beyond that, even, he has tons of really effective tools. Balancing up to that will inevitably lead to jank.

Yeah, I agree with that. I've thought balancing to Melee Fox was a bad idea from the beginning, but I didn't think it'd ever get this out of hand. I was just trying to give some extreme examples to try to demonstrate my point that character goodness isn't entirely limited to the scope of its own game.

Edit: If you think about it enough, the 3.5 Design Blogpost #7 offers plenty of reasons why spacies might get nerfed. For example:
"At the moment, we believe our cast to possess tools that are a little too excessive in terms of flexibility" - If the shines aren't an example of this, what is?
"necessitating thoughtful, challenging and engaging interactions with each other." - Running in and doing an unpunishable drillshine is hardly thoughtful.
"Revising moves with static knockback curves and making them scale more with percentage." - I don't know if this applies to Fox's set knockback shine, but it should apply to Falco's.
"Balancing cooldowns with power/start-up/duration/utility." - Like Fox's super fast, super powerful, all-purpose up smash?

That's why I have hope that spacies are finally getting nerfed in 3.5.

 

[DMG]

Increasing Falco's Shine knockback would have negative consequences elsewhere: easier kills off the top for example

 

[Deleted member]

lol lordling

 

[C-SAF]

That's not just wrong, it's dishonest.

Srry fortress was the one who claimed he played for money, he was also the one who took the quote out of context in the first place. You play for the wrong reasons was in response to much more than "In a competitive environment, people play to win" though.

I do apologize for the misquote though, its not cool to do and was a mistake my part.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Srry fortress was the one who claimed he played for money, he was also the one who took the quote out of context in the first place. You play for the wrong reasons was in response to much more than "In a competitive environment, people play to win" though.

I do apologize for the misquote though, its not cool to do and was a mistake my part.

Okie dokie.

 

[PlateProp]

Let's make everyone on Falcon's level, that way we have balls to the wall combos and better balance than balancing to broken space animals

Everyone wins!