Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[Rhubarbo]

I don't have any interest in joining the discussion. I've argued all relevant points from every angle already over the last 2 years. I just came in to explain why a suggestion wasn't feasible.

Is your thesis-worthy rant still on the site, or did it go down with the original PM thread?

 

[Strong Badam]

Think it's in the "Why the Fox/Falco Hate?" thread that was locked a long time ago, came sometime after 2.6's release IIRC.

EDIT: Somewhere in here. Context of the thread: Literally only Sonic was arguably better than Fox in the version that was out at the time of the thread. It's now generally agreed upon that at least 5 characters are in 3.02, a combination of Fox/Falco receiving shine/laser nerfs and those characters receiving buffs/existing for the first time in 3.0.

EDIT2: JK it was in another thread that Vashimus linked in a later post sorry

 

[leekslap]

16 people viewing thread and no reply or something? Either someone will rant or I pissed off alot of people by

 

[GP&B]

Are you seriously that immature?

 

[Strong Badam]

I mean, you said Fox's UpB is just as gimpable as Falco's, among other things. Usually, factually incorrect statements aren't contributions to a winning argument.

 

[PlateProp]

I would rant about how Falco has an oafish moveset, but I would probably get uber bashed for it so yeah.

 

[leekslap]

Are you seriously that immature?

I'm only kidding.
EDIT: @ Strong Badam It was bad wording. I thought of gimping as edgeguarding. What other things did I mess up? I said its hard to "DI" because you can just waveshine and see what they do. SHL f tilt is a guarenteed combo Mango does a lot. I've been able to shine up air or bair or dair instantly so it either kills them or pillars them. Its kinda hard to do against floaties at not low percents but whatevs. Gatling combo is a new one that's pretty good at mid percents but stops working at high percents. There's probably way more but those guarenteed combos are just off the top of my head.

 

[Bleck]

so are we done using the word 'swag' yet

 

[Fortress]

so are we done using the word 'swag' yet

Not until our dope factors diminish.

 

[Binary Clone]

You want statistics, PC Chris, Mango, and especially PPMD have dominayed tournaments more with Falco. I have thought about this for SO MUCH time. I tried, I really tried to reason out Fox was better but I gave it to Falco. So don't come here all "God, this thread" because it isn't anything compared to what I'm feeling. At least say the nerfs you want to give to Fox instead of crying. Maybe it doesn't take time to figure out the meta but being good does.

I think your idea of "statistics" needs some work.

I'm also not really sure how you can perceive that post as "winning" since you didn't really refute much of anything. The guy you were responding to there was saying that Fox has bad design that compromises the balance of the game, if I'm understanding correctly. Your reply was basically "well Falco is better." Well, that can really just be interpreted to mean that, well, Falco also has bad design that compromises the balance of the game. What's your point?

 

[Leafeon]

so are we done using the word 'swag' yet

That's a word?

 

[leekslap]

I think your idea of "statistics" needs some work.

I'm also not really sure how you can perceive that post as "winning" since you didn't really refute much of anything. The guy you were responding to there was saying that Fox has bad design that compromises the balance of the game, if I'm understanding correctly. Your reply was basically "well Falco is better." Well, that can really just be interpreted to mean that, well, Falco also has bad design that compromises the balance of the game. What's your point?

Fox is overrated to death. Do I always need to point out my points?

 

[Binary Clone]

Fox is overrated to death. Do I always need to point out my points?

Your point is barely relevant. Who cares if he's overrated? That doesn't mean that he doesn't have a toolkit that's detrimental to the game.

 

[Leafeon]

Fox is overrated to death. Do I always need to point out my points?

I'd assume it's probably because you're trying to take up a side of an argument in a pretty largely viewed thread so far, and they are rebuttling.

 

[Ningildo]

Calm your **** dude! Even I wasn't that worked up about Saikyoshi's Dark Samus fallacies. This thread is for discussion, and that means not everyone thinks the same you do. I am THIS close to reporting you.

Fox does have an advantage of time. Lucas, Wolf, and Link are gods if played at the level of Fox and believe me they are just as hard to use if not more. The best Fox literally plays frame perfect and you gotta respect him. He's been playing for years and Neon has given us a mere glimpse of what Lucas can really do. Even in Melee, I and others think Fox is only second in command. Falco can literally keep you locked down with his lasers and practically unDIable combos. He has more range and he can capitalize off of things better than Fox. Off a shine against a good player, Fox will get some percent and a neutral stance while Falco will easily get a 50%+ combo EVEN if he misses a waveshine. Heck I've been able to rack up 20% even though I didn't even jump cancel shine! His techroll is longer, and believe it or not, Falco's recovery is harder to edgeguard because you can only cover one option at a time. Stay onstage he can side b onto the ledge. Go offstage and you risk getting spiked by it or whiffing if up b is angled well. DI as up as possible and you as a Falco will recover. Fox's side b is slower and more punishable and his up b is just as gimpable as Falco's. Fox has more options but Falco has the ones that work 100% of the time. The only reason people are ignorant ****tards is because Fox kills faster and "hees recovery iz butter". You want statistics, PC Chris, Mango, and especially PPMD have dominayed tournaments more with Falco. I have thought about this for SO MUCH time. I tried, I really tried to reason out Fox was better but I gave it to Falco. So don't come here all "God, this thread" because it isn't anything compared to what I'm feeling. At least say the nerfs you want to give to Fox instead of crying. Maybe it doesn't take time to figure out the meta but being good does.

reminder #1: childish threats are not a good sign of a mature debater.
reminder #2: yes, they were buffed to the point of keeping up with fox. Now remember where how strong they are in comparison to the rest of the cast. Now they need a nerf. It's like there's a pattern through the versions of pm with characters that go even or better with spacies.
reminder #3: stop sucking up to M2K because when you say others you mean him mainly as if him sharing your views makes them instantly better. Why do I think you're guilty of this? Well...
reminder #4: you literally used his reasoning for putting falco #1 in melee over fox from his personal tier list on CT (iirc), lol.
reminder #5: this isn't melee, so don't use melee reasoning.
reminder #6: you have yet to give a argument for not nerfing/adjusting beyond "lol, get gud, scrubs" . Even if you did, I'm 99.9% sure it's covered by Lordling's post. You also might want to avoid insulting people when you want them to stop insulting you(r side).

Christ, it's like you're a twelve year old.

 

[Phaiyte]

bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope bae swag dope

 

[Vashimus]

Is your thesis-worthy rant still on the site, or did it go down with the original PM thread?

Strong Bad made this famous godlike post a year ago, when Fox and Falco had their shine invincibility taken away.

 

[Binary Clone]

Strong Bad made this famous godlike post a year ago, when Fox and Falco had their shine invincibility taken away.

Well, thread's over. Everybody go home.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

From what I can gather leekslap responded to my post.

@ leekslap : As I said before, you're on my ignore list and I don't consider anything you say worth consideration. So don't bother responding to me.

 

[nimigoha]

Strong Bad's post is as relevant today as it was a year ago.

 

[Alex Night]

Strong Bad made this famous godlike post a year ago, when Fox and Falco had their shine invincibility taken away.

WELP!...

I guess that answers the OP's question in big, bold letters.

 

[leekslap]

reminder #1: childish threats are not a good sign of a mature debater.
reminder #2: yes, they were buffed to the point of keeping up with fox. Now remember where how strong they are in comparison to the rest of the cast. Now they need a nerf. It's like there's a pattern through the versions of pm with characters that go even or better with spacies.
reminder #3: stop sucking up to M2K because when you say others you mean him mainly as if him sharing your views makes them instantly better. Why do I think you're guilty of this? Well...
reminder #4: you literally used his reasoning for putting falco #1 in melee over fox from his personal tier list on CT (iirc), lol.
reminder #5: this isn't melee, so don't use melee reasoning.
reminder #6: you have yet to give a argument for not nerfing/adjusting beyond "lol, get gud, scrubs" . Even if you did, I'm 99.9% sure it's covered by Lordling's post. You also might want to avoid insulting people when you want them to stop insulting you(r side).

Christ, it's like you're a twelve year old.

1. How was that threat childish?

2. Top tiers are top tiers.

3. I'm not sucking up to him, I just have a lot of respect and I agree with him on Fox. And you call me childish.

4. What? Really? M2K thinks the same? I swear even if I look like I'm lying, I'm not.

5. But Melee is very similar to Project M and so is Falco.

6. As a matter of fact, I did suggest a buff for up smash.

lol

From what I can gather leekslap responded to my post.

@ leekslap : As I said before, you're on my ignore list and I don't consider anything you say worth consideration. So don't bother responding to me.

Well, that didn't hurt my feelings at all. I think I remember I was kidding and made you mad. Then again, it did make my post THAT much more true. As in you can't accept differring opinions or take a joke. I'd say sorry, but you are probably gonna ignore this post anyway.

 

[Leafeon]

I fail to understand why you even replied at the end of your post, when it's clearly obvious that they cannot even see it.
Why is it that people are so fixated on having this so-called tierlist? I can't wait until people realize that the purpose is to have everyone in the same tier, even playing field as far as viability goes. If the game needs the change for the sake of balance, then I say change it. Screw the guys that throw a fit and say they'll quit because of it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Strong Bad's post is as relevant today as it was a year ago.

I try!

The question on all of our minds, though, is... was my post dope?

 

[Alex Night]

Then again, it did make my post THAT much more true. As in you can't accept differring opinions or take a joke. I'd say sorry, but you are probably gonna ignore this post anyway.

How exactly does that make your opinion true? You're just agreeing to something that M2K said who I wouldn't take his opinions about Project M seriously. He changes his opinions about whose the best characters in Project M more often than square dancers change partners. Your posts are as relevant as Enron.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Mew2King is legitimately my favorite player in the world, maybe tied with Armada. His Sheik and Marth inspire my play, and his game on-point is just poetry in motion.

That said, Ness went from low tier on his personal tier list to just below Link, Fox and Sonic after he played Awestin.

He bases a lot on what he's experienced, his personal 'feel' of the game and yes, his own biases. He has them. Everyone has them. His word should be respected to an extent; it is not gospel.

 

[RomeDogg]

Fortress your silly and present yourself like a pompous idiot with stupendous bigotry. Your tunnel vision is ridiculous and you act downright rude and asinine. Some of the better/best players(PM wise at least) in their areas of the country resulted from not attending tournaments, not winning money through smash, not bullying people, not using elementary terms like scrub/noob and other pathetic terminology to boost an obviously dwindling sense of well-being/confidence. They did it by playing PM at home. I am talking about players who would undoubtedly wash you up and some of those players still haven't played in tournies but still would trash people who have a one dimensional mind state like the one you present "Oh I go to tourneys regularly its the only way to get better". You have to practice at home too like wtf dude? And everyone starts somewhere and they can do whatever they chose if they don't want to go to tourneys they don't have to.

Anyways PM retained online capabilities from brawl. A lot of people can't afford to go to tourneys or don't even have a smash scene in there state let alone in surrounding states especially towards a mod of a game with a limited following. So these players play online and proved that the idea "you can't get better by playing online" was wrong. Because they did happen to finally attend tourneys without having done it before and defeated several smash veteran pros or took sets from the top 8s.

Like for example, Zhime he came out stomping in tourneys and nobody knew where he came from, he just played smash at home a lot and happened to play a lot of good players online. He is known as the best PM Zelda main. Then there are other recognizable names like Frozen and etc, etc. There are even players that still only play online and haven't went to any tourneys that are better than these ones listed.

Also many pros play in training mode at home by themselves for long periods of time. Or players just happen to play Smash with a crew of players without attending tourneys and get good because their group(s) have played smash together for years and kept up with the technical aspect of the game and were able to learn the matchups.

I'm just saying its like your trapped in a fantasy world of preconceived conceptions and notions. You should probablly go play runescape with the other kids your age if you still have to lower yourself and sound uneducated by using terms like "scrub". Even if someone plays PM for item filled timed matches at muhfugging Hyrule Temple they shouldn't have to listen to harassment from a mediocre player trying to prove himself through insults and disrespectful/childish behavior. Who at the same time likely started playing smash titles 2-3 years ago max, who ironically would be in the same "scrub" boat as whom he is slandering. Players who like to play Smash differently should also be entitled to an opinion on a game they love and enjoy. They should also be respected even if they have a differing opinion. Those "casual" smashers may have put even more time into the game then top pros but just happened to enjoy the "party game" concept of it. I mean grow up if C-SAF was acting like you would be calling you a torneyfag or some other babyish insult, now you wouldn't like that would you? As a community it shouldn't be about discouraging people or ganging up against them just because of slang they use? Or a touchy subject. Talking about changing or nerfing the Melee top tiers is like debating abortion or religion. Also the views on changing them is split between the top pros too. So it isn't solely based upon skill level or how long a person has played the Smash Titles for.

Sorry for the rant but its annoying seeing chauvinistic dogmatists attacking and discouraging new members to a community that is suppose to be united and welcoming. I don't want people to feel they must leave because of people acting in that way. Guidance and helping hands are what we should be about.

 

[PlateProp]

Tbh, I would like it if the spacies were outright removed from P:M as it is. The entire metagame as is, is slanted by them since mostly everyone was buffed to be anti spacie.

Wolf is iffy for me though, but that may be personal bias, along with the fact that I think it's stupid as **** that wolf can dash attack > side b sweet spot kill

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mew2King is legitimately my favorite player in the world, maybe tied with Armada.

I don't suppose you've housed him.

He's a decent guy, but goddamn.

 

[nimigoha]

I try!

The question on all of our minds, though, is... was my post dope?

I'd go as far to say it was swiggity swag.

@ Frost | Odds

I love watching M2K play. He and Westballz are my favourite Melee players to watch.

But I've heard enough stories/rumors about his proclivities as a guest to believe at least a portion of them.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Sorry for the rant but its annoying seeing chauvinistic dogmatists attacking and discouraging new members to a community that is suppose to be united and welcoming. I don't want people to feel they must leave because of people acting in that way. Guidance and helping hands are what we should be about.

I'm agreeing with RomeDogg and this legitimately confuses me

 

[Leafeon]

As a community it shouldn't be about discouraging people or ganging up against them just because of slang they use?

I would like to say that I personally do not like having parts of a game that I enjoy referred to as an (usually for those who say this word) abused drug, no matter who says it or what the slang really means.

 

[Alex Night]

I don't suppose you've housed him.

He's a decent guy, but goddamn.

Interestingly enough, I've housed him for a couple of days for WHOBO 5. Goddamn, the stories about his gameplay were harder to take in than just watching him over the streams. xD It would've been nice to win at least once during practice, but welp... He is... Different, I'll say that much.

 

[Fortress]

I try!

The question on all of our minds, though, is... was my post dope?

 

[Fortress]

"you can't get better by playing online"

I don't remember saying that, but, okay. My point is that you can't come into a competitive discussion, say that the game should be tuned around "looking flashy and cool", and then say that anything less is boring and non-competitive for... whatever reason.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not the only person (not nearly) disagreeing with Our Most Swiggity Swaggity Dopemeister. If it makes you feel any better, I always get my feelgoods rubbed the wrong way when @DrinkingFood posts his two cents, but I agree with nearly all of what he says. The way I carry myself is nothing new.

I get the whole 'be encouraging' thing, and I've been on both ends of the spectrum, but I'm not beyond calling out scrubby behavior when it becomes toxic. If terms like 'scrub' bug you, then you might be in the wrong century.

I honestly wouldn't give two ****s if I got called a tourneyfag or what you will. Coming from Bum****, Montana, I've spent nearly all of the time in playing Smash with the same, small crew of players over the years, the very same thing you're describing. Coming from humbler roots is nothing new to me at all.

This also bothers me:

Sorry for the rant but its annoying seeing chauvinistic dogmatists attacking and discouraging new members to a community that is suppose to be united and welcoming.

One other thing I'd like to point out: why in the world should coming into a discussion and opening with this be met with encouragement and acceptance?

Lol, you play for the wrong reasons.

If me ****ting on this kind of attitude is still confusing for you, and it's still coming off as childish, then I'm only going to end this with 'he started it'.

So, @ RomeDogg , can you please tell me again why I need to be more nurturing towards a player who comes in and opens with "lol you play for the wrong reasons"?

 

[Leafeon]

Shines are flashy, right?

...

Take away all their other tools, he'll be fine with it.

 

[Narpas_sword]

It would be significantly worse on shield in that case, which many Fox players seem quite attached to. Muscle memory for jumping out of it would also not work anymore because of the lowered hitlag.

I don't see the problem?

Every other player has to readjust something when their main is altered.

The difference between tv (including crt to crt) can be enough to throw off muscle memory for the first few minutes, but our brains do a wonderful thing and automatically adjust.

It's like walking up a different set of stairs. The first few you manually adjust, but then your brain automatically calculates how much you need to lift your leg to clear the subsequent stairs in order not to trip. Even if you've been used to the same stairs for 13 years.

 

[JOE!]

Take away all their other tools, he'll be fine with it.

Some real talk for a second, but I find that this in particular is what bugs me about a handful of the "good" melee characters. People like to chastise that PM characters are full of gimmicks and whatnot, but to me a gimmick is something that a character essentially relies on in order to function, or is there for highly situational usage. Sheik for example had her dthrow in NTSC melee which is an example of the former (though she did not really "need" it, it dominated her play for a while) and an example of the latter with her ability to transform into Zelda which in melee acted as a situational recovery option and in PM can actually be a sort of mix-up given that Zelda is a legitimate choice in some match ups.

Taking away the Dthrow gimmick and buffing Zelda essentially ironed out her gimmicks, and yet she is still amazing in PM. Sheik doesn't really have a real gimmick in PM in that there is no one move that she really relies on to function, hell you can use her without needles and still do work thanks to her other tools. Now, take away Fox/Falco's shine and suddenly what happens to them? Their shield pressure goes away, their combos (especially Falco) become much lesser, and even situational uses such as momentum stall and actually reflecting stuff (especially Falco again since his is lagless on reflect), essentially their power goes right out the window even if they kept the lasers and Uairs/Usmash/Dairs/etc. Other examples would include Rest/Bair (though that is talked about a lot already), and even things like PK Fire. Those two examples are from bad/mid characters but that doesn't exclude them.

While the shine example is a bit extreme/exaggerated, my point still stands that if taking away a single move can essentially destroy a character's potential overall then it is gimmicky. Many "top" characters have moves such as these but at the same time do not have other weaknesses like Ness and Jiggs do that counterbalance the gimmick of that one move (or two). Melee characters with these sorts of things have resistance to change due to sheer time that the tools have been around and all the play developed around them, so it's only natural that alterations would be met with healthy skepticism if not outright anger. But at the same time, other characters had similar "radical" changes and people have been maining them for 6-7 years as well, yet are nowhere near as vocal (just think about Brawl Lucario mains for a sec... I don't think anyone else got as radical an overhaul). People are fine with changes like that, but it seems when the gimmicky bits that let people dominate in the past come into question is when people really take up arms.

In conclusion here, nobody should be safe from change as a TOP melee vet has already seen significant change in the form of a viable down B and non gimmicky dthrow, and another TOP is crying out for change in order to be relevant again. Both of those seem to be accepted by the community while other aspects aren't. If this game is really about balance, we should not allow character bias to dictate game play as that just drives a wedge between the community in various ways and that is more toxic than any buff or nerf you could ever code.

 

[Alex Night]

Shines are flashy, right?

...

Take away all their other tools, he'll be fine with it.

LOL I find that funny actually. You deserve a Shiny Eevee.

 

[Bleck]

While the shine example is a bit extreme/exaggerated, my point still stands that if taking away a single move can essentially destroy a character's potential overall then it is gimmicky.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - anybody that's better in Captain Falcon in Melee is only such because of stupid bull****. How far would Fox and Falco drop if you took their shines away? Or Sheik's forward aerial?

What if Marth's non-tip hitboxes were lessened in power, and you - heaven forbid - actually had to space?