Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[nimigoha]

I dislike it when people say PM needs to not tinker so much because things change and characters aren't hitting their full potential.

3.02 has been out for 10 months. And it doesn't take much longer than that to see how OP Mewtwo and Pit and Lucas and Diddy are, and how Jiggs and Ganon aren't going to compete with them.

Option 1) @ C-SAF said "3.5 should nerf tethers, then all should be left alone except for bugs and cosmetic changes for a few years."

That's cool, except we then have a long stretch of people getting even better with the top characters and leaving characters that *blatantly* cannot compete in the dust.

Option 2) Balance things on the go like we've been doing. If PM didn't have gameplay updates we'd still be stuck with crazy-broken Ike, Sonic, Ivysaur, and Lucario and they were broken AF.

Now that the introduction of new characters has slowed down, the full cast can be looked at together.

3.5 is probably going to be the biggest update gameplay-wise. It's only beaten by 3.0 overall by the introduction of IC, Samus, M2, Roy, Kirby, Olimar, and Yoshi.

So many things are going to change. Characters are going to get better, others will get worse. The constant tinkering is far better than not updating for long stretches of time. Then in 2 years or whatever the PMDT says 'time to nerf all the top tiers because they're too good' and then we're back to square 1 as a new group becomes more powerful than other characters.

Incremental updates of "oh we should tone that down a bit" or "this move needs some love" are better over the same period of time.

 

[C-SAF]

I forgot that cool **** could only be managed in Smash.

Can you explain to me again that Smash is the only not-boring game out there?

Come back when your 'dopeness factor' has earned you any amount of money.

Its my opinion that Smash is the best fighting game, I don't play for money. Lets note debate fighting game merit though, its pointless and to each there own.

 

[Fortress]

Style....enjoy watching.....enjoy it.....use whatever synonyms you want but the game is cool and that's why you play it. People does refer to you.

Dope factor, cool, enjoyable, again don't knit pick on vocab it all means the same and we agree on at least some level

Nobody agrees with you.

Nobody got good at or learned to play in the competitive scene because crazy knee combos with Falcon looked cool, they got in it for the money and the recognition, the earning of which is fun. Why don't you go to your first big-boy major, and come back and tell us how not getting out of your pool sucked, but man did you have fun because you got off this really cool combo that would've worked if you didn't SD in the middle of it.

I don't play for money.

Stay free, because it doesn't sound like you'd have what it takes.

 

[C-SAF]

I forgot that cool **** could only be managed in Smash.

Can you explain to me again that Smash is the only not-boring game out there?

Come back when your 'dopeness factor' has earned you any amount of money.

Its my opinion that Smash is the best fighting game, didn't say others were bad though. Lets not debate fighting game merit though, its pointless and to each there own. Its as arguable as chocolate vs vanilla.

Edit: just saw ur new post, read one of the other responses I made. Of course winning and respect are important, but why smash? If you can answer that by saying I don't like playing smash then you are playing for the wrong reason. The money is not that much, and certainly not worth the trouble you put into the game.

 

[C-SAF]

Nobody agrees with you.

Nobody got good at or learned to play in the competitive scene because crazy knee combos with Falcon looked cool, they got in it for the money and the recognition, the earning of which is fun. Why don't you go to your first big-boy major, and come back and tell us how not getting out of your pool sucked, but man did you have fun because you got off this really cool combo that would've worked if you didn't SD in the middle of it.



Stay free, because it doesn't sound like you'd have what it takes.

You shouldn't play for money either, smash is a terrible occupation choice. I train to get better at this game a lot and it is my free time so don't call me a casual.

 

[Fortress]

The money is not that much, and certainly not worth the trouble you put into the game.

Run that by me again, scrublord?

I train to get better at this game a lot and it is my free time so don't call me a casual.

I call them as I see them. You don't come in here, have an opinion on something in the competitive scene, claim you only play for fun, and then try and have a stake in the competitive scene. You don't say "yeah, the money's not worth it, but I'm not a casual." If you can't be a big boy and start putting yourself out there at some majors with some money on the line, you're nothing but a casual, and won't be anything but a casual. You aren't training to get better, you said it yourself, you play for your 'swag' and for your 'dope factor', neither of which would even see you net a single win in pools.

You either train to get better in the competitive scene because there's something on the line, or you play with some bots at home to practice your swag-tastic casual combos. You don't get to have both. Say this aloud: "I train to get better at playing at home" and then tell me that you aren't a casual.

Can't do it? Stay free.

 

[C-SAF]

Run that by me again, scrublord?

Was looking for fortress on here, didn't see him.
These winnings still barely cover there costs of traveling. Don't make the argument of smash being a get rich quick scheme. Get 5th at a national and walk away with $100 bucks? I don't even know how you think this is a good point. The hours you put into training could easily make you more money applied to something else. We ALL play for fun on some level.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Can you guys move that back and forth to a different place? It's kind of hijacking the original conversation.

@ C-SAF Your arguments are perfectly legit on a very shallow level. This is a competitive game though and absolutely more than anything, competitive balance is the goal.

 

[C-SAF]

Can you guys move that back and forth to a different place? It's kind of hijacking the original conversation.

@ C-SAF Your arguments are perfectly legit on a very shallow level. This is a competitive game though and absolutely more than anything, competitive balance is the goal.

Srry about that, was realizing it myself.

And you may say it is shallow, but it matters to more people than you know. I hope this at least a consideration of the Dev team.

 

[Fortress]

Was looking for fortress on here, didn't see him.
These winnings still barely cover there costs of traveling. Don't make the argument of smash being a get rich quick scheme. Get 5th at a national and walk away with $100 bucks? I don't even know how you think this is a good point. The hours you put into training could easily make you more money applied to something else. We ALL play for fun on some level.

Did you even take into account how many of those players split travel costs with other players? Or downright live in the area? Or have sponsors to cover that sort of thing? I'm not making the argument that playing fight games is a "get rich quick" kind of thing, only the scrubbiest of scrubs would let that thought cross their mind, or even have to mention that it's not true. I'm saying that for the people who try hard enough out there, the money's there, and there's a lot of it.

The two main reasons you don't see me on there are one, I live in the Western part of the country. Attending tournaments in my region is much better for me cost-wise. The second reason, you honestly thing that I'm implying that I'm in top-eight Majors material?

What you should be inferring from what I'm saying here, is that players like me will have a much better chance at ever making money than you (I know I come out around ~$40 positive at my own locals, which is nice enough), who will sit there and say that just having fun is an excuse enough to not have to show that they're not made of the stuff that can ever compete. Yeah, I don't earn money when I attend majors and regionals, but I attend, and I get better each time. I have the drive for it, you don't, but maybe that's just somebody playing for the wrong reasons.

tl;dr: Learn to compete, start playing for more than just 'fun', 'swag', and 'dopeness', and then come back with a competitive opinion. No competitive changes in a competitive game are going to be made to advance the competitive scene on the merit that they look dope.

 

[4tlas]

and to the idea that every character needs a niche that 4tlas else brought up. That's a terrible idea. That's the definition of how you get abusive gameplay and uninteresting characters.

Would you care to explain why? Because I think niches are the definition of the exact opposite: providing interesting choices and allowing balance with diversity.

I'm not saying any character should have such a small niche they can only do one thing, but every niche has to be small enough that no overlaps are complete or identical. Flexibility allows different options to be chosen in-game and that's a good thing, but characters need different strengths and weaknesses if there is going to be any reason to play them at all. Abuse comes from creating characters with one strength but many weaknesses, such that you need to make this strength insanely good to balance the character. Uninteresting characters comes from trying to purposefully avoid all overlap in any form, causing characters to only have one option in-game, which means the only meaningful choice is at character select. Neither of these things comes from the concept of niches itself, they come from poorly designed ones. Anything can be done poorly, and should not be judged by such examples.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I actually have no idea what you mean by 'dope factor'.

 

[C-SAF]

Did you even take into account how many of those players split travel costs with other players? Or downright live in the area? Or have sponsors to cover that sort of thing? I'm not making the argument that playing fight games is a "get rich quick" kind of thing, only the scrubbiest of scrubs would let that thought cross their mind, or even have to mention that it's not true. I'm saying that for the people who try hard enough out there, the money's there, and there's a lot of it.

The two main reasons you don't see me on there are one, I live in the Western part of the country. Attending tournaments in my region is much better for me cost-wise. The second reason, you honestly thing that I'm implying that I'm in top-eight Majors material?

What you should be inferring from what I'm saying here, is that players like me will have a much better chance at ever making money than you (I know I come out around ~$40 positive at my own locals, which is nice enough), who will sit there and say that just having fun is an excuse enough to not have to show that they're not made of the stuff that can ever compete. Yeah, I don't earn money when I attend majors and regionals, but I attend, and I get better each time. I have the drive for it, you don't, but maybe that's just somebody playing for the wrong reasons.

tl;dr: Learn to compete, start playing for more than just 'fun', 'swag', and 'dopeness', and then come back with a competitive opinion. No competitive changes in a competitive game are going to be made to advance the competitive scene on the merit that they look dope.

Message me if ur not done ranting, but I agree this conversation is highjacking the thread.

Would you care to explain why? Because I think niches are the definition of the exact opposite: providing interesting choices and allowing balance with diversity.

Niches seem to limit development and encourage counter picking. The gameplay becomes boring because this niche will always overcome this other niche. There is a best way of playing a character rather than different styles. Many top tiers in melee allow for different styles, such as offensive or defensive. Spacies are the best at this. Its extremely hard to build an entire roster of characters that hold many options, but I would rather PM strive for that than simplify the deepest characters in melee to achieve balance.

 

[Fortress]

Message me if ur not done ranting, but I agree this conversation is highjacking the thread.

Please, you and your 'swagtastic dope factor' aren't even worth my time of day until you can play for something more.

 

[C-SAF]

I actually have no idea what you mean by 'dope factor'.

A visual
http://www.gfycat.com/WearyInsistentFlyingfox#

 

[JOE!]

Essentially, he correlates swag combos you see in highlight reels to actual competitive gameplay and balance. Unfortunately, that is also subjective as for what one man may see as "dope" another sees as "dumb".

 

[C-SAF]

Essentially, he correlates swag combos you see in highlight reels to actual competitive gameplay and balance. Unfortunately, that is also subjective as for what one man may see as "dope" another sees as "dumb".

Jigglypuff dittos are dumb even if they are competitive if you want an example of my point. Competitive means nothing if the gameplay is boring. That's my point at its core. It is subjective but opinions tend to be that way.

 

[Fortress]

Essentially, he correlates swag combos you see in highlight reels to actual competitive gameplay and balance. Unfortunately, that is also subjective as for what one man may see as "dope" another sees as "dumb".

Which is also funny, because by focusing only on dopetastic swag factor, you never reach the level where you can actually do anything in those combo videos.

Also, I don't understand why niches and character quirks are bad. You (not Joe) say that "yeah, characters being different promotes counterpicks, and that's boring", but would you really want to play Street Fighter if it was Ryu and nothing but Ryu on the roster? For a year? Five? Ten?

 

[Fortress]

Competitive means nothing if the gameplay is boring. That's my point at its core. It is subjective but opinions tend to be that way.

Again, we look to the words of our lord and savior, Seth Killian: “But how can anything interestin be a happenin if a whole mess o life aint disappearin, or if there taint no huge ex-plo-zee-uhn on the screen, or leastwise one uh dem purdy color super-deals?”

Please stop, and just read this, for your own good, and for the love of God, quit trying to talk big-boy competitive talk when you yourself do not play in the competitive scene.

 

[C-SAF]

Which is also funny, because by focusing only on dopetastic swag factor, you never reach the level where you can actually do anything in those combo videos.

Also, I don't understand why niches and character quirks are bad. You (not Joe) say that "yeah, characters being different promotes counterpicks, and that's boring", but would you really want to play Street Fighter if it was Ryu and nothing but Ryu on the roster? For a year? Five? Ten?

I don't want to play street fighter period. Also know nothing about the game so don't ask me about it. Mango happens to be the best player in the world right now too, so don't equate swag to scrubs. Im pretty sure he is the definition of playing for the combo and he wins.

Stop bringing this back our skill as players, I do fine in tournament and am only improving while swgging out too. Ive never heard of you so stop talking like ur top **** when as far as im concerned ur just some random guy.

 

[Fortress]

I don't want to play street fighter period

If that's as far as you're reading into any of this, and think that I'm talking specifically Street Fighter, then absolutely nothing you can say here will be taken seriously. Quit thinking I'm talking about Street Fighter specifically for one minute and look at the bigger picture, I know you're capable of at least that much.

'There don't have to be a thousand flashy things going on at once for a game to be interesting or dynamic at the highest levels'. That's what you should be taking away from that. But, like the article is titled, "You can lead a scrub to water..."

 

[Bleck]

Also know nothing about the game so don't ask me about it.

wow what a surprise

 

[Narpas_sword]

A visual
http://www.gfycat.com/WearyInsistentFlyingfox#

eh, i see fox doing fox things and that in no way makes my go "'ooh 'dopeswag' "

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I don't want to play street fighter period. Also know nothing about the game so don't ask me about it. Mango happens to be the best player in the world right now too, so don't equate swag to scrubs. Im pretty sure he is the definition of playing for the combo and he wins.

Stop bringing this back our skill as players, I do fine in tournament and am only improving while swgging out too. Ive never heard of you so stop talking like ur top **** when as far as im concerned ur just some random guy.

Mango plays for the win, the combo just happens to get him there. Please stop making this thread about you and your perceptions on what playing Smash is. Project M is a competitive game designed primarily around the competitive crowd so high tier play and balance is what matters most at this point. (Note: that designing for the competitive crowd does not mean that casuals cannot enjoy it)

Read the thread. Really read the entire thing. Figure out what we're trying to argue. While you're at it, look into some fundamentals in the design of other fighting games. It will help you understand exactly why it is that things work and things do not work. Now please, stop arguing without taking time to create a thought out, well rationalized argument. It doesn't have to be perfect, but you can move away from one specific train of thought and think on the deeper level.

 

[Binary Clone]

You guys just wrote like 2 pages of irrelevant ranting at each other about why different people play the game. He plays the game for whatever reason he wants, and he mistakenly assumed that others play for the same reason. It's a simple matter to say, "That's not as big a factor as you think it is, so we shouldn't take it into account for character balance." And then move on to character balance, which is what this thread is about.

He's pretty much said he's done with the discussion. Let it die.

 

[C-SAF]

Mango plays for the win, the combo just happens to get him there. Please stop making this thread about you and your perceptions on what playing Smash is. Project M is a competitive game designed primarily around the competitive crowd so high tier play and balance is what matters most at this point. (Note: that designing for the competitive crowd does not mean that casuals cannot enjoy it)

Read the thread. Really read the entire thing. Figure out what we're trying to argue. While you're at it, look into some fundamentals in the design of other fighting games. It will help you understand exactly why it is that things work and things do not work. Now please, stop arguing without taking time to create a thought out, well rationalized argument. It doesn't have to be perfect, but you can move away from one specific train of thought and think on the deeper level.

Im arguing you should balance the game around the melee characters. That's what the thread asks. They are both the deepest for competitive play and most fun to play. I'll reframe from posting further though, you can have thread to yourselves.

@ Fortress , get over yourself and understand what others are saying. You talk to others like you are above them when you yourself are a complete unknown.

 

[Deleted member]

The hell is 'dope factor'?

thats when you beat a MLG sponsored player with a ****ty character in a money match in front of a crowd of 50+ people.

yeah i'm old, idgaf

 

[Binary Clone]

Im arguing you should balance the game around the melee characters. That's what the thread asks. They are both the deepest for competitive play and most fun to play. I'll reframe from posting further though, you can have thread to yourselves.

I think the problem with balancing around the Melee characters has been touched on earlier in the thread, but in short it's that many of the Melee top tiers, most notably the spacies, have so many good tools that bringing everyone up to that level often results in many moves or characters that feel broken or gimmicky or simply not fun to play against simply by their nature. I think that, if it were to be introduced today and hadn't been a part of Melee, Fox's shine would be considered very gimmicky and unbalanced. We're used to it, though, and it's not too unfun to play against or around, typically. The problem arises with giving other characters comparable tools without them feeling gimmicky or completely broken.

 

[Phan7om]

C-SAF, i know where you are coming from, I use to think the same thing but here me out.

Theres a difference between "playing for the flashy combo" and "playing and knowing you can do the flashy combo"

From what Ive gotten, you think Mango literally only plays to get the flashy combo, which isnt true at all. He gets those highlight reel flashy combos because he has a good knowledge of the games physics and his opponents thinking, he goes for a hard read and gets pretty lucky. And look how many times he does stuff like that, very rarely because its a gamble... some more safe of a bet than others, but a gamble nonetheless. A big part, I could say even around 60%, of flashy combos are purely luck, and that % only increases the flashier it gets, thats what makes it flashy... the fact that it probably wasnt supposed to work but it did.

My point is since being flashy has too much do with luck, playing specifically to be flashy will get you trashed.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Im arguing you should balance the game around the melee characters. That's what the thread asks. They are both the deepest for competitive play and most fun to play. I'll reframe from posting further though, you can have thread to yourselves.

Balancing around those few characters who were viable enough in Melee is what they've been trying to do. It's why a majority of the top tier PM characters are considered so unbalanced. They're balancing them in a way to not just allow those who happened to be best in Melee to be best here too, cause gerd ferberd should anyone step on the shoes of the characters who already had 13 years in the spotlight.

 

[Fortress]

@ Fortress , get over yourself and understand what others are saying. You talk to others like you are above them when you yourself are a complete unknown.

I'm pretty known in the Washington/Montana area, but that's more due in part to me actually attending and travelling for more events than you have. It's not talking down to you as if you have no idea what you're talking about when I'm not the only one talking down to you because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Being flashy because you know when it's most effective to be flash > being flashy

People are going to start taking you seriously when you stop saying things like 'I don't play in the competitive scene, but I'd like to tell you how the competitive scene could be better'. Fight games don't succeed at high level and become interesting to watch because they're flashy, and you'd do well to get that scrubby mindset out of your head if you're going to try and bring discussion to anywhere relating to the competitive scene.

I understand perfectly well the gist of what you're saying, even if you seem to be trying to change it each time you post. "The game should be focused around being made interesting to watch and retain characters' swag-factor because yolo I saw it in some combo video."

 

[C-SAF]

I'm pretty known in the Washington/Montana area, but that's more due in part to me actually attending and travelling for more events than you have. It's not talking down to you as if you have no idea what you're talking about when I'm not the only one talking down to you because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Being flashy because you know when it's most effective to be flash > being flashy

People are going to start taking you seriously when you stop saying things like 'I don't play in the competitive scene, but I'd like to tell you how the competitive scene could be better'. Fight games don't succeed at high level and become interesting to watch because they're flashy, and you'd do well to get that scrubby mindset out of your head if you're going to try and bring discussion to anywhere relating to the competitive scene.

I understand perfectly well the gist of what you're saying, even if you seem to be trying to change it each time you post. "The game should be focused around being made interesting to watch and retain characters' swag-factor because yolo I saw it in some combo video."

Literally my last post, but I have to say I never said I wasn't a competitive player.

 

[4tlas]

Niches seem to limit development and encourage counter picking. The gameplay becomes boring because this niche will always overcome this other niche. There is a best way of playing a character rather than different styles. Many top tiers in melee allow for different styles, such as offensive or defensive. Spacies are the best at this. Its extremely hard to build an entire roster of characters that hold many options, but I would rather PM strive for that than simplify the deepest characters in melee to achieve balance.

If you think of a niche as Rock/Paper/Scissors, then yes. If there were 3 hard-counter niches and 3 characters exactly filled them, that would result in boring gameplay, since the game would be all about choosing the right character. Fortunately, SmashBros is complex, and there are many basic concepts to combine when creating a character. There are arguably thousands of niches (combinations of strengths and weaknesses) so in a roster of ~40 characters, each character's niche can cover a large space, preventing hard counters and always allowing some counterplay during a match. Melee top tiers (mainly Fox/Falco) allow for different styles so well because they simply have too much power distributed among their options. If you want to buff everyone up to that level, there is no way to let them all have multiple (viable) playstyles while not playing similarly and not having abuse cases.

 

[JOE!]

Use archetype instead of niche, it gets your point across better and people suck at looking for context

Jigglypuff dittos are dumb even if they are competitive if you want an example of my point. Competitive means nothing if the gameplay is boring. That's my point at its core. It is subjective but opinions tend to be that way.

Jigglypuff dittos are boring to some, exciting to others. It's all subjective. For example, I find Falco to be extremely boring to watch because 95% of the time it is the same copy/paste game plan for any given Falco I see.

This does not mean it is not competitive, or even not hype as some people enjoy watching Falco while I do not. What we are trying to accomplish in this thread however is how to analyze every aspect of game play and not just the "flash" that is few and far between. As others have said, the flash comes from both luck and skill as what really makes somebody good at nearly any game is the amount of relatively "boring" actions they can succeed at which aren't readily apparent to viewers from the outside. Things like knowing when to trade, how to hit with a certain spacing of a move, etc. Not just "I'm gonna try to link X to Y to Z for hype", though that is great and all.

Now, can we drop the subject of flash & its competitive merit, move that to a private message if you really want, and instead just get back to talking about potential balance in the game we love?

 

[leekslap]

Oh, you.



No, which I thought the "I just woke up" thing would cover.

Did you read anything that I said?

EDIT: Went back and read what you've said for the past two pages. Nothing but "did you even read what I said", and "why did you even bother replying to me". Closest thing I've said to you was "Puff needs". So, okay...

...Who are you?

I was saying that most of the things you suggested for Fox and Puff were very bad. Nerfing speed WTF? Fox is practically known for speed, genius! On both his gameplay and on pressing buttons. And making it slower and weaker would completely change how Fox plays. A lil weaker will work but slower and making it like PAL is serious overnerfing. Also, the bigger one was the Puff suggestions. Any buff to her combo game will indirectly buff Rest and make her pretty darn broken. More range with her mobility? Please. And Rollout jump cancel? Are you trying to combine Pit and Sonic? Holy **** dude. And nerfing Falco? My motha****ing **** ass Falco ***** main?

Yes, I read what you said. It was very cringe, but I managed.

I'm leekslap. Says right there or can you not read that too?

I disagree with this. There are two Foxes. Mew2King and DEHF. Both play the character in Melee.
There are like no Falcos.

IDK why PM players complain about spacies still. They're nerfed first off. Second off your character likely has been buffed in various areas so they're able to 0-death spacies. Third y'all need to realize that nerfing Fox's up smash will likely throw him in mid tier. If anything Fox mains should be complaining that their character has like 2 kill set ups (one doesn't even work on half the cast because everyone is so floaty), but
Ness has PK fire anything/dthrow anything/dair anything
Mewtwo has Hover air anything/fair anything/dtilt anything/up tilt anything
Sonic has Down B anything (and this move is the freeest approach in the game)
Lucas has everything into anything

Spacies dont need more nerfs. Y'all just suck and need to get better. And this is coming from a non spacie main.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS.

Also, DEHF and Porkchops are AMAZING Falcos. Also some of the Melee players are good Falcos but the afformentioned blow them out of the water. Also me lol I play him and I think Im alrght

Also, I remember some one saying Falcon gets combo'd worse than Fox. LOL No. If you get combo'd playin Falcone the mobster, you are doing something seriously wrong. I get bodied after one freakin hit with Fox. Granted I'm pretty bad with him lol, but I've seen it happen to even the top Foxes. A LOT too.

 

[Fortress]

Should probably put some sort of disclaimer in here that I don't really think Fox/Falco are that incredibly powerful in this game (I don't even put Falco in the top twelve in PM), but that doesn't mean that I don't think they could stand to see some changes here and there.

The way I see it, if you suggest anything about spacies, you get told "just get good at fighting spacies, wow you must suck", and if you don't suggest anything about spacies, you get told "things shouldn't stay Melee just for the sake of staying Melee". So, I'm just going to point out what I want to point out about them.

Nerfing speed WTF? Fox is practically known for speed, genius!

There are people that obviously want something done with this character, shame on me for pointing out something specific. I mentioned attack speeds in general, not his movement speed, citing uSmash as a specific move that could stand to be made more punishable without directly having to weaken it, genius.

The closest thing to Fox's movement that I touched on was suggesting his jump height be slightly reduced so as to indirectly reduce the effectiveness of uThrow > uAir without having to take away from either.

On both his gameplay and on pressing buttons. And making it slower and weaker would completely change how Fox plays. A lil weaker will work but slower and making it like PAL is serious overnerfing.

How.

I don't see how having to be more thoughtful about uSmash, and making uThrow > uAir slightly less brainless could drastically change Fox's core character. I don't understand how that's 'serious nerfing' that the character would somehow not be able to deal with. Just because uSmash wouldn't be able to kill at 80% wouldn't mean the character couldn't manage.

Also, the bigger one was the Puff suggestions. Any buff to her combo game will indirectly buff Rest and make her pretty darn broken.

How.

So, this character should continue to suffer in the near-unplayable portion of the roster just because one move at her core might make her too good? Ever consider suggesting changes to that move?

More range with her mobility? Please. And Rollout jump cancel? Are you trying to combine Pit and Sonic? Holy ****

No, or I'd make all of her moves active under frame ten, give her at least three moves with reverse knockback, a projectile that can confirm into itself from anywhere on the stage, and kill power on over four moves at under 100%. That'd be more to the effect of Pit.

dude. And nerfing Falco? My motha****ing **** *** Falco ***** main?

Yes, boo hoo, you'd have to compensate for your character being changed. My main is about to get changed up pretty hard, and you don't see me whining. Ganondorf's always had it rough, and you don't see Ganon mains crying. Sonic has done nothing but get the shaft since earlier versions, and Sonic mains manage. So, yes, I think you could live if your character had some changes. Act like a grown-up, and discuss this objectively.

That is the topic of discussion presented through the thread. Be open to it.

Not sure why you feel like I'm attacking you here or something, but try not to cringe.

 

[Narpas_sword]

A lil weaker will work but slower and making it like PAL is serious overnerfing.

As a PAL player, you are completely and totally wrong.

 

[TreK]

And nerfing Falco? My motha****ing **** *** Falco ***** main?

I kept on playing Ivysaur when 3.0 was released and this was what the patch note for my character looked like :

Spoiler

- Maximum tether hangtime was halved
- Forced Tether Jump upon reel-in no longer has IASA or refreshes a double jump
- Increased aerial drift strength and decreased aerial friction
- Slightly decreased grounded friction
- Fall speed slightly increased, and fastfall speed increased
- Forward Tilt endlag increased
- Forward Tilt back hitbox and the innermost front hitbox have increased SDI multipliers
- Forward Tilt back final hitbox damage decreased to match earlier weak hits
- Down Tilt's 2nd hit now only pops up at the outer 2 hitboxes instead of outer 3 hitboxes
- Neutral Air final hit knockback growth decreased
- Forward Air startup increased
- Forward Air hitbox angles have been noticeably lowered to send further horizontally
- Forward Air damage increased by 1
- Forward Air base knockback increased , knockback growth decreased
- Back Air closer endlag mostly reverted to v2.5. Still allows a small window to short-hop Back Air autocancel
- Back Air send off hits have increased base knockback, and the inner trajectory has been lowered
- Back Air outer hitbox damage increased to 5
- Up Air sweetspot Knock back growth and damage increased. Hitbox size decreased, with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur. Sourspot angle decreased
- Up Air no longer halts horizontal momentum on fall
- Up Air meteor hitboxes redone - now two side-by-side hitboxes that maintain horizontal coverage with negative disjoint on the bottom
- Down Air cooldown increased
- Down Air damage increased and homogenized against grounded and aerial targets to 7
- Down Air sweetspot size decreased, with the sweetspot deeper inside Ivysaur
- Grabs - outer 2 of 5 boxes on standing & pivot grab + outer 1 box of 3 on dash grab are ground-only to alleviate CG issues
- Forward Throw knockback lowered to match 2.6 B-Throw
- Back Throw knockback growth increased
- Up Throw angle increased to send slightly behind Ivysaur
- Up Throw knockback growth decreased
- Down Throw knockback growth increased
- Neutral-B startup hit is now a relatively weak windbox
- Neutral-B max charge lowered from 22% to 18%
- Aerial Neutral-B land-cancels only if the Special Button is not held
- Forward-B checks if existing leaf is out on frame 1 instead of 15.
- Forward-B hit refresh rate slower , damage increased per hit by 1, hit angle increased to send further vertical
- Forward-B Razor Leaf slowed down to v2.5 timings; physics/floats ported from v2.5, but lasts 5 frames longer
- Up-B sweetspot hitbox size slightly increased
- Up-B sweetspot damage increased to 18
- Down-B seeds rise slower, do not go as high, and fall more slowly as well
-Jab1 and Jab2 had a chance to cause a trip, this has been removed
-Up Air non-L-canceled landing lag value decreased slightly

Cry me a river.

 

[leekslap]

There are people that obviously want something done with this character, shame on me for pointing out something specific. I mentioned attack speeds in general, not his movement speed, citing uSmash as a specific move that could stand to be made more punishable without directly having to weaken it, genius.

The closest thing to Fox's movement that I touched on was suggesting his jump height be slightly reduced so as to indirectly reduce the effectiveness of uThrow > uAir without having to take away from either.



How.

I don't see how having to be more thoughtful about uSmash, and making uThrow > uAir slightly less brainless could drastically change Fox's core character. I don't understand how that's 'serious nerfing' that the character would somehow not be able to deal with. Just because uSmash wouldn't be able to kill at 80% wouldn't mean the character couldn't manage.



How.

So, this character should continue to suffer in the near-unplayable portion of the roster just because one move at her core might make her too good? Ever consider suggesting changes to that move?



No, or I'd make all of her moves active under frame ten, give her at least three moves with reverse knockback, a projectile that can confirm into itself from anywhere on the stage, and kill power on over four moves at under 100%. That'd be more to the effect of Pit.



Yes, boo hoo, you'd have to compensate for your character being changed. My main is about to get changed up pretty hard, and you don't see me whining. Ganondorf's always had it rough, and you don't see Ganon mains crying. Sonic has done nothing but get the shaft since earlier versions, and Sonic mains manage. So, yes, I think you could live if your character had some changes. Act like a grown-up, and discuss this objectively.

That is the topic of discussion presented through the thread. Be open to it.

Not sure why you feel like I'm attacking you here or something, but try not to cringe.

Up air isn't nearly as broken as up smash especially since you can SDI which practically gives it a super tiny hitbox IDK why people keep mentioning it, and I've been able to work around up smash well with ma MK. This is why I think people just need to get better. People say nerf nair when you can just not be a scrub and work around it. His lasers are NOT the best projectile in the game. They are so much worse than in Melee and M2K agrees with me. Anyone in the game can gimmick him to death and the diversity makes him THAT much easier to counterpick. There is YEARS of matchup experience against him. I do agree making his up smash less safe would be a good design choice and making it slightly weaker is a given.

Puff is very hard to buff but the recovery nerfs will help her. Improving her attacks so that they are better for SPACING ( not comboing ) and GIMPING. Maybe meld in some stuff from games other than Melee? IDK

I'm Ganondorf main and if crying is begging for buffs then we do it A LOT lol! I play both Ganon and Falco because they are SUPER FUN and Falco especially just seems perfect to me.

I'm sorry if I sounded hostile. Its a prohlem

 

[Narpas_sword]

Again.

People can gimick him to death
This is BECAUSE theyve been given tools to do so..
They have been given tools to do so BECAUSE spacies were too dominant.
These tools now ALSO work on every character.

how do some people not follow this?