Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[leekslap]

The further PM gets away from Melee the less popular it becomes. Bringing back Melee top tiers to how they were in Melee is what drove many people to PM in the first place. Mess with that and people will go back to Melee. Making everyone else on the level of Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, Shiek, Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon while keeping those characters as close the their Melee counterparts as possible should be what PM strives for.

Peach and Captain Falcon are perfect the way they are. Even Fox and Falco are perfect the way they are (Though they could use their first frame shine invincibility back and removing the decay on laser damage). Marth is pretty good, in fact he too would be perfect if his Dancing Blade wasn't so different from how it was in Melee. Shiek should get the hurtboxes back on her needles and their Melee properties should return in full glory.

Um...

Being close to Melee has next to nothing to do with popularity. If you don't like how your main is in Project M and/or Smash 4 then you find another character like how we've been doing it for ALL the Smash games. ZeRo's character got nerfed completely and changed radically in Project M so he switched to Pit and dominates all the tournaments. Denti's character got straight up cut from Smash 4 and he kicks butts with his new Sheik! Or you could just adapt like ESAM and Plup adapted to Samus and Gimpyfish adapted to Bowser. Heck even Mango adapted to Falco in Bra-... You-Know-What, and ZeRo still mains Fox in Smash 4 despite lacking all the things that made Fox what he is in Melee.

I don't know much about Peach, but I'd die of happiness if Falcon got some stuff from 64.

Do you even know what a shine is? It's an ultra fast ( spike ) move that opens up a whole new world of pressure, movement, and combos ( including a combo that literally renders you helpless in hitstun ) and is near impossible to punish since it is jump cancelable and you want to make it invincible?

Also, people need to shut up about nerfing Fox and especially Falco. The only nerf I find reasonable is to nerf Fox's up smash. No nerfs to up air or complete reimagings or stuff like that.

 

[nimigoha]

I honestly think this discussion is only currently relevant to Fox. If Diddy, Pit, Lucas, and M2 are getting 'redesigned' to promote balance, Fox is the only Melee top 8 close to that level. Perhaps in future versions this may change.

I don't think 'that's how they've always been' is a good argument. This game promotes balance, which is why our frame 1 jump-cancellable semi-spike is actually beatable now.

So far it seems like they've tried to balance characters to match the Melee top tiers. Looking at the way some characters totally outclass others, my ideal final version would have more self-balance than aiming for a standard set by Melee.

I think Falcon, Sheik, Marth, Peach, and 3.5 IC are all pretty well-balanced characters. Jiggs will get an indirect buff with recovery redesign which is good. Falco I don't think dominates many matchups the same way Fox can.

No one seems to be complaining about Melee top 8 buffs though...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think we've been *begging* for Falcon buffs for a long time, actually.

 

[Vashimus]

Falcon is a crack-head character in almost the same way Fox is. If you're gonna give the fastest character in the game buffs, you better tread lightly.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think we've been *begging* for Falcon buffs for a long time, actually.

God, no. He's perfect where he is.

 

[Phan7om]

PM Falcon is where everyone should be around balance wise

 

[Bleck]

yeah I'd actually argue that Melee/PM Falcon is pretty much flawless and anyone better than him is probably because of stupid broken nonsense

 

[Vashimus]

Whatever **** you guys are smoking, I want some of it.

Falcon has 5 moves (all his aerials) and 2 throws and nothing else is viable except maybe gentlemen. From there, he basically dash-dances like a crackhead, and does the same stupid **** over and over again and it either works because the player doesn't know what the hell to do, or it doesn't because everything else the character has sucks. Barely any adaptation or strategy involved with his gameplan. He does a down-throw, guesses correctly twice and now you're dead at 70%. If you get hit with a launcher at around 20%, you can kiss goodbye to that stock.

So in the end, you're left with a character who literally does the same thing for 5 minutes and it works anyway until it's used against a player trained enough to deal with it. Silly ass character that we love simply because he's Captain mother****ing Falcon, but flawless character design my tailbone.

 

[MHTak]

Yeah, melee top tiers work in the melee metagame, but how they interact with other characters has to be taken into account. They are top tier for some reason. I think this point has been made enough times in this thread

@ Frost | Odds What would you do to bring the top tiers down a peg? This is not directed towards you, but you are the last person to bring this up, and I want to point out some details.

It isn't quite certain, that the only reason for the characters with powerful options causing trouble is that they have too powerful options instead of their toolsets being too imbalanced in relation to the rest of the cast.
When designing a character you need to think about how do the tools you give it impact the character's neutralgame:
Does the tool give an immediate threat which gives it certain positional advantages, does it give uncommital mobility which encances the character's ability to get into advantageous positions, and does it have potential to protect the character from attacks without being too punishable or giving up too much stage control (or does it work as an escape method only)?

If a character's toolset is one sided, it loses to the abuse of what it's weak against, and if the character is also strong, it dominates those who cannot. In short, it leads to polarising matchups.
When the cast size increases, it is harder to keep the characters balanced that way and exceptions are less toleratable, since this kind of observation is a bit matchup dependent. This means that the character strenghts must be more homogenized across the cast.

The point is that if each strong character is toned down but the imbalance is kept, nothing is achieved.

Edit. I'm really slow.
Edit2. What kind of balance would make the game interesting must also be thought of.

 

[Phan7om]

Wasnt implying his design was perfect, but his overall balance is pretty good.

 

[leekslap]

Whatever **** you guys are smoking, I want some of it.

Falcon has 5 moves (all his aerials) and 2 throws and nothing else is viable except maybe gentlemen. From there, he basically dash-dances like a crackhead, and does the same stupid **** over and over again and it either works because the player doesn't know what the hell to do, or it doesn't because everything else the character has sucks. Barely any adaptation or strategy involved with his gameplan. He does a down-throw, guesses correctly twice and now you're dead at 70%. If you get hit with a launcher at around 20%, you can kiss goodbye to that stock.

So in end, you're left with a character who literally does the same thing for 5 minutes and it works anyway until it's used against a player trained enough to deal with it. Silly *** character, but we love him because he's Captain Falcon. Flawless character design my tailbone.

I changed my mind about liking your post in 30 seconds. I changed it again. Man, I am really indecisive.

If you thought Falcon was limited, just remember that Puff literally only has 2 good moves! Also, which throws are you refering to? I actually think all of Falcon's throws are good, but me a n00b. His down and side tilt ain't too bad either and up smash has its uses.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm still baffled people are saying the spacies are well designed in Melee.

Fox isn't well designed at all in Melee or in PM. Falco is a bit better but he falls into the same design trap Fox is.

Give them actually weaknesses that will define what there power is rather than keeping them as overall strong Jack of all trades kinds of characters.

I like Fox and Falco but honestly keeping them as is isn't a good answer.

 

[leekslap]

I honestly think this discussion is only currently relevant to Fox. If Diddy, Pit, Lucas, and M2 are getting 'redesigned' to promote balance, Fox is the only Melee top 8 close to that level. Perhaps in future versions this may change.

I don't think 'that's how they've always been' is a good argument. This game promotes balance, which is why our frame 1 jump-cancellable semi-spike is actually beatable now.

So far it seems like they've tried to balance characters to match the Melee top tiers. Looking at the way some characters totally outclass others, my ideal final version would have more self-balance than aiming for a standard set by Melee.

I think Falcon, Sheik, Marth, Peach, and 3.5 IC are all pretty well-balanced characters. Jiggs will get an indirect buff with recovery redesign which is good. Falco I don't think dominates many matchups the same way Fox can.

No one seems to be complaining about Melee top 8 buffs though...

When did anyone say those jank characters were getting redesigned? And how would Fox get redesigned at all?

I never said I didn't want spacies to change because of Melee. I just don't think they should overhauled or nerfed outside of Fox's up smash. Kills at 40% now that's broken.

Seriously dude, what are you saying or argueing even. Why did you reply to my post at my post all?

Are you on something right now? You from da future or somethin? Aside from Marth, all the characters you listed are low or mid tier. It's not that they are bad, but they are pretty underpowered compared to the rest of the cast. Ice Climbers is like, the worst character. WTF are you saying?

OK, now you convinced me you are from the future. How's global warming? Did I ever go to a national? Is Ridley in Smash 4 as DLC or is he in Smash 5?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I changed my mind about liking your post in 30 seconds. I changed it again. Man, I am really indecisive.

If you thought Falcon was limited, just remember that Puff literally only has 2 good moves! Also, which throws are you refering to? I actually think all of Falcon's throws are good, but me a n00b. His down and side tilt ain't too bad either and up smash has its uses.

What point are you making here?

Are you saying that because another character is more limited than a character with a fairly limited viable movepool, that he can't bring attention to how linear and limited Captain Falcon is?

 

[leekslap]

I'm still baffled people are saying the spacies are well designed in Melee.

Fox isn't well designed at all in Melee or in PM. Falco is a bit better but he falls into the same design trap Fox is.

Give them actually weaknesses that will define what there power is rather than keeping them as overall strong Jack of all trades kinds of characters.

I like Fox and Falco but honestly keeping them as is isn't a good answer.

Yeah, Fox is pretty broken in Melee.

OK, now you are just wrong. You wouldn't mind actually EXPLAINING a bit so I have somethin to argue?

I COMPLETELY agree. Being very susceptible to chain grabs, combos, and having a very gimpable recovery are barely flaws. What are you thinking PMDT? #obvioussarcasmisobvious

I like spacies too.

 

[leekslap]

What point are you making here?

Are you saying that because another character is more limited than a character with a fairly limited viable movepool, that he can't bring attention to how linear and limited Captain Falcon is?

That puff sucks and Falcon isn't too bad. Man I gotta edit my posts now, too many posts you know!

 

[Frost | Odds]

It isn't quite certain, that the only reason for the characters with powerful options causing trouble is that they have too powerful options instead of their toolsets being too imbalanced in relation to the rest of the cast.
When designing a character you need to think about how do the tools you give it impact the character's neutralgame:
Does the tool give an immediate threat which gives it certain positional advantages, does it give uncommital mobility which encances the character's ability to get into advantageous positions, and does it have potential to protect the character from attacks without being too punishable or giving up too much stage control (or does it work as an escape method only)?

If a character's toolset is one sided, it loses to the abuse of what it's weak against, and if the character is also strong, it dominates those who cannot. In short, it leads to polarising matchups.
When the cast size increases, it is harder to keep the characters balanced that way and exceptions are less toleratable, since this kind of observation is a bit matchup dependent. This means that the character strenghts must be more homogenized across the cast.

Indeed.

Yeah, melee top tiers work in the melee metagame, but how they interact with other characters has to be taken into account. They are top tier for some reason. I think this point has been made enough times in this thread

@ Frost | Odds What would you do to bring the top tiers down a peg? This is not directed towards you, but you are the last person to bring this up, and I want to point out some details.

For Fox: I'd experiment with reducing the kill power of his usmash to PAL level, along with a comparable nerf to his uair, as well as decreasing his weight- I think PAL did this one too.

For all his faults, Fox is an incredibly fun character to play as, as well as a pretty fun one to play against, if you're a character that can compete with him. Due to the technical/human/physical limitations of playing him, he's a bit more balanced in practice than in theory, but he's still just way too versatile in terms of what he can do, and what he can get away with, compared to most of the cast. The above nerfs would help, but I'm far from convinced that they'd be enough to bring him in line. A big part of this problem is that his dash dance is probably still by far the best in Melee AND PM - because the number and strength of his options out of it (different nair timings, running shine into grab/usmash/whatever, dair, grab, raw usmash, runaway lasers, etc), as well as just its raw speed, are going to be problematic pretty much no matter what nerfs are applied.

I don't want to break Fox's playstyle, or alienate Melee Fox players more than we have to, but let's be honest- those kinds of players aren't PM's target audience anyway. To make a decent mod, gotta crack some eggs.

Some other changes that IMO would be worth looking at (though I doubt they'd all be necessary - I'd hesitate to impement more than 1 or 2 in the same patch):
- Decreasing the damage of his nair
- Dramatically increasing the lag after up-b
- Changing the hitboxes on his up-B to match Falco's (ie. smaller/less invincible during flight, and lacking the hitboxes on startup)
- Add electric effect, or split the first hit of uair into 2 hits, to make it easier to SDI out of
- Slightly reduce the *vertical* hitbox of shine

It might seem like a bit much, until you compare Fox to a character like Pikachu or Squirtle, who are basically strictly worse versions of the same thing, with way less and less powerful and less safe options.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

That puff sucks and Falcon isn't too bad. Man I gotta edit my posts now, too many posts you know!

Ah, so because one character IS more limited, that means that another person is not because it's not as bad as that one limited character.

Just because someone else needs a little more variety, does not mean that someone with slightly more variety does not also.

 

[leekslap]

Indeed.


For Fox: I'd experiment with reducing the kill power of his usmash to PAL level, along with a comparable nerf to his uair, as well as decreasing his weight- I think PAL did this one too.

For all his faults, Fox is an incredibly fun character to play as, as well as a pretty fun one to play against, if you're a character that can compete with him. Due to the technical/human/physical limitations of playing him, he's a bit more balanced in practice than in theory, but he's still just way too versatile in terms of what he can do, and what he can get away with, compared to most of the cast. The above nerfs would help, but I'm far from convinced that they'd be enough to bring him in line. A big part of this problem is that his dash dance is probably still by far the best in Melee AND PM - because the number and strength of his options out of it (different nair timings, running shine into grab/usmash/whatever, dair, grab, raw usmash, runaway lasers, etc), as well as just its raw speed, are going to be problematic pretty much no matter what nerfs are applied.

I don't want to break Fox's playstyle, or alienate Melee Fox players more than we have to, but let's be honest- those kinds of players aren't PM's target audience anyway. To make a decent mod, gotta crack some eggs.

Some other changes that IMO would be worth looking at (though I doubt they'd all be necessary - I'd hesitate to impement more than 1 or 2 in the same patch):
- Decreasing the damage of his nair
- Dramatically increasing the lag after up-b
- Changing the hitboxes on his up-B to match Falco's (ie. smaller/less invincible during flight, and lacking the hitboxes on startup)
- Add electric effect, or split the first hit of uair into 2 hits, to make it easier to SDI out of
- Slightly reduce the *vertical* hitbox of shine

It might seem like a bit much, until you compare Fox to a character like Pikachu or Squirtle, who are basically strictly worse versions of the same thing, with way less and less powerful and less safe options.

And that's how you make Fox a low tier!

Ah, so because one character IS more limited, that means that another person is not because it's not as bad as that one limited character.

Just because someone else needs a little more variety, does not mean that someone with slightly more variety does not also.

Woah, you are totally misniterpreting that. I meant that Puff is bad because she is very limited, and Falcon is pretty good, and those two points are not related at all.

 

[nimigoha]

@ leekslap I wasn't responding directly to you, just addressing the thread in general.

And mentioning the Melee 8's viability, I think that Peach, Falcon, Sheik, and ICs are all decently balanced characters. I never mentioned where they were on "the tier list".

Of course they can't compete with the top tiers characters because those characters are too good. But that doesn't mean that they're poorly done.

However there is a big thing that I'd like to address, and that's useless moves. I would have thought that the PMDT would have done something about them by now.

They've addressed them with pretty much everyone except the Melee top 8. Moves have been buffed to have more utility. There are some moves that are almost never used, but not many outside of the Melee top 8. And by that I'm mostly referring to Jiggs and Falcon. In Melee, Jiggs had Fsmash, Utilt, Rest, Pound, Bair, Nair, Fair, and Uair. Seeing something else in a match is rare. 2 useless specials, 2 garbage smashes, 2 terrible tilts, and Dair really isn't great. PM buffed Dair a little but aerial Jiggs far outclasses grounded Jiggs so all her other ground moves don't really matter.

Melee Falcon, as mentioned by Vashimus, had Gentleman and 5 aerials. You would maybe see a Dtilt or a Raptor Boost, or a Utilt for an edgeguard. PM Falcon got a drastically improved Falcon Kick (although it's a really tricky move to land on a good opponent) and a better Raptor Boost, but since his aerials are so good he still doesn't care about his ground moves.

I think that making Jiggs and Falcon into not 1/2 of a character would require rebalancing their current good moves which would alter their play style. I simultaneously would like a full character but I think that those characters should stay largely based on their Melee counterparts. It's a tough line.

Disclaimer: I know that their moves all have some sort of use. Smash is so freestyle that a combo may lead to a sick Fsmash opportunity with Falcon. I just mean that comparing them to a character like Fox, whose least useful moves are Fair (seeing more use as combo extender) and Ftilt (eh) or Lucas, whose least useful move is Dsmash.

 

[JKJ]

This is getting absurb. Why on Earth are we discussing nerfing Melee top tiers (MORE) when they aren't even winning/making top 8 at nationals? They aren't even good in PM and the PM community STILL wants them nerfed. Every time I play PM, I'm struck by how hilariously bad spacies, Marth, Sheik, Puff, and Peach are. They suck. I feel as though (and have said as much) the Melee top tiers are discriminated against in PM. If you were good in Melee, you aren't ALLOWED to be good in PM. The Devs seem like they are against any of the Melee top 8 being good at all. As it stands, the only one viable to compete against any of the good PM characters is Fox, and even he can't really hold up. If the PM top tier gets some reasonable nerfs, Fox and Falco will still be s**t compared to other good PM characters; they will still have absurd matchups, characters will have insane punishes on them, and characters will still remain at an awkward combo weight that doesn't allow for much follow ups. Melee top tiers in general have some of the worst recoveries in the game, and even the ones that do have decent recoveries are abysmal otherwise. Nerfing melee top tiers again would just ensure that they are never viable in any tournament setting again for the rest of PM's life. That does seem like what all the PM Devs and fans want, though, so I guess you should stop hiding behind "overall balance" as your excuse and just remove them from the game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Some part of me doubts that actually, I'm still getting far more PM attendance then Sm4sh in my local scene.

Wii version will be more popular.

 

[Bleck]

This is getting absurb. Why on Earth are we discussing nerfing Melee top tiers (MORE) when they aren't even winning/making top 8 at nationals? They aren't even good in PM and the PM community STILL wants them nerfed.

The problem is whether or not Fox/Falco's more technically difficult tools are meaningful enough to the metagame that they should continue to exist to the detriment of all other aspects of balance in the game.

 

[nimigoha]

This is getting absurb. Why on Earth are we discussing nerfing Melee top tiers (MORE) when they aren't even winning/making top 8 at nationals? They aren't even good in PM and the PM community STILL wants them nerfed. Every time I play PM, I'm struck by how hilariously bad spacies, Marth, Sheik, Puff, and Peach are. They suck. I feel as though (and have said as much) the Melee top tiers are discriminated against in PM. If you were good in Melee, you aren't ALLOWED to be good in PM. The Devs seem like they are against any of the Melee top 8 being good at all. As it stands, the only one viable to compete against any of the good PM characters is Fox, and even he can't really hold up. If the PM top tier gets some reasonable nerfs, Fox and Falco will still be s**t compared to other good PM characters; they will still have absurd matchups, characters will have insane punishes on them, and characters will still remain at an awkward combo weight that doesn't allow for much follow ups. Melee top tiers in general have some of the worst recoveries in the game, and even the ones that do have decent recoveries are abysmal otherwise. Nerfing melee top tiers again would just ensure that they are never viable in any tournament setting again for the rest of PM's life. That does seem like what all the PM Devs and fans want, though, so I guess you should stop hiding behind "overall balance" as your excuse and just remove them from the game.

This thread recognizes that Fox is pretty much the only questionable Melee 8 character in PM, the others don't need nerfs.

"Hilariously bad" is really not a term I would use to describe PM Fox. He's barely been changed.

Yes, Diddy and Mewtwo and Pit and some worse characters have ways of really ruining his day. I highly doubt this is going to stay that way in 3.5.

Keeping Fox almost identical to Melee forced the PMDT to buff characters to his level. Some characters they over-buffed. I feel like you're taking this design flaw as a personal attack by the PMDT. It's also something they've addressed, and loads of characters are getting redesigned.

Fox and Falco are glass cannons. They were the same in Melee. Marth has a 40% chain grab leading into a tipper Fsmash. They have predictable and easy to stop recoveries. But their offensive power is unmatched in that game.

Not, as you think, out of malice for spacies, but rather by almost accidental overbuffing, some PM characters got an offensive kit on the level of spacies but they don't have nearly as many of the drawbacks.

This is going to change in 3.5. Fox still dominates over a large portion of the cast, and we're discussing whether he should be immune to more nerfs or if the PMDT should just buff everyone to his level (because that worked so well last time).

If you're changing most of the cast to deal with a character, the problem isn't most of the cast, it's the character.

 

[leekslap]

@ leekslap I wasn't responding directly to you, just addressing the thread in general.

And mentioning the Melee 8's viability, I think that Peach, Falcon, Sheik, and ICs are all decently balanced characters. I never mentioned where they were on "the tier list".

Of course they can't compete with the top tiers characters because those characters are too good. But that doesn't mean that they're poorly done.

However there is a big thing that I'd like to address, and that's useless moves. I would have thought that the PMDT would have done something about them by now.

They've addressed them with pretty much everyone except the Melee top 8. Moves have been buffed to have more utility. There are some moves that are almost never used, but not many outside of the Melee top 8. And by that I'm mostly referring to Jiggs and Falcon. In Melee, Jiggs had Fsmash, Utilt, Rest, Pound, Bair, Nair, Fair, and Uair. Seeing something else in a match is rare. 2 useless specials, 2 garbage smashes, 2 terrible tilts, and Dair really isn't great. PM buffed Dair a little but aerial Jiggs far outclasses grounded Jiggs so all her other ground moves don't really matter.

Melee Falcon, as mentioned by Vashimus, had Gentleman and 5 aerials. You would maybe see a Dtilt or a Raptor Boost, or a Utilt for an edgeguard. PM Falcon got a drastically improved Falcon Kick (although it's a really tricky move to land on a good opponent) and a better Raptor Boost, but since his aerials are so good he still doesn't care about his ground moves.

I think that making Jiggs and Falcon into not 1/2 of a character would require rebalancing their current good moves which would alter their play style. I simultaneously would like a full character but I think that those characters should stay largely based on their Melee counterparts. It's a tough line.

Disclaimer: I know that their moves all have some sort of use. Smash is so freestyle that a combo may lead to a sick Fsmash opportunity with Falcon. I just mean that comparing them to a character like Fox, whose least useful moves are Fair (seeing more use as combo extender) and Ftilt (eh) or Lucas, whose least useful move is Dsmash.

Oh, OK sorry lol

ICE CLIMBERS PROS AND CONS
Pros
- have ice projectile
- very cute
- good combos
- can recover to the stage sometimes
- cool gimmick does let them be grabbed by molesters
- ok moveset
- pressure double attacks!
Cons
- everything

Puff is very hard to buff because of Rest and Kirby. If they improve her attacks, that means improving her combos and indirectly, Rest. Rest is very broken and bad design overall, but you don't see it because its on a character with one other really good move. Kirby is Jigglypuff with good design choices. It's eerie how similar they are w/o Rest in the mix.

Everything else I agree.
@ nimigoha OK, what nerf would you suggest outside of up smash that doesn't make him low tier or overnerfed?

Even M2K ( the best PM Fox and the most knowledgeable player by far ) thinks Fox is the most overrated character in the game in both PM AND Melee. He thinks Falco is better than Fox in Melee and I'm inclined to agree.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Woah, you are totally misniterpreting that. I meant that Puff is bad because she is very limited, and Falcon is pretty good, and those two points are not related at all.

2 viable moves vs 5 viable moves. Regardless of whether or not Falcon is decent in Project M, does not detract from what makes him so linear and limited. If you want to play the comparison game, compare Falcon to one of PM's high tier characters and determine which of the two has more variety.

For the hell of it, I'll compare Mario to Falcon, including moves that have value when it comes to stage play only.
Uair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Nair, Jab, Utilt, Dtilt, Fireball, Down Throw, Up throw, Down Smash, Up Smash, Forward Smash. That doesn't include Cape for off stage gimping/reflecting/recovery, Mario Tornado for recovery, or Super Jump Punch. That's still 14 moves generally used compared to 5.

Whether or not Falcon needs all those moves to be a viable threat is not my point overall though, just that he's limited when compared to others.
But why not compare him to a lower tiered character that I also like and keep the comparisons going. Let's use Donkey Kong.
Uair, Nair, Bair, Fair, Giant Punch, Ground Slap, Cargo throw Up, Forward/Backward, Utilt, Dtilt, Jab, and Spinning Kong OOS. That's 12 moves generally used on stage.

Does Falcon seem a little limited now in comparison? (I may have missed a few commonly used moves, in which case, someone let me know.)

 

[nimigoha]

People have created a perpetuating stereotype of IC.

Pros:

-Chaingrabs. All over the place. All kinds. It's not handoffs or wobbling, but you can rack up damage pretty quickly.
-Smashes are really good.
-Recovery is really good if you keep both alive.
-Desyncs from Melee and Brawl mean you can easily launch a string of crazy moves.
-Nana is actually smart now.
-SoPo is better.

Cons:

-God are they hard to use. Remember when you were a casual who didn't know about competitive smash and you played Melee ICs and thought they were trash because you had no flipping idea what to do? I sure as hell do, and so do all my friends. I think people still have to figure them out in PM. Melee/Brawl ICs aren't playing the character because it's quite different, so the floor is open to people new to the character, meaning we're going to have to wait to see how good they can be.
-Easy as heck to kill. They're so floaty and so light. SoPo is a lot better but he's still half a character.
-Over-reliant on grabs. Desync setups lead into grabs. Very handsy character.
-Throw release point is effed up, but this has been confirmed to be fixed in 3.5. Say hello to more grabs!

 

[Eisen]

To answer this thread's question, I'll just say: No, they should not. Fox is only getting better as time goes on. Being that most of the jank in the top 5 of PM cast is confirmed to be nerfed, one can guess that given the knowledge already obtained through 13 years of Melee Fox and the sheer constant increase in average Fox technical ability and efficiency, that if he doesn't change in 3.5, he's going to dominate again.

Real quick, the only thing besides Fox I don't like about Melee top tiers is: Falco's lasers and dair. I've been under the opinion for a while that Falco ought to have to do something like recharge his lasers so that, you know, he can't force every character in the game to approach with powershields through a huge wall of lasers. "Waahhh, but laser spam is technical!" Yeah well, getting through those lasers, reacting to them AND making sure Falco doesn't just bait you into doing something obvious through limiting a ton of options ALSO requires work. I shouldn't have to play technically every time Falco is across the stage from me for the end of time because lasers have unlimited ammo. Limiting how often he can laser to force approach would ensure that Falcos use this mechanic intelligently instead of brainlessly as a gimmick to force people who don't know how to deal with it to approach.

I realize there are a LOT of drawbacks to Falco, and I agree he's not even half as stupid as Fox, but the whole laser camping thing just forces characters like Bowser to have ridiculous options in return, which winds up being a problem for other parts of the cast. What this means is that Bowser and like characters have been designed with extreme polarization to counteract things like this, and then people wonder why when they take a meaty fair to the face and die early. When it's Falco/Fox that have something ridiculous, it's ok because the Melee meta has developed to counter these things with a few niche characters over 13 years and Melee is pure. But god forbid you have to learn how to work around something polarized and strong on a NEW character; that's just sacrilege. While you can deal with Falco lasers and whatnot and Falco isn't as bad as Fox, I think the kind of design the PMDT has been going for LATELY (anti-ledgestall mechanics, anti-laser-camp mechanics) would fit well with giving Falco a small laser recharge time. Like, say he starts with 10 rounds, and they refresh/recharge by one every 3 seconds or so. At worst, it'd take 30 seconds to fully recharge lasers, which I don't think is too much to ask. OR he can have a limited clip and be forced to reload like Snake, but I don't think that'll fly as well. Falco dair just needs to not be brainless. Otherwise he has significant enough drawbacks to where I think he wouldn't pose a threat to overall balance if his ridiculous infinite-laser stuff is toned down.

But that aside, I'm so tired of Fox defenders arguing that Fox is "balanced/fair" because he "gets comboed hard". That kind of happens to EVERY character to an extent, and many of them have worse recoveries, worse neutrals, worse movement, less combos, etc etc. See: Bowser, who not only gets comboed to hell, but you don't even have to be precise to combo him because he's so huge. Anyone who argues Fox's recovery is a drawback is delusional. Also, being technical isn't an excuse for a character being overpowered either, so... Because if we go that route, we can talk about how Lucas isn't overpowered because he's technical/can be played technically. My point is, technicality has little to do with balance. Playing a technical character is a stylistic choice and shouldn't affect how a character is tweaked. I mean, would it be fair to say "it's okay that nobody really wins big tournaments with Bowser because he's easy"? It's just as dumb the other way around.

So again, no, Melee top tiers absolutely do not need to be untouchable, but I think the only problems right now are spacies. But this is in a 3.02 environment, so... I'm waiting for 3.5 to say anything more.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Spoiler: Quote

This is getting absurb. Why on Earth are we discussing nerfing Melee top tiers (MORE) when they aren't even winning/making top 8 at nationals? They aren't even good in PM and the PM community STILL wants them nerfed. Every time I play PM, I'm struck by how hilariously bad spacies, Marth, Sheik, Puff, and Peach are. They suck. I feel as though (and have said as much) the Melee top tiers are discriminated against in PM. If you were good in Melee, you aren't ALLOWED to be good in PM. The Devs seem like they are against any of the Melee top 8 being good at all. As it stands, the only one viable to compete against any of the good PM characters is Fox, and even he can't really hold up. If the PM top tier gets some reasonable nerfs, Fox and Falco will still be s**t compared to other good PM characters; they will still have absurd matchups, characters will have insane punishes on them, and characters will still remain at an awkward combo weight that doesn't allow for much follow ups. Melee top tiers in general have some of the worst recoveries in the game, and even the ones that do have decent recoveries are abysmal otherwise. Nerfing melee top tiers again would just ensure that they are never viable in any tournament setting again for the rest of PM's life. That does seem like what all the PM Devs and fans want, though, so I guess you should stop hiding behind "overall balance" as your excuse and just remove them from the game.

Toxic elements are toxic, regardless of how good or bad a character is.

As a made-up example, let's say that DK Cargo Hold had a glitch to it where certain characters couldn't break out of it as fast as other characters. This theoretical DK turns out to actually be very low on the tier list, but because of this glitch, he manages to skyrocket himself as one of the game's top-tier threats due to the glitch somehow affecting most of the other characters in top tier. Such as, say, Mewtwo/Lucas/Ivysaur/etc. And yet the character itself is still bad, and would be hard-countered by another top-tier character such as Pit. So in other words, DK not only becomes a polarizing character, but he also becomes reliant on a single/few moves or strategies in order to keep his place in top-tier. Which is, to put it bluntly, a skill, move, or strategy that takes little to no thought in order to be effective.

This is why Sonic 2.5 (?) was changed. Not because of how good it made him in relation to the spacies, but because his spindashing shenanigans were brainless in execution, and yet they were highly successful in practice. This is what is known as a toxic element. It promotes mashing the right button at the right time as opposed to having any depth in forethought in regards to what a player is doing.

And regardless of the character, and regardless of how good or bad they are, toxic elements must be removed for the sake of balance. And no single character is exempt or is an exception to this rule. This also applies to both Fox and Falco, and how they currently are in PM.

Once toxic elements are removed however, then there can be balance changes to help them stand up against the rest of the cast. However, people also need to remember something else: Just because Fox and Falco were top tier in Melee, doesn't mean that they should absolutely be top tier in PM. Only that they play relatively similar/the same in PM in comparison to how they play in Melee. Even if nerfs are included, where they end up on the tier list doesn't really matter so long as their toolkit is fundamentally the same and works like how it used to.

It is up to the players themselves to adapt to how the metagame changes over time, even if Fox/Falco aren't the cream of the crop like they used to be. That is not to say that they can't be, however, as the PM newcomers are also not exempt/exceptions to the rule of being changed for the sake of balance and removing toxic elements.

 

[leekslap]

2 viable moves vs 5 viable moves. Regardless of whether or not Falcon is decent in Project M, does not detract from what makes him so linear and limited. If you want to play the comparison game, compare Falcon to one of PM's high tier characters and determine which of the two has more variety.

For the hell of it, I'll compare Mario to Falcon, including moves that have value when it comes to stage play only.
Uair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Nair, Jab, Utilt, Dtilt, Fireball, Down Throw, Up throw, Down Smash, Up Smash, Forward Smash. That doesn't include Cape for off stage gimping/reflecting/recovery, Mario Tornado for recovery, or Super Jump Punch. That's still 14 moves generally used compared to 5.

Whether or not Falcon needs all those moves to be a viable threat is not my point overall though, just that he's limited when compared to others.
But why not compare him to a lower tiered character that I also like and keep the comparisons going. Let's use Donkey Kong.
Uair, Nair, Bair, Fair, Giant Punch, Ground Slap, Cargo throw Up, Forward/Backward, Utilt, Dtilt, Jab, and Spinning Kong OOS. That's 12 moves generally used on stage.

Does Falcon seem a little limited now in comparison? (I may have missed a few commonly used moves, in which case, someone let me know.)

Yeah I agree, but regardless of being limited, Falcon is my hero. His dash dance is big, his knee kills at 30%, his combos are great, his throws are great, his range is good, he can techchase REALLY well, he's overall very fast and mobile, and he's fun as fun can be.

 

[leekslap]

Toxic elements are toxic, regardless of how good or bad a character is.

As a made-up example, let's say that DK Cargo Hold had a glitch to it where certain characters couldn't break out of it as fast as other characters. This theoretical DK turns out to actually be very low on the tier list, but because of this glitch, he manages to skyrocket himself as one of the game's top-tier threats due to the glitch somehow affecting most of the other characters in top tier. Such as, say, Mewtwo/Lucas/Ivysaur/etc. And yet the character itself is still bad, and would be hard-countered by another top-tier character such as Pit. So in other words, DK not only becomes a polarizing character, but he also becomes reliant on a single/few moves or strategies in order to keep his place in top-tier. Which is, to put it bluntly, a skill, move, or strategy that takes little to no thought in order to be effective.

This is why Sonic 2.5 (?) was changed. Not because of how good it made him in relation to the spacies, but because his spindashing shenanigans were brainless in execution, and yet they were highly successful in practice. This is what is known as a toxic element. It promotes mashing the right button at the right time as opposed to having any depth in forethought in regards to what a player is doing.

And regardless of the character, and regardless of how good or bad they are, toxic elements must be removed for the sake of balance. And no single character is exempt or is an exception to this rule. This also applies to both Fox and Falco, and how they currently are in PM.

Once toxic elements are removed however, then there can be balance changes to help them stand up against the rest of the cast. However, people also need to remember something else: Just because Fox and Falco were top tier in Melee, doesn't mean that they should absolutely be top tier in PM. Only that they play relatively similar/the same in PM in comparison to how they play in Melee. Even if nerfs are included, where they end up on the tier list doesn't really matter so long as their toolkit is fundamentally the same and works like how it used to.

It is up to the players themselves to adapt to how the metagame changes over time, even if Fox/Falco aren't the cream of the crop like they used to be. That is not to say that they can't be, however, as the PM newcomers are also not exempt/exceptions to the rule of being changed for the sake of balance and removing toxic elements.

Dude, I could say the same about Link's boomerang. Link overall is a very underrated character. Makes Fox look like crap with his no bad MU matchup spread.

 

[nimigoha]

Dude, I could say the same about Link's boomerang. Link overall is a very underrated character. Makes Fox look like crap with his no bad MU matchup spread.

If Link's Boomerang isn't nerfed to some capacity in 3.5 I'll be upset.

Also, what's the consensus on the time frame of this thread? Are we talking about 3.02 or 3.5? I'd rather this discussion be in context of how Fox and Falco might not be 'comboed to death by every character boo hoo it's so unfair' in the future.

 

[Fortress]

Just woke up to this thread having like three more pages, so I may as well pitch in my own two cents.

First off, keeping things Maylay for the sake of being Maylay is just ass-backwards bonkers. I don't think anybody at this point in Project M's life who's any good is going to argue against that. Project M is its own game, developed for the players who play it. With that in mind, I think it would help a lot of people in this thread to quit with the mindset of 'change for change's sake is bad', because that's obviously not what's happening here. Project M has always been under development under the assumption that it is a work-in-progress (as somebody (maybe more than one person) mentioned much earlier in this thread), and anything is subject to change. This thread needs to attempt to remain objective within the scope of project M itself, and quit being compared and stacked up to games that are not Project M. The topic is more-or-less 'How can these 8 characters be tuned to more-realistically fit the goals of this game'.

With that in mind, I'd like to throw in my own opinions on how these characters can be fine-tuned to more-realistically fit the overall goals of Project M. With the 3.5 update coming any time now, we should keep in mind that there will be a lot of indirect bonuses and balances to this specific cast of characters, which I will note as best I can here.

Note: I'm not going to be listing all of the characters in detail

1) Fox (People generally want balances, seeing Fox's all-rounder status toned down)

uSmash: One of the more specific things pointed out about Fox in this thread and in general. A very fast and powerful attack that can be combo'd into rather easily, that many players find polarizing in Project M's environment. Besides citing the PAL version of Fox's uSmash, it seems people generally want the move to be slower and weaker, which isn't too much to ask for. Maybe shrink the move or something, too, but that's just my own opinion.

General movement: Fox fits into the fast, powerful, and technical type of character, but it's not unheard of to hear players want to see his speed toned down a little bit. Whether they mean movement speed, attack speed, or whatever isn't clear to me, but my guess would be a little mix of both. Making Fox a little more punishable for just throwing out uSmash every chance he gets as an example. My personal input on Fox's movement would be to reduce the height of his jump very slightly, indirectly making u-Throw > uAir not Fox's go-to kill combo without directly having to penalize uAir itself.

3.5: Fox in this version is going to see a few changes in his game at the edge and offstage which we all know about. Stalling at the ledge will have to be a little more thought out now, and characters may find it easier to recover against him. Conversely, the 3.5 changes so far don't indicate any sort of increased difficulty for a recovering Fox, not that it was needed. Edgeguarding will play a bigger roll in 3.5-onward, so Fox might indirectly have a more difficult time in coming back.

2) Falco (kind of in the same basket as Fox)

Nothing here I can list that I didn't already mention with Fox, barring specific things like uSmash and u-Throw > uAir. I general, I feel like the general tone surrounding Falco is that he's either needing to be less powerful in KB/Damage output outright, or be slower with his attacks to be more punishable in exchange. I have no specific gripes with the character other than strange attacks like d-Tilt and how rewarding it can be for what it is, and I think Falco on-the-whole is a pretty solid character in Project M's environment. Not even top eight in this game, honestly.

3) Jigglypuff (perfect moveset, but needs some utility behind it, needing something in general)

Puff is Meleepuff 100%, which is part of what's hurting her so much in Project M. She's got a wealth of incredible tools that even in Brawl probably couldn't have helped her all that much. It's not so much Project M's doing as it is the general ability from Brawl for the majority of the cast to have a much easier time coming back to the stage, indirectly making Puff's jank weaker against characters it worked fine on before.

Ground game: I don't think Puff was at any point known for her stellar ground game. She has a couple decent attacks on the ground, but nothing that makes being there for long periods of time a solid option. Not that it's a bad thing. Where Fox and Falco find themselves (Falco to a lesser extent) in a jack-of-all-trades category, Puff fits somewhere into the 'aerial ace' archetype of characters. Plenty of options from the air, and solid air control on top of that. One thing that could benefit this character in Project M would be to bolster her ground game such that it transitions more cleanly into her aerial abilities. In general, seeing her faster on the ground (in terms of attack properties) with more combo utility and range could see her as a more powerful character all around.

Rollout: Movement is everything in Smash, and most everybody in PM has gone through some kind of overhaul to let them get around the stage better, and open up more options for them. One major change that could benefit Puff is to see something in the form of a more useful Rollout attack. Making it jump-cancellable, for one, could increase her mixup and movement options. Maybe get rid of/weaken the hitboxes on the attack to make it something she could use to end up behind her opponents and not just shove them away, let her jump cancel the momentum of the Rollout to give her precise control of the space around her. A Rollout with increased utility could be all Puff needs to open up all of her options again and let her keep up in this game.

Those are the only three characters that I have a real opinion on. In terms of how they perform in Project M, I think Sheik is perfectly fine, ditto for Falcon, maybe Peach and the IC's need something (not sure what it would be), and I'm pretty certain that Marth is just fine as-is.

 

[Mystic-]

Dude, I could say the same about Link's boomerang. Link overall is a very underrated character. Makes Fox look like crap with his no bad MU matchup spread.

I mean, I don't think you are going to get many people arguing that Link's rang isn't dumb. Especially Link mains as it polarizes his kit, along with Dthrow to Dair, to mean that he has clear cut best options in many situations. If they nerf rang they could give some other parts of his kit some love and make him a cooler character overall

 

[Mystic-]

*snip*

Dsmash and Fsmash are also good for hard reads. Pretty much all of his moves have uses, but it's just that most aren't applicable to his neutral game. Falcon is a simple character reliant on effective use of mind games, tech reads, spacing, and punish game to compensate for his lack of a strong gimmick, easily gimpable recovery, weak out of shield options, slow tech rolls, etc. IMO Marth, Roy, and Falcon are examples of strong character design and I'm rather interested to get a more coherent argument of how they aren't. When I lose to one of these characters I always learn something new about my weaknesses as a player and I know that I lost to the player, not to the character. That, to me, is good design.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah, Fox is pretty broken in Melee.

OK, now you are just wrong. You wouldn't mind actually EXPLAINING a bit so I have somethin to argue?

I COMPLETELY agree. Being very susceptible to chain grabs, combos, and having a very gimpable recovery are barely flaws. What are you thinking PMDT? #obvioussarcasmisobvious

I like spacies too.

Anyone have these weaknesses with all these strengths they have? No one really does.

Only reason PM hasn't been saturated by them is the design bias making tools just to fight them.

 

[leekslap]

Just woke up to this thread having like three more pages, so I may as well pitch in my own two cents.

First off, keeping things Maylay for the sake of being Maylay is just ***-backwards bonkers. I don't think anybody at this point in Project M's life who's any good is going to argue against that. Project M is its own game, developed for the players who play it. With that in mind, I think it would help a lot of people in this thread to quit with the mindset of 'change for change's sake is bad', because that's obviously not what's happening here. Project M has always been under development under the assumption that it is a work-in-progress (as somebody (maybe more than one person) mentioned much earlier in this thread), and anything is subject to change. This thread needs to attempt to remain objective within the scope of project M itself, and quit being compared and stacked up to games that are not Project M. The topic is more-or-less 'How can these 8 characters be tuned to more-realistically fit the goals of this game'.

With that in mind, I'd like to throw in my own opinions on how these characters can be fine-tuned to more-realistically fit the overall goals of Project M. With the 3.5 update coming any time now, we should keep in mind that there will be a lot of indirect bonuses and balances to this specific cast of characters, which I will note as best I can here.

Note: I'm not going to be listing all of the characters in detail

1) Fox (People generally want balances, seeing Fox's all-rounder status toned down)

uSmash: One of the more specific things pointed out about Fox in this thread and in general. A very fast and powerful attack that can be combo'd into rather easily, that many players find polarizing in Project M's environment. Besides citing the PAL version of Fox's uSmash, it seems people generally want the move to be slower and weaker, which isn't too much to ask for. Maybe shrink the move or something, too, but that's just my own opinion.

General movement: Fox fits into the fast, powerful, and technical type of character, but it's not unheard of to hear players want to see his speed toned down a little bit. Whether they mean movement speed, attack speed, or whatever isn't clear to me, but my guess would be a little mix of both. Making Fox a little more punishable for just throwing out uSmash every chance he gets as an example. My personal input on Fox's movement would be to reduce the height of his jump very slightly, indirectly making u-Throw > uAir not Fox's go-to kill combo without directly having to penalize uAir itself.

3.5: Fox in this version is going to see a few changes in his game at the edge and offstage which we all know about. Stalling at the ledge will have to be a little more thought out now, and characters may find it easier to recover against him. Conversely, the 3.5 changes so far don't indicate any sort of increased difficulty for a recovering Fox, not that it was needed. Edgeguarding will play a bigger roll in 3.5-onward, so Fox might indirectly have a more difficult time in coming back.

2) Falco (kind of in the same basket as Fox)

Nothing here I can list that I didn't already mention with Fox, barring specific things like uSmash and u-Throw > uAir. I general, I feel like the general tone surrounding Falco is that he's either needing to be less powerful in KB/Damage output outright, or be slower with his attacks to be more punishable in exchange. I have no specific gripes with the character other than strange attacks like d-Tilt and how rewarding it can be for what it is, and I think Falco on-the-whole is a pretty solid character in Project M's environment. Not even top eight in this game, honestly.

3) Jigglypuff (perfect moveset, but needs some utility behind it, needing something in general)

Puff is Meleepuff 100%, which is part of what's hurting her so much in Project M. She's got a wealth of incredible tools that even in Brawl probably couldn't have helped her all that much. It's not so much Project M's doing as it is the general ability from Brawl for the majority of the cast to have a much easier time coming back to the stage, indirectly making Puff's jank weaker against characters it worked fine on before.

Ground game: I don't think Puff was at any point known for her stellar ground game. She has a couple decent attacks on the ground, but nothing that makes being there for long periods of time a solid option. Not that it's a bad thing. Where Fox and Falco find themselves (Falco to a lesser extent) in a jack-of-all-trades category, Puff fits somewhere into the 'aerial ace' archetype of characters. Plenty of options from the air, and solid air control on top of that. One thing that could benefit this character in Project M would be to bolster her ground game such that it transitions more cleanly into her aerial abilities. In general, seeing her faster on the ground (in terms of attack properties) with more combo utility and range could see her as a more powerful character all around.

Rollout: Movement is everything in Smash, and most everybody in PM has gone through some kind of overhaul to let them get around the stage better, and open up more options for them. One major change that could benefit Puff is to see something in the form of a more useful Rollout attack. Making it jump-cancellable, for one, could increase her mixup and movement options. Maybe get rid of/weaken the hitboxes on the attack to make it something she could use to end up behind her opponents and not just shove them away, let her jump cancel the momentum of the Rollout to give her precise control of the space around her. A Rollout with increased utility could be all Puff needs to open up all of her options again and let her keep up in this game.

Those are the only three characters that I have a real opinion on. In terms of how they perform in Project M, I think Sheik is perfectly fine, ditto for Falcon, maybe Peach and the IC's need something (not sure what it would be), and I'm pretty certain that Marth is just fine as-is.

Did you even read anything I said?

 

[leekslap]

Anyone have these weaknesses with all these strengths they have? No one really does.

Only reason PM hasn't been saturated by them is the design bias making tools just to fight them.

Zelda, Ness, Snake, etc. These characters have just as polarizing pros and cons with the same potential as Fox. Fox has like a 13 year head start!

 

[Joe73191]

This is getting absurb. Why on Earth are we discussing nerfing Melee top tiers (MORE) when they aren't even winning/making top 8 at nationals? They aren't even good in PM and the PM community STILL wants them nerfed. Every time I play PM, I'm struck by how hilariously bad spacies, Marth, Sheik, Puff, and Peach are. They suck. I feel as though (and have said as much) the Melee top tiers are discriminated against in PM. If you were good in Melee, you aren't ALLOWED to be good in PM. The Devs seem like they are against any of the Melee top 8 being good at all. As it stands, the only one viable to compete against any of the good PM characters is Fox, and even he can't really hold up. If the PM top tier gets some reasonable nerfs, Fox and Falco will still be s**t compared to other good PM characters; they will still have absurd matchups, characters will have insane punishes on them, and characters will still remain at an awkward combo weight that doesn't allow for much follow ups. Melee top tiers in general have some of the worst recoveries in the game, and even the ones that do have decent recoveries are abysmal otherwise. Nerfing melee top tiers again would just ensure that they are never viable in any tournament setting again for the rest of PM's life. That does seem like what all the PM Devs and fans want, though, so I guess you should stop hiding behind "overall balance" as your excuse and just remove them from the game.

THANK YOU! Exactly! Melee top tiers are not even top tier in PM and we are talking about nerfing them. This is anti-melee bias if I have ever seen it. There are way too many Melee haters. The top tier characters in PM like Pit, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Link and Ivysaur should be looked at before even considering mentioning Melee top tiers.

 

[nimigoha]

THANK YOU! Exactly! Melee top tiers are not even top tier in PM and we are talking about nerfing them. This is anti-melee bias if I have ever seen it. There are way too many Melee haters. The top tier characters in PM like Pit, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Link and Ivysaur should be looked at before even considering mentioning Melee top tiers.

And they are getting looked at. It's widely believed that Pit, Mewtwo, and Diddy, among other characters, are more broken than Fox.

We are talking about nerfing Fox, with the working assumption that other top characters are also getting nerfed, which they are.

This is not a personal attack on Fox. This is rejecting the idea that Fox is well balanced and that everything should be based around him. This is about what's best for the game.