Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[nimigoha]

What stages do you need when there are already a butt tonne?

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE POKEFLOATS ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

 

[Narpas_sword]

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE POKEFLOATS ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Having played on Pokefloats for a tourney match recently (gentlemen's agreement, between good mates for a laugh)
I totally agree.

BUt when melee people want PM to be more Melee-like, they tend to want it more like their competition version of the game.

 

[nimigoha]

The further PM gets away from Melee the less popular it becomes.

Maybe to Melee players but it's almost like people play PM characters other than top Melee characters

Bringing back Melee top tiers to how they were in Melee is what drove many people to PM in the first place. Mess with that and people will go back to Melee.

People who play PM because they want it to be exactly the same as Melee should just play Melee

Making everyone else on the level of Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, Shiek, Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon while keeping those characters as close the their Melee counterparts as possible should be what PM strives for.

According to you. According to the PMDT they want a balanced game.

Peach and Captain Falcon are perfect the way they are. Even Fox and Falcon are perfect the way they are (Though they could use their first frame shine invincibility back and removing the decay on laser damage). Marth is pretty good, in fact he too would be perfect if his Dancing Blade wasn't so different from how it was in Melee. Shiek should get the hurtboxes back on her needles and their Melee properties should return in full glory.

Why are you even wasting your time on PM if it's clear that all you want is a direct copy of Melee top tiers? Just play Melee, you're allowed to do both

That PM has so many great stages and all the Brawl characters and more is great! In fact its AWESOME! However if I am using Fox or Marth and my friend is using Falco or Jigglypuff and we are playing on Dreamland or Fountain of Dreams or Final Destination or Yoshi's Story the match should be the same as if we were playing Melee.

According to you

The whole Melee/PM thing really pisses me off.

Melee players disliked Brawl because of how different it was from Melee.

Now we have a dedicated team of 100+ people specifically tailoring a game for you and you still ***** about how it's not a direct copy of Melee. It has the same physics, the Melee top tiers are almost identical, it strives for roster-wide balance, it adds mountains of user-requested content and new modes, and you still throw a fit.

PM was initially made for Melee players who didn't like Brawl physics.

PM is now made for PM players. If you don't like it, go back to Melee. We'll try to hold back the tears.

 

[Joe73191]

The whole Melee/PM thing really pisses me off.

Melee players disliked Brawl because of how different it was from Melee.

Now we have a dedicated team of 100+ people specifically tailoring a game for you and you still ***** about how it's not a direct copy of Melee. It has the same physics, the Melee top tiers are almost identical, it strives for roster-wide balance, it adds mountains of user-requested content and new modes, and you still throw a fit.

PM was initially made for Melee players who didn't like Brawl physics.

PM is now made for PM players. If you don't like it, go back to Melee. We'll try to hold back the tears.

I love Project M. As it is, the "Melee Top Tiers" are fine the way they are in 3.0.2 but the point of this thread is talking about changing those characters. I am expressing a desire to keep the "Melee Top Tiers" the way they are, or to change them closer to Melee not further. I am not for changing them to be FURTHER from Melee. They are fine the way they are. Why do we need to change them? We don't! We don't need to change them at all. They are fine. Change for the sake of change just because you don't like Melee or Melee players is not going to help PM. It can and will only hurt it.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I love Project M. As it is, the "Melee Top Tiers" are fine the way they are in 3.0.2 but the point of this thread is talking about changing those characters. I am expressing a desire to keep the "Melee Top Tiers" the way they are, or to change them closer to Melee not further. I am not for changing them to be FURTHER from Melee. They are fine the way they are. Why do we need to change them? We don't! We don't need to change them at all. They are fine. Change for the sake of change just because you don't like Melee or Melee players is not going to help PM. It can and will only hurt it.

We need to bring all the top tiers down a peg, because as stated in the most recent blogpost, there's a glut of characters with way too many, too powerful options. The reason that the top tier became as strong as they are in the first place was to deal with Melee's ridiculous top tier. Therefore, to achieve reasonable balance (with actually limited options for the entire cast), some of Melee's strongest characters require adjustments.

 

[nimigoha]

We need to bring all the top tiers down a peg, because as stated in the most recent blogpost, there's a glut of characters with way too many, too powerful options. The reason that the top tier became as strong as they are in the first place was to deal with Melee's ridiculous top tier. Therefore, to achieve reasonable balance (with actually limited options for the entire cast), some of Melee's strongest characters require adjustments.

Yes. This is so true.

In Melee, very few characters had the tools to deal with the top tier characters. So in PM they gave more people buffs while keeping top tiers virtually the same, in an attempt to balance the cast.

It worked to an extent, but some characters got tools that were too good, and now we kinda have a Melee imbalance emerging as people get even better with current PM 'top tiers' like Pit and Mewtwo.

So instead of giving every character broken tools, it looks like they're taking really powerful things away from characters. If we keep buffing everyone we'll just end up with Brawl Minus.

I'm all for it.

 

[Joe73191]

People seem to make it seem "If you want Melee characters to stay the same, you only want to play Melee and will never be happy unless it is a 1:1 copy of Melee." This is trash hyperbole. Nothing more. I'm saying I love what they did with practically EVERY CHARACTER! I love the PM characters, I love what they did with brawl characters, I love the buffs to Melee lower tiers and I LOVE that the Melee top tiers stayed the same (relatively). But this talk of changing that scares me. I don't know how much I will actually want to play PM if they change too much. PM was one of the things that got me into the competitive scene for Melee and Project M. Seeing it changed saddens me. If this ends up ruining one of my favorite games of all time for me, (Project M is my favorite game of all time along with Melee) I'll be left with only one choice, to have but one game left to play. I don't want that. So you better be sure I'm gonna express my view if it means even a 1% chance to keep it the way I have loved it this past great year.

 

[GP&B]

Dude, PM has always operated under being a work-in-progress. One of the primary aims is a balanced cast and Fox has no place being immune to changes while other top tiers get toned down. That's all there is to it.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

People seem to make it seem "If you want Melee characters to stay the same, you only want to play Melee and will never be happy unless it is a 1:1 copy of Melee." This is trash hyperbole. Nothing more. I'm saying I love what they did with practically EVERY CHARACTER! I love the PM characters, I love what they did with brawl characters, I love the buffs to Melee lower tiers and I LOVE that the Melee top tiers stayed the same (relatively). But this talk of changing that scares me. I don't know how much I will actually want to play PM if they change too much. PM was one of the things that got me into the competitive scene for Melee and Project M. Seeing it changed saddens me. If this ends up ruining one of my favorite games of all time for me, (Project M is my favorite game of all time along with Melee) I'll be left with only one choice, to have but one game left to play. I don't want that. So you better be sure I'm gonna express my view if it means even a 1% chance to keep it the way I have loved it this past great year.

The problem isn't that people want Melee characters to stay the same, it's that they cry bloody murder if they're even considered for tweaks that might take away from the dominance that they had in Melee.

 

[Kankato]

Can we veer away from another Melee vs Project M argument? This thread has been pretty civil and objective so far. Let's keep the conversation about the characters and not the communities.

 

[Joe73191]

I'm sooooo stupid. I just remembered something. You can save character files from former versions than replace the newer versions with older ones. If I don't like a change in a character, than in my personal PM I will just replace the new one with the 3.0.2 version. Everyone wins. Simple solution. Everyone can have what they want.

 

[Kankato]

I'm sooooo stupid. I just remembered something. You can save character files from former versions than replace the newer versions with older ones. If I don't like a change in a character, than in my personal PM I will just replace the new one with the 3.0.2 version. Everyone wins. Simple solution. Everyone can have what they want.

Absolutely not. That would split the PM community among several different versions and hurt everyone in the long run.

 

[GP&B]

If he's not playing his version in a tournament, he can do that. Otherwise yeah, that's an instant DQ.

 

[kaizo13]

The problem isn't that people want Melee characters to stay the same, it's that they cry bloody murder if they're even considered for tweaks that might take away from the dominance that they had in Melee.

they dominated in Melee...they are not dominating the game in PM, and that's a fact. Yes they still have most of their amazing tools from Melee, but the cast if far more prepared for them in this game.

and listen, i'm not completely against changes to the top tiers as long as it doesn't change the "feel" of the character.

i would be ok with fox u-smash killing 10-15% later, but please...let the new PM characters settle in before making any more unnecessary changes to the top tiers. How can you compare their viability when the newcomers are constantly changing and are very underdeveloped?

if it wasn't for Professor Pro and Rolex, Snake would still be considered bottom 10. Characters need time to grow, and i feel a lot of you aren't willing to give them that time and just want instant results and for them to be able to compete with spacies. Take it slow...as time passes and we can clearly see how each character stacks up, then we can give those in need small buffs. That would be the best way to reach the desired balance imo.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I'm sooooo stupid. I just remembered something. You can save character files from former versions than replace the newer versions with older ones. If I don't like a change in a character, than in my personal PM I will just replace the new one with the 3.0.2 version. Everyone wins. Simple solution. Everyone can have what they want.

Sure, that works. Though I'm fairly sure that it doesn't work perfectly if you just swap out character files, since I think the codes file has something to do with minute character changes.

In any case, if you'd rather not play Project M, feel free to make "your own" game.

they dominated in Melee...they are not dominating the game in PM, and that's a fact. Yes they still have most of their amazing tools from Melee, but the cast if far more prepared for them in this game.

and listen, i'm not completely against changes to the top tiers as long as it doesn't change the "feel" of the character.

i would be ok with fox u-smash killing 10-15% later, but please...let the new PM characters settle in before making any more unnecessary changes to the top tiers. How can you compare their viability when the newcomers are constantly changing and are underdeveloped??

I said dominance in Melee. If they nerf all the characters that approached the spacies (Like many want and assume is going to happen), and just leave them alone, chances are that the tiers will start more resembling Melee's and then they would recover their dominance more likely than not.

I'm fairly sure no one wants to change how they play, just adjust some of their more stupid tools that allow them to play whatever game they like while they run around their opponents pew pewing and beating them to death.

 

[Joe73191]

Absolutely not. That would split the PM community among several different versions and hurt everyone in the long run.

As I said, in "My personal PM". Similarly some people have the ganondorf sword mod in their PM. It is not for tourney's but for fun. I can have 3.0.2 characters in my v3.5, that is my choice. If changing Melee top tiers makes tourney attendance numbers drop oh well.

 

[DrinkingFood]

His only losing matchups are Mewtwo and Pit.

And ROB


Yes I know I'm replying to a week old post, I haven't had the patience yet to go through 200 posts posted by 99% scrubs. Very few of you really know what you are talking about, different levels of logic are flying around everywhere and none of them are adequate.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The biggest issue with this thread is people are arguing about different things, so lets establish a baseline, but before that, let me preface my post on the topic of the apparent schism between "melee players", "brawl players", "PM players", and everything in between.

There are many different people who play PM. Since PM is "made by the community", people are free to voice their opinions on where they believe the game should be headed. The problem is there are essentially 3 major groups who all tend to share different opinions on where the game should go. Those who trace their origins back to melee and want to play both now tend to favor the idea of balancing the cast "up" to the melee top tiers. Those who came in during the brawl era, well, I don't know what they would want, I think their opinions are more scattered and inconsistent, if you will. Finally, there are people are trace their roots to PM (I would consider myself in this group). Obviouslly, there are other pm players, just this group gets their roots from the game. A common opinion among these players is that melee top tiers could use some adjustments for the better of the game as a whole. Its important to realize where everyone comes from to understand why everyone thinks the way they think.

Now that we got that out of the way, to the main part of my post:

1) This thread is about whether melee top tiers should be immune to changes if it were deemed a problem with balance.

I personally do not know enough to make any educated claims (I wish more people would have this attitude...), so this part is important. Before we even get into nerfing this or nerfing that, we should first argue about this. That means no taking about "Fox is OP because laser this and shine that...". It is important to discuss whether changes should be made to melee top tiers if, not that he is a problem. So in the event that the PMDT determines that certain melee characters should change for the sake of balance, is it in their best interest to change. Results may vary on this depending on which "group" you ask.

2) Is the approach of buffing everyone up to compare with melee top tiers the best idea?

Again, results may vary. This is a corollary to the previous question. In order to answer this, you would need to determine whether "broken" characters in past versions were caused because the PMDT is trying to make them comparable to melee top tiers. If you believe yes to that, your response is probably to balance the game more towards the peach/falcon area of the tier list touching up of certain attributes.

3) If you want 1:1 melee characters, go back to melee! PM is better without you.

This is more of a lack of understanding between the 2 "factions", if you will. A common attitude towards people who are on the pm boards, but want melee characters to be exactly the same, is to yell at them to go back to melee. As I established in the beginning, PM players come in many different forms and it makes no sense to say that they shouldn't have a say in PM's development just because they like melee too. On the flipside, I do not believe melee top tiers should go untouched just because melee players make up too much of the user base of PM to afford to lose. This is my personal opinion though. Overall, the lack of empathy on both sides is a little frustrating.

Over all, PM is made for everyone, so everyone's opinion should be considered. However, PM is also trying to balance the game, so if the PMDT thinks its best for changes, I don't think user base worries should deter that. I would also like to believe that the "Trimming the Fat" blog post hints that they are considering making more characters in line with Captain Falcon and Peach from melee.

One last thing. I would like to reiterate, I am no expert on smash, not even close. So these are my humble opinions. If you find anything blatantly wrong, just tell me in a civil manner I and I will remember for next time.

 

[DrinkingFood]

1: No
They aren't immune any more than any other character is, the issue is whether or mot the present a balance problem.

2: No
That's how we got where we are now. Every character having strengths to compete with them as they are now (similar to their Melee level) makes learning each individual matchup much more difficult for players than it was for in Melee. Saltiness levels of these players being discouraged isn't relevant and isn't anything more than an ad hominem.

Why was that so hard?

 

[GP&B]

1: No
They aren't immune any more than any other character is, the issue is whether or not the present a balance problem.

What I've been trying to say in way, way, way, way less words. Just because no one is immune to changes doesn't mean everyone is going to get changes.

 

[4tlas]

I have said that people who want Melee top tiers to be identical to Melee should go play Melee, but that wasn't meant to be a "these people are not worthy" or "well their opinions shouldn't matter". One of the reasons for saying the Melee tops should be immune to changes is that it is good design to make them identical to Melee. Another reason is that the arguer would enjoy such a thing. The latter is perfectly acceptable opinion, and, as this game is meant to be made for the community, should be taken into account. But it should not be given any more weight than any other opinion. When I say Melee players can go play Melee, what I am saying is that they are part of the community as long as they want to play the game, and if so they should push for what they want. But wanting the game to be Melee is not a logical argument in favor of doing so. And this is not a place to argue whether you would like Melee top tiers to stay the same or not, this is a place to argue whether they objectively should.

The former (whether Melee tops are good design) is something we can debate, and is how we got on the topic of design. So far, I have yet to see anyone provide any logical reasoning for why Melee top tiers were well designed characters, just a lot of impassioned claims. Can someone provide such an argument, even if as Devil's Advocate? I'd like to hear it. Then maybe we can debate something other than "Well Melee is the best" vs. "No, Melee should stay in Melee".

 

[Rhubarbo]

The former (whether Melee tops are good design) is something we can debate, and is how we got on the topic of design. So far, I have yet to see anyone provide any logical reasoning for why Melee top tiers were well designed characters, just a lot of impassioned claims. Can someone provide such an argument, even if as Devil's Advocate? I'd like to hear it. Then maybe we can debate something other than "Well Melee is the best" vs. "No, Melee should stay in Melee".

I don't venture to speak on behalf of Melee purists, but I'll try to accurately play the devil's advocate:

Fox, although not necessarily well designed (as in intentionally), plays very well in practice. Simply put, Fox is fun to control. His fast falling speed and quick aerials feel like the epitome of whatever Smash has to offer. Fox's movement is technically demanding, rapid, and spectacular. Toning Fox down could strip the Melee engine of the very best it has to offer. This same principle applies to the rest of Melee's top 8 minus Jigglypuff and the Ice Climbers.

See, Melee fans may think they like Melee for its engine, but that's a questionable conclusion. Instead, Melee fans might like how Melee's best characters came together with its engine. In other words, if Melee were outright stripped of it's top 8 characters, the rest of the cast couldn't promote an equally entertaining meta.

Moreover, Fox's mastery over several play styles gives Fox players the ability to adapt on the fly. Fox's deep kit makes him relatively appealing compared to other characters that have narrower skill sets (e.g. Jigglypuff.)

To wrap it up, Fox and his other three top tier acolytes shouldn't be changed because they are what makes the Melee engine fun. They have proven to keep competitive and inquisitive players captivated for over a decade, so why should they be changed now? Making other characters viable should be an ancillary endavour, done to keep the game sharp around the edges. Lastly, if any of these ancillary characters become too strong (e.g. Lucas and Mewtwo), they should be nerfed to levels at least slightly below Melee's top tier characters.

 

[4tlas]

I don't venture to speak on behalf of Melee purists, but I'll try to accurately play the devil's advocate:

Fox, although not necessarily well designed (as in intentionally), plays very well in practice. Simply put, Fox is fun to control. His fast falling speed and quick aerials feel like the epitome of whatever Smash has to offer. Fox's movement is technically demanding, rapid, and spectacular. Toning Fox down could strip the Melee engine of the very best it has to offer. This same principle applies to the rest of Melee's top 8 minus Jigglypuff and the Ice Climbers.

See, Melee fans may think they like Melee for its engine, but that's a questionable conclusion. Instead, Melee fans might like how Melee's best characters came together with its engine. In other words, if Melee were outright stripped of it's top 8 characters, the rest of the cast couldn't promote an equally entertaining meta.

Moreover, Fox's mastery over several play styles gives Fox players the ability to adapt on the fly. Fox's deep kit makes him relatively appealing compared to other characters that have narrower skill sets (e.g. Jigglypuff.)

To wrap it up, Fox and his other three top tier acolytes shouldn't be changed because they are what makes the Melee engine fun. They have proven to keep competitive and inquisitive players captivated for over a decade, so why should they be changed now? Making other characters viable should be an ancillary endavour, done to keep the game sharp around the edges. Lastly, if any of these ancillary characters become too strong (e.g. Lucas and Mewtwo), they should be nerfed to levels at least slightly below Melee's top tier characters.

I think you did a pretty good job of laying most of the things out. I don't think I can think of anything else right now. I'll not rebut those points until some time has passed for someone to have a chance to elaborate on them. Thanks for trying to lay the argument out for me (and everyone ofc).

 

[MTL Kyle]

I think this discussion is really dumb.

I know Fox seems unbeatable if you play TAS and that Falco has an unparalleled neutral game, that Marth can beat every single character if played perfectly and **** Ice Climbers and their punishes

But they can all beat each other. If anything I think the game should be balanced in this environment.

 

[Joe73191]

One of the reasons for saying the Melee tops should be immune to changes is that it is good design to make them identical to Melee. Another reason is that the arguer would enjoy such a thing. The latter is perfectly acceptable opinion, and, as this game is meant to be made for the community, should be taken into account. But it should not be given any more weight than any other opinion.

Considering the Melee top 8 has been enjoyed for 13 years and the tournament numbers are higher than ever I don't think it is even contraversial to say most people would enjoy the top 8 staying the same more than if they were changed. Most people obviously see them as fun to play as is. I think also that this fact alone shows how well designed the characters are for this to be the case.

However if we want to talk about why they are well designed that is fine. Fox and Falco both are very distinct from one another in play style despite having moves that look similar. However both are extremely punishable. When they get hit (especially off stage) they are very easy to combo. Yes they area insane in neutral, have a variety of tools and have many ways to play them and kill with them. However many people say they are the most fun to play because of how creative you can be with them. The mark of a good character (this applies to almost every character in the melee top 8 which is why melee is so popular.) is that even if several different people play the same character it will look very different depending on who is playing them. Being able to watch a character and know who is playing just by the characters movement is something that is very rare and very unique about Melee, especially in the top 8 or so characters.

Marth similarly has a great set of moves and has a unique skill rewarding mechanic, the tipper. Marth has one incredible stage (FD) but can also compete very well on any other stage. Marth has a difficult time getting back on stage and is predictable, but his edge guard and spike make him both entertaining to watch and satisfying to play. Marth has set-ups and kills which require precise spacing and timing and are all % and knock back dependent on his moves. Messing with his moves even a little could take away potential combos, or attack strings that are very awesome to see.

Peach and Captain Falcon both were top tier but had a difficult time competing with the other top 5 or so characters. (Except Armada, he is just unique.) Project M took their tools, kept their play style the same and improved on already great design. With minor little tweaks, Project M managed to make them EVEN BETTER than in Melee. The artist has to know when to put the pen down though, for fear of over doing a good thing. Caution should be taken on tweaking these characters even more.

Shiek is the only case in PM where she is too different from her original counter part and it has hurt her and people who like playing her. While I understand the need to slightly nerf down throw and PM did a good job in that department, making it between PAL and NTSC down throw angels. They also nerfed her needles which was not necessary. To top it off the weakened the kill power on forward smash. Not many people use forward smash, it is almost never the best option so this didnt hurt her much, however it is still strange to take a move not often used for being to easily punished and having better options and to actually weaken it. Shiek as great edge guards and can switch from being a very ledge defensive character to a very neutral aggressive character very well. Her recovery is unique and while it does not give the kind of range seen in much the rest of the cast it is still hard to edge guard her to an extent. It is sometimes predictable and ledgehogging her is easy but despite that she can go very deep for kills and edge guards and still make it back. The depth with which she can go and come back with her recovery is always surprising making her always fun to watch.

I'm not saying they should be IMMUNE to changes, after all the changes done to Captain Falcon and Peach were good. However I am saying that caution should be taken. These characters are fun to play and changing them too much is a kin to just flat out removing them from the game. If you change them too much you might as well be taking them out because then I am no longer playing that character, but a character that is similar to the one I want to play. I mean if I want to play one of the above characters, I am thinking of how they were in Melee. If I feel that the character is too different from how it was in Melee well I will just have to pop in Melee instead. Which is not what I or PM people want. I and other PM people do not want PM numbers to drop. We love PM and want to continue to see it grow, but if you effectively remove these characters by changing them too much then some people have no choice but to turn off PM and turn on Melee. By changing the above characters tourney entrants could drop. People who like and want to play those characters want to play them as they were and are now. We don't want to see PM tourney numbers wane and suffer as a result.

 

[RomeDogg]

It's nice to see passion for Melee, I'm glad you shared your thoughts. But we're all passionate about Melee, here. The expectation I and many others hold is that Project M should be a better version of Melee. If this can be done by changing Melee's top tiers, I would not object.

Would you not like it if there were more options in the game? Would you not want more viable characters, more viable play styles, and hell, even more viable stages? If the price for this is changing 1, 2, 3, or 4 characters, doesn't that seem like a good bargain?

Remember, changing Fox or Falco doesn't mean either would be taken out of the game.

You presented that in a very respectable way and I am definitely on the same page that I too want Project M to be a better version of Melee and I am glad that we are all passionate about Melee. Also I should have looked at it from more angles instead of getting defensive about Melee aspects right off the bat. When looking at the big picture instead of certain aspects it brings me a new light when looking at it. So yeah I can find an acceptance point there as long as the PM team even with nerfs or tweaks can still maintain and stay true to those Top Teirs playstyles. Out of 23 returning vets I suppose that nerfs to 4 debatably over powered characters isn't to much to ask for. I mean logically being only 17% of the Melee characters getting the nerf bat should be fine and I will try it out and give it time if they do change them before making a definitive decision.

Only problem I ever had with what you said was that you said if Fox was changed, you would quit and go back to Melee, which makes it seem like you don't really care about this game much at all. No character should be immune from alteration, though with any hope, the PMDT wouldn't make him incapable of playing in a way similar to Melee.

They changed Fox once by removing invincibility on his reflector I felt that was fair because of the speed of it, it should be able to be beaten or trade. They also changed laser damage. Fox can go in, he doesn't need to laser camp to be successful or to do fair in bad match ups. So yeah they changed him once and I did accept it. I guess depending on the extent of the nerfs/tweaks will determine what I feel about it so I will give it a chance and time to feel out the situation first. Though if they stay true to his Melee style that will be beneficial on my opinion if they change them.

 

[MLGF]

I swear, if PM gave the spacies PAL nerfs people who are complaining would just look silly..
Europe still makes those characters work fine, how could you not think that we'd all look stupid complaining about things that have proven to barely hurt the position of the spacies?

 

[RomeDogg]

Dude, can you change your font colour? it's near impossible to read on dark background...

anyway.

What would pichu seriously offer? and Young link?

What stages do you need when there are already a butt tonne?

First off in Melee Sakurai made Pichu receive more hitstun then the rest of the cast in his attempt to make Pichu terrible or a "joke character" on top of the self damage and light weight etc. So giving him a normal amount of hitstun after he gets hit would be a significant buff. Also Pichu is one of the fastest Melee characters with the least amount of lag on some of his aerials in Melee. Smash is a fast paced game and generally fast characters fair better then slow ones. A buffed Pichu with more hitstun/knockback on electric attacks could be a start and maybe a slight tail length increase for the sake of more reach in attacks. Also maybe shrinking his head slightly because its a huge hurtbox. Also he has room for some move alteration like Ganondorf and the changes to Roy. Like maybe they could change his Side-B to something else or edit it. Or they could change some of his aerials or tilts to buff him and somewhat branch him from Pikachu and make him better. Also because he is a vet and Melee lovers like myself would like to see him and Young Link back I mean hell even Brawl Minus brought Pichu back and buffed the **** out of him without listening to the bias of players who think vets shouldn't return based around the fact they don't care about the character when others do. An arguement I heard several times with multiple variations against the inclusion of Mewtwo before he returned went as follows.
-We already have Lucario he is a better version of Mewtwo we don't need him he sucks.
-If you want Mewtwo play Melee.
-We have to many Pokemon characters so Mewtwo shouldn't return.
These arguments are currently used against Pichu but we are forced to only vote for him when we didn't have to for Mewtwo they just brought him back. Thats character bias and fan favoritism.

Young Link is a more important character addition to me because I personally love Link and Young Link in Melee. Link didn't turn out to be a character I would want to play in Project M because of his rang/bomb changes. It took away his projectile manipulation set ups he had in Melee. Therefore removing a playstyle that Aniki shined in. Also I hate Toon Link as a character so it feels like my character is no longer in the game. Young Links return may give me a character I can truly love everything about when maining him. Though I think they should also revert several Toon Link moves back to his Brawl incarnation and tweak him in other ways to make him more unique in an individual way while bring Young Link back to his Melee self with buffs/tweaks. Like maybe making Toon Links nair back into a sword move. Like to really think about it Toon Link is decloned from Link in this game already. Having Young Link back as much of a clone as Marth and Roy are of eachother would be sick. Seeing how some tweaks further decloned Roy. Also yeah changing some Toonlink moves that were taken from link would be good for this situation. Also arguements used against Young Links return are as follows.
-there are already 2 Links we don't need 3.(We have Fox, Falco, Wolf. All 3 are based on a fox playstyle and move set. so look 3 foxes, once again character bias. Though it could go a step further we also have Lucas damn near a fox clone.)
-Young Link exist in Toon Link. (Not even close they have different attributes and decloned move sets.)
To me clones aren't a bad thing it gives you an option to pick one character that has a certain moveset and playstyle and pick the one that is more exact to what you are looking for since clones are never true full clones. several moves interact differently.

More stages is always a plus content like that can keep it entertaining so you aren't always playing the same stages. I would want all the previous stages back to tell the truth but thats if they can code some kind of stage expansion sets. In an ideal world having all the Smash 64, Melee and Brawl stages in this one game would be amazing. Veteran, Competitive, and casual players alike would really enjoy the game that much more. But anyway stages I want to see return are as follows.
-Yoshis Island Smash 64(without the clouds maybe)
-Mute City
-Kongo Jungle(Without the barrel)
-Poke Floats
-Rainbow Cruise

 

[Bleck]

I think this discussion is really dumb.

maybe you should try reading other threads

 

[asd_]

The whole Melee/PM thing really pisses me off.

Melee players disliked Brawl because of how different it was from Melee.

Now we have a dedicated team of 100+ people specifically tailoring a game for you and you still ***** about how it's not a direct copy of Melee. It has the same physics, the Melee top tiers are almost identical, it strives for roster-wide balance, it adds mountains of user-requested content and new modes, and you still throw a fit.

PM was initially made for Melee players who didn't like Brawl physics.

PM is now made for PM players. If you don't like it, go back to Melee. We'll try to hold back the tears.

i dont think you understand the point of this thread

let's take fox. fox is, undeniably, the best character in melee. sure, his upsmash/upair are effortless and can kill floaties at very low percents. it's pretty cheesy and not that fun to play against. but everything else outside of that takes skill (not to mention setups to get to that point). it's also undeniable that fox is the hardest character to play in the game because he's so technically demanding (along with falco)

in pm, you have characters like m2, lucas, link (etc) that require half the effort that fox takes that give even more reward. they have insanely potent tools that require effortless play when compared to fox.

that is the problem being addressed. pm is pm and melee is melee. hell, pm doesn't even feel like melee one bit when we're talking just basic physics and whatnot.

and melee players disliked brawl not because it was so different, but because it removed all of the skill based mechanics that were present in 64 and expanded upon in melee. it's like saying "hey, let's take bunnyhopping out of quake 5"




either way none of this matters cause pm will never be big -- it's a mod. smash 4 will overshadow it.

 

[Bleck]

The problem is whether or not Fox/Falco's more technically difficult tools are meaningful enough to the metagame that they should continue to exist to the detriment of all other aspects of balance in the game.

Ask yourself these questions; is there any reason why Fox (and to a lesser extent, Falco) should be able to do the things he can do beyond "that's how it was in Melee"? Does the fast-paced, technically-oriented environment of Project M suddenly not exist if Fox is no longer capable of polarizing powerful things? Would any of the other more problematic characters need to be as powerful as they are if not to deal with Fox and Falco?

 

[MLGF]

Some part of me doubts that actually, I'm still getting far more PM attendance then Sm4sh in my local scene.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

PAL Fox Usmash. Please and thank you.

"Fox's up smash weakened, damage dropped from 18% in NTSC to 17% in PAL, knockback dramatically weakened, for example, in PAL-version Peach would die to Fox's Usmash at as high of a % as 83%, whereas in the NTSC version Peach only needs to be at 71% to be Star KO'd at Final Destination uncharged. A fully charged fully stale upsmash could kill Peach at 55% on Final Destination."

NTSC: Clean hit deals 18% with 30 base knockback and 112 knockback scaling.

PAL: Clean hit deals 17% with 26 base knockback and 108 knockback scaling.

 

[asd_]

Ask yourself these questions; is there any reason why Fox (and to a lesser extent, Falco) should be able to do the things he can do beyond "that's how it was in Melee"? Does the fast-paced, technically-oriented environment of Project M suddenly not exist if Fox is no longer capable of polarizing powerful things? Would any of the other more problematic characters need to be as powerful as they are if not to deal with Fox and Falco?

yes, there will always be a best character. "perfect balance" is IMPOSSIBLE. better off its the characters that take the most skill to use.

of course the fast paced environment will stay but the problem with PM is that there is so much cheese and effortless characters that are just not fun to play against if the player is remotely potent.

 

[Bleck]

There's not always going to be a best character - anybody who's played fighting games other than Smash Bros. knows that.

 

[MLGF]

Heavy execution should never be something that qualifies as a "con" for a character. It's like playing smart via setups or spacing is somehow less skill based then just plain execution.

Look, I don't think any of the Melee tops need any real nerfs (with the exception of Fox in the case that all other PM tops are getting nerfed equally) but acting like some barrier of entry should be some sort of way to balance a cast is BS. Perfect balance is not possible, but balancing around execution is stupid.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

yes, there will always be a best character. "perfect balance" is IMPOSSIBLE. better off its the characters that take the most skill to use.

Two people of equal skill could put the same amount of effort into two different characters. One low tier and one high tier. Is it necessarily fair that the player who picked the better character should win most of their battles purely by virtue of their character having more options and generally being capable of dealing far more damage easier? Yeah, it happens in fighting games all the time and there was nothing one could really do about it. But we live in the age where it's possible to patch these games, and many fighting games are periodically patched in an attempt to bring a greater amount of balance to their games.

There's not always going to be a best character - anybody who's played fighting games other than Smash Bros. knows that.

Depends on the fighting game really. Many older games have top tiers that are basically set in stone at this point. Granted, that does not apply to new games where patching occurs annually.

 

[asd_]

Yeah, it happens in fighting games all the time and there was nothing one could really do about it. But we live in the age where it's possible to patch these games, and many fighting games are periodically patched in an attempt to bring a greater amount of balance to their games.

good balance =/= perfect balance

There's not always going to be a best character - anybody who's played fighting games other than Smash Bros. knows that.

sorry you have no idea what you're talking about lol
there will always be a "best" character in a 1 on 1 game. maybe not by a large margin, but one will exist.

the problem with pm is that the top tier characters are just very anti-fun to play against. playing against spacies is not that fustrating.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

good balance =/= perfect balance

there will always be a "best" character in a 1 on 1 game. maybe not by a large margin, but one will exist.

That may be true, that there will always be a best, but that does not mean that it always needs to be the same character or characters based upon execution barrier. It's a different game than Melee, so the tops should change from build to build, much in the manner that they do in other games that are regularly patched.

 

[MTL Kyle]

.
the problem with pm is that the top tier characters are just very anti-fun to play against. playing against spacies is not that fustrating.

No. You are wrong.

The problem with PM top tiers is the fact they have really abusive options and completely outclass other characters.