Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[Pwnz0rz Man]

THANK YOU! Exactly! Melee top tiers are not even top tier in PM and we are talking about nerfing them. This is anti-melee bias if I have ever seen it. There are way too many Melee haters. The top tier characters in PM like Pit, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Link and Ivysaur should be looked at before even considering mentioning Melee top tiers.

It's amazing how you lack the ability to read what's been said. The point is that if the characters that are currently unhealthy for the game are getting nerfed, you end up with the potential of Fox/Falco being right back in their unhealthy for the game positions of top. The conversation revolves around if those characters should remain unchanged or if their potential position of unhealthy should be allowed to continue "because melee". It's not about hating Melee, it's about wanting a fair balance of characters. If some are to be looked at, others should as well. It's the only fair way to go about things. Everytime something gets said, people like you spit out that it's anti-melee bias in the most mindless way possible without reading or considering that it's not some witch-hunt against your ideology.

To quote Huey Freeman slightly out of context. "And stop the damn dancing! Act like you got some goddamn sense people!" That is all.

 

[MLGF]

...Are we really complaining about Zelda?
Are we really saying she's top tier?
OMG lol.

But really, this isn't about Fox's placement. It's about the negative consequences that come when you try to make characters as good as Fox. It's easier to balance a game around Marth or Sheik then it is spacies and that's why nerfing Fox would improve overall balance.

 

[Mystic-]

THANK YOU! Exactly! Melee top tiers are not even top tier in PM and we are talking about nerfing them. This is anti-melee bias if I have ever seen it. There are way too many Melee haters. The top tier characters in PM like Pit, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Link and Ivysaur should be looked at before even considering mentioning Melee top tiers.

Yea Zelda is taking the world by storm I agree 100% 10/10 quality post

Edit: In all seriousness, this thread is assuming that the stupidly strong PM top tiers at the moment (which doesn't include Zelda....) are going to be nerfed. If that is the case, and Fox isn't nerfed when he is already more than competitive, he'll simply be the best character in the game again and that runs against the whole basis of PM

 

[Joe73191]

It's amazing how you lack the ability to read what's been said. The point is that if the characters that are currently unhealthy for the game are getting nerfed, you end up with the potential of Fox/Falco being right back in their unhealthy for the game positions of top. The conversation revolves around if those characters should remain unchanged or if their potential position of unhealthy should be allowed to continue "because melee".

That creates a slippery slope where every time you get a top tier, you nerf them until everyone is nerfed into oblivion. Nerfing just because "top tier" will not balance the game or make it better.

 

[Bleck]

slippery slope

oh man here we go

 

[Mystic-]

That creates a slippery slope where every time you get a top tier, you nerf them until everyone is nerfed into oblivion. Nerfing just because "top tier" will not balance the game or make it better.

Someone is new to the whole "balance patch" thing aren't they? "You can't nerf the best character/champion/hero/class because that means you'll make it useless!". Come on...you can figure this one out on your own

Edit: This is the last thing I'm going to post here as this thread is just posting the same logic in circles and I feel like I'm spamming. We have seen what happens when we buff other characters to Fox's level. Almost no one enjoys it as the tools they have to be given are ridiculous. However, the goal is to have a relatively balanced game. Therefore, if we nerf everyone on Fox's level then Fox has to be nerfed as well or else he is left as the best character. The nerfing of the top tiers will continue until everyone has an appropriate balance of strengths and weaknesses in the eyes of the community and the PMDT. Honestly, the nerfs proposed by people in this thread for Fox would likely leave him top tier in 3.5 regardless and that's probably where anyone with Fox's kit will inevitably end up.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

That creates a slippery slope where every time you get a top tier, you nerf them until everyone is nerfed into oblivion. Nerfing just because "top tier" will not balance the game or make it better.

No one mentioned anything regarding nerfing everyone into oblivion nor was nerfing because "Top tier" mentioned. What's been mentioned, if you were paying attention is that we're working off the assumption that the characters with silly things are going to be adjusted, which will have an affect on their overall placing, tier wise. The characters that are currently top, just happen to be the ones that have those silly things, hence why I mentioned them at all.

You're not even paying attention or considering what is being said, you're just saying "They don't need to be adjusted because they're not currently winning". Yeah, Ness isn't currently winning either, but he still has a stupid design centered almost entirely around his PK Fire. Regardless of whether a character is at the very very top at this moment in time is irrelevant if they have a design that is potentially damaging to the rest of the game.

Say what you will about Melee being balanced around the top tiers, but the overall balance of that game and viability of the majority of the cast as a whole isn't really....good. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but would you be okay if this game had a top tier and overall viability equal to that? Where you have potentially 5 characters that can regularly win, and then another 4 that can sometimes challenge them? Is that acceptable with a game consisting of 42 characters?

 

[Frost | Odds]

3) Jigglypuff (perfect moveset, but needs some utility behind it, needing something in general)

What if we gave her

-an instant tether from enormous range,
-Rest an incredibly disjointed hitbox 8 times the size of her body,
-made Bair way faster, less laggy, gave it 2 hits, and let it hit in every direction
-a huge meteor that also helps her recover
-a bigger version of Fox's upsmash that hits through platforms
-a heavier weight
-mewtwo's nair
-a way to heal and thus force approaches
-a goddamn mexibeam

all without appreciably nerfing her in any way?












oh, wait

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Someone is new to the whole "balance patch" thing aren't they? "You can't nerf the best character/champion/hero/class because that means you'll make it useless!". Come on...you can figure this one out on your own

Edit: This is the last thing I'm going to post here as this thread is just posting the same logic in circles and I feel like I'm spamming. We have seen what happens when we buff other characters to Fox's level. Almost no one enjoys it as the tools they have to be given are ridiculous. However, the goal is to have a relatively balanced game. Therefore, if we nerf everyone on Fox's level then Fox has to be nerfed as well or else he is left as the best character. The nerfing of the top tiers will continue until everyone has an appropriate balance of strengths and weaknesses in the eyes of the community and the PMDT. Honestly, the nerfs proposed by people in this thread for Fox would likely leave him top tier in 3.5 regardless and that's probably where anyone with Fox's kit will inevitably end up.

Just wanna add >.> I like Mario how he is. But won't complain (too much) if he gets tweaked a lil bit.

 

[Narpas_sword]

THANK YOU! Exactly! Melee top tiers are not even top tier in PM and we are talking about nerfing them. This is anti-melee bias if I have ever seen it. There are way too many Melee haters. The top tier characters in PM like Pit, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Link and Ivysaur should be looked at before even considering mentioning Melee top tiers.

I think you are missing something.

A lot of characters that are at the top with 'silly' tools are there BECAUSE they needed something to deal with spacies.
The problem being, giving someone something that works vs spacies, means they get something that works vs everyone.

If spacies weren't so much of a threat, there wouldn't be a need for other characters to have tools to be viable vs them (and being viable vs them, making them powerful vs others)

 

[Fortress]

What if we gave her

-an instant tether from enormous range,
-Rest an incredibly disjointed hitbox 8 times the size of her body,
-made Bair way faster, less laggy, gave it 2 hits, and let it hit in every direction
-a huge meteor that also helps her recover
-a bigger version of Fox's upsmash that hits through platforms
-a heavier weight
-mewtwo's nair
-a way to heal and thus force approaches
-a goddamn mexibeam

all without appreciably nerfing her in any way?












oh, wait

Oh, you.

Did you even read anything I said?

No, which I thought the "I just woke up" thing would cover.

Did you read anything that I said?

EDIT: Went back and read what you've said for the past two pages. Nothing but "did you even read what I said", and "why did you even bother replying to me". Closest thing I've said to you was "Puff needs". So, okay...

...Who are you?

 

[Vashimus]

IMO Marth, Roy, and Falcon are examples of strong character design and I'm rather interested to get a more coherent argument of how they aren't. When I lose to one of these characters I always learn something new about my weaknesses as a player and I know that I lost to the player, not to the character. That, to me, is good design.

Falcon's character design is strong, but it isn't good design in the slightest. The majority of attacks in his moveset are either situational, or just there and useless. You can realistically cut out more than half of Falcon's moveset and he'd manage. There is such thing as "move balance" beyond simple character balance.

Like, in Melee as Samus, the ONLY move I could give up and still play a mostly intact Samus is Up Smash. Every single other move is useful. I am forced to make decisions on spacing and pick between a bevy of different normals. All are useful in their own ways and create more intricate and interesting Nash equilibriums (the game theory that is the heart of many fighting game decisions). It's EXCELLENT move balance, and it leads to a very well-designed character. Marth is the same way.

Falcon players dash dance ad infinitum because there's literally nothing else they can do and they often have no choice, and it's sad.

 

[Fortress]

Falcon's character design is strong, but it isn't good design in the slightest. The majority of attacks his moveset are either situational, or just there and useless. You can realistically cut out more than half of Falcon's moveset and he'd manage. There is such thing as "move balance" beyond simple character balance.

Like, in Melee as Samus, the ONLY move I could give up and still play a mostly intact Samus is Up Smash. Every single other move is useful. I am forced to make decisions on spacing and pick between a bevy of different normals. All are useful in their own ways and create more intricate and interesting Nash equilibriums (the game theory that is the heart of many fighting game decisions). It's EXCELLENT move balance, and it leads to a very well-designed character. Marth is in a similar boat.

Falcon's dash dance ad infinitum because there's literally nothing else they can do and they have no choice. Once he gets his train started and goes ham do things actually get interesting.

Trying to figure out what he has, but I swear I'm missing something:

Dash attack(?)*
Jab
Jab2(?)
dTilt(?)
nAir
fAir
uAir
bAir
dAir
dSpecial(?)
dSmash(?)
Grab
dThrow
fThrow

I feel like I'm missing some things here, but anything without a question mark are pretty much necessary for Falcon, and Dash attack is more-or-less a niche move that has been shown to be somewhat useful in some janky ledge resets. Pretty sure every move that's not those are pretty much fluff on top of what he has.

I also feel like Falcon is just fine the way he is, but that in itself shouldn't be any reason why he has to stick with having some junk moves. Nothing's wrong with a few junk moves (chain, anybody?), but, I don't know. I guess I feel like the utility on some of Falcon's junk moves should be looked at. I mean, the dude has nine attacks that I know of that are basically needed to play him at his most effective. A lot of his game gravitates towards smart movement and patient play because of his lack of a diverse moveset, but I don't know if that in of itself is a bad enough thing to warrant an overhaul on some of his junk attacks.

 

[Eisen]

Oh, another thing I find hilarious is that Fox defenders are so scared of their character being anything but top. Like, as if him being top in Melee gives him some right to never fall below a certain spot in the tier list. Imagine for a moment if Fox fell to mid-tier in PM. Would that be so bad if he was still VIABLE? Why is Fox so privileged to being the best that he can't settle for just decency like, you know, most of the cast in Smash games Fox has been in? Heaven forbid he isn't the best character apparently.

Point is that, worst case scenario, he gets MEGA nerfs and drops to bottom tier. He still probably has enough Melee knowledge behind him to keep him going for a good while.

Lucas has been broken since 2.5b when I first picked him up, but nobody noticed or cared really (let alone had the skill to use him) until 3.0. As is, he's top 3 arguably, if not the best character in the game. Does this mean that because I spent over a year developing his meta with others that he's entitled to that spot? I don't think so. I'm prepared for Lucas to drop massively in his capabilities; can't really say for his placement on the tier list because the game is going to be SO much different from 3.02. But even if he drops to bottom, I don't particularly mind as long as he has the tools to be viable. I'll MAKE him work, and I know others will.

Also, kind of unrelated but, despite how overpowered and dumb half the PM cast is, honestly the game has not really rewarded anyone but top tier PM characters and Melee characters. The latter mostly because, since they stayed the same for the sake of seniority, nobody had to rethink their Melee mains too much. Jiggs actually suffered the most from this transition and is pretty seriously crippled, but otherwise the game still rewards people for not trying anything new is my point. It's either been "abuse gimmicks or play Melee top tier characters", and I really hope that changes. I have to worry that, despite the game being more balanced hopefully in 3.5, the game will just be Melee 2.0 with more characters nobody plays because everyone just wants to win money, which is annoying and stupid to me, though I realize it's not an intrinsic problem--just stating my opinions here. I realize that people should be rewarded for their YEARS of hard work at Melee fundamentals, but Fox levels of Melee are just toxic, in my honest opinion. Gah, I don't even know where I'm going with this, I just hope that 3.5 will bring actual balance to the metagame and reward the non-melee-mains for their hard work too.

 

[Frank Curtis]

If I may put in my two cents, I think there are two problems here. The first problem is that due to Version 3.0.2 meta still being a bit young (almost a year now if I'm not mistaken), maybe everyone has yet to discover traits in other characters (besides the one mentioned constantly in this forum) that allow the lower tiers to counter what the high tiers have to offer and shoot them up in popular use. Back in the early days of Melee competitive play, people considered Ice Climbers trash until players discovered how to use them properly. Now grant it this made Ice Climbers polarizing characters because of their grab mechanics, but it's still something to keep in mind I think.

The second problem is that....well maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but it seems like the community will easily complain about characters winning too many tournaments. Do people happen to realize that it's players who use these characters? Would people complain if Fox and Falco always won tournaments in PM? Heck I'm not sure, but I've played a bit of PM since the 3.0 release and to be honest, while I do believe some characters are really ridiculous *cough Mewtwo cough Pit*, but should we paint other good characters with the same code of paint due to being guilty by association? Grant it I may sound unreasonable, but I still think it's something to consider.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Zelda, Ness, Snake, etc. These characters have just as polarizing pros and cons with the same potential as Fox. Fox has like a 13 year head start!

I don't think any of these hit the same warped pros vs cons Fox abd Falco really hit.

Bad recovery? These two actually still have better than most in Melee. PM warped most of the cast to be so much better nothing in Brawl or Smash 4 even compares to the ridiculousness.

Camping? Lasers have shown to be hands down one if the best of the whole cast, even still in PM. Smash 4 actually nerfed these in a way where they have an actual draw back instead of a fast SH option no one can really punish. Then they have a reflected to counter projectiles themselves.

They get combo'd? Roy Falcon Ganon and plenty of others have this far worse and Donny even come close to matching what else these two have in to compensate for it. Letting them be 0-death'd if it even happens it's really bad design To an extreme level of not fun or exciting.

Chain grabs? These shouldn't exist and generally become abusive more often than not. And if it affects Fox, it will affect everyone else.

Range? Considering the lack of a Sword both him and Falco have sword legs, they have a lot better range and priority than most.

~

Brawl to a minor extent tried to fix this, slight Falco rework and Fox got hit in a few areas, wasn't enough both were still strong and Fox would have also been top tier had he not gotten boned in 3 different match-Ups in Ftilt locks or chain grabs. Both of them still were jack of all trades and top tier is a few areas.

Smash 4 actually fixed and defined them better than any other smash game, heck I'd even say the whole cast has been tailored to have clear strengths and weaknesses while having a unique play style. Fox and Falco both got there KO power reduced and laser game nerfed to have more counter play and openings to them while keeping third speed and swift style going, and even gave them utility back to compensate. This makes overbalance better for the game better.

In PM? I can't say they really make the rest of the cast better in terms of standing out. PM in general doesn't do this for characters and doing the opposite of buffing DOTA style has shown why this doesn't work.

When they are strong as is, trade offs are a lot more limited against them in there Melee design. They need more rather than trying to outmatch them and make Mewtwo/Lucas/Diddy/Pit and the other problem characters in the past.

I don't want them gutted, I want them to have more meaningful trade offs for what they offer.

 

[Fortress]

Smash 4 actually fixed and defined them better than any other smash game, heck I'd even say the whole cast has been tailored to have clear strengths and weaknesses while having a unique play style. Fox and Falco both got there KO power reduced and laser game nerfed to have more counter play and openings to them while keeping third speed and swift style going, and even gave them utility back to compensate. This makes overbalance better for the game better.

I don't want them gutted, I want them to have more meaningful trade offs for what they offer.

This is the kind of approach I think the PMDT should take. Fox/Falco in Smash 4 still have their strongest characteristics at their core (strong/fast moves), but with introduced weaknesses to compensate and allow more counterplay against them. I feel like Brawl Falco with his Melee shine would be just fine, but that's just me. Just as a weird example.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Oh, another thing I find hilarious is that Fox defenders are so scared of their character being anything but top. Like, as if him being top in Melee gives him some right to never fall below a certain spot in the tier list. Imagine for a moment if Fox fell to mid-tier in PM. Would that be so bad if he was still VIABLE? Why is Fox so privileged to being the best that he can't settle for just decency like, you know, most of the cast in Smash games Fox has been in? Heaven forbid he isn't the best character apparently.

Im in support of the SSB64 top tiers getting huge buffs. they deserve top =p

 

[nimigoha]

I feel like Brawl Falco with his Melee shine would be just fine, but that's just me. Just as a weird example.

That's definitely not how the PMDT should approach this. PM Falco should play like Melee Falco. If you give him back is ridiculous shine then the character falls to pieces.

I wouldn't be opposed to the Brawl Fsmash animation though, I think it's really cool. Change the sweetspot and active frames and whatnot so it's similar to Melee Fsmash, just a different animation. His old Fair would be cool if it was tweaked. Interesting to see SHFFLed.

But probably not good ideas.

 

[4tlas]

Considering the Melee top 8 has been enjoyed for 13 years and the tournament numbers are higher than ever I don't think it is even contraversial to say most people would enjoy the top 8 staying the same more than if they were changed. Most people obviously see them as fun to play as is. I think also that this fact alone shows how well designed the characters are for this to be the case.

I really don't understand how anyone can be so confident that they KNOW what other people want. Are you a marketer?

Why does this make it good design, because people like playing them? People like playing them because they have the most power and meaningful choices. Fox has so many options and all of them are powerful in their own way. Using the correct one requires foresight and finesse, which makes it feel rewarding. However the fact remains that he possesses a lot of raw power and flexibility, arguably to the point of excess.

The roster needs to be designed so that every character has a niche. With such a large cast, that is difficult. What is Ivy's niche? Defensive spacing with punishing combos? What about Zelda's? Defensive spacing...without punishing combos? Are there any other niches to fill with regards to Defensive spacing? Probably, but I don't think we are currently filling them. Are these characters currently filling them? Perhaps, due to Ivy's reach she can try to space offensively, and due to Zelda's teledash she can try to be aggressive. But they are not as good at these things.

The Melee top tiers have a lot of flexible power, and their "niches" are quite large. Fox can do many different things: approach, camp, gimp, recover, combo, space, and kill. He is the all-around character, and the only characters who can beat such a thing need to have a better strength in at least one of these categories, just to even be worth playing. Falco has better approach due to lasers making it safe, as well as stronger combos (pillaring), but without as good recovery or kill power. Marth has better spacing, comboing, and killing, but no camp and little recovery. Sheik has great gimp and good combos, but with bad kill power and recovery. Peach has good spacing, gimping, and recovery, but bad approach. Jigglypuff has excellent spacing and recovery with good gimp, but bad approach and camp.

What I am trying to say is that the Melee tops filled huge niches, as if the game only had a roster of 6+some (ICs for pure combos, Samus for camp/kill, etc). But in a game with 30+ characters, flexible characters can't have such high power levels. In order to make a character as strong as Melee tops, their strengths (aka jank) have to be so overbearing that they have a niche: abusing that one strength. To make Sonic as powerful as Fox, he'd better abuse his speed to approach and combo with little hits to all hell, because that's all he can do. To make Ivy as powerful as Fox, he'd better outspace and gimp everyone with those huge vine hitboxes, because that's all he can do.

Fox can afford to be flexible if the whole cast gets their power level torn down, but honestly Mario should be the all-around guy, so it would be better if Fox were redesigned to fit some other niche. Maybe the all-around guy who's fast but has less kill power or something, still close to old Fox. I don't know. But he is not well designed (not that I think Mario is either)

 

[Deleted member]

Falcon's character design is strong, but it isn't good design in the slightest. The majority of attacks in his moveset are either situational, or just there and useless. You can realistically cut out more than half of Falcon's moveset and he'd manage. There is such thing as "move balance" beyond simple character balance.

Like, in Melee as Samus, the ONLY move I could give up and still play a mostly intact Samus is Up Smash. Every single other move is useful. I am forced to make decisions on spacing and pick between a bevy of different normals. All are useful in their own ways and create more intricate and interesting Nash equilibriums (the game theory that is the heart of many fighting game decisions). It's EXCELLENT move balance, and it leads to a very well-designed character. Marth is the same way.

Falcon players dash dance ad infinitum because there's literally nothing else they can do and they often have no choice, and it's sad.

i normally like your posts but i wanted to address this one because i think it is misleading. falcon's design is actually pretty good since he uses a fair but unique way to interact with the cast, while also not being too strong due to his linear gameplay (as opposed to say lucas, who is also unique and has good design but simply excels in too many non-linear ways). there is nothing wrong with having a character based around one or two central tactics, and in many ways it's actually preferable since it makes that character easier to resolve in terms of degeneracy if/when it arises in development, so for example the development team was able to address wobbling in a pretty direct and clean manner. what happens if we decide that say samus's ice fair is too strong? it's now intimately linked with the rest of the character and any solution there is guaranteed to be much more complicated. falcon players bring dashdancing on a heavy frame to the competitive table, and thats a fine way to go about 1 character out of 40+.

as an aside, everyone can stop hiding behind the whole "fox has an extra 13 years of development" **** because no one uses that argument for the other half of the cast. like let's strawman and say obviously link is fine and we've just had experience vs his toolkit since 1999, get your fakeass "balance" out of here.

 

[C-SAF]

as an aside, everyone can stop hiding behind the whole "fox has an extra 13 years of development" **** because no one uses that argument for the other half of the cast. like let's strawman and say obviously link is fine and we've just had experience vs his toolkit since 1999, get your fakeass "balance" out of here.

Well it could be used for the rest of the cast but PM players seem to only think spacies are the problem.

Also, gotta say spacies are some of the most fun characters to play. Yeah they're the best in melee and thats attractive to people, but I think most players go to spacies because they're fun. If Jiggs or shiek were best in the game, I have a feeling most people would still play spacies.

Edit: and to the idea that every character needs a niche that 4tlas else brought up. That's a terrible idea. That's the definition of how you get abusive gameplay and uninteresting characters.

 

[Deleted member]

and to the idea that every character needs a niche that 4tlas else brought up. That's a terrible idea. That's the definition of how you get abusive gameplay and uninteresting characters.

 

[MLGF]

Honest to god, A big thing I hate 'bout Sm4sh is how stupidly linear characters feel due to annoyingly specific strengths and weakness, makes characters feel stupidly flowcharty and linear.

I want all characters to excel in a lot of things and weaknesses being less extreme. It's far more fun playing a versatile character, just so long as they don't dominate everything. Marth and Sheik have some clear weaknesses, but their strengths let them be used in a multiple of different ways. The more extreme a characters strengths and weaknesses are, the more stupidly unfun and linear they feel. It's why Sm4sh feels shallow to me and it's the last thing I hope PM does.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Well it could be used for the rest of the cast but PM players seem to only think spacies are the problem.

Also, gotta say spacies are some of the most fun characters to play. Yeah they're the best in melee and thats attractive to people, but I think most players go to spacies because they're fun. If Jiggs or shiek were best in the game, I have a feeling most people would still play spacies.

Edit: and to the idea that every character needs a niche that 4tlas else brought up. That's a terrible idea. That's the definition of how you get abusive gameplay and uninteresting characters.

Who? Who has said that the only problem is spacies? Because I haven't seen anyone flat out say it. If the reason for that idea is that we're talking about spacies primarily, then it's already been explained why and people in favor of leaving them the same have largely ignored it. We already assume that the other PM characters are getting changes, but because they're the spacies, many feel that they're largely immune from changes except on a very minor scale that would not take away from their potential dominance.

To chime in on that thought that if Puff/Sheik were the best, people would still play Spacies, that depends. If the spacies were still towards the top, sure. If they were towards the bottom though, you had better believe that people would tier ***** their selections in the same manner that many do both in this game and in other fighting games and only dedicated fans would even give them the time of day, much like people who currently use characters like Ganon, Zelda, or Ness. People don't play spacies for the most part because they as characters are fun, they play them because winning is fun.

To add to that, there's nothing inherently wrong with "Tier Whoring", but to say that that is not why so many play some of these characters would be factually dishonest. People are going to want to put most of their effort into a character that can net them victory, that's why you don't see these top tier players spending all their time on lower tiers (Except Sethlon...but he's an exception).

And not every character deserves a niche? Yet it's okay for one character to have multiple niches and somehow that isn't abusive?

 

[C-SAF]

Who? Who has said that the only problem is spacies? Because I haven't seen anyone flat out say it. If the reason for that idea is that we're talking about spacies primarily, then it's already been explained why and people in favor of leaving them the same have largely ignored it. We already assume that the other PM characters are getting changes, but because they're the spacies, many feel that they're largely immune from changes except on a very minor scale that would not take away from their potential dominance.

To chime in on that thought that if Puff/Sheik were the best, people would still play Spacies, that depends. If the spacies were still towards the top, sure. If they were towards the bottom though, you had better believe that people would tier ***** their selections in the same manner that many do both in this game and in other fighting games and only dedicated fans would even give them the time of day, much like people who currently use characters like Ganon, Zelda, or Ness. People don't play spacies for the most part because they as characters are fun, they play them because winning is fun.

To add to that, there's nothing inherently wrong with "Tier Whoring", but to say that that is not why so many play some of these characters would be factually dishonest. People are going to want to put most of their effort into a character that can net them victory, that's why you don't see these top tier players spending all their time on lower tiers (Except Sethlon...but he's an exception).

And not every character deserves a niche? Yet it's okay for one character to have multiple niches and somehow that isn't abusive?

I guess ur the type that have to have things "flat out said" to you then. The thread says "Melee Top Tiers" but spacies are dominating the conversation.

Spacies can win, and they have some of the dopest combos. Some people will only care about the winning part, but for the most part people play to swag and do combos. That's why Captain Falcon has such a large following. He has a high learning curve and doesn't win against most top tiers, but people play him because he is the coolest in the game.

There is a trade off where your character has to be good enough to win some, but none of the other characters in the game have the combos that many of the top tiers do. Combos=fun. Roy is more an example why there shouldn't be exact clones in the game with one being waaaay better than the other.

And niches are stupid. They pigeon hole characters to being played one way. Characters can be more offensive or defensive, but beyond that character archetypes will only hinder gameplay and lead to a million counterpicks at top level. Deep characters can be played many ways.

 

[Deleted member]

i agree that intentionally designing character for a pre-determined niche is inorganic and kinda stupid, but i think it's okay if a character happens to end up somewhat linear. for example, i love melee zelda to death, and lets be real it doesnt get much more linear than that

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I guess ur the type that have to have things "flat out said" to you then. The thread says "Melee Top Tiers" but spacies are dominating the conversation.

Spacies can win, and they have some of the dopest combos. Some people will only care about the winning part, but for the most part people play to swag and do combos. That's why Captain Falcon has such a large following. He has a high learning curve and doesn't win against most top tiers, but people play him because he is the coolest in the game.

There is a trade off where your character has to be good enough to win some, but none of the other characters in the game have the combos that many of the top tiers do. Combos=fun. Roy is more an example why there shouldn't be exact clones in the game with one being waaaay better than the other.

And niches are stupid. They pigeon hole characters to being played one way. Characters can be more offensive or defensive, but beyond that character archetypes will only hinder gameplay and lead to a million counterpicks at top level. Deep characters can be played many ways.

Spacies are mentioned because the other top tiers have either had their dominating aspects drastically reduced or they were never a dominating force in PM in the first place. They're the characters constantly desired to be left essentially the same, for better or for worse. Few threw a fit when they altered Sheik's throws because it's better for the game that way. Marth and Peach are pretty balanced in a PM environment, that's why they're not talked about to the same depth that the Starfox Team is. They don't threaten to ruin the game's balance when everyone else is equally brought down in 3.5.

In a competitive environment, people play to win. Combos are done to deal damage and possibly kill, it's not because the majority of players wants to look cool, it's because they want to have an edge that will lead to a more guaranteed victory. Looking cool is just an after-effect of that, not the intention.

It's not combos that prevent the lower tiers from being as good, as most characters in this game have combos to some extent. The problem comes when one character is allowed to control the neutral aspect of the game and that other character cannot land or avoid an initial hit that leads into combos. The Melee Spacies are all about controlling the neutral and in being allowed to do so to the detriment of the other player, characters with slower speeds and slower attacks are essentially set up to be combo food. They have to commit very little with anything they do, where as characters like Ganondorf, Bowser, Luigi, and even Link have to commit to the majority of their moves in some way or another. (Just a few examples, let me know if I'm wrong in using those specifically) At the moment, they have near guaranteed hit confirmations into kill moves as well, which many others lack.

Regarding niches, I'm not saying that they should be pigeon-holed into one style of play, but that everyone should have something that they can excel at. I'm perfectly happy if they're exceptional at one thing and slightly less so at others, so long as it doesn't centralize their gameplay or make them overly linear. At the moment, there's very little that spacies could be considered not so good with and what they are not good at is not enough to keep them from being capable of potentially dominating when the remainder of the cast is brought down from the attempt to make them on par with spacies in the first place.

On another unrelated note, I'm fairly certain that shine is going to be altered in 3.5, leading to a lesser amount of guaranteed combos. Higher knockback scaling on set distances will likely mess with a great deal of shine combos, though potentially could allow shine-spikes to be better.

(There, been working on that post for a while, hopefully it sounds right now.)

 

[C-SAF]

Spacies are mentioned because the other top tiers have either had their dominating aspects drastically reduced or they were never a dominating force in PM in the first place. They're the characters constantly desired to be left essentially the same, for better or for worse. Few threw a fit when they altered Sheik's throws because it's better for the game that way. Marth and Peach are pretty balanced in a PM environment, that's why they're not talked about to the same depth that the Starfox Team is. They don't threaten to ruin the game's balance when everyone else is equally brought down in 3.5.

In a competitive environment, people play to win. Combos are done to deal damage and possibly kill, it's not because the majority of players wants to look cool, it's because they want to have an edge that will lead to a more guaranteed victory. Looking cool is just an after-effect of that, not the intention.

It's not combos that prevent the lower tiers from being as good, as most characters in this game have combos to some extent. The problem comes when one character is allowed to control the neutral aspect of the game and that other character cannot land or avoid an initial hit that leads into combos. The Melee Spacies are all about controlling the neutral and in being allowed to do so to the detriment of the other player, characters with slower speeds and slower attacks are essentially set up to be combo food. They have to commit very little with anything they do, where as characters like Ganondorf, Bowser, Luigi, and even Link have to commit to the majority of their moves in some way or another. (Just a few examples, let me know if I'm wrong in using those specifically) At the moment, they have near guaranteed hit confirmations into kill moves as well, which many others lack.

Regarding niches, I'm not saying that they should be pigeon-holed into one style of play, but that everyone should have something that they can excel at. I'm perfectly happy if they're exceptional at one thing and slightly less so at others, so long as it doesn't centralize their gameplay or make them overly linear. At the moment, there's very little that spacies could be considered not so good with and what they are not good at is not enough to keep them from being capable of potentially dominating when the remainder of the cast is brought down from the attempt to make them on par with spacies in the first place.

On another unrelated note, I'm fairly certain that shine is going to be altered in 3.5, leading to a lesser amount of guaranteed combos. Higher knockback scaling on set distances will likely mess with a great deal of shine combos, though potentially could allow shine-spikes to be better.

(There, been working on that post for a while, hopefully it sounds right now.)

Lol, you play for the wrong reasons. If this game wasn't about fun and doing combos nobody would play. Any fighting game can give you the enjoyment of winning, melee has survived because its dope to play. I hope that transfers to PM because I really want to see Melee in a new incarnation.

Spacies are fun, and they are far from dominating PM. The problem is really the simplistic nature of the new characters in my opinion. We will never know what issues the game has though if it keeps changing. 3.5 should nerf tethers, then all should be left alone except for bugs and cosmetic changes for a few years.

Lets not change known qualities such as spacies when the new qualities of PM have barely been explored.

Edit: and also looking cool is the intention of many things regarding character choice

 

[Narpas_sword]

Lol, you play for the wrong reasons. If this game wasn't about fun and doing combos nobody would play. Any fighting game can give you the enjoyment of winning, melee has survived because its dope to play. I hope that transfers to PM because I really want to see Melee in a new incarnation.

Spacies are fun, and they are far from dominating PM. The problem is really the simplistic nature of the new characters in my opinion. We will never know what issues the game has though if it keeps changing. 3.5 should nerf tethers, then all should be left alone except for bugs and cosmetic changes for a few years.

Lets not change known qualities such as spacies when the new qualities of PM have barely been explored.

Edit: and also looking cool is the intention of many things regarding character choice

people cant 'play for the wrong reasons'.
You need to restart your post, because most people will stop there.

Unless they're playing for like, ownership of slave children or something. i guess that's pretty wrong.

 

[JOE!]

The problem is really the simplistic nature of the new characters in my opinion.

We will never know what issues the game has though if it keeps changing.

I never got this....

People state there is a problem with the game as is, then chastise PM for changing to attempt to fix problems. Pick one man!

 

[Bleck]

Lol, you play for the wrong reasons.

stop posting

 

[Fortress]

Lol, you play for the wrong reasons. If this game wasn't about fun and doing combos nobody would play.

How many tournaments have you won lately?

[collapse=I think S-Kill said it best here]"Finally, the idea that you can’t win and have fun at the same time needs to be exposed as the mysterious scrub propaganda that it is. Osaki, at least, was having fun. There are a lot of aspects to “fun”, not least of which is the special joy of winning a serious competition. Look at the faces of everyone in the Olympics (the one’s that aren’t already sitting on fat million dollar “I don’t have to care what happens” contracts, anyway)- is anyone having fun? You ever see anything other than those scary “for the judges” smiles? No. The only time you see these hardcore competitors really smile is following… what? A dominating performance. One where they know they’ve just done exactly what they needed to do- for themselves, team, country. Fortunately, SF tournaments (and SF generally) have a lot more opportunities for fun than this. Most every top player I know has a ton of fun playing these games- and unquestionably more than the losing, button slapping scrubs who console themselves by thinking the winner must have “given up his humanity” or some nonsense to get that good. In fact, groups of top players have more fun playing these games, hanging out at the arcade, than any other group I’ve ever seen playing, and I’ve seen a lot. The idea that fun can’t go together with winning isn’t just confused, it’s exactly wrong. These guys are playing the game better, more satisfyingly, seeing more in it, and getting to beat everyone down at the same time. Fun."[/collapse]

 

[C-SAF]

people cant 'play for the wrong reasons'.
You need to restart your post, because most people will stop there.

Unless they're playing for like, ownership of slave children or something. i guess that's pretty wrong.

Stop there then or take the time to read the post, the connection between dope **** and people playing the game is undeniable. You can win at any game is my point, people choose melee cause of the swag. (certainly not cause of the prize money lol)

I never got this....
People state there is a problem with the game as is, then chastise PM for changing to attempt to fix problems. Pick one man!

I didn't make that very clear, I was trying to infer that I would never know if that assumption was right if the game kept changing and could never explore the characters I declared were "simplistic".

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Lol, you play for the wrong reasons. If this game wasn't about fun and doing combos nobody would play. Any fighting game can give you the enjoyment of winning, melee has survived because its dope to play. I hope that transfers to PM because I really want to see Melee in a new incarnation.

Spacies are fun, and they are far from dominating PM. The problem is really the simplistic nature of the new characters in my opinion. We will never know what issues the game has though if it keeps changing. 3.5 should nerf tethers, then all should be left alone except for bugs and cosmetic changes for a few years.

Lets not change known qualities such as spacies when the new qualities of PM have barely been explored.

Edit: and also looking cool is the intention of many things regarding character choice

Melee has survived because it has a rabid fanbase that makes it survive. It should be commended for that as well. A group that loves a 13 year old game and manages to push that love by getting their game into a high profile tournament like Evo deserves respect. However, this is not Melee. If you play this game purely because you want to play Melee, you're playing for the wrong reason.

Sure Spacies are fun, but what you're completely missing is the purpose of the conversation. No one stated that they were currently dominating and frankly, it's maddening how you people completely bypass what many of us are saying. We're not talking about right now. We're talking about 3.5. We're talking about characters being toned down because buffing them up just to compete with the spacies breaks the game. If the characters being buffed to compete ruins the game, then the only logical option would be to attempt reducing the overall power and potential domination of the spacies and those over-buffed few in order to create a slightly better balance overall where a good majority aren't made worthless by the previous character's buffs.

Please stop saying everything comes down to looking cool. That might be true for you, but I guarantee you that the majority of tournament players don't just pick a character because the things they do look cool. The viability and overall placing of the character matters far more than shallow things like their looks or how cool it looks to do things.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Stop there then or take the time to read the post, the connection between dope **** and people playing the game is undeniable. You can win at any game is my point, people choose melee cause of the swag. (certainly not cause of the prize money lol)
.

I am part of the subset known as 'people'
I do not play for 'swag', nor did i ever choose melee for 'swag'
I play it because I enjoy the style.
I play it because when I first got it, it was easy for mates to join in and learn.
I continue to play it because of the desire to be better.
I continue to play because of the friends I have who also enjoy it.
I continue to play it because in my group I still do well at our small tournies.
I continue to play it because i enjoy watching others improve and aiding them in doing so.

 

[C-SAF]

Melee has survived because it has a rabid fanbase that makes it survive. It should be commended for that as well. A group that loves a 13 year old game and manages to push that love by getting their game into a high profile tournament like Evo deserves respect. However, this is not Melee. If you play this game purely because you want to play Melee, you're playing for the wrong reason.

Sure Spacies are fun, but what you're completely missing is the purpose of the conversation. No one stated that they were currently dominating and frankly, it's maddening how you people completely bypass what many of us are saying. We're not talking about right now. We're talking about 3.5. We're talking about characters being toned down because buffing them up just to compete with the spacies breaks the game. If the characters being buffed to compete ruins the game, then the only logical option would be to attempt reducing the overall power and potential domination of the spacies and those over-buffed few in order to create a slightly better balance overall where a good majority aren't made worthless by the previous character's buffs.

Please stop saying everything comes down to looking cool. That might be true for you, but I guarantee you that the majority of tournament players don't just pick a character because the things they do look cool. The viability and overall placing of the character matters far more than shallow things like their looks or how cool it looks to do things.

Everyone who missed my point, you play this game to have fun. You chose to win at it because it is fun. Any game can be won, but you choose to win at this because it is the dopest game out there. All im saying is that to tone down the dope factor on characters because its "easier" to balance would be pointless, it makes the game less worth winning.

 

[Narpas_sword]

The hell is 'dope factor'?

Is this a variable in the Fitcharacter.pac File?

(The point of the previous facetious sentence is to highlight that the devs don't do anything to change 'dopeness', but the player does it themselves)

 

[Fortress]

Stop there then or take the time to read the post, the connection between dope **** and people playing the game is undeniable.

I forgot that cool **** could only be managed in Smash.

Can you explain to me again that Smash is the only not-boring game out there?

Come back when your 'dopeness factor' has earned you any amount of money.

 

[C-SAF]

I am part of the subset known as 'people'
I do not play for 'swag', nor did i ever choose melee for 'swag'
I play it because I enjoy the style.
I play it because when I first got it, it was easy for mates to join in and learn.
I continue to play it because of the desire to be better.
I continue to play because of the friends I have who also enjoy it.
I continue to play it because in my group I still do well at our small tournies.
I continue to play it because i enjoy watching others improve and aiding them in doing so.

Style....enjoy watching.....enjoy it.....use whatever synonyms you want but the game is cool and that's why you play it. People does refer to you.

Dope factor, cool, enjoyable, again don't knit pick on vocab it all means the same and we agree on at least some level