Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[victinivcreate1]

Pal fox will not be as potent in PM

Remember, Pal had toned down versions of characters. Virtually every character was worse than their NTSC version. So Fox was still top because although he and everyone else was nerfed, he was still better as he had the highest potential.

In PM, the bottom tiers are overall much better and can now do work. The Brawl characters have been Meleefied and can now do work. Nothing in PM is particularly PAL-esque. Fox would actually drop to top of mid if he went PAL because PAL Fox is notably weaker than NTSC Fox in every area. If *basically* NTSC Fox is not even top 5 (or arguably top 10) in PM 3.02, then what do you think PAL Fox would be?

And don't say "oh 3.5 context", cuz lets face it. We don't know much about character to character breakdowns of buffs and nerfs. 3.5 context really only applies to PMDT as they know what 3.5 looks like.

 

[GP&B]

For like the 50th ****ing time, it's not about wanting to nerf them outright, it's about them not being immune to change to begin with.

 

[Fortress]

For like the 50th ****ing time, it's not about wanting to nerf them outright, it's about them not being immune to change to begin with.

This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.

 

[victinivcreate1]

For like the 50th ****ing time, it's not about wanting to nerf them outright, it's about them not being immune to change to begin with.

Nothing is immune, its about whether its worth it. Fox is defs not immune, no one is. But is it really worth to revamp a character in a game that is trying to act like Melee but make the "bottom tiers" a lot closer to the ability of the tops?

 

[Narpas_sword]

Nothing is immune, its about whether its worth it. Fox is defs not immune, no one is. But is it really worth to revamp a character in a game that is trying to act like Melee but make the "bottom tiers" a lot closer to the ability of the tops?

and we make the bottom tiers closer to the ability of the top, and then they can use those things on others and then they're considered a pain in the ass and everyone *******.

when instead, we can lower the potency of the tops.

 

[GP&B]

I don't think he needs a revamp, just an adequate reduction in KO power.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't think he needs a revamp, just an adequate reduction in KO power.

Up Smash nerf? Instead of 85, it kills at 95-100 like Brawl. Is that legit?

 

[GP&B]

That or more, yeah. I just think Fox has a disproportionate amount of KO power for how good he is at racking up damage. That's before considering the silliness of a lot of his other moves, but I'd sooner do the former before playing with anything that might significantly tamper with his style.

 

[Narpas_sword]

For fox, I'd change 2 things:

1. Make his up smash closer to PAL melee (which still feels like a swift kick in the sack) reducing it's damage output and knock back slightly.

2: give his shine no damage. and leave it as is otherwise. so it becomes only for positioning enemies/spiking/ frame 1 defense tool.

 

[GP&B]

2: give his shine no damage. and leave it as is otherwise. so it becomes only for positioning enemies/spiking/ frame1 defense tool.

IIRC, this is something even Mang0 suggested before as well.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

His lasers are NOT the best projectile in the game. They are so much worse than in Melee and M2K agrees with me.

I just want to point out, saying that you're right because someone at a top level agrees with you is not a good argument. It's a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. That's really all I have to say right now.

 

[Narpas_sword]

IIRC, this is something even Mang0 suggested before as well.

i vaguely recall reading it somewhere, no idea it was a mang0 thing. thanks.

 

[steelguttey]

2: give his shine no damage. and leave it as is otherwise. so it becomes only for positioning enemies/spiking/ frame 1 defense tool.

not possible, knockback is affiliated with damage. if something does no damage it cant have knockback.

 

[Narpas_sword]

not possible, knockback is affiliated with damage. if something does no damage it cant have knockback.

really?
i thought base knockback was there regardless of %

oh well.

 

[Ripple]

base knockback can be there even if a move does 0%

 

[Narpas_sword]

base knockback can be there even if a move does 0%

This is what i thought, but could only think up examples where a move does damage, but no knock back.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

This is what i thought, but could only think up examples where a move does damage, but no knock back.

I think Squirtle's original water gun and Mario's fludd originally did no damage yet had knockback.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Ah, yes, i was thinking that, but wasnt sure if squirtle didnt do damage.

Wind Waker taunt also pushes with no damage =)

 

[Ripple]

thats not knockback, thats essentially a windbox. knockback implies stun

the only thing that has knockback and does 0% is mario's fludd in brawl minus I think

 

[leekslap]

I just want to point out, saying that you're right because someone at a top level agrees with you is not a good argument. It's a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. That's really all I have to say right now.

No. If you've seen the PBS Idea Channel's take on fallacies, you are probably referring to the "Authority Fallacy" where you depend on people who don't have the authority to say that for a fact, like an uncle. But if your uncle was an expert on the subject, if say, he knew for a fact that time travel is not a linear timeline then it would give the argument more strength. M2K is a top player across all Smash games with a lot of wins and more knowledge than literally everyone. He's also arguably the best PM Fox, so if that doesn't make my argument stronger, then I don't know what does.

 

[Fortress]

not possible, knockback is affiliated with damage. if something does no damage it cant have knockback.

What.

He's also arguably the best PM Fox, so if that doesn't make my argument stronger, then I don't know what does.

Agreeing with a top-professional's opinion doesn't make you correct, especially if you don't know why they have the opinion they do.

"My dad works at Sega and said Sonic 06 was the best there ever was."

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

No. If you've seen the PBS Idea Channel's take on fallacies, you are probably referring to the "Authority Fallacy" where you depend on people who don't have the authority to say that for a fact, like an uncle. But if your uncle was an expert on the subject, if say, he knew for a fact that time travel is not a linear timeline then it would give the argument more strength. M2K is a top player across all Smash games with a lot of wins and more knowledge than literally everyone. He's also arguably the best PM Fox, so if that doesn't make my argument stronger, then I don't know what does.

What you did is absolutely an appeal to authority. You stated something and then said "So and so agrees with me". It doesn't matter what else you say regarding his knowledge because you're using that person's agreement to somehow justify that you are in fact correct.

What would make your argument stronger, would be information backing it up, explaining why you feel that way and why we should feel that way. I don't care who agrees with you or how good they are, it changes nothing. Without information to back you up, all you're doing is appealing to authority.

 

[Rhubarbo]

To interject into the present discussion:

Sometimes moves can't be salvaged through balancing. I think there are moves that posses inherent strength or weakness within the engine. Let's try to define moves by two qualities: behaviour and numerical properties. Behaviour would cover the animation and other novel aspects of a given move, whereas numerical properties would encompass damage, knock back, and other quantifiable values. Now, let's examine a move that's almost objectively bad; Jigglypuff's sing.

The problem with Puff's sing is that I reckon it can't be balanced through its numerical properties. It's key behaviour, completely immobilizing targets, is too polarizing. If it were effective, it would be a cheap move since it negates counter play - buffing sing's range or duration would make it too good and/or unsatisfying. However, in its current state, sing is useless. In cases like this, trying to preserve a move's fundamental behaviour is an up hill battle. Either sing's behaviour needs to be changed (e.g. converted into an off-stage slow, hint, hint), or it needs to be replaced entirely.

The same principle largely applies to strong moves, like Brawl Minus's version of sing.

 

[Binary Clone]

Fox would actually drop to top of mid

God forbid a character only be B tier instead of S tier.

Guys, the appeal to authority is irrelevant. The fact, true or not, that Fox's lasers were better in Melee, is irrelevant. What matters is how they play in PM, how they affect Fox's play in PM, and how that affects game balance overall.

Fox's lasers are still pretty damn good.

EDIT to avoid double posting:

The problem with Puff's sing is that I reckon it can't be balanced through its numerical properties. It's key behaviour, completely immobilizing targets, is too polarizing. If it were effective, it would be a cheap move since it negates counter play - buffing sing's range or duration would make it too good and/or unsatisfying. However, in its current state, sing is useless. In cases like this, trying to preserve a move's fundamental behaviour is an up hill battle. Either sing's effect needs to be changed (e.g. converted into an off-stage slow, hint, hint), or it needs to be replaced entirely.

The same principle largely applies to strong moves, like Brawl Minus's version of sing.

Sing is pretty weird, and is mostly difficult to balance because of Puff's other tools, obviously Rest. Without Rest, buffing Sing wouldn't necessarily make it massively overpowered, but Rest is such an important part of her kit that Sing is tough to balance. If it's useful, all it really becomes is a doorway to a free Rest hit. And that's boring and frustrating and, really, just kind of redundant, since its only purpose would be to lead into one other move.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Sing should behave like it is, but have the Rest hitbox too.
i.e., it hits like rest and KO's like rest. if you miss you can make them sleep, which is pretty much useless, still makes you vunerable etc.

Rest should then be changed to heal.

there are probably bad elements to my above ideas. i didnt really think them through. i.e i'm pretty sure that makes rest too safe.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

CAN YOU PEOPLE SHUT UP ABOUT FOX NOT DOMINATING IN THIS GAME ALREADY?

a) This is objectively false, look at the ****ing statistics.
b) I would like to ask how many tournaments Ivysaur or Link or even Lucas are dominating right now, (PF has won ONE major, in the midwest. Plasma won ONE monthly, and was summarily beaten by the player he defeated in GF the next two times they fought.) and yet people are CALLING FOR THEIR BLOOD. Characters do NOT need to be getting results to have stupid or bad design elements and merit changes. RESULTS HAVE NO BEARING IN CONSIDERATIONS OF CHANGING DESIGN, PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND.
c) Building on b), NO ONE GIVES A **** HOW FAR LUCAS OR IVY OR LINK WILL FALL IN THE TIER AFTER THE CHANGES THEY ARE MOST CERTAINLY RECEIVING; we already know about tether nerfs, a very detailed change in recovery methodology for Lucas, and there are almost certainly other nerfs coming, including a well-founded rumor about AGT having diminishing returns so Link and Tink's recoveries aren't ridonk. WHY DOES FOX MERIT SPECIAL CONSIDERATION IN THIS REGARD? MID TIER BUT VIABLE IS STILL A PERFECTLY GOOD SPOT.

Simply put, FOX HAS DUMB ELEMENTS TO HIS DESIGN THAT NEED TO BE LOOKED AT FOR THE GAME TO BE FAIR. His playstyle should be preserved AS FAR AS POSSIBLE in order to maintain PM's appeal to Melee players, but if after keeping Melee's physics, a good chunk of Melee's stages and mechanics and keeping most of their characters' playstyles and attributes the same, we lose a couple of players due to tweaks made to the top eight for the sake of balance, THOSE ARE NOT PLAYERS WE WOULD HAVE KEPT ANYWAY. Purists will be purists and little can be done to sway them; compromising the balance of the game in order to appeal to die-hard core Melee fans is ultimately not worth it.

Nothing should supersede the goal that PM professes above all else, BALANCE.

Second thing to shut up about: "We need years to figure out character metas!"

THIS IS NOT 2001. THIS IS A MOD BASED OFF A VERY SOLVED GAME MADE WITH CLEAR DIRECTION AND CONSIDERATION IN TERMS OF COMPETITION AND 1V1 BALANCE. FIGURING OUT THE META WILL NOT TAKE AS LONG.

God, this thread ...

 

[GP&B]

Also gonna bring up that Fox has been used to pull the win out in two nationals now.

 

[leekslap]

What you did is absolutely an appeal to authority. You stated something and then said "So and so agrees with me". It doesn't matter what else you say regarding his knowledge because you're using that person's agreement to somehow justify that you are in fact correct.

What would make your argument stronger, would be information backing it up, explaining why you feel that way and why we should feel that way. I don't care who agrees with you or how good they are, it changes nothing. Without information to back you up, all you're doing is appealing to authority.

Oh, I see. Well, the obvious one is damage decay. That hurt Fox more than Falco. Then, its just that there is better characters. Characters like Meta Knight and Link just have better camp or tools to deal with lasers. I know people think that characters received tools because of Fox, but for the most part, it could just be you seeing somethin you wanna see. In Melee, the fast chaingraby combo-y characters could keep up, but the rest had to approach, died really fast, and got combo'd to death. Naturally, a better cast means it isn't as effective. If the developers thought that a certain weakness needed to be fixed since it was very detrimental to the characters strengths not because of Fox. If Bowser didn't have his armor, then he'd be completely shut down by EVERYONE so they gave him armor to make him a slow tank you need to be careful with NOT because of spacies. If the developers think that camping would be good weakness then they'd leave it with a character. DK is a good example. One grab and he murders you but you have to work to get there. You see what I mean? I might just be wrong so tell me the omg-thats-becuz-fox gimmick.

 

[PlateProp]

Here we are, nearly 3-4 years later and people are barely realizing that P:M is actually Melee Minus.

What did they expect when you try to bring everyone up to the two most broken characters in melee?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Fortress, you play around the Washington/Montana area, might see you at pacific NW regionals, maybe :D

I think Fox/Falco are high tier for how they are right now, with some slight nerfs tossed around for them in project M, and I think they are fine how they are right now. Project M's top tiers are much more annoying then Melee top tiers IMO.

...even though I play Falco in melee. But I secondary Pikachu, so HA

 

[Frank Curtis]

As others have said in this forum (and lessons I've learned in the past when I first signed up on Smashboards last year), tournament results don't mean anything in terms of what characters are perfectly balanced or outright broken. I don't think we saw many Sonics kicking the **** out of everybody during 2.5 except for Wizzrobe. Same goes for 2.6 Ivy (Played by Denti) and 2.1 Ike (Anyone ever heard of metroid?).

 

[Alex Night]

I see the arguments about Fox not being overbearing because other characters like Mewtwo and Pit are dominating the charts and I'm like...

Spoiler

Sir? SIR?...
​

 

[Frank Curtis]

^ Yeah, kinda raises the suspicious eyebrow at times, don't ya think?

 

[Strong Badam]

2: give his shine no damage. and leave it as is otherwise. so it becomes only for positioning enemies/spiking/ frame 1 defense tool.

It would be significantly worse on shield in that case, which many Fox players seem quite attached to. Muscle memory for jumping out of it would also not work anymore because of the lowered hitlag.

 

[leekslap]

CAN YOU PEOPLE SHUT UP ABOUT FOX NOT DOMINATING IN THIS GAME ALREADY?

a) This is objectively false, look at the ****ing statistics.
b) I would like to ask how many tournaments Ivysaur or Link or even Lucas are dominating right now, (PF has won ONE major, in the midwest. Plasma won ONE monthly, and was summarily beaten by the player he defeated in GF the next two times they fought.) and yet people are CALLING FOR THEIR BLOOD. Characters do NOT need to be getting results to have stupid or bad design elements and merit changes. RESULTS HAVE NO BEARING IN CONSIDERATIONS OF CHANGING DESIGN, PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND.
c) Building on b), NO ONE GIVES A **** HOW FAR LUCAS OR IVY OR LINK WILL FALL IN THE TIER AFTER THE CHANGES THEY ARE MOST CERTAINLY RECEIVING; we already know about tether nerfs, a very detailed change in recovery methodology for Lucas, and there are almost certainly other nerfs coming, including a well-founded rumor about AGT having diminishing returns so Link and Tink's recoveries aren't ridonk. WHY DOES FOX MERIT SPECIAL CONSIDERATION IN THIS REGARD? MID TIER BUT VIABLE IS STILL A PERFECTLY GOOD SPOT.

Simply put, FOX HAS DUMB ELEMENTS TO HIS DESIGN THAT NEED TO BE LOOKED AT FOR THE GAME TO BE FAIR. His playstyle should be preserved AS FAR AS POSSIBLE in order to maintain PM's appeal to Melee players, but if after keeping Melee's physics, a good chunk of Melee's stages and mechanics and keeping most of their characters' playstyles and attributes the same, we lose a couple of players due to tweaks made to the top eight for the sake of balance, THOSE ARE NOT PLAYERS WE WOULD HAVE KEPT ANYWAY. Purists will be purists and little can be done to sway them; compromising the balance of the game in order to appeal to die-hard core Melee fans is ultimately not worth it.

Nothing should supersede the goal that PM professes above all else, BALANCE.

Second thing to shut up about: "We need years to figure out character metas!"

THIS IS NOT 2001. THIS IS A MOD BASED OFF A VERY SOLVED GAME MADE WITH CLEAR DIRECTION AND CONSIDERATION IN TERMS OF COMPETITION AND 1V1 BALANCE. FIGURING OUT THE META WILL NOT TAKE AS LONG.

God, this thread ...

Calm your **** dude! Even I wasn't that worked up about Saikyoshi's Dark Samus fallacies. This thread is for discussion, and that means not everyone thinks the same you do. I am THIS close to reporting you.

Fox does have an advantage of time. Lucas, Wolf, and Link are gods if played at the level of Fox and believe me they are just as hard to use if not more. The best Fox literally plays frame perfect and you gotta respect him. He's been playing for years and Neon has given us a mere glimpse of what Lucas can really do. Even in Melee, I and others think Fox is only second in command. Falco can literally keep you locked down with his lasers and practically unDIable combos. He has more range and he can capitalize off of things better than Fox. Off a shine against a good player, Fox will get some percent and a neutral stance while Falco will easily get a 50%+ combo EVEN if he misses a waveshine. Heck I've been able to rack up 20% even though I didn't even jump cancel shine! His techroll is longer, and believe it or not, Falco's recovery is harder to edgeguard because you can only cover one option at a time. Stay onstage he can side b onto the ledge. Go offstage and you risk getting spiked by it or whiffing if up b is angled well. DI as up as possible and you as a Falco will recover. Fox's side b is slower and more punishable and his up b is just as gimpable as Falco's. Fox has more options but Falco has the ones that work 100% of the time. The only reason people are ignorant ****tards is because Fox kills faster and "hees recovery iz butter". You want statistics, PC Chris, Mango, and especially PPMD have dominayed tournaments more with Falco. I have thought about this for SO MUCH time. I tried, I really tried to reason out Fox was better but I gave it to Falco. So don't come here all "God, this thread" because it isn't anything compared to what I'm feeling. At least say the nerfs you want to give to Fox instead of crying. Maybe it doesn't take time to figure out the meta but being good does.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Sing is pretty weird, and is mostly difficult to balance because of Puff's other tools, obviously Rest. Without Rest, buffing Sing wouldn't necessarily make it massively overpowered, but Rest is such an important part of her kit that Sing is tough to balance. If it's useful, all it really becomes is a doorway to a free Rest hit. And that's boring and frustrating and, really, just kind of redundant, since its only purpose would be to lead into one other move.

I think sing should be an off-stage tool for Jigglypuff. Like @ Narpas_sword suggested, sing's hitbox should be around the size of rest's. Offstage, this would mean Jigglypuff has a safe gimping tool - If Puff catches someone low, she can land a lullaby, doze the foe to death, and balloon to safety.

I suppose a new character state would be necessary for this to work. Aerial sleep could be the helpless animation coupled with snoring FX. Unlike helplessness, aerial sleep would end after X amount of time, but could not be mashed out of; it would last a set amount of time.

 

[Fortress]

Fortress, you play around the Washington/Montana area, might see you at pacific NW regionals, maybe :D

Hopefully. My crew was at NWM VI last May. I didn't do stellar, I was somewhere in the top 33%. 24th, I think? Our main driving guy is going to be out of state during that time for college, I think, but we'll try and make it out there.

 

[Leafeon]

I see the arguments about Fox not being overbearing because other characters like Mewtwo and Pit are dominating the charts and I'm like...

Spoiler

Sir? SIR?...
​

OhmygodaLucahfan<3

But yeah, same. The roster who's currently dominating is undoubtedly being changed, and if the people just below them aren't altered, they'll be left to fill the holes left by the 3.02 S roster.

 

[Fortress]

It would be significantly worse on shield in that case, which many Fox players seem quite attached to. Muscle memory for jumping out of it would also not work anymore because of the lowered hitlag.

Do you feel increasing its shield damage to compensate would work, or would that be a poor idea? Just something that came to mind.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't have any interest in joining the discussion. I've argued all relevant points from every angle already over the last 2 years. I just came in to explain why a suggestion wasn't feasible.