Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[GP&B]

If anything they should give back his first frame shine invincibility.

Is this like some sort of joke post because I'm not laughing.

 

[MHTak]

The thing is, even though Melee is very competitive within the context of it's top tiers, balance falls apart after you start using characters outside its top 6-8. I'd reckon to say only four of Melee's characters are universally viable: Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik. The following four's success is contingent and not necessarily in the hands of the player who is using them. Ice Climbers and Jigglypuff center around stringently punishing mistakes. Even though they haven't really been discussed in this thread, I think Jigglypuff and Ice Climbers are equally relevant to this discussion here - their designs are highly questionable. To a lesser extent, Falcon thrives off hard punishes, too. Personally, I would argue that Falcon isn't even top eight worthy, but that's another topic. Peach is relatively fine, if relatively weak. Everyone else, regardless of Amsa's Yoshi and Armada's Young Link, is not really viable.

I am not arguing abaut melee being balanced. I said that fox can compete against characters that are more problimatic (as you say it) than the balance of melee toptier would imply for him to compete against. They do not counter fox.

So, you can't really bait/camp Fox because his neutral game will eat you alive. But you also can't really approach Fox because his spacing options are above average. I suppose you could try to trade with Fox, but his priority will probably get the best of you. If a character discourages, by virtue of their innate superiority, interaction that is fundamental to the game, they are problematic.

Read the assumption: If character's strenghts are mostly based on commital threats or safety on commiting to a threat... a.k.a. might not apply if the strenght is based on say.. defensive capability for example. Foxes safety on approach comes from conversion into heavy pressure (combined with good escape options), not on positioning. See? even fox has to commit positionally to commit to a threat.

I presented you what the situation would look in the extreme case, which obviously does not exist, but you could still make some conclusions from it without going into heavy theorycrafting.

You are also wrong in that fox discourages interaction that is fundamental to the game, quite the opposite, foxes neutralgame pressure forces you to interact, to gain upper hand, or you might get hit. Whether you succeed is irrelevant, the interaction is there.

Many characters have been given tools against spacies, and these tools have been hated on for the greater part of one year now.

Having to design a hard counter to Fox isn't good game design.

Those tools have been wrong then. I have seen few added tools that are specifically good against fox. A hard counter to a character cannot be made by giving another character tools against it, that would easily make it overpowering. A hard counter must be designed to fight against the character's fundamental strenghts.

 

[MHTak]

Edit: pls internet..

 

[Kankato]

sod the melee community, theyre still playing melee. they dont get an input =p

PM has it's own following now.

There shouldn't be any shame in playing both games. The PM community should have the most influence over PM, but we shouldn't push away people transitioning from one to the other.

 

[Binary Clone]

Read the assumption: If character's strenghts are mostly based on commital threats or safety on commiting to a threat... a.k.a. might not apply if the strenght is based on say.. defensive capability for example. Foxes safety on approach comes from conversion into heavy pressure (combined with good escape options), not on positioning. See? even fox has to commit positionally to commit to a threat.

I think the side opposing you had it phrased weird, but I don't know how valid your argument here is. Fox doesn't have to commit at all to be a threat. He can just short hop lasers across the stage. He barely ever has to commit to anything if he doesn't want to. He can just short hop lasers and force his opponent to either approach or continue taking damage, without Fox sacrificing stage position or being more vulnerable.

 

[Narpas_sword]

There shouldn't be any shame in playing both games. The PM community should have the most influence over PM, but we shouldn't push away people transitioning from one to the other.

totally agree.

the '=p' signified that it wasnt a serious statement.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I am not arguing abaut melee being balanced. I said that fox can compete against characters that are more problimatic (as you say it) than the balance of melee toptier would imply for him to compete against. They do not counter fox.

Are you speaking within the context of Project M? Fox's ability to compete with the likes of stronger characters such as Mewtwo and Lucas isn't the question here - he can. The idea is that Project M has too many powerful characters because it tends to shift balance up the tier list instead of inward. Even if there are characters better than Fox in PM, it doesn't mean Fox, or the other characters, are properly balanced.

If this is not what you're driving at, I'm sorry, I just don't get what you mean exactly.

You are also wrong in that fox discourages interaction that is fundamental to the game, quite the opposite, foxes neutralgame pressure forces you to interact, to gain upper hand, or you might get hit. Whether you succeed is irrelevant, the interaction is there.

Okay, I'd rephrase my point like this: Fox has the ability to trap his opponents in a catch 22. If Fox chooses to camp, his opponent is goaded into attacking him. However, since Fox has better spacing tools than most other characters, the best option against Fox, who has been repeatedly justified as a glass canon in this thread, is to bait a mistake and punish him with a devastating combo. But since Fox is adept at camping, a Fox player can theoretically avoid the pitfalls of his main weakness by running and gunning. Thus, Fox has disproportionate control over the game.

Again, I might be missing your point since I don't exactly understand what you're getting at.

Those tools have been wrong then. I have seen few added tools that are specifically good against fox. A hard counter to a character cannot be made by giving another character tools against it, that would easily make it overpowering. A hard counter must be designed to fight against the character's funfamental strenghts.

Canon made a really good post about balancing around the spacy's fundamental strengths. It's on page 3 and quoted in the OP if you're interested.

Another problem with hard counters is that there's no definitive standard on how to distribute them. Does the whole cast get a counter against Fox, or should only one character, who is mediocre against everyone but Fox, receive the necessary tools to shut him down?

I don't think there should be any hard counters in the game, as all match-ups should ideally be 50-50, with the exception of some 60-40s/40-60s for characters that foster unique play styles (e.g. Snake).

 

[MHTak]

@ Binary Clone
Of cource fox doesn't need to commit to be a threat, no character really needs to, but when commiting to a threat, he does.

Laser being a threat is totally different question, since it only does damage at the cost of stage control and doesn' t give actual punish. Lasers are still a kind of a problem.

Edit: @ Rhubarbo
Having disproportionable control over the game does not discourage interaction, so I think we can agree there, but i remind you that we are still assuming that the opponent has only threats, and cannot defend himself. (The extreme)
Lasercamping for the win is not realistic anyway in reasonable stages, and you can't react to if the opponent is aggressive or passive by lasering really. (This assumes way too much perfect play)

I have read canon's post and it says basically the same thing that I do. None of the tools given actually counter a fox type character, and it says nothing about fundamental strenghts but 'yeah, laser is good'.

I also agree that there should be no 'hard' counters in the game.

 

[PootisKonga]

Personally, I feel the fact that a hard counter was rationally mentioned, as ridiculous as it is, means that there is SOME kind of problem

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Dear everyone,
If you legitimately are willing to give up on the entire game if one character is changed,
If you legitimately consider YOUR worth to this game to be inherently higher than that of the Ike players, the Ivysaur players, the Lucario players, the Sonic players, the Pit players, the Mewtwo players, and hell even the Bowser, Wario and other players whose characters have been changed and they have dealt with it,
If you sense of entitlement really IS that ****ing much,
You probably don't care about this game and its intended goals enough to merit consideration.

This is not hating on Melee players, this is hating on Melee players who don't consider this game worth their time and will always look down upon it no matter how little we change their beloved top 8.

This mod really needs to answer this question: Is this game being made for people who want to play this game, or not?!

 

[MHTak]

Are you speaking within the context of Project M? Fox's ability to compete with the likes of stronger characters such as Mewtwo and Lucas isn't the question here - he can. The idea is that Project M has too many powerful characters because it tends to shift balance up the tier list instead of inward. Even if there are characters better than Fox in PM, it doesn't mean Fox, or the other characters, are properly balanced.

If this is not what you're driving at, I'm sorry, I just don't get what you mean exactly.

This is exactly not what I am driving at.
My idea is that the power that the powerful characters have could be imbalanced itself (of course relative to itself). The question here is not: 'can fox compete against strong pm characters', the question is why he can, and I made an example that might answer the question, though I cannot be sure if it is the right answer.

edit: I think I realized now what got you confused. My point in the first paragraph was only to present the problem, but that was indeed a bit unclear, my mistake.

 

[Wazygoose]

Dear everyone,
If you legitimately are willing to give up on the entire game if one character is changed,
If you legitimately consider YOUR worth to this game to be inherently higher than that of the Ike players, the Ivysaur players, the Lucario players, the Sonic players, the Pit players, the Mewtwo players, and hell even the Bowser, Wario and other players whose characters have been changed and they have dealt with it,
If you sense of entitlement really IS that ****ing much,
You probably don't care about this game and its intended goals enough to merit consideration.

This is not hating on Melee players, this is hating on Melee players who don't consider this game worth their time and will always look down upon it no matter how little we change their beloved top 8.

This mod really needs to answer this question: Is this game being made for people who want to play this game, or not?!

Thank you. PM will only break its funk when it stops comparing itself with Melee. Sure that's how it started, but it's long overdue to just forget about its origins and step into its own.

 

[Joe73191]

Honestly the only thing they really need to change from 3.0.2 is to remove the glide mechanic. Other than that I would be okay with them not changing a single character.

 

[BJN39]

Okay, so I haven't gone and read all the posts here, (LOL way too many already for that. So blahblahblah somethingsomethingdon'ttellmeboutsometihnginthisthreadsomethingsomething.)

but I honestly think that it's time for P:M to move away from Melee to an extent.

They've already been doing SO MANY things that are foreign enough from Melee, it's not like we haven't already gotten complaints and discussion and thereafter CHANGE of many things, so I think not being confined to the need for a Melee-likeness could breathe healthy life into the design of the mod.

I mean, just look at some of the sudden ledge change mechanics. THESE aren't Melee. Why are they in? Also, auto-power shielding multi-hits. Why, again was that in?

tbh, the game is already SO different from Melee, that we shouldn't be using Melee as a 'backdrop' for design anymore. This game is gone to good enough it should consider actually taking a look at messes from Melee they endlessly turn a blind eye to.

If somehow tl;dr This: I think they should step away from Melee a little to improve the design. This may include cleaning up Melee's 'dieties' to have less ridiculous things. I say, "Why not?"

PS, messy.

PSS, RiP 3.02 Zelda.

 

[Alex Night]

Honestly the only thing they really need to change from 3.0.2 is to remove the glide mechanic. Other than that I would be okay with them not changing a single character.

ಠ_ಠ

I would never want them to get rid of Gliding. Ever. Even if Pit is an *** about it. Just give him the same rule as Charizard where it takes his jumps away from him when he enters Glide. Plus, the Glide mechanic helps with Charizard's air game. You take that away and you essentially neuter his most common ability to KO which is the Psuedo Sky Attack where he uses the Glide Attack to KO when trying to deal with opponents who can DI his Sky Attack combos.

 

[Bleck]

Of cource fox doesn't need to commit to be a threat, no character really needs to, but when commiting to a threat, he does.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

This isn't a legitimate discussion.
You lot don't have any more say on how PM is developed than I do, especially not on something as STUPID as this.
Like the team would actually do something like this.


Can we get a lock for this thread?
@standardtoaster

 

[Rhubarbo]

This isn't a legitimate discussion.
You lot don't have any more say on how PM is developed than I do, especially not on something as STUPID as this.
Like the team would actually do something like this.


Can we get a lock for this thread?
@standardtoaster

This isn't a legitimate request.
You don't have any more say on how PM is developed than I do, especially not on something as debatable as this.
Like the team behind a fan mod would ever make a game for their fans, **** me right?

Can you post an actual opinion @ MechWarriorNY

 

[RomeDogg]

Well personally I hate brawl and I have seen enough to dislike Smash 4. Project M is the next best thing and the last thing exclusive Melee and/or Smash 64 fans will get. So I am not wrong for having an opinion on the direction PM is going or having an opinion in general without getting attacked. I love Smash but I got the shaft when I purchased Brawl and I won't be purchasing Smash 4, I may try it out though but I am not paying for anything less than quality. I myself like Project M because it is like Melee. Thats just one reason a certain percentage of PM and/or Smash fans like it. I understand the fans branch from Melee fans to Brawl fans, hell I am sure some strictly Smash 64 fans like it too. People are aware that some Smash 64 fans stopped liking the sequels after smash 64 right? People like the games they like. Call it stubborn whatever but Smash 64 was the most combo orientated Smash title so I understand where they are coming from.

See I like Project M because all the good characters are back to their former glory and the poor characters are altered enough to stand a fair chance and those beautiful melee mechanics returned with merited additional mechanical changes for the upcoming release. So with that being said I am a PM fan but if it develops into a game that I don't like for example, changing the things that drew me into it in the first place. Then how do I "not care about the game" as of right now it caters to me to a certain extent. Thats why I do care and I will still care even when it changes to be something I don't like. At that time I just won't play it but will have my fingers crossed that I will enjoy its next release. So I am saying if it stops catering to me and isn't what I am looking for in a smash title then I shouldn't be judged for not enjoying it thus not playing it. I never hopped on the Brawl minus or brawl plus train because it wasn't what I was looking for. Then I found PM and bingo I was there like ugly on Sarah Jessica Parkers face.

I stopped playing certain PM releases where there were to many changes I did not like or agree with. Then I later picked it back up for later releases where they addressed those issues and they were altered or returned to my liking. Sometimes when I didn't quit I bit some bullets. So I try every release and depending on how it is determines if I will play it or go back to Melee in the meantime. One example I can think of is well I dropped Link because he doesn't feel similar enough to his Melee incarnation and about dropped the game completely. But then I thought well I still have Melee I will only play Link in Melee and use GnW, Bowser and my other secondaries in PM, problem solved. Then another PM release that I did quit was when GnW had those large pieces of meat when using his frying pan. I understand he needs/needed something being that he is one of the worst in the Game. But I just couldn't live with that change and I already fell away from Link so I quit. In the next release the issue was addressed and I was back on the PM train.

Though speaking of GnW being one of the worst in PM, it doesn't matter as much as a crappy character in other smash games. He can now win against higher teir character even if its harder. Its no where as hard as it was in Melee for lower teir characters to win. As GnW I don't struggle against fox. He has sick combos on fox and falco that can 0-death them. I struggle with Mario which is like a better version of GnW. Whatever GnW has he has something slightly better. I also struggle with Marth because of that sword spacing, I have to bait everything to even touch him or stand a chance just to do well. Link is also a bad match for me its hard to touch Link because of his projectiles and range. But that all is just part of the game/match ups and who I enjoy playing as.

Yeah yeah blah blah, sometimes its a struggle but the point is: Thats where a lot of the interest and excitement comes from in Melee. Seeing a Pro Pichu annihilating a good Pro Fox. Seeing aMSa destroying damn near everyone or keeping up with who he loses to with a lower teir character. I'm not saying deliberately make it so some characters are crappy just to keep that aspect in the game, it will just be there without anyone's control. Because as a community we do at the same time have to realize that perfect or near perfect balance is impossible in a fighting game. Logically we can only get close enough. But with that being said it still feels like PM is already the most balanced fighting game in existence. So great job PM team and thank you for everything. And yes PM team I understand you can't please everyone and I entrust that you understand that too but I can have an opinion thats whats beautiful about it all.

To finalize this stupid essay and to sound pathetic(unintentionally). I love Melee and I don't even like video games anymore, I despise them but I understand people need enjoyment and everyone likes different things, thats part of being unique as an individual. Even with a dislike for video games because I grew out of them, I can never say no to Melee. Its one of the most important things in my life. One of the top things I love in all existence I banked so much of my life into that game and I want PM to be the same. If I had a bad day Melee would make me happy and thats what it is about. I got my heart destroyed when I played brawl that first month and found its flaws, thats real. PM gave me hope. And don't get me wrong I know others have passion for things I don't. For example Brawl and thats perfectly fine. But sorry for being one of those "stubborn", "biased Melee Players", " "can't deal with change", or "place whatever term you want to use to bash me for something I love and having a difference of enjoyment" kind of people. Also fine my opinion doesn't matter but I don't have a huge list of things I love. So I will push for something I do. I had to bite a lot of bullets in this transition as did others in different things they like. Like Brawl lovers and Falcos reflector conversion to Melees reflector. So I have that understanding even if that player isn't a competitive one. But heres a short list of bitten bullets pertaining to myself.

-Link isn't where I would feel he is comfortable for me and playstyle at.
-Young Link isn't in PM (but thank god you brought back Mewtwo and Roy) but I have more love for Young Link
-The Melee recovery grapple system doesn't exist and likely won't in PM because of coding issues/brawl issues
-People hate on Pichu and Young Link with generic arguments that were also used against Roys and/or Mewtwos inclusion in PM. Therefore I know they won't return. But whats up with the double standard?

So how many bullets do I have to bite? How many do you? How many before our mouths are full and we drop. Then are have to walk away. Its choice and whats important to a person, I'm just saying respect that. Don't judge people on a difference of opinion and what they can or can not deal with. The direction PM goes is solely on the creators of the mod. Not everyone will be pleased no matter how much their opinion "matters". So I will respect the changes even if I can't accept them and have to move on.

 

[Bleck]

so was there a point to that, or

 

[RomeDogg]

Yep if Project M turns into something I don't like which would be a bad day for me and where I am coming from, then I can turn to Melee and it will make me happy. Oh and changing the top teirs/nerfing them from their Melee incarnations will be the straw that broke the camels back. Plus it was me expressing myself because everyone is entitled to do so.

Also I don't have a smart alec reply my post was pretty thorough my good sir.

 

[Kankato]

Yep if Project M turns into something I don't like which would be a bad day for me and where I am coming from, then I can turn to Melee and it will make me happy. Oh and changing the top teirs/nerfing them from their Melee incarnations will be the straw that broke the camels back.

If Project M cannot change characters because you would rather play melee, go play melee.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i find it sad that people are so associated with their top characters that they cant even imagine that they could learn a different character in a new game.

PM 4.0 - Melee mode:
take out all the stages other than the melee 5+1
only have Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, Peach, Falcon, IC.
Change everything so that it's exactly like melee. down to the model.

And there we have it. PM that melee people will be happy with.

On one hand you have people complaining that COD devs just 'copy paste' the last game.
over here we have melee vets going 'things too different wah'

 

[victinivcreate1]

i find it sad that people are so associated with their top characters that they cant even imagine that they could learn a different character in a new game.

PM 4.0 - Melee mode:
take out all the stages other than the melee 5+1
only have Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, Peach, Falcon, IC.
Change everything so that it's exactly like melee. down to the model.

And there we have it. PM that melee people will be happy with.

On one hand you have people complaining that COD devs just 'copy paste' the last game.
over here we have melee vets going 'things too different wah'

Easy way to keep Melee fans happy.

Melee mechanics return. Add new ones as well.

Thats what COD fails to do. There is never any new stuff.

 

[Narpas_sword]

They won't be happy with new things.

case in point: PM

 

[Giygacoal]

Wow, people here are actually civil about this subject. Well, relatively speaking.

 

[victinivcreate1]

They won't be happy with new things.

case in point: PM

Because PM is fulla jank. I.E: in 3.02, in 2.6, in 2.5, in 2.1.
If PMDT could balance without having crazy stuff I think Melee players wouldn't mind as much.

 

[Kankato]

Because PM is fulla jank. I.E: in 3.02, in 2.6, in 2.5, in 2.1.
If PMDT could balance without having crazy stuff I think Melee players wouldn't mind as much.

But the problem is the PMDT is not omnipotent. A lot of those characters were never meant to be that powerful or exploitable. It took a few months of rigerous playing to find that jank & since they only update in 6+ month cycles any fixes they make have long term ramifications.

Remember when 2.5 Like & 2.6 Sonic were **** tier from overnerfing? Let's try to avoid that if possible.

EDIT: I can understandnthe characters above turning people off of PM, but it's important to think about this game in the long run. There will always be jank characters in PM, but as time goes on their numbers dwindle. It's important to keep in mind future changes as you practice.

 

[victinivcreate1]

But the problem is the PMDT is not omnipotent. A lot of those characters were never meant to be that powerful or exploitable. It took a few months of rigerous playing to find that jank & since they only update in 6+ month cycles any fixes they make have long term ramifications.

Remember when 2.5 Like & 2.6 Sonic were **** tier from overnerfing? Let's try to avoid that if possible.

EDIT: I can understandnthe characters above turning people off of PM, but it's important to think about this game in the long run. There will always be jank characters in PM, but as time goes on their numbers dwindle. It's important to keep in mind future changes as you practice.

3.5 is looking like that it'll be better balanced. I've seen people suggest a lot more REASONABLE nerfs for characters in the future updates (unlike 2.5 where people would rage about Sonic), and PMBR has already been taking note of these things. If they keep this up we can definitely have the best PM to date, and one that may not need to be updated for a LONG time.

 

[Narpas_sword]

what is 'jank'?

is it 'characters that can outperform melee top tiers'?

how is stuff from melee not 'jank'?
i.e., shines, falco lasers, marths sword, sheiks chain grabs?

 

[Rhubarbo]

**Cut for space**

It's nice to see passion for Melee, I'm glad you shared your thoughts. But we're all passionate about Melee, here. The expectation I and many others hold is that Project M should be a better version of Melee. If this can be done by changing Melee's top tiers, I would not object.

Would you not like it if there were more options in the game? Would you not want more viable characters, more viable play styles, and hell, even more viable stages? If the price for this is changing 1, 2, 3, or 4 characters, doesn't that seem like a good bargain?

Remember, changing Fox or Falco doesn't mean either would be taken out of the game.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Yep if Project M turns into something I don't like which would be a bad day for me and where I am coming from, then I can turn to Melee and it will make me happy. Oh and changing the top teirs/nerfing them from their Melee incarnations will be the straw that broke the camels back. Plus it was me expressing myself because everyone is entitled to do so.

Also I don't have a smart alec reply my post was pretty thorough my good sir.

Only problem I ever had with what you said was that you said if Fox was changed, you would quit and go back to Melee, which makes it seem like you don't really care about this game much at all. No character should be immune from alteration, though with any hope, the PMDT wouldn't make him incapable of playing in a way similar to Melee.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Can you post an actual opinion @ MechWarriorNY

Yes.
This entire topic is an exercise in wasting time.
What's the point of this? Go play lol

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Yes.
This entire topic is an exercise in wasting time.
What's the point of this? Go play lol

I don't have anyone around to play with. T_T Conversing about the game is as good as it gets for me atm.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Yes.
This entire topic is an exercise in wasting time.
What's the point of this? Go play lol

The point of this thread is covered in the OP.

You can dislike the idea of the thread, but you shouldn't ask to shut it down.

 

[nimigoha]

I think the most important thing to me regarding Melee top tiers is that they play the same as they did in Melee and as they do now.

If you slightly decrease the killing power of Fox and Falco but keep their current shine mechanics and combo tools the same, I don't see what the problem is.

So what if Fox can't kill at 70% with an Upsmash any more. As long as it's still a very good kill move (which PMDT will no doubt always keep it as) I don't see the problem. In my opinion, considering Fox's run speed and being able to do it out of a run, the move startup and rage, and the sheer KB, Fox's Usmash is the best kill move in PM.

And as long as Falco can pillar and shoot lasers, kill reasonably well with Fsmash and Dair is still a spike, I don't see a problem.

I don't really see any glaring issues with Marth or Sheik though.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

*snip*

That sort of rhetoric doesn't stop people from whining about their characters being inadequate in other threads and it didn't stop me from lashing out here due to not being very tolerant of what I see as that kind of thing(and I'm biased, I'll say that much), but fair enough!

 

[RomeDogg]

I do like new things/changes from the Melee universe included in PM. I am not super thrilled about Turbo Mode its not my thing and I don't prefer to play it but thats a sick addition. People who like ridiculously inescapable combos from traditional fighting games can experience it through PM, a smash title. The whole crew battle mode is sick. Stage striking awesome. Buffs for crappy Melee characters, a good thing. Melee top teirs in their former glory is immaculate. Aesthetic changes are golden especially with classical/Melee outfits. Final destination is a beautiful stage through the PM Teams hard work. Keeping footstooling from brawl as a underused/situational move. More competitive play stages/returning Smash 64 stages. Visual verification you successfully did an L-cancel, etc. I just wish it had everything that Melee had to offer on top of what it brings to the table. Both are still very good games. But I wish we had Some Pichu, Young Link, a few more Melee stages etc.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Dude, can you change your font colour? it's near impossible to read on dark background...

anyway.

What would pichu seriously offer? and Young link?

What stages do you need when there are already a butt tonne?

 

[Joe73191]

The further PM gets away from Melee the less popular it becomes. Bringing back Melee top tiers to how they were in Melee is what drove many people to PM in the first place. Mess with that and people will go back to Melee. Making everyone else on the level of Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, Shiek, Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon while keeping those characters as close the their Melee counterparts as possible should be what PM strives for.

Peach and Captain Falcon are perfect the way they are. Even Fox and Falco are perfect the way they are (Though they could use their first frame shine invincibility back and removing the decay on laser damage). Marth is pretty good, in fact he too would be perfect if his Dancing Blade wasn't so different from how it was in Melee. Shiek should get the hurtboxes back on her needles and their Melee properties should return in full glory.

That PM has so many great stages and all the Brawl characters and more is great! In fact its AWESOME! However if I am using Fox or Marth and my friend is using Falco or Jigglypuff and we are playing on Dreamland, Fountain of Dreams, Final Destination or Yoshi's Story the match should be the same as if we were playing Melee.