Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[DRaGZ]

The difference between this and that is that every character could wavedash, where as not every character can pull an infinite.

Okay, lemme give you an example you'd understand then because you came from competitive FPS.

Rocket/grenade-jumping in Team Fortress was not intentional, it just came about as an exploitation of the way explosions and knockback physics worked. It was also class-specific.

The DeDeDe infinite grab is not intentional, it's just an exploitation of DeDeDe's grab cooldown frames and how move decay works. It's also character-specific.

Of course, the DeDeDe infinite grab is way deadlier than the rocket/grenade-jumping, but the jumping did give these classes some crazy options.

 

[BrawlLover]

it just shows you that brawl wasn't tested well, if at all even

 

[Kirio]

The difference between this and that is that every character could wavedash, where as not every character can pull an infinite.

Doesn't make a difference in this argument. You're saying 'If it isn't intended to be in the game, it should be banned'. Wavedashing wasn't intended to be in the game and wasn't banned, but was actually revered. Your argument was illogical and I proved that. What you're saying now has no relevance to this particular argument.

your stupid wavedashing was intended to be in melee just not to be used in the way it was.

So you're saying they intended people to be doing a short hop into a diagonal airdodge into the ground, just not to fake people out? I lol'd. They didn't intend to create wavedashing. That was my argument, not of whether or not it was a glitch. I did not even use the word glitch.

ohhhhhh!!!! soooo this is one of those stupid a$$ 08ers, man now i can finally tell them apart

Reported. I hate you, you contribute nothing and berate me for no reason. I have been here much longer than 08, I simply did not join until recently. You are actually 'younger' than me, so this is disgustingly stupid. Unless you're a troll, which wouldn't surprise me.

It was an exploit just not a glitch like an infinite is

I call call it an exploit of the timing of the recovery time after Dedede's grab. Doesn't matter.

 

[DRaGZ]

it just shows you that brawl wasn't tested well, if at all even

I'm sure it was tested, but not in a 1 vs. 1 environment, probably only in an FFA all items set on high environment.

 

[BrawlLover]

Doesn't make a difference in this argument. You're saying 'If it isn't intended to be in the game, it should be banned'. Wavedashing wasn't intended to be in the game and wasn't banned, but was actually revered. Your argument was illogical and I proved that. What you're saying now has no relevance to this particular argument.


So you're saying they intended people to be doing a short hop into a diagonal airdodge into the ground, just not to fake people out? I lol'd. They didn't intend to create wavedashing. That was my argument, not of whether or not it was a glitch. I did not even use the word glitch.


Reported. I hate you, you contribute nothing and berate me for no reason. I have been here much longer than 08, I simply did not join until recently. If anything, by simple appearance of our posts, they would probably confuse you to be the 08er and me to be the 'vet' or whatever nonsense you want to call it.


I call call it an exploit of the timing of the recovery time after Dedede's grab. Doesn't matter.

don't kid yourself...kid, you're messing with the wrong guy, try not to be as dumb before you quit life

best of luck to ya

 

[BrawlLover]

I'm sure it was tested, but not in a 1 vs. 1 environment, probably only in an FFA all items set on high environment.

the testers they hired are probably those dumb idiots that wrote the stupid 'strategy' book or whatever, helllllll they probably have the same concept/attitude as this kirio guy

MASS LOLS

 

[Aver]

Okay, lemme give you an example you'd understand then because you came from competitive FPS.

Rocket/grenade-jumping in Team Fortress was not intentional, it just came about as an exploitation of the way explosions and knockback physics worked. It was also class-specific.

The DeDeDe infinite grab is not intentional, it's just an exploitation of DeDeDe's grab cooldown frames and how move decay works. It's also character-specific.

Of course, the DeDeDe infinite grab is way deadlier than the rocket/grenade-jumping, but the jumping did give these classes some crazy options.

You mean one or two?

If you mean two then it was intentional.

If you mean one, then they would have taken it out if they saw the need.

It also never caused unbalance to the game, also infinites are not physics exploits like rocket jumping and wavedashing are. It's a fault in the program that the devs didn't see that could cause an unbalanced situation..

 

[BrawlLover]

they need to patch up brawl BAD, omgggg

 

[Aver]

Doesn't make a difference in this argument. You're saying 'If it isn't intended to be in the game, it should be banned'. Wavedashing wasn't intended to be in the game and wasn't banned, but was actually revered. Your argument was illogical and I proved that. What you're saying now has no relevance to this particular argument.

What I am saying is that every character could wavedash where every character cannot pull an infinite grab.

I'm not saying if it isn't intended to be in the game that it should be banned, like rocket jumping in Team Fortress Classic. They added it as a part of the soldier class in TF2. I know some things can help make a game better but how do you say an infinite that only one character can pull off helps?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

So you're saying they intended people to be doing a short hop into a diagonal airdodge into the ground, just not to fake people out? I lol'd. They didn't intend to create wavedashing. That was my argument, not of whether or not it was a glitch. I did not even use the word glitch.

I didn't say the word glitch either I don't know why you brought it up. Now that you did though if something isn't a glitch then it was meant to be in the game and the programmers where aware of it. They created and they knew they created it before the game was out. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209311

edit: also your being stupid simply by comparing wave dashing being as ban able as DDD's infinite in any criteria. wave dashing didn't make any match ups 100-0.

 

[DRaGZ]

You mean one or two?

If you mean two then it was intentional.

If you mean one, then they would have taken it out if they saw the need.

It also never caused unbalance to the game, also infinites are not physics exploits like rocket jumping and wavedashing are. It's a fault in the program that the devs didn't see that could cause an unbalanced situation..

How are infinites not exploits? You are arguing this as though the developers forgot to take out a button that causes an infinite to happen. Just because one is a physics exploit and another is a frame-rate exploit doesn't mean one is any less legitimate an exploit than the other.

And the DeDeDe infinite doesn't cause imbalance to the game. It simply causes imbalance in these particular match-ups.

 

[Kirio]

I didn't say the word glitch either I don't know why you brought it up. Now that you did though if something isn't a glitch then it was meant to be in the game and the programmers where aware of it. They created and they knew they created it before the game was out. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209311

An exploit is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that take advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software

It seems the post you linked messed up terminology a bit. Just because it wasn't an error in code doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be in the game.

And the glitch thing I said underneath your post was meant to be under Aver's. Sorry.

edit: also your being stupid simply by comparing wave dashing being as ban able as DDD's infinite in any criteria. wave dashing didn't make any match ups 100-0.

HOLY ****, READ MY POST. He said something to the effect of 'if it wasn't intended to be in the game it should be banned' and assuming that wavedashing wasn't intended to be in the game, giving it as an example shows why that idea is flawed. My GOD. I wasn't trying to say that wavedashing is bannable AT ALL, in fact I was using it to show the OPPOSITE. READ FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE

 

[Grunt]

I would appreciate it if someone could seriously answer me here.
because if My original statement is right, then all other arguments are void.

alright so this thread has grown 20 pages or so since i last posted.

My original statement was: these 6 would not be viable even without ICG in tournaments.
So far I have a very slim possibility of Samus doing decently in tournies without the ICG and nothing for anyone else.

Anyone else want to try and prove this point for the other 5?

 

[Aver]

I didn't say the word glitch either I don't know why you brought it up. Now that you did though if something isn't a glitch then it was meant to be in the game and the programmers where aware of it. They created and they knew they created it before the game was out. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209311

edit: also your being stupid simply by comparing wave dashing being as ban able as DDD's infinite in any criteria. wave dashing didn't make any match ups 100-0.

I never compared wavedashing to infinites, that was Mr. DRaGZ over there. I see them as two completely different things. Mainly cause of what I have said thirty times. All characters can wavedash but only one has this grab infinite.

And the DeDeDe infinite doesn't cause imbalance to the game. It simply causes imbalance in these particular match-ups.

EXACTLY THAT'S THE POINT!!!!!

It causes an imbalance between these characters.

That's the entire point right there.

D3's infinite has caused unbalanced match-ups and need to be removed from the game for the sake of the game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

How are infinites not exploits? You are arguing this as though the developers forgot to take out a button that causes an infinite to happen. Just because one is a physics exploit and another is a frame-rate exploit doesn't mean one is any less legitimate an exploit than the other.

And the DeDeDe infinite doesn't cause imbalance to the game. It simply causes imbalance in these particular match-ups.

is this guy really comparing wave dashing to D3s infinite...?

thats so dumb i have to take him out of my sig for that.

that dont even make no GD sence

 

[Aver]

I would appreciate it if someone could seriously answer me here.
because if My original statement is right, then all other arguments are void.

Donkey Kong is tournament viable.

Happy?

 

[Deadweight]

it just shows you that brawl wasn't tested well, if at all even

1) Brawl was never meant to be a competitive game (see tripping) why would they need to test characters under this mindset.
2) Lets do some math. How many characters are in Brawl? 35
How many grabs do each of them have? 4
So to test each grab for each character against each character it would take
34x35x4
4760 different grabs.
Not to mention grab release on ground and air to add another 3000 possibilities.
You can go ahead and test them by all means.

 

[DRaGZ]

is this guy really comparing wave dashing to D3s infinite...?

thats so dumb i have to take him out of my sig for that.

that dont even make no GD sence

I was comparing rocket-jumping to the infinite...>_>

Does anyone read what I write?

EXACTLY THAT'S THE POINT!!!!!

It causes an imbalance between these characters.

That's the entire point right there.

D3's infinite has caused unbalanced match-ups and need to be removed from the game for the sake of the game.

This is the problem when someone comes into the argument without actually reading what has already been said.

We've already discussed that character imbalance does not equal game imbalance.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It seems the post you linked mess up terminology a bit.

And the glitch thing I said underneath your post was meant to be under Aver's. Sorry.

Sorry but I don't consider wikipedia a credible source seeing as it also was just made up by random023489

especially when its talking about the wrong subject.

edit:

HOLY ****, READ MY POST. He said something to the effect of 'if it wasn't intended to be in the game it should be banned' and assuming that wavedashing wasn't intended to be in the game, giving it as an example shows why that idea is flawed. My GOD. I wasn't trying to say that wavedashing is bannable AT ALL, in fact I was using it to show the OPPOSITE. READ FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE

How ever wavedashing was intended to be in the game and you shouldn't have even bothered with that argument.

 

[Aver]

1) Brawl was never meant to be a competitive game (see tripping) why would they need to test characters under this mindset.
2) Lets do some math. How many characters are in Brawl? 35
How many grabs do each of them have? 4
So to test each grab for each character against each character it would take
34x35x4
4760 different grabs.
Not to mention grab release on ground and air to add another 3000 possibilities.
You can go ahead and test them by all means.

So true. Every game company is doing this now. Appealing to the masses is the most important thing.

Which is why we have to take balancing this game into out own hands.

 

[Kirio]

D3's infinite has caused unbalanced match-ups and need to be removed from the game for the sake of the game.

What do you mean 'for the sake of the game'? Because I disagree with it in all explanations of that phrase that I can think of.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The infinite and the rocket jump are SOOO different. Infinite is an instawin. Rocket jumping hurts you and in no way give an advantage that makes winning impossible.

Also Kirio. You're from my birthtown. You're cool man.

I lived in the projects on 2nd street. Represent yo.

 

[Aver]

What do you mean 'for the sake of the game'? Because I disagree with it in all explanations of that phrase that I can think of.

So that the other character can have a fair chance, even if they have a poor match-up at least they could have a chance.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1) Brawl was never meant to be a competitive game (see tripping) why would they need to test characters under this mindset.
2) Lets do some math. How many characters are in Brawl? 35
How many grabs do each of them have? 4
So to test each grab for each character against each character it would take
34x35x4
4760 different grabs.
Not to mention grab release on ground and air to add another 3000 possibilities.
You can go ahead and test them by all means.

I'm not sure games are tested anymore just look at gears 2 and how bad it turned out.

What do you mean 'for the sake of the game'? Because I disagree with it in all explanations of that phrase that I can think of.

ok sorry but now I really have to call you stupid. There is a view post link in every quote and you just made up some complete BS and put it my mouth.

 

[Grunt]

Donkey Kong is tournament viable.

Happy?

you have got to be the biggest fucking dumbass I've ever seen.
Give me proof before you go spouting nonsense.

I'm not spamming, I'm not being some whiny snob wanting attention to my posts.
It is seriously the only way to prove any of these characters would be better off or not. if not, there is no reason to ban it, if results prove otherwise, Pro Ban gets more ammo.

and since you sound like the kind of ****** who would bitch about finding results, I'll give you a head start. Bum plays DK and bans ICG in his tournies. Now go find your proof or don't say anything you prick.

 

[DRaGZ]

The infinite and the rocket jump are SOOO different. Infinite is an instawin. Rocket jumping hurts you and in no way give an advantage that makes winning impossible.

Also Kirio. You're from my birthtown. You're cool man.

I lived in the projects on 2nd street. Represent yo.

My God, if you don't understand the context in which I was saying something, please just don't respond. Read up first.

Aver mentioned that he thinks the infinite shouldn't be allowed because it wasn't intentional. He also mentioned that he came from the competitive FPS community. I gave him an example of something from the FPS community which had an unintentional effect as well but was not banned.

Jesus Christ people. All you do if find a small point somewhere and just pounce on it with no understanding of any context.

 

[Kirio]

Sorry but I don't consider wikipedia a credible source seeing as it also was just made up by random023489

especially when its talking about the wrong subject.

Fine. Perhaps you consider there to be separate definitions for smash, and that's fine, but as they aren't accepted norms, it would've been nice for you to state that.

edit:

How ever wavedashing was intended to be in the game and you shouldn't have even bothered with that argument.

That doesn't change the fact that you were wrong to call me an idiot for the reasons you did as you completely misread my post.

I was not being stupid, it was a valid argument under the assumption that wavedashing wasn't supposed to be in the game. I can easily replace the word wavedashing and it will retain it's standing as a good argument. As an already given example by Aver, I could say TF's rocket jumping. They actually implementing it in the sequel even though it was never intended to be in the initial game.

Also Kirio. You're from my birthtown. You're cool man.

I lived in the projects on 2nd street. Represent yo.

sup man. Good to hear.

ok sorry but now I really have to call you stupid. There is a view post link in every quote and you just made up some complete BS and put it my mouth.

I wasn't quoting you? What the **** dude? You're misinterpreting what I say and flaming me for it and it's god**** annoying.

Jesus Christ people. All you do if find a small point somewhere and just pounce on it with no understanding of any context.

I feel you, I really, really do.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I'm saying that there was no REASON to want Rocket jumping banned. There's a HUGE difference. If you don't want people jumping on your point don't make stupid similes.

Also Aver. That reasoning is stupid and you should feel bad. Gaming communities NEVER ban anything because it's not intentional. We only ban things that break gameplay.

 

[Aver]

you have got to be the biggest fucking dumbass I've ever seen.
Give me proof before you go spouting nonsense.

I'm not spamming, I'm not being some whiny snob wanting attention to my posts.
It is seriously the only way to prove any of these characters would be better off or not. if not, there is no reason to ban it, if results prove otherwise, Pro Ban gets more ammo.

and since you sound like the kind of ****** who would bitch about finding results, I'll give you a head start. Bum plays DK and bans ICG in his tournies. Now go find your proof or don't say anything you prick.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Isn't being ranked 16 in tourney results good enough for you?

And why are you so angry?

My God, if you don't understand the context in which I was saying something, please just don't respond. Read up first.

Aver mentioned that he thinks the infinite shouldn't be allowed because it wasn't intentional. He also mentioned that he came from the competitive FPS community. I gave him an example of something from the FPS community which had an unintentional effect as well but was not banned.

Jesus Christ people. All you do if find a small point somewhere and just pounce on it with no understanding of any context.

Just to let you know, I knew what you were talking about, and got a little confused after everyone else started to babble.

 

[Aver]

I'm saying that there was no REASON to want Rocket jumping banned. There's a HUGE difference. If you don't want people jumping on your point don't make stupid similes.

Also Aver. That reasoning is stupid and you should feel bad. Gaming communities NEVER ban anything because it's not intentional. We only ban things that break gameplay.

I am saying that this breaks gameplay, being unintentional was just a support for my argument.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm saying that there was no REASON to want Rocket jumping banned. There's a HUGE difference. If you don't want people jumping on your point don't make stupid similes.

Also Aver. That reasoning is stupid and you should feel bad. Gaming communities NEVER ban anything because it's not intentional. We only ban things that break gameplay.

That is exactly why I brought it up. If his only criteria for banning something was "it wasn't intentional", then stuff like rocket-jumping, which obviously should not be banned, should have been patched away long ago.

Is it so hard for people around here to...y'know...extrapolate a little for themselves? Does everything have to be spelled out?

 

[Aver]

That is exactly why I brought it up. If his only criteria for banning something was "it wasn't intentional", then stuff like rocket-jumping, which obviously should not be banned, should have been patched away long ago.

Is it so hard for people around here to...y'know...extrapolate a little for themselves? Does everything have to be spelled out?

When people start to quote the wrong post things tend to get a little confusing.

And apparently I forgot to mention well enough that I though the infinite broke gameplay. I only said that it was unintentional to help it out a little but apparently I shouldn't have said anything because all it has caused is confusion.

 

[Kirio]

When people start to quote the wrong post things tend to get a little confusing.

And apparently I forgot to mention well enough that I though the infinite broke gameplay. I only said that it was unintentional to help it out a little but apparently I shouldn't have said anything because all it has caused is confusion.

Yeah, I understand now. I thought the unintentional part was THE reason why you wanted it banned. That's how dragz interpreted it too.

EDIT: dragz, can you at least verify for me that my argument about wavedashing (under the assumption that it wasn't intentional) was good proof that 'it wasn't supposed to be the game' is bad logic? I think arturito just ****ing hates me because he initially misinterpreted my posts or something.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Fine. Perhaps you consider there to be separate definitions for smash, and that's fine, but as they aren't accepted norms, it would've been nice for you to state that.

That doesn't change the fact that you were wrong to call me an idiot for the reasons you did as you completely misread my post.

I was not being stupid, it was a valid argument under the assumption that wavedashing wasn't supposed to be in the game. I can easily replace the word wavedashing and it will retain it's standing as a good argument. As an already given example by Aver, I could say TF's rocket jumping. They actually implementing it in the sequel even though it was never intended to be in the initial game.


I wasn't quoting you? What the **** dude? You're misinterpreting what I say and flaming me for it and it's god**** annoying.

It's not only a separate definition for smash but Your definition isn't even talking about games its talking about computers.

Ok maybe I shouldn't have called you stupid for that but I can do it for that quote and you denying it. There is a view post link in ever quote go back and check it your self. It is annoying because it's your mistake.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I am saying that this breaks gameplay, being unintentional was just a support for my argument.

That's a HORRIBLE support for your argument.

 

[DRaGZ]

When people start to quote the wrong post things tend to get a little confusing.

And apparently I forgot to mention well enough that I though the infinite broke gameplay. I only said that it was unintentional to help it out a little but apparently I shouldn't have said anything because all it has caused is confusion.

Well, to address the "broken" part, there's a difference between breaking a match-up and breaking the game. Fighting game communities have different standards for such things than other communities (although FPS communities tend to just patch things away rather than ban things).

 

[da K.I.D.]

That is exactly why I brought it up. If his only criteria for banning something was "it wasn't intentional", then stuff like rocket-jumping, which obviously should not be banned, should have been patched away long ago.

Is it so hard for people around here to...y'know...extrapolate a little for themselves? Does everything have to be spelled out?

im sorry, do you know what thread you are in right now?

and just so you dont have to extrapolate, the answer to that question is yes.

 

[Aver]

Yeah, I understand now. I thought the unintentional part was THE reason why you wanted it banned. That's how dragz interpreted it too.

Time for bed.

I think 20 posts by me is enough for tonight, ya'll can keep arguing if you want but I don't think that there is anyone left on the pro-ban side, unless they've confused me into thinking that they're anti-ban.

whatever...

gooooozefraaaaaba

 

[DRaGZ]

Y'know the main problem with this thread is that no one except for a very few people are willing to at least read a few posts to get an idea of the current context of the argument before they start scanning posts, finding things that pop out, and responding to them with impulsive comments. It's no wonder that **** goes nowhere because people just want to say something out loud rather than try to actual make a cohesive point

im sorry, do you know what thread you are in right now?

and just so you dont have to extrapolate, the answer to that question is yes.

This is exactly what I ****ing mean. Everyone's just a bunch of twitch-response idiots.

 

[Grunt]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Isn't being ranked 16 in tourney results good enough for you?

No. people like Luigi and Ganon were C rank in melee, but did they ever win anything big? EVER? nope. not even close save maybe one time.
C rank is not viable in large tournaments to get any paying position or even a noticeable top position.
UNLESS
you can prove me wrong. I want every and all Pro-Ban persons to prove me wrong, or at least try. Seriously, you're all spouting theory and "what if" but do you not realize that Tournament data is what matters and what gets noticed? If MK won only slightly more tourneys than snake, Pro-Ban would have so little to fall back on since matchups are all subjective anyways. If you don't I have no choice but to assume that they'd be just as bad off as now.

And why are you so angry?

because you come off like an ***, trying to push my comment aside to continue rambling with everyone else.