Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[viparagon]

we should ban ganondorf since there is literally noone IIRC that he has the advantage on

@shadowlink- d3 can time the grab to beat luigi's bair. at least mario can fludd and FH fireball...

 

[Frogsterking]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF6Gfa63TaA

And the Ice Climber's infinite is different how? No amount of DI will get you out of the regrab.

I understand the point that DDD has much larger grab range and thus it's much harder to avoid grabs from him, but there is no real difference once the grab is landed (other than difficulty of performance).

@Viparagon-I don't know, maybe he can bair or something.

Well thats enough. It takes training to do it with IC's and then once people are good enough to do it their opponent can still avoid it for long enough to make a difference.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm curious to know what luigi can do to space himself, shadowlink.

fireballs, his aerial capabilities etc etc. Its not easy to grab a good Luigi.
The infinite sucks *** but its not the end of the world for him.

Before isn't the problem, but after most definitely is. It's an infinite that there is no defensive aspect to. Period. You get grabbed and you can press whatever you want and there is no result in any way. You lose full and complete control of your character.

You lose full and complete control of your character when you get death comboed by DK as Fox in melee.
Ban the death combo?
There were a number of death combos in melee all of which removed any contorl you had when it was being done to you.

Or how about other games like MvC2 where Magneto has a character specific infinite on Sentinel? Sentinel user loses complete control when they get nailed by the infinite.

Or what about GG where a number of characters have an infinite on Potemkin.

I don't even see how this is debatable at this point. Next time you play this match, every time you grab DK/Bowser, just let them go and tell them to SD. It will actually be LESS ******** because at least when they come back, they will have more time to fight you than the infinite would give them with the same result.

Will do.

edit: you can DI IC's throws in an effort to make them screw up.

I am sure that similar to marth, they cana ccount for the DI and like Marth, can just end it with a killing Fsmash once you've reached killing percents. So you still end up dying regardless of what you do.

@shadowlink- d3 can time the grab to beat luigi's bair. at least mario can fludd and FH fireball...

I am sure that Luigi can use his aerials to attack DDD and remain above the grab box. Not entirely sure I'll check it out on my wii once I arrive home.

It is gay that he ends up 9-1 because of the infinite, but we do see similar circumstances where charcters from other games end up 9-1 because of one tactic or another. Its the same reasoning behind them.

 

[BentoBox]

Mow: gtfo and go post your vids from chu's. >:[

Because even though those strategies dominate, it isn't a "do this or lose" situation. I mentioned how it was a combination of those two wher eit destroys the game.

Can it be said that is the situation with those stages? That the great majority of charcaters are forced to do the same strategy or lose?

Basically implying that if you don't camp on the side of the stage with any character, you automatically lose? Like, really?

Really? So under that logic the IC's infinite should be banned because its impossible to not get grabbed by them once a stock?

What is so very special about DDD's infinite that those characters lose every single ability to space themselves against the opponent?
Dk and bowser suffer most but Luigi, Samus and Mario all have the means of spacing themselves and staying out of grab range.

So tell me how DDD's infinite grab just completely destroys all their tools for spacing the opponent.

I feel like you pay no attention to what everybody (excluding me) is posting...

Because desynching, keeping nana and popo close together, and grabbing with their stubby little arms is as plausible in a tournament match as grabbing with D3. /sarcasm

I still think the most convincing argument for banning the infinite is that nothing good comes from leaving it in, while a huge amount of good can come from taking it out. Not just for the Castrated 5's metagames, but for the metagame as a whole (as CO18 stated, see his post).

Easily, if you go by a 100-0 system. Selecting Ice Climbers does not guarentee victory in a match against Mario. Selecting D3 in the same match guarentees a 100% chance of victory, provided that the D3 user possesses enough technical knowledge of the matchup to be able to infinite.

It's because the IC one is much harder to start, much harder to perform, and actually situational. Many stages also completely shut it down, like Norfair(shouldn't really be legal but eh), Brinstar, and Rainbow Cruise. Frigate Orpheon flipping over stops it. The tilting of Lylat Cruise can mess with it. Mashing out quickly can stop it before it starts. It's just too situational. Ban FD against them and you have a lot of options. The Ice Climbers also aren't that good overall.

Dedede's is just stupid and he's top tier.

D3's chaingrab limits your options more. Umbreon put it well when he said it limits the game to the point of threatening D3 himself with a ban. IC's don't limit your game as much, because you have a lot more options against them that do not necesarily end in a 0-death chain (partially due to short arm length and easy seperability).

EDIT: I just realized I said the same thing, like, three times. whoops.

That completely ignores what I said earlier. Ratios do matter because the extent to which it affects the game is always taken into account.
Hence why Akuma was banned. Do you honestly believe it was just because of his air fireball?
it was becuse he overcentralized the game and caused it to be "do this or lose."
DDD's infinite only affects 5 characters. So you have many other characters so not only does it not dominate, but it doesn't cause the game to be "use this infinite or lose", which is what happens with wall infinites.

I am not repeating myself again. See analogy. xD

1.Infinite dimension cape.
2.Wall infinites (you said so yourself how they were never tested)
3.Stage bannings.

its more along the lines of provable theory rather than simple theorycrafting.

1.You'll have to find a better example than that. What part of "you may remain invisible and invincible for as long as you wish" does not fall under stalling? We had set rules, and the IDC broke one of them. Not based on theorycraft.
2. Melee says hi! And we are still left with maps where wall infinites are possible.
3. We all played Melee didn't we? Why is it that our knowledge about maps from back then isn't applicable? Do you really think that at the first tourneys, we already had predetermined counterpick stages? No. Again, not based purely on theorycraft. Trial and error.

Did you even think of what you were saying when you came up with this analogy?
I am very surprised you would have the gall to even insinuate that the reasoning i use is even comparable to that of sexual discimination.

Syou are so intent on ignoring the nasty flaw in your analogy I'll address it.
Sexual discrimination was based on NOTHING. It was an ASSUMPTION of superiority just like racial discrimination.

Totally the same reasoning.
Get a better analogy.

Lol, like I said I was tired. But good job at totally avoiding my point and choosing to pick on straws instead. Here, I'll repeat myself again: 27 characters were prone to forms of infinites. We got rid of the issue for 22 of them, and did not take similar measures for the remaining 5. No amount of logic supports such behavior.

You are stating that the infinites are unfair to those 5 characters yes?
Is the IC's infinite not unfair to everyoe else when it is performed on them? Could it not also be done as a form of stalling just like DDD's infinite? Or a guaranteed death just like the infinite?

What is so very special about DDD's infinite that completely and utterlystops the character from doing anything before and after the grab?

I ahve yet to see you or anyone else provide justification as to why DDD's infinite is so very different from the IC's other than ease of use which is not a factor.

Pay attentionnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. The ICs are not conferred a 100:0 advantage against the whole cast because he can infinite everyone. But D3 DOES have a 100:0 advantage against DK. Why is that you think? Seriously, it feels like you're asking of us to spoon feed you with information you're perfectly capable of figuring out yourself, again, for the sake of arguing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It is the definition laid out by the SBR. You want to call it horrible, that is your discretion.

Also, combos are not excessive. They end in a reasonable amount of time. King Dedede's infinite obviously does not. You're taking the words completely out of context.

Again, define "excessive", define "reasonable".

I can say anything up to and including an 8 minute combo is reasonable.

That's why it should be done technique by technique, for example, using jigglypuff's up-pound to infinitely remain under stage, or using MK's IDK.

What you're trying to do is irrelevant. I could float under the stage with Jiggs continuously avoiding damage, making claims that I am doing it because I am thinking of a strategy to win, rather than stalling. I could even throw in some Bairs or Uairs when the opponent comes close to edge to edge guard me and say I am slowly killing him.

The fact that you can make that argument is the PROBLEM with the SBR definition, which is the issue that I'm bringing up.

This does not exempt the facts; it is stalling. I don't care if you're throwing me constantly to get me at a KO percent. With the amount of time that takes, it is wasting the time necessary for me to win via percentage once I am out of the throw, to the point where it is very unreasonable. I don't even need to argue what is stalling by defintion of a specific time limit. Any idiot should know that a technique that even promotes stalling over a minute is stalling. Your argument sucks.

How so? If you are attempting to kill a person and are simply using a combo to get them to a kill percent then KOing them you're not attempting to run down the clock.

And using the "any idiot" is the creation of a soft rule, you can never know if you actually did it, or just performed a tactic that was arbitrarily close to what is banned. It therefore, fails the "discrete" test.


I could reference either Sirlin to make my point, or reference actual law for literally thousands of cases where this happens, but I think my point is most easily made through this, are you familiar with "planking"?

If a rule isn't completely defined, it doesn't do anything.

 

[viparagon]

@shadowlink

all aerial approachs are sheildgrabbed and dees **** fireballs.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well thats enough. It takes training to do it with IC's and then once people are good enough to do it their opponent can still avoid it for long enough to make a difference.

Difficulty to preform the infinite is not a factor. Difficulty to set up the infinite is what makes DDDs chaingrab debatable in the first place.

You lose full and complete control of your character when you get death comboed by DK as Fox in melee.

No you don't. The DK player has to predict your DI at various points in the combo. If he predicts wrong then he's too far away to follow up due to poor positioning.

There were a number of death combos in melee all of which removed any contorl you had when it was being done to you.

This is true, or at least true in a sense (none of them resulted in immediate death, but they did result in rather simple edgeguards)

I am sure that similar to marth, they cana ccount for the DI and like Marth, can just end it with a killing Fsmash once you've reached killing percents. So you still end up dying regardless of what you do.

Fox and Falco do not reach killing percentages at any point in the chaingrab. Yes, you can land the f-smash, but it won't kill them unless they've continued to DI in that direction (instead of DIing the f-smash up like their supposed to).

 

[ShadowLink84]

Basically implying that if you don't camp on the side of the stage with any character, you automatically lose? Like, really?

Like really! And it affects a massive amount of the cast.

I feel like you pay no attention to what everybody (excluding me) is posting...

All of whic say one thing.

DDD's infinite is easier than the IC's infinite. Therefore it should be banned. Ease of use does NOT factor into the discussion. When its done its done, the outcome is the same.
let alone I am addressing you so addressing 5 other people a the same time is difficult.

I am not repeating myself again. See analogy. xD

Get a new one.

1.You'll have to find a better example than that. What part of "you may remain invisible and invincible for as long as you wish" does not fall under stalling? We had set rules, and the IDC broke one of them. Not based on theorycraft.

We have set rules onw hat is ban worthy and DDD's infinite doesn't break them.

2. Melee says hi! And we are still left with maps where wall infinites are possible.

The stages where the wall infinite is possible has only one wall (corneria) placed where your opponent can't force to come near or are temporary (delfino plaza)

3. We all played Melee didn't we? Why is it that our knowledge about maps from back then isn't applicable? Do you really think that at the first tourneys, we already had predetermined counterpick stages? No. Again, not based purely on theorycraft. Trial and error.

Different game engine means the behavior for those stages are different.
We didn't automatically assume Corneria to be allowed because of melee.

Lol, like I said I was tired. But good job at totally avoiding my point and choosing to pick on straws instead. Here, I'll repeat myself again: 27 characters were prone to forms of infinites. We got rid of the issue for 22 of them, and did not take similar measures for the remaining 5. No amount of logic supports such behavior.

I don't like repeating myself so just reference to the post where I responded and explained the difference between the two.
Cuase clearly you are not reading what I stated.

Pay attentionnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. The ICs are not conferred a 100:0 advantage against the whole cast because he can infinite everyone. But D3 DOES have a 100:0 advantage against DK. Why is that you think? Seriously, it feels like you're asking of us to spoon feed you with information you're perfectly capable of figuring out yourself, again, for the sake of arguing.

So you are saying that despite the fact that DDD's infinite is the same principle as IC's, that the advantage he obtains make its ban worthy?

Okay then, Ban fireball spam for when E ,Honda faces those fireball uisers

 

[1048576]

or how bout we get rid of a simple design flaw so a character can't get counterpicked 2/3 times? 5 chars vs. design flaw... I'd rather do without the design flaw

You still have the five characters. It's just now they have another disadvantaged matchup. Big deal. I'd rather not ban things that we don't have to.

 

[CO18]

Before isn't the problem, but after most definitely is. It's an infinite that there is no defensive aspect to. Period. You get grabbed and you can press whatever you want and there is no result in any way. You lose full and complete control of your character.

I don't even see how this is debatable at this point. Next time you play this match, every time you grab DK/Bowser, just let them go and tell them to SD. It will actually be LESS ******** because at least when they come back, they will have more time to fight you than the infinite would give them with the same result.

edit: you can DI IC's throws in an effort to make them screw up.

LMFAO. I grabbed you now go Suicide. Seriously that would be better for them than this lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

You still have the five characters. It's just now they have another disadvantaged matchup. Big deal. I'd rather not ban things that we don't have to.

....

This isn't like all the other bad match-ups where the character's movesets outright dominate the other. These are only hard counters because of an infinite, an easy to execute infinite that can be done on the unfortunate five. This outright makes them nonviable for a tournament scene because anyone can magically pull out DDD each round, putting several layers of brick walls to break through. That means you have to use your secondary at the start of each round to avoid the easy button. When you do that, you are no longer a main of the unfortunate five.

Btw, if you wanted to ban Metaknight but not this, then you're ****ing ********.

 

[viparagon]

all characters have methods of dealing with the ICs infinite. Luigi, dk, and Bowser do not have methods of dealing with d3's

 

[Dark Sonic]

All of whic say one thing.

DDD's infinite is easier than the IC's infinite. Therefore it should be banned. Ease of use does NOT factor into the discussion. When its done its done, the outcome is the same.
let alone I am addressing you so addressing 5 other people a the same time is difficult.

I agree that ease of performance should not factor into the discussion. But what about ease of initiation? Why were so many walled and walk off stages banned in melee? They didn't make Fox's infinite easier to do, they made it easier to land on people.

Could the same principle not serve to differentiate Ice Climber's and DDD's infinites? DDDs grab range makes his infinite much more likely to actually be landed in a match and makes it much more important when discussing matchups.

 

[BentoBox]

Shadow, you bring up points that have been refuted countless times.... Umbreon took you up on that D3 vs IC comparison, so why push forth the same reasoning against me? Seriously...

Melee fox 100:0d the whole cast because he could drillshine to 999%, oh wait. Ease of use is not a factor amirite. Of course it is. But that's not even the point.

edit: So now, your argument is that D3's CG shouldn't be banned if ICs isn't. So if it was you would be for the ban? What a major step back. ._.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i just realised something

the thing that we are trying to ban is a reality, people who have no knowledge of any of D3s attributes, can, will, AND ARE CPing people who have been maining and working with one of those 5 characters since launch and are 3 stocking them because of this move.

The thing that people against the ban compare it to is theory. there has NOT ONCE been a tourney where an IC player won by 3stocking and infiniting every person he played against. the idea that if you ban D3s infinite you have to ban ICs, is theory craft because the effects that would cause people to want to ban IC infinites have never happened, i can garantee you that some where, some random ness/wolf/link main switched to D3 against one of these five and beat an opponent that was much higher in skill level than them.

 

[viparagon]

i just realised something

the thing that we are trying to ban is a reality, people who have no knowledge of any of D3s attributes, can, will, AND ARE CPing people who have been maining and working with one of those 5 characters since launch and are 3 stocking them because of this move.

The thing that people against the ban compare it to is theory. there has NOT ONCE been a tourney where an IC player won by 3stocking and infiniting every person he played against. the idea that if you ban D3s infinite you have to ban ICs, is theory craft because the effects that would cause people to want to ban IC infinites have never happened, i can garantee you that some where, some random ness/wolf/link main switched to D3 against one of these five and beat an opponent that was much higher in skill level than them.

shadowlink luvs theorycraft

perfect shielding both hits of pits fsmash is easy, while punishing lucarios is impossible?

 

[CO18]

WTF are you guys talking about. It is very easy to implement places have already done it.

And you're argument still fails shadowlink that it isnt universal.

Again if he did this to everyone except metaknight and olimar or something. You can CP and it isnt universal so you believe it shouldnt be banned then and we all should just quit playing.

 

[Ulevo]

Again, define "excessive", define "reasonable".

I can say anything up to and including an 8 minute combo is reasonable.

That's why it should be done technique by technique, for example, using jigglypuff's up-pound to infinitely remain under stage, or using MK's IDK.

You want me to define reasonable? I will. 30 seconds and over is unreasonable. Going past 30 seconds is excessive. That is my personal view, so there you go.

We shouldn't even be arguing about this. Just because the definitions are left up to the discretion of the individual at hand, no one in this board with half a brain would even argue that a technique that easily takes control away from a character past thirty seconds at a time is unreasonable. It simply isn't. You're playing with words to win an argument, rather than arguing the topic directly.

If you post again with this same strategy to debate, I will completely ignore your post. Actually address the points being made.

The fact that you can make that argument is the PROBLEM with the SBR definition, which is the issue that I'm bringing up.

You can't make that argument. No tournament organizer would ever allow it to happen. I was pointing out the flaw in your logic, and using your statement to coexist with the example I gave. I was not making a mockery of the SBR rules.

How so? If you are attempting to kill a person and are simply using a combo to get them to a kill percent then KOing them you're not attempting to run down the clock.

You're assuming what the player is going to do and using it as an argument. You can't assume the player won't use this to stall. You also can't argue that while accumulating damage, King Dedede isn't stalling, even if the intent for stalling is not present with the player performing the infinite.

What qualifies as stalling isn't just the amount of time you stall for. It is the method as well. In order to stall, you need to be avoiding conflict of any kind, and be in a position where your opponent either cannot harm you, or cannot do so without serious risk. The amount of time is debatable, but the rest of the criteria is clear cut and concise.

King Dedede's infinite meets those criteria. This isn't a combo that ends. This is an infinite that King Dedede ends whenever the **** he wants. You have no argument here at all.

 

[da K.I.D.]

hes wayy too good at being a devils advocate...

or is it that hes really BAD at it?

 

[bobson]

And the Ice Climber's infinite is different how? No amount of DI will get you out of the regrab.

I understand the point that DDD has much larger grab range and thus it's much harder to avoid grabs from him, but there is no real difference once the grab is landed (other than difficulty of performance).

The Ice Climbers' infinite grab requires both Climbers right next to eachother, a favorable stage position, a string of commands with timing difficult enough for even top-level ICs to fudge it frequently, and, of course, a grab from their tiny arms.
Dedede's infinite grab requires a grab from his obnoxiously huge range and two commands with easy enough timing that someone who has never played Dedede before can easily 3-stock anyone he can infinite.
That's why the Climbers aren't 90:10 on everyone they can infinite and Dedede is.

This point has been made and refuted at least three times before this, but such is the course of threads like these.

 

[HeroMystic]

i just realised something

the thing that we are trying to ban is a reality, people who have no knowledge of any of D3s attributes, can, will, AND ARE CPing people who have been maining and working with one of those 5 characters since launch and are 3 stocking them because of this move.

The thing that people against the ban compare it to is theory. there has NOT ONCE been a tourney where an IC player won by 3stocking and infiniting every person he played against. the idea that if you ban D3s infinite you have to ban ICs, is theory craft because the effects that would cause people to want to ban IC infinites have never happened, i can garantee you that some where, some random ness/wolf/link main switched to D3 against one of these five and beat an opponent that was much higher in skill level than them.

Actually, the anti-ban doesn't want to ban it because they don't care since it doesn't affect them.

The reason why people wanted Metaknight banned is because he was seemingly heavily difficult to beat because he shut out plenty of options, and he did this to the large majority, if not all the cast. Despite the fact that all the characters have a fighting chance and can defend themselves against Metaknight, people were willing to quit the game if he wasn't banned.

However, when it comes to this, it only affects 1/7th of the cast, so now it's a "tough luck. Don't main a character you like to a play." Although DDD obviously destroys any and all options once the grab happens, and there is no reliable way whatsoever to defend against a grab.

That's how human nature works. No one cares unless it affects them. If DDD infinited the top and high tier characters it'd be banned in heartbeat.

And this is why the majority of Smashboards are stupid. GG guys.

 

[Ulevo]

Hell. Many of the Ice Climbers Chain Grabs can be escaped by button mashing because of how long they take to execute in between throws. I once escaped a Chain Grab at 120% before being USmashed. King Dedede won't let you do that because the amount of frames in which he isn't using DThrow/Grab Jab is too small a window for you to be able to break free.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The Ice Climbers' infinite grab requires both Climbers right next to eachother, a favorable stage position, a string of commands with timing difficult enough for even top-level ICs to fudge it frequently, and, of course, a grab from their tiny arms.
Dedede's infinite grab requires a grab from his obnoxiously huge range and two commands with easy enough timing that someone who has never played Dedede before can easily 3-stock anyone he can infinite.
That's why the Climbers aren't 90:10 on everyone they can infinite and Dedede is.

This point has been made and refuted at least three times before this, but such is the course of threads like these.

You do realize that difficulty of execution is not a factor right? What I was arguing was that once the conditions for the infinite are met, they are virtually the same. I was simply pointing out a flaw in his logic and providing what would be a much stronger case to argue (difficulty of initiation).

If you had read the "I understand that DDD has much larger grab range...." then you would've seen that.

Hell. Many of the Ice Climbers Chain Grabs can be escaped by button mashing because of how long they take to execute in between throws. I once escaped a Chain Grab at 120% before being USmashed. King Dedede won't let you do that because the amount of frames in which he isn't using DThrow/Grab Jab is too small a window for you to be able to break free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QdXc6MuDw
2:51.

Doesn't DDD need to do at least 2 grab attacks on each throw in order to sustain the infinite? Apparently that's more than enough time to break free if you see the grab comming. So I guess people just have to get better at button mashing to break out of grabs.

The chaingrab would still work, but the infinite would not.

 

[Anther]

Actually, the anti-ban doesn't want to ban it because they don't care since it doesn't affect them.

The reason why people wanted Metaknight banned is because he was seemingly heavily difficult to beat because he shut out plenty of options, and he did this to the large majority, if not all the cast. Despite the fact that all the characters have a fighting chance and can defend themselves against Metaknight, people were willing to quit the game if he wasn't banned.

However, when it comes to this, it only affects 1/7th of the cast, so now it's a "tough luck. Don't main a character you like to a play." Although DDD obviously destroys any and all options once the grab happens, and there is no reliable way whatsoever to defend against a grab.

That's how human nature works. No one cares unless it affects them. If DDD infinited the top and high tier characters it'd be banned in heartbeat.

And this is why the majority of Smashboards are stupid. GG guys.

This guy is right. EXTREMELY so. In other words everyone's douchbags.

Hell. Many of the Ice Climbers Chain Grabs can be escaped by button mashing because of how long they take to execute in between throws. I once escaped a Chain Grab at 120% before being USmashed. King Dedede won't let you do that because the amount of frames in which he isn't using DThrow/Grab Jab is too small a window for you to be able to break free.

The first part just generally isn't true. There really isn't enough time if the IC is CGing right XD. If they get greedy then sure. The main argument for ICs is that their CG game is possible to take away

 

[TLMSheikant]

ICS take skill. DDD's doesnt. I dont know how people can even argue about this.

 

[CO18]

Actually, the anti-ban doesn't want to ban it because they don't care since it doesn't affect them.

The reason why people wanted Metaknight banned is because he was seemingly heavily difficult to beat because he shut out plenty of options, and he did this to the large majority, if not all the cast. Despite the fact that all the characters have a fighting chance and can defend themselves against Metaknight, people were willing to quit the game if he wasn't banned.

However, when it comes to this, it only affects 1/7th of the cast, so now it's a "tough luck. Don't main a character you like to a play." Although DDD obviously destroys any and all options once the grab happens, and there is no reliable way whatsoever to defend against a grab.

That's how human nature works. No one cares unless it affects them. If DDD infinited the top and high tier characters it'd be banned in heartbeat.

And this is why the majority of Smashboards are stupid. GG guys.

I will just periodically quote and repost this now.

 

[chic]

Actually, the anti-ban doesn't want to ban it because they don't care since it doesn't affect them.

The reason why people wanted Metaknight banned is because he was seemingly heavily difficult to beat because he shut out plenty of options, and he did this to the large majority, if not all the cast. Despite the fact that all the characters have a fighting chance and can defend themselves against Metaknight, people were willing to quit the game if he wasn't banned.

However, when it comes to this, it only affects 1/7th of the cast, so now it's a "tough luck. Don't main a character you like to a play." Although DDD obviously destroys any and all options once the grab happens, and there is no reliable way whatsoever to defend against a grab.

That's how human nature works. No one cares unless it affects them. If DDD infinited the top and high tier characters it'd be banned in heartbeat.

And this is why the majority of Smashboards are stupid. GG guys.

will you marry me?

 

[camzaman]

Heromystic is right. Anther is right. Ban the infinite. How does Bum's area ban the infinite? Their method's been in use for some time now so I would think we should consult that...

 

[Ulevo]

Doesn't DDD need to do at least 2 grab attacks on each throw in order to sustain the infinite? Apparently that's more than enough time to break free if you see the grab comming. So I guess people just have to get better at button mashing to break out of grabs.

The chaingrab would still work, but the infinite would not.

King Dedede only needs to add one Grab Jab in between throws to sustain the infinite, and that is against three of the five characters. This is normally not enough time unless at really low percents.

 

[viparagon]

King Dedede only needs to add one Grab Jab in between throws to sustain the infinite, and that is against three of the five characters. This is normally not enough time unless at really low percents.

which characters??

 

[HeroMystic]

which characters??

Mario, Luigi, and Samus.

and lol @ all the reposts. I wish that was my 2k post.

 

[Master Raven]

All you have to do is to simply not pummel with the infinite until you get to around mid % where you can safely pummel at least once without having to worry about someone breaking out of it. You generally shouldn't pummel at very low % anyway.

 

[da K.I.D.]

did some douchebag really just pull the "get better" card?

who ever said that, i am disgusted in you and you have lost all my respect

 

[KevinM]

I wanted to make an allusion to wobbling in melee and then saw its been done like forty times.

This thread should be locked as its just running around in circles at this point.

 

[viparagon]

yeah, it seems if proban won...(or we just posted more )

 

[Anther]

ICS take skill. DDD's doesnt. I dont know how people can even argue about this.

That's irrelevant. ICs is limited. I'm not generally that upset when they get a grab even though they have a vast advantage over my main in terms of grab spacing XD. You have the option of outspacing them generally and playing a game to keep nana away.
I just learned how to consistently get their cg from 0 to death without giving time for a break in the hour break I have between classes. It's not difficult enough to even make that argument as I'm sure DDD's probably takes about the same time commitment to learn. It's just kinda, ya know, absolute?

 

[Master Raven]

I got the DDD infinite down within less than a minute against DK.

>_>

It's much easier if you use the C-stick though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

That's irrelevant. ICs is limited. I'm not generally that upset when they get a grab even though they have a vast advantage over my main in terms of grab spacing XD. You have the option of outspacing them generally and playing a game to keep nana away.
I just learned how to consistently get their cg from 0 to death without giving time for a break in the hour break I have between classes. It's not difficult enough to even make that argument as I'm sure DDD's probably takes about the same time commitment to learn. It's just kinda, ya know, absolute?

corrections.
1. D3s infinite takes literally 2 minutes to perfect. 1 minute 30 seconds for mario, luigi, DK and samus and 30 seconds for bowser.
2. you took 1 hour to learn 1 0-death string on one character.
there 38 different characters to learn the timing for, 37 cus IC cant infinite ICs.
theres about 5 different variations of alternating grabs.
flat stages like BF and FD have to be done differently than stages with slopes like YI(B) and lylat.
so 1 hour times 37 times 5 times 2=
370 hours to completely perfect IC chain grabs on the entire cast.
and thats only taking into account 3 different stages, theres a whole bunch more stages that you could factor into this math.
so are you telling me that 2 minutes of D3 practice is comparable to 370 hours of IC practice

thats dumb

 

[Dark Sonic]

did some douchebag really just pull the "get better" card?

who ever said that, i am disgusted in you and you have lost all my respect

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QdXc6MuDw
2:51
Got out after one pummel at 112%

It's possible and on video. So unless for some reason you can't do it with those 5 character (but you can do it with wario), then...get better.

If I'm wrong on any of this then I'll take it back, but as for right now it is a valid point.

King Dedede only needs to add one Grab Jab in between throws to sustain the infinite, and that is against three of the five characters. This is normally not enough time unless at really low percents.

Well, unless Wario breaks out of grabs faster than other characters (or if it's based on weight which is possible), it's possible to get out after one pummel under 100%.

so are you telling me that 2 minutes of D3 practice is comparable to 370 hours of IC practice

thats dumb

Nobody is saying that. What they're saying is that ease of performance does not matter, because both are humanly possible and can both be perfected. Therefore, both would have the same effect when landed (death). What you really should be focusing on is the fact that IC's infinite is much more difficult to actually set up, so it has less of an impact on matches.

 

[Ulevo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QdXc6MuDw
2:51
Got out after one pummel at 112%

It's possible and on video. So unless for some reason you can't do it with those 5 character (but you can do it with wario), then...get better.

If I'm wrong on any of this then I'll take it back, but as for right now it is a valid point.



Well, unless Wario breaks out of grabs faster than other characters (or if it's based on weight which is possible), it's possible to get out after one pummel under 100%.



Nobody is saying that. What they're saying is that ease of performance does not matter, because both are humanly possible and can both be perfected. Therefore, both would have the same effect when landed (death). What you really should be focusing on is the fact that IC's infinite is much more difficult to actually set up, so it has less of an impact on matches.

This needs to be properly tested. As it stands now, there is no confirmation as to how this works. Maybe if M2K buffered another DThrow it wouldn't have worked. We can't be sure. In my experience, I could never get out of said throw unless I was under at least 25%, and I mash quite hard.