cutter
Smash Champion
D3 can also do this to DK and I think on Mario/Luigi/Samus as well.Thats only on bowser and were just talking about infinites. Not really long chaingrabs.
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D3 can also do this to DK and I think on Mario/Luigi/Samus as well.Thats only on bowser and were just talking about infinites. Not really long chaingrabs.
Youre right about DK but he definitley cant do it to mario/luigi/samus.D3 can also do this to DK and I think on Mario/Luigi/Samus as well.
First off, Melee was a completely different game. Many characters had Chain Grabs that lead to death. None of them, excluding Wobbling, were extensive. You can't even begin to compare the two. Sheiks DThrow or Marths UThrow didn't last nearly as long.Then what about the combos in melee?
Or Sheik's CG in melee?
let alone that i can just say "I am getting him to killing percents.
you can't twist it either.
I am sorry but why would DDD go up to 300% with the infinite when he can kill the opponent off before that?
I don't have a wi with me currently can you bring up DDD's killing percents for his throws?
honda in Sf2 goes 90-10 against fireball users except Dhalsim. ban the fireball usage from those characters because its sooo unfair.You are SO right. We should not prevent a character from using the full extent of their abilities. Therefore, you must want Meta Knight's infinite dimensional cape unbanned. That's an ability of his. It's not fair that he can't make use of it.
Now, how can you sit there and tell us that around a minute and a half of D3's infinite from 0 to 300 can't be considered stalling? It DOES unfairly create almost 100 to 0 match-ups vs. characters that can be infinited.
Destroying competitiveness=no viability from anything except that character and only using that one strategy to win.it destroys competitiveness because it lacks any decent level of skill. Destroying competition between two characters =/= breaking the game.
Oh and DDD doesn't have anything else on those characters but his infinite?Again the pikachu match up is like that because pikachu was pretty much made to counter fox not because he has a move that was made to counter fox. The chain grab isn't a 0 to death and its just the tip of the iceberg.
It dind't matter that they lasted a long time. Did they break the game? Was it a "do this or lose?: situation? No.First off, Melee was a completely different game. Many characters had Chain Grabs that lead to death. None of them, excluding Wobbling, were extensive. You can't even begin to compare the two. Sheiks DThrow or Marths UThrow didn't last nearly as long.
probably becaus ehe can kill earlier?Also, you claim that Dedede doesn't need to go up to 300% correct? Why?
once you go beyond the 300% mark yes. howver again, DDd can just kill you before the 300% mark with a throw. I can easily just Dthrow C to the edge, then infinite you at my lesire and then F throw you at 200%.Should you agree with me that the blanket percent should be the sure fire percent at which Dedede can ensure a KO? I think that is reasonable. Because before he reaches that percent, he's just going for a KO, right? After that, it's considered stalling.
After the 300% mark is already claimed to be stalling thugh. I have not disagreed with you on that mater. once you go past the 300% mark it is stallig, but again why would I? Even if it doesn't kill bowser off at 300%, I can easily kill him with every other move.When you claim, why go past 300%. I just did a Back Throw on Bowser at the edge of Final Destination with Dedede at 300% and lived.
Whya re you assuming though that everyone arguing with you is saying its okay for Except such a case of 0-300% is stalling.See why your logic doesn't work? Now we're not dealing with 300%, because not all characters caught in an infinite will die by that percent all the time. Now we have to go higher, which takes even longer. This only proves my point further.
It is the definition laid out by the SBR. You want to call it horrible, that is your discretion.I'm sorry, but that's a horrible defination. It applies for any combo whatsoever, because any true combo means that you lose control for a set period of time. In smash less so, but most fighting games don't have DI.
Heck, it applies for uninterruptibile animations, like throws.
What you're trying to do is irrelevant. I could float under the stage with Jiggs continuously avoiding damage, making claims that I am doing it because I am thinking of a strategy to win, rather than stalling. I could even throw in some Bairs or Uairs when the opponent comes close to edge to edge guard me and say I am slowly killing him.Again, you are not trying to stall, you are inflicting a stock loss. There is development in the match.
Define "excessive", I already pointed out the general issue with the definition above.
Soft rules don't work, that's why I oppose the rule against stalling, but not banning of individual stalling techniques (depending on the situation of course).
Please stop referencing other fighters. That is the most annoying, irrelevant, and pointless type of argument out there. A.k.a. a strawman argument.honda in Sf2 goes 90-10 against fireball users except Dhalsim. ban the fireball usage from those characters because its sooo unfair.
As for the extent of abilities, that is incorrect. MK's infinite cape is the result of a glitch. The DDD infinite is not . one also affects the ENTIRE cast, another does not.
I can't speak for everyone else, and I am not responsible for the topic of discussion being exclusive to Dedede alone, but I believe all infinites (excluding IC's) should be banned. Ice Climbers have separate criteria that needs to be met in order to perform the infinites, which can also be easily avoided, prevented, and even escaped from.If you ban Dedede's infinite do you not also need to ban any infinite? It's essentially the same. The skill used to pull off an infinite does not remove the fact that they end in the same result, so why should Dedede get specal treatment in this? Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?
*cough*Guys, whether or not this is stalling is irrelevant. The SBR has already said you can't go past 300%.
The stalling issue has been taken care of and merits no further discussion.
Ice climbers' infinite is stupidly hard to set up, and even harder to pull off. How difficult something is to perform, whether you like it or not, has always been factored into whether or not something is banned. It's why Fox's drillshine infinite was allowed.If you ban Dedede's infinite do you not also need to ban any infinite? It's essentially the same. The skill used to pull off an infinite does not remove the fact that they end in the same result, so why should Dedede get specal treatment in this? Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?
A majority of the things you listed are not infinite, and all of them require start-ups with a LOT of though put into them. Not to mention your opponent has to screw up in said situation enough to get hit by it.Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?
Ease of use is a factor. If it wasn't, the Warlock Punch would be the best move in the game.If you ban Dedede's infinite do you not also need to ban any infinite? It's essentially the same. The skill used to pull off an infinite does not remove the fact that they end in the same result, so why should Dedede get specal treatment in this? Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?
Much harder?Magneto's infinite is much harder to pull off, doesn't make any characters unviable, and is only one of the many infinites in that game. Hell, a character in a 2D SF game not having an infinite is almost a surprise. It's very different.
???Ease of use is a factor. If it wasn't, the Warlock Punch would be the best move in the game.
Uh, I dont think you understood what I said at all dude. DDD beats those characters, thus, get a ****ing counter pick. How was that not clear, your talking like I somehow stated they were viable to begin with. People main ganon, I dont see why no one would main better characters because of DDD for Christ's sakes. I main Kirby but G&w exists thus maining Kirby isn't an option?How is maining said characters even an option when ANYONE can pick up D3 and unleash the gay? These characters are flat out unviable.
You can camp on any map... Hi norfair! Hi distant planet! Hi Planking! The fact that it was banned because of what you could do with the walk-off was sort of... implied? Any character is capable of b-throwing you off the stage, the distance between yourself and the edge simply varies from character to character. How does that make the map unviable? Don't get grabbed near an edge? You're as dumb for falling for that as you are for getting CGed off the stage on delfino/castle siege. These reasons alone do not warrant an absolute ban.Just being a walk off wasn't the reason. it is because what you can do with it. DDD had his CG but there were many characters who were capable of simply B throwing you and killing you.
The game fell down to killing each other at the edge of the sides.
Not because DDD can Cg from one side to the other, but because every other character and their grandma could back camp.
There was also the issue with camping.
How is that subjective? Logic dictates that we should treat everything fairly and upon the same criterias. That is what I am doing. I don't think a ban is warranted because I believe 15% is high enough of a threshold for us to do something about it. What I believe is that YOU setting up such a threshold and claiming that these characters don't matter because they're not a majority IS subjective. Again, until you have a decent argument against my first point, you cannot touch this. Why enforce rules to prevent some characters to be infinited, but not the others? Where and how do you draw a line and state that "ok, enough characters have been taken care of, the rest can just eat dirt".ShadowLink84;5987776 [b said:I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE BEING SUBJECTIVE FOR WANTING IT BANNED. I AM ACLLING YOU SUBJECTIVE ON THE FACT THAT YOU BELIEVE AN INFINITE ON 5 CHARACTERS IS WORTHY ENOUGH FOR A BAN. THE REASON WHY THE RATIO MATTERS IS (AS STATED BEFORE) IT DICTATES IF THE TACTIC IS DAMAGING ENOUGH THAT IT HINDERS THE GAMEPLAY AS A WHOLE. NO ONE CARES IF 5 CHARACTER GET HARD COUNTERED. PEOPLE CARE IF A MASSIVE MAJORITY OF CHARACTERS ARE AFFECTED[/B]
So its ok to prevent it against a part of the cast, which you choose arbitrarily, but not the other? Again, that does not make any sense and does not follow logical reasoning.In case you did not understand the first time. We banned the stages because it stopped the infinites. Those infinitis were user by a massive amount of the cast. this cause the game to over centralize around the fact of getting the opponent to the wall and then performing an infinite on them. Not because of the infinite itself, not because characters became unviable, but because it caused overcentralizing and damaged competitive gameplay as a whole.
Stop quoting Sliq like he is the end of all competitive knowledge please.
You really suck at this debating thing.While we're at it do we ban Team Infinites? What about the Double DDD Dthrow, or the Two character grab release pummel? There's also the Cross Dthrow Double Infinite with DDD.....
You're honestly going to throw that up here and say that doing that is as easy as pushing Z+Down?
Except that argument makes no sense.If we gain nothing frm keeping the infinite, then there is no reason to ban it.
I'm sorry.You can camp on any map... Hi norfair! Hi distant planet! Hi Planking!
You start a set. Double blind pick. Do you go for DK knowing that your opponent could very well pick D3? (it really isn't that hard to know who a certain player plays beforehand). You'd lose a match based on the throw of a coin. You might as well forfeit it and move on to the second match, at which point you are FORCED to switch out. So like I said, I don't see how DK remains viable at all. It isn't simply about choosing a counterpick for D3. It's about whether or not you'd want to take such a risk in the first place. imo.Uh, I dont think you understood what I said at all dude. DDD beats those characters, thus, get a ****ing counter pick. How was that not clear, your talking like I somehow stated they were viable to begin with. People main ganon, I dont see why no one would main better characters because of DDD for Christ's sakes. I main Kirby but G&w exists thus maining Kirby isn't an option?
What the ****?
(Also, maybe you need to read my post again, I support a ban. >_>)
I still <3 you :]I'm sorry.
You have to kill one character first. That's a pretty significant setup.While we're at it do we ban Team Infinites? What about the Double DDD Dthrow, or the Two character grab release pummel? There's also the Cross Dthrow Double Infinite with DDD.....
Technically, that's not true. It adds an increased emphasis on counterpicking and the pre-match selection system.This adds nothing to competitive play.
Wow I didn't think of that.This adds nothing to competitive play. Furthermore, it puts DDD dangerously close to my definition of what warrants a ban:
1. Character removes fundamental aspects of gameplay.
The infinite removes the ability of the opponent to DI or to defend themselves, something that should generally always be present.
Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware we were bringing our Ad Hominem to the debate oh Lord High Debator. Please teach me your ways -_-;You really suck at this debating thing.
Both situations require significant start ups, and both situations can be interrupted.
Plus, a double DDD team isn't always the best, so you won't see that situation too much.
I much prefer this version of the argument.This adds nothing to competitive play. Furthermore, it puts DDD dangerously close to my definition of what warrants a ban:
1. Character removes fundamental aspects of gameplay.
The infinite removes the ability of the opponent to DI or to defend themselves, something that should generally always be present.
You better. I talked to Percon about it and told him Distant Planet = No for next OiN.I still <3 you :]
Quoting because this is the ****ing truth.This adds nothing to competitive play. Furthermore, it puts DDD dangerously close to my definition of what warrants a ban:
1. Character removes fundamental aspects of gameplay.
The infinite removes the ability of the opponent to DI or to defend themselves, something that should generally always be present.