Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[cutter]

Thats only on bowser and were just talking about infinites. Not really long chaingrabs.

D3 can also do this to DK and I think on Mario/Luigi/Samus as well.

 

[CO18]

D3 can also do this to DK and I think on Mario/Luigi/Samus as well.

Youre right about DK but he definitley cant do it to mario/luigi/samus.

I was too busy 3 stocking bum with only the infinite. forgot about the small step mah bad

 

[Ulevo]

Then what about the combos in melee?
Or Sheik's CG in melee?
let alone that i can just say "I am getting him to killing percents.


you can't twist it either.


I am sorry but why would DDD go up to 300% with the infinite when he can kill the opponent off before that?

I don't have a wi with me currently can you bring up DDD's killing percents for his throws?

First off, Melee was a completely different game. Many characters had Chain Grabs that lead to death. None of them, excluding Wobbling, were extensive. You can't even begin to compare the two. Sheiks DThrow or Marths UThrow didn't last nearly as long.

Also, you claim that Dedede doesn't need to go up to 300% correct? Why?

Should you agree with me that the blanket percent should be the sure fire percent at which Dedede can ensure a KO? I think that is reasonable. Because before he reaches that percent, he's just going for a KO, right? After that, it's considered stalling.

When you claim, why go past 300%. I just did a Back Throw on Bowser at the edge of Final Destination with Dedede at 300% and lived.

See why your logic doesn't work? Now we're not dealing with 300%, because not all characters caught in an infinite will die by that percent all the time. Now we have to go higher, which takes even longer. This only proves my point further.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Why are we arguing this?

 

[ShadowLink84]

You are SO right. We should not prevent a character from using the full extent of their abilities. Therefore, you must want Meta Knight's infinite dimensional cape unbanned. That's an ability of his. It's not fair that he can't make use of it.
Now, how can you sit there and tell us that around a minute and a half of D3's infinite from 0 to 300 can't be considered stalling? It DOES unfairly create almost 100 to 0 match-ups vs. characters that can be infinited.

honda in Sf2 goes 90-10 against fireball users except Dhalsim. ban the fireball usage from those characters because its sooo unfair.
As for the extent of abilities, that is incorrect. MK's infinite cape is the result of a glitch. The DDD infinite is not . one also affects the ENTIRE cast, another does not.

it destroys competitiveness because it lacks any decent level of skill. Destroying competition between two characters =/= breaking the game.

Destroying competitiveness=no viability from anything except that character and only using that one strategy to win.

if there was a strategy in chess that was unbeateable it would be banned since it breaks competitiveness. DDD's infinite does not destroy anything but those 5 characters.

Again the pikachu match up is like that because pikachu was pretty much made to counter fox not because he has a move that was made to counter fox. The chain grab isn't a 0 to death and its just the tip of the iceberg.

Oh and DDD doesn't have anything else on those characters but his infinite?
Coulda fooled me.
And even if he did, it still doesn't change the fact that it does not break the game.

First off, Melee was a completely different game. Many characters had Chain Grabs that lead to death. None of them, excluding Wobbling, were extensive. You can't even begin to compare the two. Sheiks DThrow or Marths UThrow didn't last nearly as long.

It dind't matter that they lasted a long time. Did they break the game? Was it a "do this or lose?: situation? No.
let alone that Marth's U throw isn't a CG if you Di right.

Also, you claim that Dedede doesn't need to go up to 300% correct? Why?

probably becaus ehe can kill earlier?
I mean ****, i said it rther blatantly.

Should you agree with me that the blanket percent should be the sure fire percent at which Dedede can ensure a KO? I think that is reasonable. Because before he reaches that percent, he's just going for a KO, right? After that, it's considered stalling.

once you go beyond the 300% mark yes. howver again, DDd can just kill you before the 300% mark with a throw. I can easily just Dthrow C to the edge, then infinite you at my lesire and then F throw you at 200%.

You're dead. Ban?

When you claim, why go past 300%. I just did a Back Throw on Bowser at the edge of Final Destination with Dedede at 300% and lived.

After the 300% mark is already claimed to be stalling thugh. I have not disagreed with you on that mater. once you go past the 300% mark it is stallig, but again why would I? Even if it doesn't kill bowser off at 300%, I can easily kill him with every other move.

See why your logic doesn't work? Now we're not dealing with 300%, because not all characters caught in an infinite will die by that percent all the time. Now we have to go higher, which takes even longer. This only proves my point further.

Whya re you assuming though that everyone arguing with you is saying its okay for Except such a case of 0-300% is stalling.
I don't believe anyone disagreed on that point, what is being disagreed though is that you are stating that the infinite in itself is stalling.
Frmo the way you make your argument you mak it sound that it does't amtter if you go to 300% that its stalling.

And I think you can just Dtilt bowser and kill him from a Dthrow anyway.

 

[pure_awesome]

Magneto's infinite is much harder to pull off, doesn't make any characters unviable, and is only one of the many infinites in that game. Hell, a character in a 2D SF game not having an infinite is almost a surprise. It's very different.

Guys, whether or not this is stalling is irrelevant. The SBR has already said you can't go past 300%.
The stalling issue has been taken care of and merits no further discussion.


Also, one last time, the Pika vs Fox argument is also irrelevant, since Fox can fight back before the grab and after, whereas the unlucky five can only fight back after. It's also much harder for Pika to get a grab in general, thanks to his stubby little rat arms.

On a final note, I would like to, once again, say that my ultimate point in this thread is that the competitive community gains literally nothing by keeping the infinite, except for an increased emphasis on the counterpick system and the pre-match selection system. We are never going to see the infinite in action, because noone will be stupid enough to go DK when there's a chance that their opponent will take DDD.

 

[tehyoshi]

Yes it should, but also you have to consider the fact that other characters have chain grabs as well.
I think it all should be banned, brawl tried so hard not to fawk up, yet they still created these silly flaws.
There's a ton of bullcrap in brawl as well.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm sorry, but that's a horrible defination. It applies for any combo whatsoever, because any true combo means that you lose control for a set period of time. In smash less so, but most fighting games don't have DI.

Heck, it applies for uninterruptibile animations, like throws.

It is the definition laid out by the SBR. You want to call it horrible, that is your discretion.

Also, combos are not excessive. They end in a reasonable amount of time. King Dedede's infinite obviously does not. You're taking the words completely out of context.

Again, you are not trying to stall, you are inflicting a stock loss. There is development in the match.

Define "excessive", I already pointed out the general issue with the definition above.

Soft rules don't work, that's why I oppose the rule against stalling, but not banning of individual stalling techniques (depending on the situation of course).

What you're trying to do is irrelevant. I could float under the stage with Jiggs continuously avoiding damage, making claims that I am doing it because I am thinking of a strategy to win, rather than stalling. I could even throw in some Bairs or Uairs when the opponent comes close to edge to edge guard me and say I am slowly killing him.

This does not exempt the facts; it is stalling. I don't care if you're throwing me constantly to get me at a KO percent. With the amount of time that takes, it is wasting the time necessary for me to win via percentage once I am out of the throw, to the point where it is very unreasonable. I don't even need to argue what is stalling by defintion of a specific time limit. Any idiot should know that a technique that even promotes stalling over a minute is stalling. Your argument sucks.

 

[Inui]

Some of you aren't really getting how extremely easy it is to both start and perform the infinites and how hard it is to avoid being grabbed by Dedede the entire match. =/

Sigh. So lame.

 

[The Real Inferno]

If you ban Dedede's infinite do you not also need to ban any infinite? It's essentially the same. The skill used to pull off an infinite does not remove the fact that they end in the same result, so why should Dedede get special treatment in this? Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?

I voted no on banning the infinite because I feel that it should not recieve special treatment just because it's easy. Show me that the same treatment will be applied to other things like the Ice Climbers and maybe I'll change my mind.

 

[M15t3R E]

honda in Sf2 goes 90-10 against fireball users except Dhalsim. ban the fireball usage from those characters because its sooo unfair.
As for the extent of abilities, that is incorrect. MK's infinite cape is the result of a glitch. The DDD infinite is not . one also affects the ENTIRE cast, another does not.

Please stop referencing other fighters. That is the most annoying, irrelevant, and pointless type of argument out there. A.k.a. a strawman argument.
Perhaps in Sf2 that should have been banned, just as perhaps this infinite in Smash Bros. needs to be banned. Your reference to Sf2 and other fighters will forever be nonsensical, completely irrelevant gibberish.

MK's infinite dimensional cape is the result of a glitch, yes. DDD's is not, true. But it's something that the developers surely didn't mean to put into the game, just like the infinite dimensional cape. Both MK's and D3's things can be used for long stalling. You are not allowed to bend the rules here. Stalling is not allowed, whether it works on a select few characters or the entire cast. If MK's cape is banned, D3's infinite needs to follow suit to keep in line with the SBR's judgment about stalling.

 

[Boxob]

Yes.

Something this skill-less shouldn't create all this mess. Plain and simple.

 

[Yonder]

+1 for the infinite. DDD's ******** grab range makes it really bad for those characters. They deserves the same rights as everyone else, even if their not top tier like Meta Knight. Some people don't care for the infinite, but they would be FREAKING if it was their main, or more likely if it was Marth or something, and wanting to ban it in a snap. Infinites show a lack of skills, and a really good Mario player for example, vs a really bad DDD who ONLY knows the infinite, and the DDD wins? Not fair, ban this stupid infinite.

If DDD players dump DDD because of a banned infinite, it shows your lack of devotion. DDD'sa great character for alot more outside the grab stuff.

 

[Ulevo]

If you ban Dedede's infinite do you not also need to ban any infinite? It's essentially the same. The skill used to pull off an infinite does not remove the fact that they end in the same result, so why should Dedede get specal treatment in this? Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?

I can't speak for everyone else, and I am not responsible for the topic of discussion being exclusive to Dedede alone, but I believe all infinites (excluding IC's) should be banned. Ice Climbers have separate criteria that needs to be met in order to perform the infinites, which can also be easily avoided, prevented, and even escaped from.

But yeah, I agree with what you're saying.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what makes you so sure that the infinite isnt a glitch?
a glitch is something unintended by the programmers, you think they made this infinite on purpose?

oh, and for the record, chain grabbing from 0-300 on a wall as fast as possible takes 1:20, correct?
if that is true, i promise you that i can make an infinite from 0-300 take more than 4 minutes. and at that point, i only need to kill you once to win. also by that logic, the only way those characters can win is if they never let the D3 even have the same amount of stocks as them. which is impossible because both players start with the same number of lives

EDIT oh snap boxy you took forever to come back...lol

 

[pure_awesome]

Guys, whether or not this is stalling is irrelevant. The SBR has already said you can't go past 300%.
The stalling issue has been taken care of and merits no further discussion.

*cough*

If you ban Dedede's infinite do you not also need to ban any infinite? It's essentially the same. The skill used to pull off an infinite does not remove the fact that they end in the same result, so why should Dedede get specal treatment in this? Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?

Ice climbers' infinite is stupidly hard to set up, and even harder to pull off. How difficult something is to perform, whether you like it or not, has always been factored into whether or not something is banned. It's why Fox's drillshine infinite was allowed.
Laser lock and jab lock aren't infinites unless they're on a wall, and even then, you can only use them if your opponent misses a tech and lies there like a moron for half a second. I've yet to see a laser lock occur in a pro match, or use one myself in a match with anyone who isn't terrible.

I don't know enough about banana locks to comment.

 

[Boxob]

Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?

A majority of the things you listed are not infinite, and all of them require start-ups with a LOT of though put into them. Not to mention your opponent has to screw up in said situation enough to get hit by it.

When was the last time you laser locked someone in a tourney match?

How about a jab lock?

Thought so.

 

[bobson]

If you ban Dedede's infinite do you not also need to ban any infinite? It's essentially the same. The skill used to pull off an infinite does not remove the fact that they end in the same result, so why should Dedede get specal treatment in this? Why allow Jab Locks, Laser Locks, Banana Locks, or Wall Infinites? Dedede only infinites 6 characters. Ice climbers infinite every single one (and actually kill much much faster than Dedede's with it). Many tournaments allow Corneria at this point in time. Do we ban all of the infinites that can happen on it such as Diddy's Banana lock or Falco's infinite laser lock? Where do we draw the line here?

Ease of use is a factor. If it wasn't, the Warlock Punch would be the best move in the game.

 

[Inui]

Oh, btw, it takes absolutely 0 EXP or real practice to do the standing infinites. Any player can **** a character that gets infinited with Dedede. You can just pick Dedede and negate those characters to nothingness.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Magneto's infinite is much harder to pull off, doesn't make any characters unviable, and is only one of the many infinites in that game. Hell, a character in a 2D SF game not having an infinite is almost a surprise. It's very different.

Much harder?
Not really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-xgSkrNM5M

let alone that the infinite is well. infinite. you can do it all day unil your opponent is dead and considering it comes off a very fast move (I think frame 2? not sure exactly) ts very easy to do once you land thehit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-xgSkrNM5M
Also, one last time, the Pika vs Fox argument is also irrelevant, since Fox can fight back before the grab and after, whereas the unlucky five can only fight back after. It's also much harder for Pika to get a grab in general, thanks to his stubby little rat arms.[/quote]
grabbing Fox is easy actually which is why he so loves th defensive options this time around.

Again Mario, Luigi,Samus,Bowser can't fight DDD before they get grabbed? last I saw DDD has to actually grab you, he didn't just press Z and that was it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-xgSkrNM5M
On a final note, I would like to, once again, say that my ultimate point in this thread is that the competitive community gains literally nothing by keeping the infinite, except for an increased emphasis on the counterpick system and the pre-match selection system. We are never going to see the infinite in action, because noone will be stupid enough to go DK when there's a chance that their opponent will take DDD.[/QUOTE]If we gain nothing frm keeping the infinite, then there is no reason to ban it.

Ease of use is a factor. If it wasn't, the Warlock Punch would be the best move in the game.

???
We need to clarify.
y ease of use people mean y performing the infinite. As in you grab someone with the IC's but then performing the infinite.
Which isn't cared for.

let alone that in all those cases those characters have methods fo avoiding a grab.

hmm I can only stay for 3 more minutes before study time.

 

[Falconv1.0]

How is maining said characters even an option when ANYONE can pick up D3 and unleash the gay? These characters are flat out unviable.

Uh, I dont think you understood what I said at all dude. DDD beats those characters, thus, get a ****ing counter pick. How was that not clear, your talking like I somehow stated they were viable to begin with. People main ganon, I dont see why no one would main better characters because of DDD for Christ's sakes. I main Kirby but G&w exists thus maining Kirby isn't an option?


What the ****?


(Also, maybe you need to read my post again, I support a ban. >_>)

 

[BentoBox]

Just being a walk off wasn't the reason. it is because what you can do with it. DDD had his CG but there were many characters who were capable of simply B throwing you and killing you.
The game fell down to killing each other at the edge of the sides.
Not because DDD can Cg from one side to the other, but because every other character and their grandma could back camp.

There was also the issue with camping.

You can camp on any map... Hi norfair! Hi distant planet! Hi Planking! The fact that it was banned because of what you could do with the walk-off was sort of... implied? Any character is capable of b-throwing you off the stage, the distance between yourself and the edge simply varies from character to character. How does that make the map unviable? Don't get grabbed near an edge? You're as dumb for falling for that as you are for getting CGed off the stage on delfino/castle siege. These reasons alone do not warrant an absolute ban.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE BEING SUBJECTIVE FOR WANTING IT BANNED. I AM ACLLING YOU SUBJECTIVE ON THE FACT THAT YOU BELIEVE AN INFINITE ON 5 CHARACTERS IS WORTHY ENOUGH FOR A BAN. THE REASON WHY THE RATIO MATTERS IS (AS STATED BEFORE) IT DICTATES IF THE TACTIC IS DAMAGING ENOUGH THAT IT HINDERS THE GAMEPLAY AS A WHOLE. NO ONE CARES IF 5 CHARACTER GET HARD COUNTERED. PEOPLE CARE IF A MASSIVE MAJORITY OF CHARACTERS ARE AFFECTED[/B]

How is that subjective? Logic dictates that we should treat everything fairly and upon the same criterias. That is what I am doing. I don't think a ban is warranted because I believe 15% is high enough of a threshold for us to do something about it. What I believe is that YOU setting up such a threshold and claiming that these characters don't matter because they're not a majority IS subjective. Again, until you have a decent argument against my first point, you cannot touch this. Why enforce rules to prevent some characters to be infinited, but not the others? Where and how do you draw a line and state that "ok, enough characters have been taken care of, the rest can just eat dirt".

If it affected 49% of the cast, would you still be against it? (Hey, it's not a majority after all!)

In case you did not understand the first time. We banned the stages because it stopped the infinites. Those infinitis were user by a massive amount of the cast. this cause the game to over centralize around the fact of getting the opponent to the wall and then performing an infinite on them. Not because of the infinite itself, not because characters became unviable, but because it caused overcentralizing and damaged competitive gameplay as a whole.

Stop quoting Sliq like he is the end of all competitive knowledge please.

So its ok to prevent it against a part of the cast, which you choose arbitrarily, but not the other? Again, that does not make any sense and does not follow logical reasoning.

 

[Inui]

Yeah, I don't consider DK/Bowser/others viable with infinites allowed. They should never, ever be allowed to win.

 

[The Real Inferno]

While we're at it do we ban Team Infinites? What about the Double DDD Dthrow, or the Two character grab release pummel? There's also the Cross Dthrow Double Infinite with DDD.....

 

[Boxob]

While we're at it do we ban Team Infinites? What about the Double DDD Dthrow, or the Two character grab release pummel? There's also the Cross Dthrow Double Infinite with DDD.....

You really suck at this debating thing.

Both situations require significant start ups, and both situations can be interrupted.

Plus, a double DDD team isn't always the best, so you won't see that situation too much.

 

[pure_awesome]

Much harder?
Not really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-xgSkrNM5M

You're honestly going to throw that up here and say that doing that is as easy as pushing Z+Down?

If we gain nothing frm keeping the infinite, then there is no reason to ban it.

Except that argument makes no sense.

We gain nothing by keeping it. We gain something by banning it. Understand now?

 

[Ulevo]

You can camp on any map... Hi norfair! Hi distant planet! Hi Planking!

I'm sorry.

 

[Inui]

lmao @ all the stupid comparisons to other stuff

 

[BentoBox]

Uh, I dont think you understood what I said at all dude. DDD beats those characters, thus, get a ****ing counter pick. How was that not clear, your talking like I somehow stated they were viable to begin with. People main ganon, I dont see why no one would main better characters because of DDD for Christ's sakes. I main Kirby but G&w exists thus maining Kirby isn't an option?


What the ****?


(Also, maybe you need to read my post again, I support a ban. >_>)

You start a set. Double blind pick. Do you go for DK knowing that your opponent could very well pick D3? (it really isn't that hard to know who a certain player plays beforehand). You'd lose a match based on the throw of a coin. You might as well forfeit it and move on to the second match, at which point you are FORCED to switch out. So like I said, I don't see how DK remains viable at all. It isn't simply about choosing a counterpick for D3. It's about whether or not you'd want to take such a risk in the first place. imo.

I'm sorry.

I still <3 you :]

 

[pure_awesome]

While we're at it do we ban Team Infinites? What about the Double DDD Dthrow, or the Two character grab release pummel? There's also the Cross Dthrow Double Infinite with DDD.....

You have to kill one character first. That's a pretty significant setup.

 

[Deleted member]

This adds nothing to competitive play. Furthermore, it puts DDD dangerously close to my definition of what warrants a ban:

1. Character removes fundamental aspects of gameplay.

The infinite removes the ability of the opponent to DI or to defend themselves, something that should generally always be present.

 

[Yonder]

For those who say "Just change characters": I think it's perfectly nessary to change characters on your own free will, like if you have a bad matchup against another characters after considering all fair tactics, that when compared, the other character has the advantage.

Now, take DDD and compare him to Luigi... Luigi juggles him, faster, all those factor. DDD evens it out more by his great range and weight, along with recovery, it overall could be anyone's slight advantage, both at the same skill, and nothing to blame eachother for losing, each having fair factors in play,perfectly fair...but then there's the infinite, a unfair tactic which can be learned in seconds and make DDD render Luigi useless, it's not hard to get a grab in with DDD. Therfore, it makes it stupid for the Luigi player to HAVE to change, just because of that one unstoppage and unfair tactic, despite being at the same skill level and having an overall even match without the infinite.

 

[pure_awesome]

This adds nothing to competitive play.

Technically, that's not true. It adds an increased emphasis on counterpicking and the pre-match selection system.

The question is, do we want that to the be a large part of competitive play?

Personally, I don't think so.

 

[Boxob]

I'm going to hop on Umbreon's nuts for a second and say...

"Thanks for coming out of no where and being completely correct. Your red name makes you moar correct. I love you"

 

[Inui]

This adds nothing to competitive play. Furthermore, it puts DDD dangerously close to my definition of what warrants a ban:

1. Character removes fundamental aspects of gameplay.

The infinite removes the ability of the opponent to DI or to defend themselves, something that should generally always be present.

Wow I didn't think of that.

God bless you, Max.

 

[The Real Inferno]

You really suck at this debating thing.

Both situations require significant start ups, and both situations can be interrupted.

Plus, a double DDD team isn't always the best, so you won't see that situation too much.

Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware we were bringing our Ad Hominem to the debate oh Lord High Debator. Please teach me your ways -_-;

I'm quite fond of Double DDD and I've found the Cross Chain grab to be very easy to set up on any two chain grabbable opponents. I'm just trying to point out we are sitting here giving special treatment to 6 characters who get infinited by one move and then trying to explain it away because it's "easy". Do you seriously not see the flaw in just complaining that it's "easy to set up"? PErhaps if you were instead arguing that "it upsets the balance of the game" or "single handedly invalidates good number of characters" I would be inclined to agree with you. But banning stuff because it's easy? That's scrubby.

This adds nothing to competitive play. Furthermore, it puts DDD dangerously close to my definition of what warrants a ban:

1. Character removes fundamental aspects of gameplay.

The infinite removes the ability of the opponent to DI or to defend themselves, something that should generally always be present.

I much prefer this version of the argument.

 

[Ulevo]

I still <3 you :]

You better. I talked to Percon about it and told him Distant Planet = No for next OiN.

 

[CO18]

Umbreon is the coolest Backroomer/Mod.

 

[HeroMystic]

This adds nothing to competitive play. Furthermore, it puts DDD dangerously close to my definition of what warrants a ban:

1. Character removes fundamental aspects of gameplay.

The infinite removes the ability of the opponent to DI or to defend themselves, something that should generally always be present.

Quoting because this is the ****ing truth.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the two character grab release thing is stupid and after me and my partner used it one time in tourney, it was immediately softbanned in our entire area