Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[M15t3R E]

D3's infinites can theoretically (and easily) be used for stalling. That alone should warrant a ban.

 

[viparagon]

First off, I did not say "if DDD infinited every character except for Meta...". So... I don't know if that was directed at me or not.

If Brawl was a complete nightmare of a game (ie DDD infinited all characters), I don't think we'd even be talking about this... the community would have more than likely abandoned the game.

We ban stuff when it becomes so big of a problem that it turns into the one of only viable strategies. We DO NOT ban stuff because we think it's stupid/********/gay. So what if a few characters have a nightmare matchup. Big deal. It happened in Melee and it still holds true in Brawl. If DDD infinited every single character or a ridiculous majority of them then I think there would be justification to ban the infinite.



D3 does not standing infinite over 2/3rds of the cast.

his argument was that if d3 infinited every character except MK, there would still be a viable strategy (pick MK). he's saying that at some point a line must be drawn.

 

[CO18]

First off, I did not say "if DDD infinited every character except for Meta...". So... I don't know if that was directed at me or not.

If Brawl was a complete nightmare of a game (ie DDD infinited all characters), I don't think we'd even be talking about this... the community would have more than likely abandoned the game.

We ban stuff when it becomes so big of a problem that it turns into the one of only viable strategies. We DO NOT ban stuff because we think it's stupid/********/gay. So what if a few characters have a nightmare matchup. Big deal. It happened in Melee and it still holds true in Brawl. If DDD infinited every single character or a ridiculous majority of them then I think there would be justification to ban the infinite.



D3 does not infinite over 2/3rds of the cast.

No the fact is, you're claim of being able to counterpick is dumb.

Considering he could do this to 99% of the cast and you would still be able to counterpick that 1% that does not get infinited.

You are being hypocritcal if you say otherwise.

No, if that were to happen we would ban this infinite rather then simply not playing the game. But since its to a lesser extent you're saying that its perfectly right.

 

[Calixto]

Not banning DDD's infinite is like not trying to pull out a splinter in your finger because 'it sets a dangerous precedent' or 'it's not worthy, not enough of a problem'.


If it only affects 5 characters and it's not such a big deal, why not ban it to keep the mains of those 6 playing?

 

[aeghrur]

Because those rest can lern2counterpick.
God, it's a 3% chance if your one of those characters that you'll see a DDD.
It's a .4% chance that you'll see one of these match ups actually happening.
You can counterpick if the 3% comes up, or pick a different stage. =/
Mister E, there's a limit on the stalling, thus the stalling part of the infinite is more or less gone. =/ If you want, you can ask the SBR to lower the percentage, lol.

 

[XienZo]

D3's infinites can theoretically (and easily) be used for stalling. That alone should warrant a ban.

Not really, you'll reach 300 pretty quickly, since your D-throw will never be more than half decayed...

Because those rest can lern2counterpick.
God, it's a 3% chance if your one of those characters that you'll see a DDD.
It's a .4% chance that you'll see one of these match ups actually happening.
You can counterpick if the 3% comes up, or pick a different stage. =/

If people were smart, EVERYONE should learn to infinite.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You forgot one thing THEY END. Florida's best fox just 2-0ed Florida's Best Zss on saturday at a tourney 2 stocking him twice.

Those are not infinites. They do not make Fox unviable.[/QUOTE

Cause the best in the state=best int he nation=best int he world.
No one gives a **** who is the best in one state or another. What amtters is how good they are compared to everyone else.

Can you say the ZSS was just as good and that there wasn't a noticeable skill ga? or that the ZSS did not go for the death combo which is easy as hell to land?

big deal fi they end. The ENDS is the EXACT same thing.
I choose Pikachu and you choose Fox. I CG until roughly 80%, Usmash then thunder. You're dead.
infinite? No.
Does it give you a 9-1 matchup? Yes.
Does Mario and Luigi get 9-1 against DDD due to the infinite? yes

We have many other games that also have infinites, are those infinties banned? No.

a 9-1 matchup ratio is enough to be unviable.

Whats the difference between a 9-1 for mario vs DDD and a 9-1 for Fox vs Pikachu?
nothing, its still 9-1, the character with the disadvantage is still unviable, the character gets *****.

It sounds like you want to ban it just because its an infinite rather than the effect of the infinite.

@xien: Ease of use doesn't mean ANYTHING. It never has and it never will. Look at Wobbling in melee or the few death combos. none of which were banned.

 

[Turbo Ether]

It's ok to ban DDD's infinite, but not the other infinites/guaranteed death combos in the game?

 

[Fletch]

You said Falcon isnt viable at all in which I said he is.

Reflex topping the 2 best players in Georgia with his Alt Falcon who main Top tier characters in your supposed "matchups" that are barely worse than D3 vs a char he can infinite proves that isn't exactly the case.

And I doubt you can find a vid of a those 5 characters in consideration beating an "infiniting" Dedede.

I was looking for matches, but in my defense, I can't find any where D3 is using the infinite (regardless of winning or losing), maybe you could link me to some unbiased videos?

 

[CO18]

Because those rest can lern2counterpick.
God, it's a 3% chance if your one of those characters that you'll see a DDD.
It's a .4% chance that you'll see one of these match ups actually happening.
You can counterpick if the 3% comes up, or pick a different stage. =/

Umm No. NOTHING is stopping people to just use Dedede and use this tactic even if you dont main them.

You are not restricted to 1 character.

Anyone could easily just pick dedede, change their c-stick to grab and 3 stock their helpless opponents.

Edit: At fletch the point is you wont find a match where the opponent beats and infiting Dedede that can do it perfectly (which is easy just set your c-stick to grab).

Heck youd probably wont find a video of them beating a Dedede that can half *** do the infinite and I do indeed have a video of that happening in a florida tourney.

 

[BentoBox]

You've failed to read my post. D3's chaingrab does NOT affect everyone. Not EVERYONE is prone to being walk-off'd by D3. Yet, we banned stages to prevent it from happening. Again, why can't we do the same this time around? Why the sudden halt? Why is it that because we fixed the problem for a certain percentage of the cast, suddenly the rest doesn't matter anymore? From your line of thought, D3's chaingrab wasn't originally broken, so why did we still enforce rules to prevent walk-offs from happening?

D3 does not standing infinite over 2/3rds of the cast.

Sigh cutter, seriously? Because you're basically replying the same bs as DragZ...

And again, who are you to decide that such or such number of characters being rendered unviable is low enough as a threshold, thus warranting no further actions? Nobody can come up with an argument backing that based on logic alone. The only LOGIC route would be to follow through OR unban the banned stages.

If you have your mind set on a philosophy, you either take action or you don't. You don't half-*** it and then come and tell me that finishing the job is unnecessary.

REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF CHARACTERS IT AFFECTS. THAT IS I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T.

Is there really any difference between a CG walk-off and an infinite? In both cases, grab = stock. In the first case, it affects 2/3rds of the cast, in the other it affects 1/7th. Why is it right to prevent the former case from happening but not the latter? LOGIC PLS.

 

[Mortimer]

Meta Knight's infinite dimensional cape is banned. People don't use it.
Shows that your argument is a strawman.

Irony? You've got the strawman here. IDC deals no damage, so there's no point to trying to sneak it in.

Now, you could've made a point about risk vs reward or something. Maybe you can try again?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fox does not lose the ability to reflect your thunder and shield/dodge/punish your attacks and do damage after it is over.

I wish poor mario samus dk bowser and luigi had that option.


Also pure awesome makes another good point. All youre doing is assuring that these matchups will never happen. Keeping it adds nothing besides the fact that they are 100:0 matchups.

What? So mario and Luigi lose their fireballs? The also lose their dodge/punishing ability?
So DDD just hits Z and its game over without mario and Luigi being able to do anything about it?
Samus can't spce with missiles and Zairs?
Bowser with fire?

DK s the one that gets hit hardest but the others have methods of trying to avoid it. Just like you said Fox has methods of fighting pikachu.


Your own statement hurts you in the fact that DDD doesn't just hit Z and win. He still has toa ctually land a grab.

If you have your mind set on a philosophy, you either take action or you don't. You don't half-*** it and then come and tell me that finishing the job is unnecessary.

REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF CHARACTERS IT AFFECTS. THAT IS I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T.

Wrong. The number of characters it impacts is a great factor. it is what determines if that behavior causes overcentralizing and stagnates the game. It determines if the game falls down to "do this or lose" or "pick this character or lose"

 

[cutter]

No the fact is, you're claim of being able to counterpick is dumb.

Considering he could do this to 99% of the cast and you would still be able to counterpick that 1% that does not get infinited.

You are being hypocritcal if you say otherwise.

No, if that were to happen we would ban this infinite rather then simply not playing the game. But since its to a lesser extent you're saying that its perfectly right.

There's a difference between counterpicking with a huge selection of characters compared to just one.

Your situation where DDD would infinite every character but MK reminds me a lot of the Affinity nightmare in MTG.

 

[aeghrur]

Umm No. NOTHING is stopping people to just use Dedede and use this tactic even if you dont main them.

You are not restricted to 1 character.

Anyone could easily just pick dedede, change their c-stick to grab and 3 stock their helpless opponents.

1st match, double blind. .4% chance. 3% chance if your determined to main this character.
2nd match, they pick DDD, you pick some other character.
If you lose:
You pick your old character and they pick DDD, counter pick stage?
If you win:
Well, nothing to say, lol. Good job.

 

[Mortimer]

Same way any rule ever is enforced.

Eh, fair enough.

 

[Calixto]

People aren't complaining about the Pika Fox matchup because even without that CG Fox is still boned. It's why no one brought it up before.


If it was that the only character DDD could infinite could chaingrab was Link or Ganon or something, and they were both boned in the matchup with or without the 'Free KO' button no one would say anything because it wouldn't matter. And nuts to the Ganon and Link players, because we all know most smashers are as afraid of change as old white republican men and it won't get banned.


Now however is different, because these 6 hold a very sizeable change of beating a DDD without it, but are crushed with it.

 

[pure_awesome]

Whats the difference between a 9-1 for mario vs DDD and a 9-1 for Fox vs Pikachu? nothing, its still 9-1, the character with the disadvantage is still unviable, the character gets *****.

Fox can put up a resistance. I can DI your Upsmash to avoid thunder, and then I'm back in the game. So if you get a grab, I'm not autodead.

DK can't put up any resistance. Once there's a grab, it's over.

There's also the little issue that there's significantly more DDD mains than Pika mains, irrelevant as it may be.

 

[CO18]

1st match, double blind. .4% chance. 3% chance if your determined to main this character.
2nd match, they pick DDD, you pick some other character.
If you lose:
You pick your old character and they pick DDD, counter pick stage?
If you win:
Well, nothing to say, lol. Good job.

In a double blind situation theres a good chance the opponent will know who you generally main in the normal tournament situation.
So they would just choose Dedede and you're screwed, you would essentially have to start off every match using a character not your main

@ Cutter the point is saying you can counterpick is not a legit argument because that situation I created could have very well happened and according to you since you can counterpick it should be perfectly fair.

 

[pure_awesome]

1st match, double blind. .4% chance. 3% chance if your determined to main this character.

Your math is very flawed, based on the fact that it's far, far more likely for someone to pick DDD than to select, say, Jigglypuff.

It's even more likely if your opponent knows beforehand that you main DK. Which at high levels of play, is all the time.

 

[BentoBox]

Wrong. The number of characters it impacts is a great factor. it is what determines if that behavior causes overcentralizing and stagnates the game. It determines if the game falls down to "do this or lose" or "pick this character or lose"

Wrong, because I said so.

Is there really any difference between a CG walk-off and an infinite? In both cases, grab = stock. In the first case, it affects 2/3rds of the cast, in the other it affects 1/7th. Why is it right to prevent the former case from happening but not the latter? LOGIC PLS.

Who are YOU to decide which part of the cast should be affected by the technique? What if I decide that those 13 characters that aren't affected by D3's CG are as many viable characters as is really needed? Less subjective BS please.

 

[Mortimer]

D3's infinites can theoretically (and easily) be used for stalling. That alone should warrant a ban.

Which is why stalling is banned. That doesn't mean the infinites should be banned.

 

[M15t3R E]

Irony? You've got the strawman here. IDC deals no damage, so there's no point to trying to sneak it in.

Now, you could've made a point about risk vs reward or something. Maybe you can try again?

Wow, you're clueless. Been away from SWF for too long haven't you? There absolutely IS a point in trying to sneak it in. If there wasn't, it wouldn't be banned (duh).
It's called stalling. It can be used for infinite stalling, which is why it is banned by the SBR.

Which is why stalling is banned. That doesn't mean the infinites should be banned.

You don't get it. This infinite that D3 has CAN be used for stalling. If stalling is banned then so should this infinite.

Not really, you'll reach 300 pretty quickly, since your D-throw will never be more than half decayed...

It takes approximately a full minute to reach 300%. That's not stalling?!

If people were smart, EVERYONE should learn to infinite.

That's along the same mindset of, "if people were smart, EVERYONE should play Meta Knight."
So, please tell me you weren't serious...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fox can put up a resistance. I can DI your Upsmash to avoid thunder, and then I'm back in the game. So if you get a grab, I'm not autodead.

DK can't put up any resistance. Once there's a grab, it's over.

There's also the little issue that there's significantly more DDD mains than Pika mains, irrelevant as it may be.

number of mains=irrelevant so if you know this why bring it up?

if I land a grab that's easily 90% damage. I get a massive lead AND your up in the air where I am in position to land a kill move.

let us say DD can onl use his Dthrow as an infinite. Ca;'t follow up with anytihng but a D throw. it would still have a mmajor impact bceause even though it doesnt kill,y our character is at a severe disadvantage.

Those characters get infinited at 50% and up.
They aren't dead as a soon as they are grabbed. Even if they were, they can still do something and try to avoid it before the get grabbed. its not a hit Z button and you win.

And even if it were, it doesn't affect enough of hte cast to warrant a ban. t needs to have enough of an impact ot mean something other than result in the countering of 5 characters.

 

[XienZo]

@xien: Ease of use doesn't mean ANYTHING. It never has and it never will. Look at Wobbling in melee or the few death combos. none of which were banned.

Ease of use DOES mean something. Would you rather spend time to learn a technique that will net you less matches then had you continued to practice with your main? No, most people will not. However, most people in Melee were already at the top of the game with their mains. Furthermore, did people secondary a character JUST because they had wobbling or death combos? Furthermore, "the highest level"(yes, you didn't bring it up yet, but in case you do) is not what matters, because players who are at the highest level must first beat AVERAGE players who have YET to master their main, and is in their advantage to learn DDD.

Use of ease has nothing to do with being banned.

My argument says ease of argument is a factor in effeciency of learning.

Higher effecincy to learn a tech then to continue with main will lead people to learn that technique, and increase universal usage.

Universal usage means that the mainers of the 5 will never be able to use their main.

Making 5 characters unviable.

TL;DR Ease of Use>highly effecient>universal use>constant 100:0 of the five> five unviable characters>ban

Ease of use by itself does not mean a ban is needed.

That's along the same mindset of, "if people were smart, EVERYONE should play Meta Knight."
So, please tell me you weren't serious...

Learning Metaknight requires much more time and does not have an instantaneous increase of matches won; lowering its effeciency below that of keeping your main.

 

[Ulevo]

Irony? You've got the strawman here. IDC deals no damage, so there's no point to trying to sneak it in.

Now, you could've made a point about risk vs reward or something. Maybe you can try again?

Why are you still arguing? You've made no productive point in this discussion at all?

Just because Dedede is DThrowing a character and dealing damage consistently does not mean he isn't stalling. There is no conflict at all. Dedede has complete control over that said character, and he ends it whenever he feels like it. That is stalling. It takes the conflict out of the battle. It makes the game unplayable. If two players can't compete together, there is no game to play. It is just Dedede, using the infinite.

Please stop posting.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sometimes I wonder if you guys just argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[viparagon]

What? So mario and Luigi lose their fireballs? The also lose their dodge/punishing ability?
So DDD just hits Z and its game over without mario and Luigi being able to do anything about it?
Samus can't spce with missiles and Zairs?
Bowser with fire?
luigi and bowser still can't outcamp d3. mario actually has the biggest chance IMO due to fire and especially fludd, tho d3 can just plank from there
DK s the one that gets hit hardest but the others have methods of trying to avoid it. Just like you said Fox has methods of fighting pikachu.


Your own statement hurts you in the fact that DDD doesn't just hit Z and win. He still has toa ctually land a grab.



Wrong. The number of characters it impacts is a great factor. it is what determines if that behavior causes overcentralizing and stagnates the game. It determines if the game falls down to "do this or lose" or "pick this character or lose"
it stagnates the game if it works on one character...

commentz in bold

Sometimes I wonder if you guys just argue for the sake of arguing.

lol me too, but who doesn't love a good debate?

 

[aeghrur]

Your math is very flawed, based on the fact that it's far, far more likely for someone to pick DDD than to select, say, Jigglypuff.

Get me a list of:
All the people who attend tournaments
What number of people main each character
And I'll set up a weighted percentage for you. Or just gimme some random numbers you think is likely. Or better yet, you can give me percentages. =D I'd love for that.

It's even more likely if your opponent knows beforehand that you main DK. Which at high levels of play, is all the time.

Ugh, you know he mains DDD, you know he mains DK, don't pick DK.
Oh well you start off without your main, counterpick with someone with an advantage then.
Same thing is high level fox main vs high level pika main.
You know he mains Pika, he knows you main fox. If you want, go through with the 90/10 match up, otherwise, don't use fox.

 

[CO18]

number of mains=irrelevant so if you know this why bring it up?

if I land a grab that's easily 90% damage. I get a massive lead AND your up in the air where I am in position to land a kill move.

let us say DD can onl use his Dthrow as an infinite. Ca;'t follow up with anytihng but a D throw. it would still have a mmajor impact bceause even though it doesnt kill,y our character is at a severe disadvantage.

Those characters get infinited at 50% and up.
They aren't dead as a soon as they are grabbed. Even if they were, they can still do something and try to avoid it before the get grabbed. its not a hit Z button and you win.

And even if it were, it doesn't affect enough of hte cast to warrant a ban. t needs to have enough of an impact ot mean something other than result in the countering of 5 characters.

What are you talking about they do not get infinited at 50% and up people seem to have a severely wrong interpretation of how that move degrades.

Also are you forgetting that back throw is a move after youre done infiniting them to 300%?lol

 

[Ulevo]

Sometimes I wonder if you guys just argue for the sake of arguing.

Sometimes I wonder if people like you post for the sake of posting.

u cee wat i did thar???

 

[pure_awesome]

number of mains=irrelevant so if you know this why bring it up?

"Irrelevant as it may be" means that there's the possibility that it's irrelevent. Hence the "may be". I think it's very relevant to what you're arguing, but I also think what you're arguing is useless.

if I land a grab that's easily 90% damage. I get a massive lead AND your up in the air where I am in position to land a kill move.

A kill move that I can dodge. So getting the grab wasn't insta-win, unlike DDD's.

The rest of your argument is semantics. You wanted to know why it was different, and I told you. Don't take it personally.

 

[CO18]

Get me a list of:
All the people who attend tournaments
What number of people main each character
And I'll set up a weighted percentage for you. Or just gimme some random numbers you think is likely. Or better yet, you can give me percentages. =D I'd love for that.



Ugh, you know he mains DDD, you know he mains DK, don't pick DK.
Oh well you start off without your main, counterpick with someone with an advantage then.
Same thing is high level fox main vs high level pika main.
You know he mains Pika, he knows you main fox. If you want, go through with the 90/10 match up, otherwise, don't use fox.

See this where you're wrong because you don't have to main Dedede to do this so knowing whether or not your opponent mains d3 is irrelevant.

And random jigglypuff, marth main or anyone can pick Dedede and infinite them.

 

[cutter]

I just talked with Overswarm... the infinites are not going to be banned any time soon by the SBR.

 

[XienZo]

It takes approximately a full minute to reach 300%. That's not stalling?!

You'll only lose a minute and 40 seconds at most out of 8 minutes. Its not easily abusable.

 

[aeghrur]

Getting a grab with DDD isn't insta win.
It's insta stock.

 

[Ulevo]

I just talked with Overswarm... the infinites are not going to be banned any time soon by the SBR.

I was already aware of that personally. I still see no reason to not present an opinion on the matter.

 

[CO18]

I just talked with Overswarm... the infinites are not going to be banned any time soon.

Good thing Atlantic North and texas has already done it. And florida is gonna do it soon. hopefully other places follow

 

[Mortimer]

Why are you still arguing? You've made no productive point in this discussion at all?

Just because Dedede is DThrowing a character and dealing damage consistently does not mean he isn't stalling. There is no conflict at all. Dedede has complete control over that said character, and he ends it whenever he feels like it. That is stalling. It takes the conflict out of the battle. It makes the game unplayable. If two players can't compete together, there is no game to play. It is just Dedede, using the infinite.

Please stop posting.

Stalling is halting the battle. But since the infinite is dealing damage, it isn't halted.

Looking at it from a different angle: Would you call Diddy's naner lock stalling? It fills the same conditions you just described.

And another angle: What rate of damage has to happen for it to not be stalling? If it were 0-300% in 30 seconds rather than a minute, would it be stalling? How about 5 seconds?

 

[Ripple]

I hate automatically losing the first set of a match just because I pick DK and my opponent picks DDD. I am already at a disadvantage with a 0-1 loss now I have to win 2 games before my opponent wins 1