Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[Ulevo]

You'll only lose a minute and 40 seconds at most out of 8 minutes. Its not easily abusable.

Times that by three. You still have two more stocks.

That's more than half the time limit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wrong, because I said so.

Wrong because it is a FACT.

Is there really any difference between a CG walk-off and an infinite? In both cases, grab = stock. In the first case, it affects 2/3rds of the cast, in the other it affects 1/7th. Why is it right to prevent the former case from happening but not the latter? LOGIC PLS.

Who are YOU to decide which part of the cast should be affected by the technique? What if I decide that those 13 characters that aren't affected by D3's CG are as many viable characters as is really needed? Less subjective BS please.

Bolded part is self defeating. Walk offs were not banned solely because of DDD's infinite.
We have seen from experience what is ban worthy and what is not.

In MTG you had Ravager which forced to either paly ravager or Tooth and nail or lose.
Extreme limitation, incredible overcentralizing.
Akuma in SF2, incredible overcentralizing.

Both are cases where there is clear overcentrlizing.
how about the wall infinites in melee? Same thing, do the infinite and win or get infinited yourself. Overcentralization.

All of these examples show a VERY clear case of overcentralizing

MvC2, the 4 top tier characters made everyone below them completely and utterly unviable. Were they or their infinites banned? No. Why? Didn't break the game.

Does DDD's infinities break the game or cause overcentralizing where its "do the infinite or lose?". No.

I also find it funny you are trying to call people on being subjective but you yourself are being subjective in saying that the infinite is worthy of bing banned just because it affects those 5 characters. Are you yourself not enacting standards on what would be ban worthy?

What I have stated is provable, what you have stated is not.
Prove that DDD's infinite braks the game.

 

[M15t3R E]

You'll only lose a minute and 40 seconds at most out of 8 minutes. Its not easily abusable.

Okay XienZo. Next time you go to a tournament, make sure no one is moderating your match against a MK. Then let that MK stall with his infinite dimensional cape for a minute and 40 seconds and tell me if you're cool with it.

Times that by three. You still have two more stocks.

That's more than half the time limit.

THIS^

 

[XienZo]

Stalling is halting the battle. But since the infinite is dealing damage, it isn't halted.

If I throw an invincible pikmin at you and then hide in a chamber you can't enter for the rest of the match, its not stalling?

Okay XienZo. Next time you go to a tournament, let a MK stall with his infinite dimensional cape for a minute and 40 seconds and tell me if you're cool with it.

Well, thats assuming the MK will no longer stall afterwards with planking and going under stages, both of which DDD can't really do safely. Which in that case, I'd be fine. 6 minutes and 20 seconds of fighting after selecting just the perfect type of pikmin.

OK fine, that wouldn't be fair, since they can't pluck pikmin while being infinited, but I'm honestly fine with just 6 minutes 20 seconds left.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sometimes I wonder if people like you post for the sake of posting.

u cee wat i did thar???

lol you got me.

Seriously though, all I'm seeing from the anti-ban is "It doesn't affect my character lol!"
I wouldn't mind if DDD actually ***** my character like how Pika ***** Fox because Pikachu has EVERYTHING against Fox, but DDD just has that grab that gets rid of most, if not all, of each character's strengths, especially DK.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why are you still arguing? You've made no productive point in this discussion at all?

Just because Dedede is DThrowing a character and dealing damage consistently does not mean he isn't stalling. There is no conflict at all. Dedede has complete control over that said character, and he ends it whenever he feels like it. That is stalling. It takes the conflict out of the battle. It makes the game unplayable. If two players can't compete together, there is no game to play. It is just Dedede, using the infinite.

Please stop posting.

Having complete control isn't stalling, stalling is preventing a game from developing. Before he has reached enough damage to actually kill the character he is merely developing the death combo to it's natural progression, the death of his opponent.

When DDD grabs an opponent, if it's an infinitable character, that's a stock loss. Just as surely as if a Falco grabs a character in the proper position to do his dthrow to dair. Or any other death combo you could think of.

Sure, the possibility exists to use it for the purpose of stalling, but that's why we have to figure out what percentage DDD needs to be assured a kill and establish that after that point, it's stalling.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys just argue for the sake of arguing.

No no no,

A bit, just a bit.


Eh, we think this is an important issue, and people are passonate about it, so we debate. It's all good, really.

 

[Inui]

Prove that DDD's infinite braks the game.

It doesn't.

It just creates 90/10 matches and negates several characters that have absolutely no real reason to be negated because they are actually decent.

It's extremely lame, easy to do, boring to watch, and nearly impossible to avoid.

It's banned because it destroys fun and competitiveness.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Okay XienZo. Next time you go to a tournament, let a MK stall with his infinite dimensional cape for a minute and 40 seconds and tell me if you're cool with it.


THIS^

Most battles go beyond the 4 minute mark.
there are also cahracters who can run out the clock effectively.

Blue is a Sonic user that is heard of running out the clock.
We should ban Sonic.

This is why infinties go based on damage rather than time. Some infinites do much more damage in a the same period of time than another does. Let alone its rather hard to monitor.

It doesn't.

It just creates 90/10 matches and negates several characters that have absolutely no real reason to be negated because they are actually decent.

It's extremely lame, easy to do, boring to watch, and nearly impossible to avoid.

It's banned because it destroys fun and competitiveness.

Contradiction between the first sentence and final part.
If it doesn't destroy the game how does it destro competitiveness?
Fun is subjective so don't bring it up.

Again there is fox vs Pikachu matchup. Should we ban the tactics that give Pikachu such a massive advantage?

What about in SF2 where E honda goes 9-1 with fireball users? ban the fireball usage when he faces those characters?

Edit: Which reminds me, do you know anyone who can make me a Shadowlink sig to replace the sig I have now?

 

[RizardoLawless]

That move is bull****. It has to go.

 

[pure_awesome]

The MvC2 characters were overpowered as a whole, and are completely irrelevant to the argument. In order to make the other characters viable, the top four characters would have had to be banned completely.

This is not the case here. To make the unlucky 5 viable again, we just need to ban an easily abusable tactic that borders on stalling.

The MvC2 characters are more like Fox v Pika. They're hopelessly outclassed, but they can at least still fight back.

 

[viparagon]

In MTG you had Ravager which forced to either paly ravager or Tooth and nail or lose.

YAY! MTG FTW!
the statement isn't exactly tru tho...

 

[Mortimer]

If I throw an invincible pikmin at you and then hide in a chamber you can't enter for the rest of the match, its not stalling?

Does this result in a kill, or does the match end from the timer?

If it's the first, then no, it's not stalling. If it's the latter, then yes it is. Hence why D3's infinites aren't stalling, but the IDC is.

 

[Ulevo]

Stalling is halting the battle. But since the infinite is dealing damage, it isn't halted.

Looking at it from a different angle: Would you call Diddy's naner lock stalling? It fills the same conditions you just described.

And another angle: What rate of damage has to happen for it to not be stalling? If it were 0-300% in 30 seconds rather than a minute, would it be stalling? How about 5 seconds?

No. Just no. Just because the infinite deals damage does not mean it isn't stalling. By that logic, you could use King Dedede's infinite to 999%. As long as it continues to that percent, it's not stalling. That's ridiculous reasoning.

Hell, you even quoted the SBR, and presented the definition accepted by the community as stalling, and you're using your own definition of the term to justify your argument. It's nice to see you actually know the facts of what you're arguing. Not.

Stalling is when the conflict ceases, and the game becomes unplayable. That is the definition brought to you by the SBR. That is what occurs when King Dedede uses the infinite.

And why the **** are you arguing about how short the infinite could be in theory? We're not arguing theory craft. Use actual facts to support your words, don't throw me these little examples you like to pop out of your ***.

 

[viparagon]

It doesn't.

It just creates 90/10 matches and negates several characters that have absolutely no real reason to be negated because they are actually decent.

It's extremely lame, easy to do, boring to watch, and nearly impossible to avoid.

It's banned because it destroys fun and competitiveness.

good point, a tech doesn't need to break the game to be banned. MK doesn't either

 

[BigLøu]

A lot of people are acting like ddd NEEDS this infinite in order to win a match up, and as it turns out the people that don't want it banned don't know what it's like to lose a tourney match to this gay ****. I just can't say ggs to an infiniter.

 

[XienZo]

Times that by three. You still have two more stocks.

That's more than half the time limit.

1 minute for 300 damage, 5o seconds for 50% to 300%, 2 stocks equal 100 seconds, because after you get grabbed the third time, the DDD isn't going to grab you to stall...

Does this result in a kill, or does the match end from the timer?

If it's the first, then no, it's not stalling. If it's the latter, then yes it is. Hence why D3's infinites aren't stalling, but the IDC is.

So if the pikmin uses falcon punch on you every 5 minutes, its OK?

 

[pure_awesome]

It's nice to see you actually know the facts of what you're arguing. Not. :

...did a "NOT!" joke just make it into this thread?

Awesome.

 

[CO18]

If you think it shouldnt be banned. You have no reason other than you being dumb and care more about ******** irrational subjective thinking such as It only effects 5 characters yet we ban stages because of moves that only effect a certain amount of characters. However if everyone was effected by it except 2 characters it should definitley be banned even though youre being a hypocritcal ****** because its the same **** youve been arguing in the fact that you "can" counterpick.

seriously grow some balls and just think about the gay **** ****.

Anyway im tired of wasting my time so "Im done here".

CANT WAIT TO 3 STOCK BUM BECAUSE I AM SO AMAZING IF I PLAY HIM WOOOOOOTOOTTOTTTT I AM SO ****ING GOOD OMGOMOGMEOGMOAMFOSMD>

IMA 3 STOCK YOUR *** BOSS AND XYRO BE PREPARED *****ES I AM SO ****ING GOODDDDDDDDDDD

DAMMADSADSDADSDASDADDSAD

/SARCASM.

 

[viparagon]

...did a "NOT!" joke just make it into this thread?

Awesome.

pure awsome. Broken humormeter FTW!

 

[ShadowLink84]

The MvC2 characters were overpowered as a whole, and are completely irrelevant to the argument. In order to make the other characters viable, the top four characters would have had to be banned completely.

Wait what? them being overpowered makes it irrelevant? how?
In fact let me use something more suited the.
Magneto's infinite.
Was it banned?

This is not the case here. To make the unlucky 5 viable again, we just need to ban an easily abusable tactic that borders on stalling.

Which unfairly prevents DDD from using his capabilities to the full extent.
let alone how can yo dictate how long before its an infinite?
5? 6? 7?
What damage percent?
how long?
Does it break the game and cause overcentralizing?

The MvC2 characters are more like Fox v Pika. They're hopelessly outclassed, but they can at least still fight back.

The same for DDD vs mario,Luig,Samus, Bowser, DK.

They get ***** by the grb but hey can fight back and try to avoid the grab. DK has the largest issue but you aren't guaranteed to get grabbed.
let alone that DDD has more on those characters than just his grab. Except for DK.

 

[bobson]

Sometimes I wonder if you guys just argue for the sake of arguing.

We would never do anything like that. Prove me wrong.

 

[Ulevo]

Having complete control isn't stalling, stalling is preventing a game from developing. Before he has reached enough damage to actually kill the character he is merely developing the death combo to it's natural progression, the death of his opponent.

When DDD grabs an opponent, if it's an infinitable character, that's a stock loss. Just as surely as if a Falco grabs a character in the proper position to do his dthrow to dair. Or any other death combo you could think of.

Sure, the possibility exists to use it for the purpose of stalling, but that's why we have to figure out what percentage DDD needs to be assured a kill and establish that after that point, it's stalling. .

Having complete control for an excessive amount of time in which you are completely safe from harm is considered stalling.

You can't create your own definition.

And for the record, it takes around 1:15 to do an infinite from 0 - 300%. That is without pummels, and that wasn't even tested with the actual infinite, which is slower. This can happen three times a match for a total of over four minutes. Even if you were to define a proper percentage range, there is no way you couldn't consider it stalling, since it would have to be around 300% anyway.

 

[Overswarm]

If you think it shouldnt be banned. You have no reason other than you being dumb and care more about ******** irrational subjective thinking such as It only effects 5 characters yet we ban stages because of moves that only effect a certain amount of characters. However if everyone was effected by it except 2 characters it should definitley be banned even though youre being a hypocritcal ****** because its the same **** youve been arguing in the fact that you "can" counterpick.

seriously grow some balls and just think about the gay **** ****.

Anyway im tired of wasting my time so "Im done here".

CANT WAIT TO 3 STOCK BUM BECAUSE I AM SO AMAZING IF I PLAY HIM WOOOOOOTOOTTOTTTT I AM SO ****ING GOOD OMGOMOGMEOGMOAMFOSMD>

IMA 3 STOCK YOUR *** BOSS AND XYRO BE PREPARED *****ES I AM SO ****ING GOODDDDDDDDDDD

DAMMADSADSDADSDASDADDSAD

/SARCASM.

We ban stages for multiple reasons, not just single things. True, D3's chain grab plays a big part... but there are other factors. Besides, D3's chain grab works on a majority of the cast. This works on only a select few.

 

[Calixto]

Which unfairly prevents DDD from using his capabilities to the full extent.
let alone how can yo dictate how long before its an infinite?
5? 6? 7?
What damage percent?
how long?
Does it break the game and cause overcentralizing?

Just make him do the running CG and not the standing one. Simple. Simple as pie. Simple as ****ing blueberry pie.

 

[CO18]

Oh Snap Just Taught My Mom How To Press L+a On My Controller And How To Infinite.

Yeah Bum What Now Nigg@ My Mom Is About To 3 Stock Yo ***.

Same To You Boss Lets Go She Is So **** Good Been Playing This Game A Whole 2 Minutes.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Contradiction between the first sentence and final part.
If it doesn't destroy the game how does it destro competitiveness?
Fun is subjective so don't bring it up.

Again there is fox vs Pikachu matchup. Should we ban the tactics that give Pikachu such a massive advantage?

What about in SF2 where E honda goes 9-1 with fireball users? ban the fireball usage when he faces those characters?

Edit: Which reminds me, do you know anyone who can make me a Shadowlink sig to replace the sig I have now?

it destroys competitiveness because it lacks any decent level of skill. Destroying competition between two characters =/= breaking the game.

Again the pikachu match up is like that because pikachu was pretty much made to counter fox not because he has a move that was made to counter fox. The chain grab isn't a 0 to death and its just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[BentoBox]

Wrong because it is a FACT.

Bolded part is self defeating. Walk offs were not banned solely because of DDD's infinite.
We have seen from experience what is ban worthy and what is not.

I know of no other reasons as to why the map couldn't have been a simple counterpick other than the fact that it's a walk-off on both ends. Do you? And if so, please do name them.

Does DDD's infinities break the game or cause overcentralizing where its "do the infinite or lose?". No.

I also find it funny you are trying to call people on being subjective but you yourself are being subjective in saying that the infinite is worthy of bing banned just because it affects those 5 characters. Are you yourself not enacting standards on what would be ban worthy?

I'M NOT BEING SUBJECTIVE BY SAYING THAT IT SHOULD BE BANNED. I AM SAYING IT SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE WE'VE LIMITED ASPECTS OF THE GAME FOR THE SAME REASONS, AND IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH THAT IDEAL, THAN WE ARE BEING INCOHERENT IN OUR CHOICES AND REGULATIONS. 1 GRAB = 1 STOCK? BAN. 1 GRAB = 1 STOCK? BAN! SEE? SAME THING! THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION ABOUT WHICHEVER ACTION WE SHOULD GO FOR DEPENDING ON THE RATIO OF CHARACTERS THAT WERE AFFECTED THEN, SO WHY NOW? HOW IS YOUR ARGUMENT VALID?

In caps so you don't miss it ;].

Andd quoting sliq, AGAIN

Wall infinited do not work on everyone. Characters that are too light to be CG will not be wall infinited. FURTHERMORE, you need a wall to be infinited against, whereas D3 can infinite the others WHENEVER HE FEELS LIKE IT. That means you have to be in between D3 and a wall, whereas with DK and Bowser, simply EXISTING ON SCREEN gives him all the oppurtunities he requires.

The flatland throw infinite is considerably more broken then the wall infinites, but stages with walls are banned.

Why not force everyone that plays a character capable of being CG to switch characters on walled stages? I mean, you're forcing DK and Bowser players to switch on ANY stage. You can't have double standards like this and call yourself the elite. It makes the community look like a bunch of *******.

Either walled stages aren't banned and the infinite is allowed, or walled stages are banned and the infinite is banned.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Having complete control for an excessive amount of time in which you are completely safe from harm is considered stalling.

Then what about the combos in melee?
Or Sheik's CG in melee?
let alone that i can just say "I am getting him to killing percents.

You can't create your own definition.

you can't twist it either.

And for the record, it takes around 1:15 to do an infinite from 0 - 300%. That is without pummels, and that wasn't even tested with the actual infinite, which is slower. This can happen three times a match for a total of over four minutes. Even if you were to define a proper percentage range, there is no way you couldn't consider it stalling, since it would have to be around 300% anyway.

I am sorry but why would DDD go up to 300% with the infinite when he can kill the opponent off before that?

I don't have a wi with me currently can you bring up DDD's killing percents for his throws?

 

[CO18]

We ban stages for multiple reasons, not just single things. True, D3's chain grab plays a big part... but there are other factors. Besides, D3's chain grab works on a majority of the cast. This works on only a select few.

Yeah but theyre has to be a line to how much is too much. How come you can decide when too many characters is too much.

IMO 5 characters being infinited is way too much. IMO 1 character being infinited would be way too much.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

We ban stages for multiple reasons, not just single things. True, D3's chain grab plays a big part... but there are other factors. Besides, D3's chain grab works on a majority of the cast. This works on only a select few.

If your perfectly ok with letting this work on 5 character you should allow the IDC to work on 5 characters. This could get MK banned

 

[cutter]

Just make him do the running CG and not the standing one. Simple. Simple as pie. Simple as ****ing blueberry pie.

What if I alternate between walking grabs, standing grabs, and dashgrabs?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

What if I alternate between walking grabs, standing grabs, and dashgrabs?

then you aren't doing the running CG and breaking the rules duh!

 

[CO18]

What if I alternate between walking grabs, standing grabs, and dashgrabs?

There is no walking grab wtf.

Him saying just do the running grab is saying he should just be able to cg and NOT infinite and hes right.

There is no alternating shiz.

Its just ban the infinite then he can only cg.

 

[Calixto]

What if I alternate between walking grabs, standing grabs, and dashgrabs?

What I mean is you can't do Some Grab -> Standing Grab. You would have to do Some Grab -> Run Grab -> Run Grab to the edge and then dance or do your taxes or whatever it is you feel like doing once you get there.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It doesn't.

It just creates 90/10 matches and negates several characters that have absolutely no real reason to be negated because they are actually decent.

It's extremely lame, easy to do, boring to watch, and nearly impossible to avoid.

It's banned because it destroys fun and competitiveness.

Sounds like MK...

Fun is a subjective factor, we do not ban for fun.

It creates bad match-ups, it happens all the time in fighting games, that is not anti-competitive.

Stalling is when the conflict ceases, and the game becomes unplayable. That is the definition brought to you by the SBR. That is what occurs when King Dedede uses the infinite.

I'm sorry, but that's a horrible defination. It applies for any combo whatsoever, because any true combo means that you lose control for a set period of time. In smash less so, but most fighting games don't have DI.

Heck, it applies for uninterruptibile animations, like throws.

Having complete control for an excessive amount of time in which you are completely safe from harm is considered stalling.

You can't create your own definition.

And for the record, it takes around 1:15 to do an infinite from 0 - 300%. That is without pummels, and that wasn't even tested with the actual infinite, which is slower. This can happen three times a match for a total of over four minutes. Even if you were to define a proper percentage range, there is no way you couldn't consider it stalling, since it would have to be around 300% anyway.

Again, you are not trying to stall, you are inflicting a stock loss. There is development in the match.

Define "excessive", I already pointed out the general issue with the definition above.

Soft rules don't work, that's why I oppose the rule against stalling, but not banning of individual stalling techniques (depending on the situation of course).

 

[ShadowLink84]

I know of no other reasons as to why the map couldn't have been a simple counterpick other than the fact that it's a walk-off on both ends. Do you? And if so, please do name them.

Just being a walk off wasn't the reason. it is because what you can do with it. DDD had his CG but there were many characters who were capable of simply B throwing you and killing you.
The game fell down to killing each other at the edge of the sides.
Not because DDD can Cg from one side to the other, but because every other character and their grandma could back camp.

There was also the issue with camping.

I'M NOT BEING SUBJECTIVE BY SAYING THAT IT SHOULD BE BANNED. I AM SAYING IT SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE WE'VE LIMITED ASPECTS OF THE GAME FOR THE SAME REASONS, AND IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH THAT IDEAL, THAN WE ARE BEING INCOHERENT IN OUR CHOICES AND REGULATIONS. 1 GRAB = 1 STOCK? BAN. 1 GRAB = 1 STOCK? BAN! SEE? SAME THING! THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION ABOUT WHICHEVER ACTION WE SHOULD GO FOR DEPENDING ON THE RATIO OF CHARACTERS THAT WERE AFFECTED THEN, SO WHY NOW? HOW IS YOUR ARGUMENT VALID?

I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE BEING SUBJECTIVE FOR WANTING IT BANNED. I AM ACLLING YOU SUBJECTIVE ON THE FACT THAT YOU BELIEVE AN INFINITE ON 5 CHARACTERS IS WORTHY ENOUGH FOR A BAN. THE REASON WHY THE RATIO MATTERS IS (AS STATED BEFORE) IT DICTATES IF THE TACTIC IS DAMAGING ENOUGH THAT IT HINDERS THE GAMEPLAY AS A WHOLE. NO ONE CARES IF 5 CHARACTER GET HARD COUNTERED. PEOPLE CARE IF A MASSIVE MAJORITY OF CHARACTERS ARE AFFECTED

In caps so you don't miss it ;].

Same for you.

Andd quoting sliq, AGAIN

In case you did not understand the first time. We banned the stages because it stopped the infinites. Those infinitis were user by a massive amount of the cast. this cause the game to over centralize around the fact of getting the opponent to the wall and then performing an infinite on them. Not because of the infinite itself, not because characters became unviable, but because it caused overcentralizing and damaged competitive gameplay as a whole.

Stop quoting Sliq like he is the end of all competitive knowledge please.

 

[cutter]

The chaingrab where D3 walks slightly forward to regrab his victim is I'm talking about.

And technically that's not an infinite; it's just a really long chaingrab.

 

[M15t3R E]

Which unfairly prevents DDD from using his capabilities to the full extent.
let alone how can yo dictate how long before its an infinite?
5? 6? 7?
What damage percent?
how long?
Does it break the game and cause overcentralizing?

You are SO right. We should not prevent a character from using the full extent of their abilities. Therefore, you must want Meta Knight's infinite dimensional cape unbanned. That's an ability of his. It's not fair that he can't make use of it.
Now, how can you sit there and tell us that around a minute and a half of D3's infinite from 0 to 300 can't be considered stalling? Compound that with the fact that you have more than one stock in a match...
It DOES unfairly create almost 100 to 0 match-ups vs. characters that can be infinited.

 

[CO18]

The chaingrab where D3 walks slightly forward to regrab his victim is I'm talking about.

And technically that's not an infinite; it's just a really long chaingrab.

Thats only on bowser and were just talking about infinites. Not really long chaingrabs.

 

[Mortimer]

1 minute for 300 damage, 5o seconds for 50% to 300%, 2 stocks equal 100 seconds, because after you get grabbed the third time, the DDD isn't going to grab you to stall...

So if the pikmin uses falcon punch on you every 5 minutes, its OK?

Er, are you arguing that it's stalling or not? It seems like you're just having fun, here.

Anyways, a falcon punch every 5 minutes wouldn't result in 3 stocks. Let me try to take your example further:

The Pikmin uses a falcon punch after 2 minutes. The punch is always a kill. Every time you die, Olimar comes out of hiding, drops the Pikmin back on you, and hides again. The match is done in ~6 minutes.

Nope, not stalling. The match may suck, but he's got a winning strategy and isn't abusing the timer.