Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[AllyKnight]

I was playing vs Lucas stupidly, trying grab release which doesnt work on Lucas but only on Ness and getting punish for doing so, ill beat him next time + i sucked I was sleeping during low tier XD

 

[n00b]

^ NO JOHNS ALLY

carry on

ps samus is garbage, and I tend to agree with no idea.

 

[IsmaR]

His aerials aren't horrible, but none of them are particularly good. His best aerials are F-air and N-air, and his F-air is outclassed every day of the week as a spacing tool by several characters, and his N-air has pretty crap priority (although I will give, it's good on shields).

His other aerials are meh at best. U-air doesn't kill early enough and has too much commitment. D-air has waaaaay too much commitment and is very predictable. B-air has too much startup.

Personally I think his U-air is the best. You can FF it with no lag to juggle, does decent damage, and most people think it sucks in comparison to Ness'(other way around). I shouldn't be trying to preach Lucas4STier here, though.

Snip because I'm blind

1. So I see. Arguing and being an *** are different things, though. You have your view, others have theirs. Neither is right for sure, there is no need to force things onto people this way.

2. I beg to differ, but I see your point.

3. Very true. I'm still under the belief that U-tilt is still a better move than it is given credit for, though.

4. It's not about you. Belittled or not, people disagreed with you. There's no arguing you have experience in the MU, but you're assuming too much.

5.

Spoiler

Kosk says hai

But yeah. I've found that out the hard way, and I'll agree to that.

6. Understood.

7. Relying on D-tilt is why most people can beat it out now. Samus has options, whether you acknoledge them or not. Be they good or bad.

8. Same and agreed, for the most part.

9. Again, assuming too much. I'll admit I did not know that, but to say that people don't have experience there(you, Xyro, and ___ aren't the only competitive Samus mains. Plus, dead boards are dead and whatnot.

10. You said a mouthful.

11. I could argue here, but I'd rather not get into a big argument here.

12. 1st sentence = Welcome to the SWF Samus boards. Rarely see people taking advantage of her floaty aspect = Agreed, agreed, sooooo agreed. Last sentence = agreed

Spoiler

until camping&Z-air, camping&Z-air is for nubz

13. I respect that.

I dont get what the big deal is about where she is on the tier list. Prove she's better; go out there and beat the top players, and come up with concrete facts about her positives and negatives. I had a couple sbr members talk to me (in person/via swf) telling me that my thread about taking samus to the next level and my performance against top level players (videos & in tourney) really opened there eyes to possibilities. The people who make the tier list actually ENCOURAGE people to prove them wrong; and many dont.

And samus does lack flat out killing power ONSTAGE. Thats why any good samus plays aggressively OFFSTAGE. And not just throwing out spikes...actually understanding how to limit options offstage and capitalize. I cant think of how many times i force an mk into thinking Side B was their best recovery option.... only to get out prioritized by my charged shot!

I ****in' love you.

Spoiler

This might be my only chance to say Omg hai Ally and have him ignore it.

Omg hai Ally

 

[NO-IDea]

lol

The point of me arguing is to change their mind with evidence. If that results in me crushing their opinion, so be it. If I don't do it, they're going to keep playing under such false notions and won't stop until someone else finally tells them to after beating them. And have I ever discriminated? You like me when I argue with Xyro or against some mainstream idea, but you hate on me when I argue with a newcomer. Thanks?

I may sound like an ***, but it's better than them thinking they're right, then going off playing Samus like that and spreading misconceptions. It's not about me or you, it's about Samus, and if some knucklehead comes to these boards with the wrong idea, I expect one of us, you, myself, Xyro, Cherry, n00b, someone to put them down and tell them what's right, not ignore them or let them figure out for themselves. That's not the point of the Samus boards.

The only one I've attacked regarding lack of experience is A2Z, but his argument clearly shows that. You and I can both agree on that. I would expect to for you to tell him he's wrong regarding the Ness/Lucas MUs as well, not shrug it off.

It's elitist only when you simply ignore those with the wrong idea and leave them to their own demise. Telling them how to fix their bad habits and become a better player falls more along the lines of a fellow Samus main who wants more competition, not an elitist who ignores their post and lets them stay at their low level. The boards are dead because of elitist Samus mains who only post here to laugh at jokes and not contribute. Don't dare try accusing me of such offense.

EDIT: Also, regarding the "**** anyone who thinks different," that was concerning the Mario v Samus MU only. I apologize if that offended you. I have very strong feelings for that, because I messed up terribad in my last low tier tourney when I could have won. And for people to claim that it's easier than I think upsets me, just like how it upsets Xyro how I tell him the Sonic MU isn't as bad as he thinks. We're settling that at Kosha. Heck, n00b's first vid against Sonik proves that MU in general. He did all the right things against Sonic and it was complete ****.

@Carter: Your guide is one of the most useful guides I've ever read, helpful more as a player than as a Samus main. Props to you on that.

@A2Z: Who are you using against his Samus? I'm actually curious to see how his Samus beating you. I love watching/playing other Samus's with different characters. ^^

 

[IsmaR]

The point of me arguing is to change their mind with evidence. If that results in me crushing their opinion, so be it. If I don't do it, they're going to keep playing under such false notions and won't stop until someone else finally tells them to after beating them. And have I ever discriminated? You like me when I argue with Xyro or against some mainstream idea, but you hate on me when I argue with a newcomer. Thanks?

Unless you're the one who is wrong. I didn't say you discriminate, nor imply that I do or do not. For all you know, I don't like you at all. I love you.

I may sound like an ***, but it's better than them thinking they're right, then going off playing Samus like that and spreading misconceptions.

lol

It's not about me or you, it's about Samus, and if some knucklehead comes to these boards with the wrong idea, I expect one of us, you, myself, Xyro, Cherry, n00b, someone to put them down and tell them what's right, not ignore them or let them figure out for themselves. That's not the point of the Samus boards.

Take a hint.

The only one I've attacked regarding lack of experience is A2Z, but his argument clearly shows that. You and I can both agree on that. I would expect to for you to tell him he's wrong regarding the Ness/Lucas MUs as well, not shrug it off.

I didn't shrug it off?

It's elitist only when you simply ignore those with the wrong idea and leave them to their own demise.

This plays back to my theory about Xyro.

Telling them how to fix their bad habits and become a better player falls more along the lines of a fellow Samus main who wants more competition, not an elitist who ignores their post and lets them stay at their low level. The boards are dead because of elitist Samus mains who only post here to laugh at jokes and not contribute. Don't dare try accusing me of such offense.

Would it be inappropriate to say chill out right about now?

EDIT: Also, regarding the "**** anyone who thinks different," that was concerning the Mario v Samus MU only.

The point still stands.

I apologize if that offended you. I have very strong feelings for that, because I messed up terribad in my last low tier tourney when I could have won. And for people to claim that it's easier than I think upsets me, just like how it upsets Xyro how I tell him the Sonic MU isn't as bad as he thinks. We're settling that at Kosha. Heck, n00b's first vid against Sonik proves that MU in general. He did all the right things against Sonic and it was complete ****.

I can understand that. What I can't understand if taking it that far. :L

Enough arguing here. Whether this is the place to discuss it or not, I admit it was wrong of me to call you out like that. I apologize. We should let the on topic discussion resume.

 

[Xyro77]

Geez its so hard to argue withsome one who just doesnt play the higher level people. They dont understand ****

 

[NO-IDea]

@Ismar: You don't love me. You hate me. It's painfully clear. ;_;

@Xyro: It's that attitude that I'm getting associated with. Great... the sad part is that you're not particularly wrong either.

In other news... n-air has horrible hitstun, and on top of the horrible hitstun on jab, I'm finding a hard time chaining it all into something significant.

Is there any way we could have more detailed frame data? I'm no good with that kind of thing so perhaps we should recruit someone from the other boards to find the Samus frame data.

 

[Rhyme]

I've learned more about MUs ratios from better players that distinctly contradict what is discussed here

It's either I'm brutally honest, or I'm too lazy to waste my time arguing. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I never have from the beginning.

In my own defense, the two contraversial MUs I preached about were with players who I'd played several times before. I chose to stand up against those characters on the boards because I felt that my experience with the players was legitimate.

I stopped being nearly as vocal on the boards for mostly this reason. I can't argue when I haven't proven myself to the boards, but I wouldn't feel like teaching if by some miracle I had already proven myself.

I had a couple sbr members talk to me (in person/via swf) telling me that my thread about taking samus to the next level and my performance against top level players (videos & in tourney) really opened there eyes to possibilities. The people who make the tier list actually ENCOURAGE people to prove them wrong; and many dont.

*often unheard view of the SBR*

12. 1st sentence = Welcome to the SWF Samus boards. Rarely see people taking advantage of her floaty aspect = Agreed, agreed, sooooo agreed. Last sentence = agreed

Spoiler

until camping&Z-air, camping&Z-air is for nubz

I kind of dislike the idea of camping unless I feel that the MU requires it. That said, most people I play (and top players I travel with) usually ask me why I don't plank more with Samus. If it's what's expected of the character, and she is good at it, then it's probably not for nubz, lol.

I may sound like an ***, but it's better than them thinking they're right, then going off playing Samus like that and spreading misconceptions. It's not about me or you, it's about Samus, and if some knucklehead comes to these boards with the wrong idea, I expect one of us, you, myself, Xyro, Cherry, n00b, someone to put them down and tell them what's right, not ignore them or let them figure out for themselves. That's not the point of the Samus boards.

It's elitist only when you simply ignore those with the wrong idea and leave them to their own demise.

You should let people play Samus however they have fun playing Samus rather than telling them what they're doing wrong. The lower Samus stays on the tier list, the more impressive you look for being awesome with her. Besides, there's no "correct" way to play any character. I don't play Samus similarly to any other Samus I've seen in videos, but I seem to do just fine.

It's arrogant to spew your opinions at them when they were not asked for. It's only elitist to leave someone to his/her own demise if he/she asks for help.

Enough arguing here. Whether this is the place to discuss it or not, I admit it was wrong of me to call you out like that. I apologize. We should let the on topic discussion resume.

<3

 

[NO-IDea]

In my own defense, the two contraversial MUs I preached about were with players who I'd played several times before. I chose to stand up against those characters on the boards because I felt that my experience with the players was legitimate.

I stopped being nearly as vocal on the boards for mostly this reason. I can't argue when I haven't proven myself to the boards, but I wouldn't feel like teaching if by some miracle I had already proven myself.

In your defense, the f-air idea against Olimar wasn't half-bad. It worked to a certain extent.

I kind of dislike the idea of camping unless I feel that the MU requires it. That said, most people I play (and top players I travel with) usually ask me why I don't plank more with Samus. If it's what's expected of the character, and she is good at it, then it's probably not for nubz, lol.

There's nothing wrong with playing a campy Samus a.k.a. Spamus though. It's her strongest asset and to deny use of that would be handicapping yourself (and you've already handicapped yourself by using Samus in the first place.) That isn't to say she can't be used for casual play. But if someone chooses to discuss Samus in the competitive standard, they can't honestly argue that camping is not the best option in nearly all scenarios.

(I'm not implying that you camp all game, but I am saying that it'd be reckless to always rush in with d-air/n-air when you could do safe damage with z-air repetitively.)

You should let people play Samus however they have fun playing Samus rather than telling them what they're doing wrong. The lower Samus stays on the tier list, the more impressive you look for being awesome with her. Besides, there's no "correct" way to play any character. I don't play Samus similarly to any other Samus I've seen in videos, but I seem to do just fine.

It's arrogant to spew your opinions at them when they were not asked for. It's only elitist to leave someone to his/her own demise if he/she asks for help.

Not to sound like a "he started it" fool, but he quoted me, questioning the fact that Samus can't kill, then went to defend himself through his friend's experience, later to tell us his friend only just picked up Samus. So in that regard, he did ask for it. Look back a couple pages and read again.

First off, he doesn't main Samus, let alone use her. Second off, his friend only started using her for a month or so. Already that tells me that he's only just learning how to fight the Samus MU and that his opinion is severely skewed by his friend's recent success.

I never told A2Z how to play Samus. (If you consider me suggesting camping is a safer playstyle as "this is how you play Samus" then wow.) I told him he was wrong in his view towards Samus's inherent weaknesses and then went on to prove my point through facts.

Because he chose to enter this thread to speak about Samus's standing in the competitive playing field (not for casual play of which I couldn't care less how Samus is played) he naturally must accept that he stands to be corrected. The fact that Samus can't kill is not an opinion. It's a fact. The fact that he can't get through Samus's spam yet does not mean it makes up for her KO weakness. It shows a lack of experience in his inability to get through it, of which I'm sure in due time he will figure it out.

Call me elitist if it means I think it's bull**** he can come here and spout false claims and get away with it. Call me arrogant if you think I am forcing my opinions on him. But I never considered Samus not being able to kill being an opinion.

Hell, I even tried to avoid arguing with him, and then IsmaR goes out to say I'm an elitist for not bothering to argue, then you call me arrogant for arguing.

You can all insult me after you get your facts straightened out and re-read the thread again. But right now, your accusations annoy me, especially since I value both your and IsmaR's opinions.

 

[Rhyme]

Hell, I even tried to avoid arguing with him, and then IsmaR goes out to say I'm an elitist for not bothering to argue, then you call me arrogant for arguing.

You can all insult me after you get your facts straightened out and re-read the thread again. But right now, your accusations annoy me, especially since I value both your and IsmaR's opinions.

I'm sorry for falsly accusing you. I read less than one page back. I didn't even read the other guy's posts because I was in a hurry, just a few of yours and Ismar's because I respect you two.

I'm not mad or anything. On the contrary, I think it's funny that you're acting like a bit of an *** because you're pretty much right in what you're saying.

 

[NO-IDea]

I'm sorry I sound like an *** in that regard. I was already depressed from my previous tourney placing and then came to the boards to find out some guy is stating that Samus can kill which then makes me wonder "If this guy is right, how the hell could Mario f-smash me before I could kill him when he's at 140%?" Which then ultimately puts more blame on my inability to win. =/

But whatever. Btw, can't wait till Kosha. 3 days away!!!

 

[tha_carter]

Hi Rhyme =D


And its bad if your comparing it to a good jab. But that doesnt make it useless. It has flinch stun, like the first hit of marths side b. So sometimes (low percentages) it can go back and forth with another samus jab for a while until the second hit of jab actually connects. But this is erased in higher percentages. It slightly raises the opponent off the ground, giving them 3 frames to react until they hit the ground, ( most people cant react quick enough/ dont have that fast of an airdodge oraerial). And then adds and extra 4 frames due to their landing animations lag before they can even shield. Meaning at certain percents, on certain characters...she has a 7 frame advantage.

 

[LanceStern]

AM I doing something wrong or does Samus die easier than other characters?

Even though she's heavier and I do all the DI/momentum cancelling I want, she still dies ridiculously fast for her weight class. Does aerial mobility have ANYTHING to do with it?

 

[Xyro77]

@Ismar: You don't love me. You hate me. It's painfully clear. ;_;

@Xyro: It's that attitude that I'm getting associated with. Great... the sad part is that you're not particularly wrong either.

In other news... n-air has horrible hitstun, and on top of the horrible hitstun on jab, I'm finding a hard time chaining it all into something significant.

Is there any way we could have more detailed frame data? I'm no good with that kind of thing so perhaps we should recruit someone from the other boards to find the Samus frame data.

What data do u need exactly? I did the frame data and I can get more.


Oh and do not feel bad when u are associated with me or my thinking. I'm the best for a reason. Unlike most, I get out there and do **** while others theory craft and play wifi or lvl9s

 

[NO-IDea]

Lol... data along the lines of Carter's reasoning for jab's use at high percentages. Clearly, it shows we can actually combo f-tilt into jab 1 at higher percentages. Although his data was generic. (landing animation lag, etc.)

I refer to the data being specific like...

Forward Tilt
Hit: 7-11
End: 39
IASA: 35
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE: -22
Tipper Shield Stun: 12
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -27

This was the data for Marth's f-tilt for example. It shows at what frame it hits (which we have), what frame it ends, IASA if applicable, shield stun and frame advantage.

Or something like this:

Hits on Frame: 6-13
Duration: 37
Hitlag: 9
Blockstun: 4
Blockhitlag: 9

This is Snake's f-tilt. Basically I want to know what frame moves end, and furthermore, any frame advantage we have if we hit them or hit their shield.. this way we can sort out what's definitive and really be able to compare movesets. (Like backside of our d-smash hitting faster than MK's backside of d-smash, etc.)

@LanceStern: The fact that she has a lack-luster fast fall means her momentum canceling isn't as significant as say Link's or Snake's. We still have being heavy on our side, but vertical KO's tend to kill us maybe only 10% above the norm (Mario) compared to the other heavies killing them 20-30%.

You should be able to survive horizontal kill moves just fine however, because u-air ends rather fast (I don't have the frame data for when it ends ironically) which means you can mash on your double jump to survive. Just still remember to fast fall the u-air, it is still significant.

 

[DelxDoom]

i think we should try to stop "chaining moves together"

 

[Rhyme]

Meaning at certain percents, on certain characters...she has a 7 frame advantage.

Hii. : )

Even at lower percents, Samus' first hit of jab combos into stuff if the opponent was airborn when you hit them...which admittedly is difficult to accomplish in the first place. It's also more dramatic on light characters from what I've experienced. What I mean is, G&W can would be more easily jab->Dsmashed than Snake.

AM I doing something wrong or does Samus die easier than other characters?

Diminishing attacks can go a long way here. Some ROBs will kill far earlier with Nair/Bair because they save those aerials until kill percentages. I use him as an example because I've survived a ROB Nair at about 170 in tourny...not because I have amazing DI, but because I let myself get hit by it while at lower percents. I actually won that match because I let the ROB abuse Nair.

I don't even know if this is your problem. All I know is, if Snake wants to hit me with Utilt at <105%, I'd probably let him.

i think we should try to stop "chaining moves together"

If I know what you're getting at then that's not what we're worried about. Frame data is useful for things besides chaining moves together. Mostly, I think it's used to determine what is unpunishable and what is punishable.

I've never been a fan of frame data because there's no way I'd remember what beats what vs what character and when. I prefer to experiment and see what happens. I'm not saying that a frame data discussion shouldn't continue, just that I may exclude myself from the list of helpful people. >.>

 

[NO-IDea]

i think we should try to stop "chaining moves together"

Haha, I know what you mean, but it'd be good information to have regardless.

For example. I want to see how easy/hard it is for Samus to SDI into Marth's DB in order to land u-air after DB3, before DB4. And if Samus can land u-air, if it has enough hitstun for Samus to then fast-fall the u-air and shield before Marth responds with DS, or even have enough hitstun to chain up+b off it. In order to know this, I would of course go practice it a bunch, but frame data would give me a brief picture of how lenient my timing has to be.

I've never been a fan of frame data because there's no way I'd remember what beats what vs what character and when. I prefer to experiment and see what happens. I'm not saying that a frame data discussion shouldn't continue, just that I may exclude myself from the list of helpful people. >.>

I'm not one for the specifics either, but I feel it's going to better my gameplay figuring out if it's possible (and how easy it is) to retaliate against certain multi hit move and attack strings out there:

Marth's DB: already gave example
Snake's f-tilt: I asked this in the Samus BR
MK's f-tilt: if we SDI away, can we avoid the last hit? Or if we can predict them switching from f-tilt 1 to d-tilt, can we then punish by SDIing up and then FF n-air?)
D3's u-air: How safe is it to be above him? Can we allow ourselves to get hit by his u-air, only to SDI left/right to avoid the last hit and pursue to spike/footstool him?

These are just high tier examples.

 

[DelxDoom]

it's actually a general tip to any brawl player for most lower tiered characters like samus, there's just so little hitstun that any sign of aggression after a successful hit can be punished by experienced players.

 

[LanceStern]

I agree both with NOID and DelxDoom.

I like frame data now that I can read it because it lets me know what I CAN do and generally wwhat is not safe to do. I learned it's better for me to punish with ftilt more so than anything because of it having the lowest end lag. At the same time if the opponent is near me, I want to dsmash because it has more shieldknockback and shieldstun.

But on the other hand Samus is low tiered for a reason. And one bad thing she has is a below-average agressive game where she has so little hitstun/fast moves that she gets punished.




And Xyro I would love deeper frame data too. The Marth/Snake examples are great, or even look at Peach frame data!

 

[NO-IDea]

I like frame data now that I can read it

Teach me please?

 

[1Zero99Lucia5]

i think we should try to stop "chaining moves together"

I agree...


It's better to just take some distance between you and your opponent, and think about what you're going to do next, or just observe everything. This helped me a lot in my latest tourney with Samus, I even won against a few Snake's/DDD's and even a MK! Also, if you want to kill your opponent off the edge, and there is no time for a Dair, just use a Nair. It leaves then open and even clashes with some recoveries of some high tiers.

 

[Mr9]

can anyone REALLY! read frames?

i mean were talking about 60 frames second...

no human has that fast of a response...

and if your talking about 1-10 frames than its impossible to react fast, it takes longer time for the information in your brain to reach your fingers than 1-10 frames.

 

[DelxDoom]

anyways

any time your opponent chooses to use attacks, dash attack is a pretty good move

 

[IsmaR]

If you can read my font without leaning in or highlighting then your eyes are good enough.

Spoiler

4realz.

It is very difficult, but possible. Obviously not everything will be frame perfect every time(or more than half the time in most cases).

@Doom - Agreed. But be wary.

 

[LanceStern]

By read frame data I mean when people posted it on SWF I understand what it means now.

 

[NO-IDea]

By read frame data I mean when people posted it on SWF I understand what it means now.

Again... teach me? I get some of it, but it would be better if someone walked me through it...

 

[LanceStern]

Here's a link to the topic I put on Brawl Tactical, it's a great forum
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254134

It's funny, I appreciate all of the hard work put into people that take the time to break down frames for us. It's a lot of hard work and opens up insight into what we can and cannot do in the game in relation to follow ups or breaking combos.

Problem is I can't understand it, and I haven't seen a topic that breaks it down for me. So I need someone's help in answering these questions.

2. How do I intepret the data? And I need this broken down so that a 10 year old will understand it. I can understand some of the easier terms like "begins on frame x" and "ends on frame x" but when I see shield stun and stuff then I get confused. Here are the common terms we see (Taken from Peach's Frame Data topic on the Peach Discussion board):

Fsmash; Golf club
Duration: 40
Hits on Frame: 15
Hitbox Duration: 15-19 (5)
Cooldown: 21
Charge Release: hits on frame 5

Shield Stun: 5
Shield Advantage: -21
Shield Drop advantage: -14

In particular:

Cooldown: What is this? Duration - the last hitbox possibility?
Shield Stun: What's it mean? Is that how many seconds the shield is stunned or how many frames?
Shield Advantage: I have no idea what a shield advantage is. I need this broken down specifically. And why a negative number?
Shield Drop Adv: Again, no idea.


3. How do I calculate a specific situation? Peach uses a Fsmash on metaknight who is shielding. How would I calculate if it's possible to drop shield and fsmash with metaknight? Step by step?

And for help, how many frames does it take to throw up a shield and drop it? What about out of a dash? How many frames to jump?

If anyone is patient enough to do that, I would really appreciate it. Don't get me started on aerials...

Cooldown is how long it is from the last frame of the hitbox until the last frame of the attack.
The Golf club's last frame of a hitbox is 19, the move ends on 40. That's 21 frames of cooldown/endlag

Shield Stun: It's how many frames the opponent's shield HAS to remain up before they can let it down.

Shield Advantage: How many frames of an advantage over your opponent you have from the time your move ends, compared to when they can act. A negative number means that they can act before you. After the gulf club ends, that have 21 frames to act before you can do anything.

Shield Drop Adv: It takes 7 frames to drop a shield. So, it's the advantage after the shield is down.


To determine that, you take the shield advantage, which is -21. Take shield drop out, so it's -17. You look at MK's frame data:
frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown

So, he has 17 frames, fsmash comes out of 24, so, you could shield/do any 7 frame or less move to beat his fsmash.

It takes one frame to put up a shield and 7 to take it down. I think jump frames vary by character.

Hope that helps.

And btw, I saw you placed 5th recently in a lowtier tournament. Did you learn anything while there? That's really good especially with Ally there and some other notable lt users

 

[NO-IDea]

Thank you very much. That was a very good walkthrough (and a nice thread too.)

I'm sure if we get specific frame data, we could see more uses of d-smash/u-smash. This is exciting ^^

EDIT: So... according to what I've learned (and I'm still not good at this) I think what Carter provided was wrong. Ugh, forgot where I read it, but...

Short hop landing lag is 2 frames:
Fast fall, falling from a high point, and landing from double jump: 4 frames

According to this, we don't have a 7 frame advantage, but rather a 5 frame advantage before they can shield. So... if they do have fast reaction time (which more than likely they aren't that fast so it's okay (but then again, you don't have to be fast to buffer shield)), we can't even chain d-tilt off of this. Now to be fair, if they're close range, we can actually legit chain another jab1 while they're in the air (Rhyme and Carter both stated this) but d-smash is quite a stretch.

Also, another question concerning frame data. When does Jab 2 hit? I'm asking this because...

JAB: Hits on frame 3.

JAB 2nd hit: Starts at frame 19. Hits at frame 24.

That sounds too long for that to be true. Also, if we jab cancel jab1 and buffer a f-tilt and d-tilt, is there any penalty on the cooldown? Or does the jab1 fully cooldown as normal, then the buffered command takes place?

We need frame data!

 

[NO-IDea]

Sorry for double post.

@Lance: Yeah, I'm kind of upset over that placing, but I'll do better this weekend (hopefully...)

I confirmed that fireballs do work in the Mario MU (I never doubted it, but at least now I have evidence to back this up) if spaced properly. Mario can shoot, then DI back, and if we want to connect z-air, we run the risk of fireball hitting us (and furthermore, interrupting the z-air hitbox.) I also learned that on BF, if you're above him, don't shield. Just jump away. His u-air can shield poke pretty well so I had to tilt it down, it has decent shield knockback so it knocked me off the platform numerous times, and his buffered u-air comes out before our n-air would after falling. Which is different to say that you can shield Marth's u-air, because there is no follow-up from that. So yeah.

I learned that stutter-step f-smash is insanely long and gay (I lost because of this tech. Sooooo close....)

As far as Lucas MU goes... well I screwed up game three and got stage spiked by PK Thunder. I almost had a comeback, but didn't make it. Mostly up+b OoS does work on n-air/d-air approach by Lucas.

Otherwise, camp the crap out of him, because going aggressive isn't worth it. I took half of his stocks gimping, the other half with d-tilt (I predicted where he would land after the n-air.) Don't spot dodge ever. U-tilt worked once, but for the one time it did work cost me like 8 failed attempts prior. (His f-air would hit first or his d-air would outrange me.)

I'll try again this weekend. Xyro will be in it too, how exciting.

 

[Rhyme]

(Rhyme and Carter both stated this) but d-smash is quite a stretch.

I'm pretty sure Dsmash is faster than Dtilt.

 

[NO-IDea]

D-TILT: Hits on frame 6.

D-SMASH: Hits on frame 9.

Yay frame data. =P

(Whether or not this is accurate is another story, but I think it is?)

 

[IsmaR]

lol69teehee

 

[Mr9]

if you guys think it work than thats cool i just know that there is no way a human cant count individual frames it has nothing to do with eye sight its how fast its moving.

 

[NO-IDea]

lol, 69, I'm sad I didn't get that first...

I mean, we're not saying a human can actually react to this stuff all the time. But it's good to know regardless whether or not a combo works. For example, wouldn't you want to know if you could punish MK's d-smash with d-tilt? Rather than try for it, only for MK to perfect shield and up+b you?

Don't know how else to explain it really. I'm not saying I'm big on frame data, but I've gotten to the point that researching it (Not just Samus's movesets, but everyone's movesets) is going to help my game by a small amount, which could make all the difference in my matches.

 

[Mr9]

lol, 69, I'm sad I didn't get that first...

I mean, we're not saying a human can actually react to this stuff all the time. But it's good to know regardless whether or not a combo works. For example, wouldn't you want to know if you could punish MK's d-smash with d-tilt? Rather than try for it, only for MK to perfect shield and up+b you?

Don't know how else to explain it really. I'm not saying I'm big on frame data, but I've gotten to the point that researching it (Not just Samus's movesets, but everyone's movesets) is going to help my game by a small amount, which could make all the difference in my matches.

hmmmmmmm.......

i see what you mean now but it seems to usless

 

[LanceStern]

Frames help you figure out what you can or cannot do in certain situations without having to learn the hard way or through faulty timing on training/vs mode.

If I hit diddy kongs' shield with a dsmash, I want to know if I can do something to punish his shield stun or if I'm better off reseting position. Frame data helps you figure that out without playing, but you should check in game as well.

It also lets you know if certain attacks are worth using in certain situations. If ftilt only causes 3 frames of shield stun and your opponent has 30 frames to do something to you while your animation wears off, I'm going to severely limit my usage of that move

 

[DelxDoom]

diddy can punish just about everything out of shield tbh
with banana in hand obv

 

[LanceStern]

Yes that was just an example

 

[1Zero99Lucia5]

How exactly can you view frame data ? I need some frame data for a personal project