Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[NO-IDea]

How do I use jab to do anything besides get shieldgrabbed? Everything I try to cancel into will get shielded (even jab2, what the **** is that **** how can you have a jab combo that can be ****ing shielded after the first hit?? **** you sakurai), and jab > grab only works here and there and leaves me bent over with my pants down when it doesn't. Random stuff like jab > retreating down-B doesn't really get me anywhere, either, although it is kinda fun.

First and foremost, specials after jabs don't work. (Exception is jabbing someone in the air, followed up by up+b. Up+b has a huge hitbox on aerial opponents.) All other specials take too long.

Secondly, I don't understand what you're doing that up close with Samus. She can't kill. To make an example, she's not Peach where she can't kill until high percentages. Because Peach has a plethora of easy to land kill moves. No, Samus just can't kill period. Therefore, you should be trying to poke damage rather than playing it up close. Play like the French Defense in chess: buckle up and wear him out. It's not initiative you need; you need to wait until they give you an opportunity to explode with one of Samus's combos that normally rack up like ****ing 30-40%. If you try to force it, you'll play like other Samus mains who are exchanging damage, and it looks like the match is even to the untrained eye. But to the trained eye, it's as bad as being on the same percentage against a Snake. They will kill you way before you kill them. And if you lose the stock advantage with Samus, it's such a steep hill to climb in order to win the match.

If you don't like playing a defensive character like Samus, drop her. If you're the type to run in aggressively, then Samus is not the competitive character for you. If you are the patient type, willing to wait out, then punish and crush your opponent for their incompetence, then Samus certainly is comparable to what you want. What I certainly hate is when people tend to compare Samus to Marth. Clearly they lack understanding. Samus spacing is different from Marth spacing... she's retreating while Marth pressures all day.

Now then, jab cancel options if you do find yourself in that situation (**** happens):

Jab 1-> Jab 2: Beats spot dodges. Is actually decent, the second hit doing 7%, just as much as f-tilt... and comes out faster than jab canceling into an f-tilt. You can vary timing as well. Lacks shield stun.

Jab 1-> D-tilt: Fast, high damage. To be used on occasion, both because it's easily punishable and it stales one of your best kill moves.

Jab 1-> F-tilt: Decent damage, does just as much as a jab combo. To be avoided, since jab combo does the same damage but comes out faster. Good roll punisher though, (cancel jab, f-tilt opposite direction.)

Jab 1-> Grab/Pivot grab: Stupid. Shouldn't ever work. Ever. 17 frames for the grab to come out usually means they can DROP their shield and grab you, not even shield grab, and beat you to it. Not to mention it's not hard to spot dodge it on reaction. Don't do it. It's not worth it. (IDC if you pull it off sometimes, honestly, if anyone on these boards supports this combo, the Samus boards are truly a waste of time.)

Jab 1-> U-tilt: If you're jabbing them in the air, this is a great follow-up.

Jab 1-> F-smash: It's alright, but not a definitive kill set-up. You have to mind game it. Luckily, if you do manage to land it, it's usually a kill by 125% on a majority of the cast, assuming you haven't staled it. (Tilt up, you're close range so it won't miss.)

Jab 1-> D-smash: Good shield stun and knockback. Won't poke though. Great at punishing rolls and spot dodges (charge it.)

AND FINALLY:

Jab 1-> Jab 1: Underrated and overrated. Overrated by people like Jasona (if you've ever seen his videos) and underrated by the majority of the Samus boards. If you hit their shield with jab 1, all of the above options will fail. Either retreat or jab cancel into another jab and test their patience. They will wait for you to commit (a.k.a. use one of the above options) before attacking nine times out of ten. If you repeatedly jab 1, their shield gets low and they will be forced to spot dodge/roll/attack/grab. Two of those options you ****, the other two are MU dependent.

This is also probably her second best kill set-up. The first being homing missile canceling.

Otherwise, you're left to punishing to kill (which is hard to do... since everyone plays more cautiously at high percentages...) or to situational kill set-ups (u-air cancel, close-range z-air, weak-spotted n-air, etc.) that are avoidable. (If you're a floaty character, you can normally pull out an aerial or jump before the kill move comes out. If you're a heavy character, you can TDI down and buffer a shield.)

Good luck killing. If you manage to be the player who revolutionizes Samus by finding a kill set-up for her, kudos.

 

[Xyro77]

another reason why i hate brawl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8

 

[LanceStern]

another reason why i hate brawl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8

There are a lot of things AGAINST Samus that makes it a mountain.
Just think if we had just ONE fast, (maybe disjointed) KOing aerial and disjointed ground smash we could be so much higher on tiers.

Diddy, MK, Falco, Snake, Wario, ... actually just about everyone except Captain Falcon I think has an explosive aerial

 

[1Zero99Lucia5]

what is this plasma shot i see mostly here ?

 

[Mr9]

hey guys i was wondering it there was a samus team thread

ya know who she teams up well with and what at what levels

i know she's a lone bounty hunter and all but everybody need a little help from time to time

am i right?

 

[Cherry64]

there isn't one here, there should be but there isn't
best bet is Ike, he is just a great partner for us. TL also isn't that bad I find, smash missile cancel will fly over his head even if you do it perfectly, so Smash missile > Usmash is a good tactic for kill moves unless opponent has reflector.


Plasma shot is Charge Shot, just people making up names for stuff.

 

[Mr9]

hmmm than i should make one.

thanks for the info cherr

 

[Cherry64]

Any time I like to help out.

jsut read lance's post bout the aerial, and I completely agree, think of TWO diff aerials with great hitbox and great knockback. We'd take names, she'd be like BA tier. not B oor A

 

[Xyro77]

Mr 9. there is a samus team thread. i made one a while back. search for it.

 

[Crystanium]

what is this plasma shot i see mostly here ?

It's just the incorrect name for the Charge Shot. It's nothing special. Har har. Get it? Nothing special, and it's a special attack?

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Question: I play with tap jump off, which makes it a bit harder for me to upB Oos. I usually sidestep > upB. Should I play w/tap jump off, or can I just keep using sidestep > upB? I just want some opinions. Preemptive answer to NO-Idea - as of now, this is working against opponents, so I plan on using it. It's just that one other player said my sidestep > upB is becoming predictable (even though it still works against him). Also, crap vids coming soon. I'm horrible - self proclaimed worst Samus player.

 

[Xyro77]

when u turn tapjump off u lose the invincibility frames on your UP+B. thats bad.

 

[NO-IDea]

You can retain your invincibility frames by pressing jump (X/Y) plus the usual up+b input with tap jump off. It's just rather bothersome to do it that way.

 

[Xyro77]

its faster from shield.

 

[NO-IDea]

It's just as fast if you input it correctly. You're telling the wii the same input commands as you would if tap jump were on.

 

[Xyro77]

.........wtf you have NO-IDea

 

[NO-IDea]

Again with the puns...

 

[IsmaR]

Hahahahahahahaha. That's how many times I laughed.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

thanks for the input. I think for now, I'll stick with tap jump off. I'll try playing with tap jump on after the tourney. I'll just have to learn to uair without using my second jump.

 

[NO-IDea]

Use the c-stick for aerials. Greater control in general. For example, you can fast fall while pressing left/right/up on c-stick for those aerials. Or you can DI right/left while using b-air/f-air, use u-air without double jumping, etc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Secondly, I don't understand what you're doing that up close with Samus. She can't kill. To make an example, she's not Peach where she can't kill until high percentages. Because Peach has a plethora of easy to land kill moves. No, Samus just can't kill period.

Samus only can't kill period if you keep constantly staling D-tilt and never anti-air or otherwise mindgame with U-tilt/F-smash at high percents. I dunno though, almost every Samus I've seen seems to fall into that pattern for some reason. *shrug*

Her Charge Shot is also a good kill move...minus the fact that it's stupidly weak. It's so stupidly easy to get away with especially if you predict an air dodge or something.

And then her edgeguarding is really good. I mean seriously good. Like it just comes with having an S tier recovery basically, not to mention a really high priority spike that's pretty safe and a B-air that kills. Oh and Charge Shot of course.

Sure your opponent will often survive until 160-180 (maybe higher...), but actually landing a move that can potentially KO isn't THAT hard with Samus. =/

I'm thoroughly convinced that this character is good, just massively underrated. I say this with confidence after repeatedly playing TonyGuacamole's Samus and seeing what this character can do when played effectively. Especially after n00b placed first in some tournament with Samus, I really can't see how this character is just low tier.

 

[NO-IDea]

n00b placed first because the MK didn't know the MU and was good, but not great and was a prick (if you watch the videos, he taunts or does stupid stuff instead of taking the kill when it's available.)

F-smash is extremely hard to land in high levels of play.

D-tilt is good but is easily shield punishable, meaning a person playing conservatively can rely on shield to keep them alive against Samus (especially since our grab game is subpar.)

Her Charge Shot doesn't kill for **** until high percentages with proper DI.

Her u-tilt kills as long as they're not dumb enough (jump recover from ledge) to fall for it.

I agree, she's underrated. But even without staling, it's hard to kill.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-tilt is good but is easily shield punishable, meaning a person playing conservatively can rely on shield to keep them alive against Samus (especially since our grab game is subpar.)

An opponent can't just shieldcamp against Samus unless they are extremely good at powershielding (and honestly, it's very hard to consistently powershield her Z-air on reaction). Her actual shield pressure game is really good, with lots of stuff that is stupidly safe on block. Her F-air is a pretty safe move that combos into her D-tilt, so D-tilt's relative lagginess matters a bit less. It also has pretty good range and shield pushback as I recall, so it's not THAT unsafe.

Her Charge Shot doesn't kill for **** until high percentages with proper DI.

If you edgeguard with it, it's fine, and all you need to do is force/bait an airdodge for that to land.

Her u-tilt kills as long as they're not dumb enough (jump recover from ledge) to fall for it.

I dunno about you, I think this move is deceptively easy to land due to how much Samus can force her opponent in a tough position. It has very massive reach, comparable to something like Snake's U-tilt, and it's not horribly laggy. I've told my friend TonyGuacamole to use this move to kill in various situations, and he's been doing better ever since I pointed out opportunities where he could kill with it.

 

[IsmaR]

I think A2 earned my respect faster than anybody else on this board. gj

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fools at the SBR don't know what they're doing allowing this character in low tiers. I appreciate Smash G0D understanding Mario's potential. In return, I will state that I am not deceived by Samus's current position on the tier list.

Similarly to how I perceive Mario, I don't think this character has any disadvantageous matchups in low tiers (and this is while assuming Sonic, Ike, Bowser, Zelda, and the Pokemon Trainer are allowed in low tiers). I could be wrong, and in that case I'll stand corrected. At worst, I'd see her going 50/50 against Sonic and Mario, and having some difficulty specifically with Squirtle of the Pokemon Trainer, otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if most of her low tier matchups were at least 6/4 in her favor. Nobody else in low tiers can camp and zone like this character can, and she survives the longest out of all current low tiers overall.

**** people who say Ike is too good in low tier singles. Samus should beat him like 65/35 or 7/3 lmao (camp him like a *****, and shieldgrab/Up-B EVERYTHING he does to approach). And Ganon vs Samus is like an 80/20 matchup in Samus's favor. She's soooooo ridiculous.

 

[Xyro77]

Fools at the SBR don't know what they're doing allowing this character in low tiers. I will state that I am not deceived by Samus's current position on the tier list.

As an SBR member and as the best samus from here to Uganda, i can tell you Samus is deserving of low tier(though she is not as low as the lier list makes her out to be).

At worst, I'd see her going 50/50 against Sonic and Mario, and having some difficulty specifically with Squirtle of the Pokemon Trainer,

A good sonic will pretty much never be hit with missles or zair because the moment you go in the air he is already running at you. If he stays justout ide you UP+B range you ****ed. Samus jab and f tilt are super easy to shield and/or power shield. Then u gotta deal with his fair every time your airdodge or if hes coming from ledge. Fsmash/bair/dsmash/u air all kill. Sonic is 60-40 in his favor. I fight and/or see Espy and Mr. 3000 on a regular basis and they are the best sonic in my entire region(espy may be top 3 in the usa).

My views of mario have changed ecently. He has the advantage but its like 55-45 super small advantage. So i guess i could settle for 50-50.

Squirtle is just a down right NO. Squirtles fair and bair out prioritize ALL of samus air moves A moves(fair/bair/dair/uair/nair). He can kill shell shift into usmash(ko move) or grab(grab release that could also trip samus). Hes small so you must increase your accuracy with projectiles. If his stamina is low, he can take you from zero to 50% or more(4-5 utilts to 2-3 uairs, you cannot escape)

otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if most of her low tier matchups were at least 6/4 in her favor. Nobody else in low tiers can camp and zone like this character can, and she survives the longest out of all current low tiers overall.

ness and lucas are MUCH better than her.

**** people who say Ike is too good in low tier singles. Samus should beat him like 65/35 or 7/3 lmao (camp him like a *****, and shieldgrab/Up-B EVERYTHING he does to approach). And Ganon vs Samus is like an 80/20 matchup in Samus's favor. She's soooooo ridiculous

your views on ganon vs samus and ike vs samus are spot on, no argument there. However, ike is by far the best char in low tier(ness may be better).








overall, i dont know who you play9cause obviously they aint too good) or what dream world u live in. Samus deserves low tier status and there is no secret potential locked up inside her.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ness and lucas are MUCH better than her.

Well honestly I guess I can't argue other things, but I have to strongly disagree with this statement.

Ness and Lucas are horrible bottom tier garbage. They lack any real reliable mixups, and have the worst range in the game in general. They have some KO moves with decent power, but only Ness's B-throw is really viable. Not that it matters a whole ton, but they get ***** on grab release too.

Like, they have equal or worse range compared to Mario, but lack the speed, mixups, and general frame advantages that Mario has on stuff. Any time they do an aerial, they have commitment to it, so outspacing them on observation is not hard due to their range being fail in general, and due to them lacking any decent camping or reliable pressure options.

your views on ganon vs samus and ike vs samus are spot on, no argument there. However, ike is by far the best char in low tier(ness may be better).

Ike loses to Mario, Samus, Link, and Sonic in low tiers, not to mention the Pokemon trainer. Squirtle destroys him completely in terms of zoning options and water gun can gimp him, and the other two don't have trouble dealing with him due to how easily he gets shieldgrabbed and ***** by projectiles (even bad ones like Razor Leaf and Firebreath). Ike only barely manages to have slight advantage against Ganondorf in high level play. Probably his best matchup in low tiers besides that is Yoshi, since Yoshi is just a failure defensively.

overall, i dont know who you play9cause obviously they aint too good) or what dream world u live in. Samus deserves low tier status and there is no secret potential locked up inside her.

Samus has reliable shield pressure, camping, some GREAT out of shield options, and even a few good KO setups. Not many characters can claim to have all those things. In terms of available options, I don't think she resembles a low tier in any shape or form. She's only held back by bad KO power, which imo is the most "workable" weakness in the game.

 

[Mr9]

i to think samus should be a higher tier...

fourth from the bottom just seems to low for her.

 

[Xyro77]

Well honestly I guess I can't argue other things, but I have to strongly disagree with this statement.

Ness and Lucas are horrible bottom tier garbage. They lack any real reliable mixups, and have the worst range in the game in general. They have some KO moves with decent power, but only Ness's B-throw is really viable. Not that it matters a whole ton, but they get ***** on grab release too.

Ness.

His oos options are 10x better than samus. his nair is 2 or 3 frames right? Thats like meta's uair and peachs nair. You literally cannot melee attack ness's shield or faced with getting punished. His bair and bat both KO. His fair to jab is like 99% safe. Oh and his fair his invisible hitboxes that even give it more range. Our spam is nice and slow so its easy to walk and power shield.

Then you get to the back throw, EVEN WITH good DI it will kill you from 110 to 125% it depends on the stage. Not only that but over all his grabs are the best in the game Standing grab(6 frames), Running Grab(8 frames), Pivot Grab(6 frames). This means back throw is even easier to pull out.

Samus cannont grab release ness or lucas. IF you can, its a zair and nothing more. the only thing we have on him is gimping but that is the same for all characters vs ness so in reality its nothing special.

Ike loses to Mario, Samus, Link, and Sonic in low tiers, not to mention the Pokemon trainer. Squirtle destroys him completely in terms of zoning options and water gun can gimp him, and the other two don't have trouble dealing with him due to how easily he gets shieldgrabbed and ***** by projectiles (even bad ones like Razor Leaf and Firebreath). Ike only barely manages to have slight advantage against Ganondorf in high level play. Probably his best matchup in low tiers besides that is Yoshi, since Yoshi is just a failure defensively.

yea i agree sonic(but i dont count sonic as low tier)/samus/squirtle and maybe mario beats ike.

Link/ganon/jiggs/yoshi/bowser/zelda/ivysaur/charizard/falcon/lucas and maybe ness.

Samus has reliable shield pressure, camping, some GREAT out of shield options, and even a few good KO setups. Not many characters can claim to have all those things. In terms of available options, I don't think she resembles a low tier in any shape or form. She's only held back by bad KO power, which imo is the most "workable" weakness in the game.

this is the DREAM description of samus and it looks good on paper but never works out that way.

Brawl has an easy-as-hell power shield system and pretty much no hit/shield stun system. This eliminates our combos/camping. ANYBODY can walk and power shield out projectiles because they are so slow!!!!

She has ONE reliable OOS item......UP+B. The rest, you are takin a huge chance.

Having a lack of reliable KO moves hurts her BIG TIME. All of us have ben in that situation thinking....."man if samus could kill i would have taken that stock much earlier".....its a problem we face every **** day.









Mr9: i agree shes too low but to be out of low tier is ********.

 

[NO-IDea]

I had this huge post to respond with... but then deleted it all because this argument is a waste of my time.

The fact that you think Ness/Lucas suck discredits your opinion to me.

As for the Mario MU, still in Mario's favor, 55-45. **** anyone who thinks it's in Samus's favor. You have no idea.

@Xyro: Sonic is low tier. You just don't know how to play against one. =P

Also, up+b OoS isn't reliable either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

His oos options are 10x better than samus. his nair is 2 or 3 frames right? Thats like meta's uair and peachs nair. You literally cannot melee attack ness's shield or faced with getting punished. His bair and bat both KO. His fair to jab is like 99% safe. Oh and his fair his invisible hitboxes that even give it more range. Our spam is nice and slow so its easy to walk and power shield.

his N-air has crap range, so I really don't care much. You can Melee his shield if you're Mario or have options that have comparable frame advantages. Mario's frame advantages on his aerials are really good, and enough to stop all forms of jump out of shield.

And furthermore, his N-air is frame 5, meaning it comes out frame 10 factoring a 5 frame jump startup. That's honestly not that fast for such an option that has horrible range.

B-air is also pretty bad in terms of range, and while it isn't horribly slow, if you space him effectively, it shouldn't be hitting you out of shield.

His F-smash essentially doesn't exist. It's the worst F-smash in the entire game, and a complete garbage move in every way. It starts up slow, is laggy, doesn't even ACTUALLY outrange that much when you compare its range to other stuff, and it has one of the worst charge releases, comparable to something like the charge release on Lucario's F-smash, which is powershieldable on reaction. Ness should never be viably using this move in competitive play.

Yeah, it's easy to powershield Samus if all she does is missile spam, but I'd like to see another player actually powershield everything once you throw in random Z-airs, bomb traps, and sporadic charge shots into the equation. Z-air in particular starts up pretty fast, and as far as I can tell, you basically have to be predicting it to get a powershield.

Then you get to the back throw, EVEN WITH good DI it will kill you from 110 to 125% it depends on the stage. Not only that but over all his grabs are the best in the game Standing grab(6 frames), Running Grab(8 frames), Pivot Grab(6 frames). This means back throw is even easier to pull out.

Yeah, his B-throw is gay, but fortunately, it's his ONLY viable KO option. His range and speed sucks too much on everything else, and he doesn't have a whole ton of reliable mixup, so him actually getting you to 120% actually takes a lot of work for him since he can only "safely" get away with F-airs. And he always has to worry about being outspaced.

Samus cannont grab release ness or lucas. IF you can, its a zair and nothing more. the only thing we have on him is gimping but that is the same for all characters vs ness so in reality its nothing special.

D-tilt.

Brawl has an easy-as-hell power shield system and pretty much no hit/shield stun system. This eliminates our combos/camping. ANYBODY can walk and power shield out projectiles because they are so slow!!!!

You have Z-air, which is really really hard to deal with, and you fundamentally force the approach. That's all you really need.

She has ONE reliable OOS item......UP+B. The rest, you are takin a huge chance.

F-tilt out of shield is really good and has more range than Marth's, and judging that most spacers have around negative 20-25 frame advantages, this attack can be really good for punishing in general. DA out of shield is also really good, and very difficult to observe on reaction. D-smash out of shield could use more range, but has its uses, and D-tilt is very good out of shield. Jab out of shield is very reliable at high percents. Shieldgrabbing is situational, but still good against laggy attacks. Samus's N-air and F-air also are decent enough moves out of shield.

Having a lack of reliable KO moves hurts her BIG TIME. All of us have ben in that situation thinking....."man if samus could kill i would have taken that stock much earlier".....its a problem we face every **** day.

I know how you feel.

This character would definitely be a very very serious threat with good KO power.

Samus is interesting. She CAN kill once her opponent is at a KO percent. This is different from say...Sonic, who has no reliable setups and no respectable frame data in any shape or form on KO options.

 

[LanceStern]

A2ZOMG your tips sound well, but Ness does serious damage to samus, that all looks good on paper.

What I've found is some great anti-air tactics against him. Zair, utilt and ftilt tilted up.
And air release -> zair is legit. It sets us up to at least attempt a gimp

 

[IsmaR]

Agree with Xyro on Sonic/Mario, disagree about Squirtle and Ness, and about Lucas. I can only really add a few comments to what has already been said.

@ Ness being easily gimped - It's more than something special IMO. Samus' ledge game *****. Period. You so much as Z-air a Ness offstage, and that leaves him vulnerable to pretty much any aerial, projectiles or another Z-air to gimp. You can even just use Samus herself to block it(which isn't that hard since she's decently big). The case is similar for Mario, but he can stall with cape and doesn't have as bad a recovery, IMO.

@ Squirtle - I don't see why everyone has so much problem with him. As both a PT main and having played several others(on and offline), I can see how good they are. Squirtle should obviously not be taken head on, his F-air, B-air, U-air and grabs are all ridiculously good. What I don't get is people complaining about U-smash. U-smash is a horrible KO move. With shell shifting it's a better option, but still pretty crappy. Squirt's main advantages are being of very small size(easy to avoid both moves and projectiles), having a great air game(self explanatory), and D-tilt not being able to kill him as early as other small/lightweight characters due to the resistance to fire moves. As far as I see it, the best KO move for this becomes U-tilt and D-air(all of PT's Pokemon have meh recovery, even Charizard once he's used up all his jumps). Charge Shot's, B-air and F-smash are all hard to land, and D-tilt won't kill until 140% with bad DI, if it's fresh(good luck with that). D-smash is a better option.

@ Lucas being crap - lol. Lucas has good tilts, a **** smash, 4/5 good aerials(hell B-air isn't that bad either), and really good grabs(coupled in with pivot grabbing, which makes up for the lag, his grabs/throws rival Ness'), decent projectiles/specials, and so on. His recovery isn't as limited as Ness, as his PK2 goes farther/is easier to do, and he can zap jump back high over the stage. He's really underrated.

@ NOID - What the hell happened to you? Really, **** anyone who has different views than you? Stop being so high and mighty.

A2ZOMG your tips sound well, but Ness does serious damage to samus, that all looks good on paper.

What I've found is some great anti-air tactics against him. Zair, utilt and ftilt tilted up.
And air release -> zair is legit. It sets us up to at least attempt a gimp

Agreed. I'm also inclined to agree with some of A2's stuff, but a good Ness is much harder to take down than it'd seem.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Lucas being crap - lol. Lucas has good tilts, a **** smash, 4/5 good aerials(hell B-air isn't that bad either), and really good grabs(coupled in with pivot grabbing, which makes up for the lag, his grabs/throws rival Ness'), decent projectiles/specials, and so on. His recovery isn't as limited as Ness, as his PK2 goes farther/is easier to do, and he can zap jump back high over the stage. He's really underrated.

Lucas's tilts are alright, but nothing special. His D-tilt occasionally gets use in gimmicky combos, and his F-tilt is somewhat alright for poking. His aerials aren't horrible, but none of them are particularly good. His best aerials are F-air and N-air, and his F-air is outclassed every day of the week as a spacing tool by several characters, and his N-air has pretty crap priority (although I will give, it's good on shields).

His other aerials are meh at best. U-air doesn't kill early enough and has too much commitment. D-air has waaaaay too much commitment and is very predictable. B-air has too much startup.

His Smashes are all mediocre...his best Smash is D-smash since it's his safest one, and that one is barely viable at best. His Up-smash is a huge gimmick for shieldbreaks basically and against nubs who fail at edgecamping. His F-smash sucks, blockable on reaction, and REALLY laggy (comparable in terms of lag to like Ganon's F-smash), and rather short range.

He has a good recovery, but his grab sucks a lot (well yeah, Samus's grab sucks, but she actually can set hers up). He can't actually camp due to how telegraphed his stuff is. Generally speaking, this character doesn't have anything outstanding except a few gimmicky kill moves. And then he gets grab released, so that sucks more for him.

Yeah as I was saying, I'm rather convinced Samus is better than Ness and Lucas. She just outdoes them in terms of spacing and camping options, not to mention actually having setups that aren't insanely gimmicky.

Agreed. I'm also inclined to agree with some of A2's stuff, but a good Ness is much harder to take down than it'd seem.

I dunno about you, I might have thought that a long time ago when I got randomly mindgamed into PKT2s on wifi, until I realized that he only really has two decent attacks that can pose any real offensive threat, especially since this character really can't camp.

Oh right he might try to mindgame you into dumb stuff if he's good, but none of it actually is safe or works if you just simply have matchup knowledge. His only remotely safe tactics are spamming/spacing F-airs and getting grabs. He's very linear in this way.

I'm not saying he's necessarily easy to beat. It's just that when you play against him correctly, his options are very limited and counterable.

 

[n00b]

She has ONE reliable OOS item......UP+B.

not anymore...

 

[NO-IDea]

@ NOID - What the hell happened to you? Really, **** anyone who has different views than you? Stop being so high and mighty.[/i][/color]

Because I'm sick of making huge posts telling them they're wrong, only for someone to say it wasn't necessary or for someone to only agree 5 months later? Honestly, I've always made lengthy posts explaining my point and refuting the points of others to the conclusion that they're still wrong and don't acknowledge it, or perhaps some playstyle difference (personal opinion.) But I've ALWAYS argued with anyone with different views. Because in the end, there should only be one view, one metagame, one competitive playstyle for Samus.

Sorry... it was clear he has no experience playing with Samus at high levels, but rather he knows the theory behind it and his experience coming from helping his friend pick up Samus. I'd like to hear his opinions a couple months down the line, but right now his vision is skewed.

For example, U-tilt is a solid kill move, but it loses it's luster when you face someone who knows the MU and knows not to ledge drop-> jump or jump recover from ledge onto the stage. Then, it's all a matter of making sure you time it right to intercept an aerial WHICH alone already means that your'e assuming they're going to mess up spacing. In other words, he's talking of ways to force the landing of u-tilt which in my mind means I could see him giving away free damage in a live match.

Another example, his experience with Ness and Lucas is clearly limited. A Lucas (Pink Fresh) and a Ness (GIMR) just outplaced Ally at BR2 in low tier. The Lucas won first place over a Mario (Boss). Doesn't A2Z extensively use Mario? Would he not know what Lucas is capable of in that MU? I suggest he go watch some videos of that, I believe Chibo got them recorded. There was also the time we all argued over the Mario MU ratio, and half of you belittled Xyro over Mario's use of fireballs in the MU. If used correctly, it severely hinders Samus mid-range into doing anything. I didn't bother to stand up for Xyro because I figured it'd be pointless. And some of you thought it was in our favor, and then belittled my experience against Boss. I'm sorry if me taking him to game 3 last stock/last hit isn't good enough? But don't downplay my skill level and go on to say that if I took him that far, Xyro can beat him. I doubt Xyro has as much MU experience against Mario as I do, especially since I live near the best one.

While I agree Samus doesn't have any horrible MUs against the rest of the low tiers, it goes rather far to say the SBR is made of fools without truly knowing the capability of the rest of those characters. I'd be willing to bet money half the people here would lose their first match against a pro Ganondorf if they had no prior MU experience beforehand. Did you know Samus is one of the easier characters in the game to tech chase? Well face a Ganon and find out. If he's not flame choking to jabbing you (which is guaranteed) he's doing something worse, and using dash attack for the kill at 105%.

Overall, he sounds like a smart guy and knows enough about Mario I'm sure. But I'd rather wait and then listen to his opinions down the line. You can't play at a competitive level if you don't acknowledge Samus's limitations. All I've heard from him so far is more reasoning of how those limitations don't exist, not how we can avoid them.

KO options? Samus has no legitimate KO options other than d-tilt which is outright beaten through conservative play. We have gimping, but even gimping can only take us so far. I've already stated that I agreed she belongs higher up the list. I didn't feel the need to argue anymore.

There's little I've gained from the Samus boards in general tbh. Half of the "tried and true" tactics these boards teach are false. I've learned more from players who ****** around with Samus more than some of the guides here. I've gone out of my way to teach my own peers how to avoid Samus's cute tricks just so I can get a better picture of what the MU is like for Samus. Why play against a player who doesn't know how to fight you?

I've tried using the Map Station to make people think more counterpick related, but none of you have experience in those stages either. Did you know you should never take Olimar to Castle Siege because the second stage pillars don't block his spam? If you knew, did you bother thinking about that and mentioning it? I think not.

I've learned more about MUs ratios from better players that distinctly contradict what is discussed here (or even shown here for that matter. Half the videos in the Celestial Archives show highly skewed MUs against players who clearly don't know the Samus MU or are even playing their character wrong.) I will say that through wi-fi and the videos, I've picked up some new tricks here and there, but half of them didn't apply to real life gameplay. Not to mention the playstyles get wrecked at higher levels (for the Samus players who rush in, exchange damage, and then lose the stock advantage and struggle to catch-up while the opponents further increase their lead with percent.)

I could argue against everything, but in the end you all have your own opinions and I'm left to follow the advice, not of my Samus peers, but of the people out there who not hold opinions, but the actual truth of what Samus's capabilities are.

It's not what's happened to me, it's what the Samus boards are lacking in general: solid progression and improvement. It's like the only way we're going to see this would be if we all stopped looking at Samus and what she can do but pick up other characters and see what their tricks are. I rarely see Samus mains taking advantage of her floaty aspect. We can avoid a lot of combos out there, which means less damage, which means longer living, which means more camping and safe poking with z-air.

It's either I'm brutally honest, or I'm too lazy to waste my time arguing. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I never have from the beginning.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sorry... it was clear he has no experience playing with Samus at high levels, but rather he knows the theory behind it and his experience coming from helping his friend pick up Samus. I'd like to hear his opinions a couple months down the line, but right now his vision is skewed.

Funny, because for the longest time ever since Brawl's release, I've been under the impression this character was bottom tier garbage for all the classic reasons like having no KO power, awkward priority, etc, etc. Except now that I actually know what it means to have options in this game, that's why I'm convinced Samus is much better than people give her credit for.

And also, my friend is very good with Samus. I've watched him do well against DSF to know this, and generally speaking, most of my matches against him come down to the last stock and last hit, although I think he's slightly more consistent than me in terms of win ratios.

For example, U-tilt is a solid kill move, but it loses it's luster when you face someone who knows the MU and knows not to ledge drop-> jump or jump recover from ledge onto the stage. Then, it's all a matter of making sure you time it right to intercept an aerial WHICH alone already means that your'e assuming they're going to mess up spacing. In other words, he's talking of ways to force the landing of u-tilt which in my mind means I could see him giving away free damage in a live match.

Alright, I guess I kinda was stretching that. Still, considering the range, there are quite a few things you can get this attack to challenge. It's not a particularly hard move to land, and it's not horribly unsafe either thanks to good IASA frames.

Another example, his experience with Ness and Lucas is clearly limited. A Lucas (Pink Fresh) and a Ness (GIMR) just outplaced Ally at BR2 in low tier. The Lucas won first place over a Mario (Boss).

Ally mains CF in low tiers, who is by far bottom tier material, and Boss specifically mentioned he lacked matchup experience.

While I agree Samus doesn't have any horrible MUs against the rest of the low tiers, it goes rather far to say the SBR is made of fools without truly knowing the capability of the rest of those characters. I'd be willing to bet money half the people here would lose their first match against a pro Ganondorf if they had no prior MU experience beforehand. Did you know Samus is one of the easier characters in the game to tech chase? Well face a Ganon and find out. If he's not flame choking to jabbing you (which is guaranteed) he's doing something worse, and using dash attack for the kill at 105%.

Yeah? So? My arguments are under the assumption of proper matchup experience.

Overall, he sounds like a smart guy and knows enough about Mario I'm sure. But I'd rather wait and then listen to his opinions down the line. You can't play at a competitive level if you don't acknowledge Samus's limitations. All I've heard from him so far is more reasoning of how those limitations don't exist, not how we can avoid them.

Samus's limitations are being an extremely floaty large target, and lacking KO power, and not having a viable approach. Also, her shieldgrab and roll are mediocre.

Samus being floaty and vulnerable from below can be solved with Bomb traps, and offstage maneuvers, not to mention creative use of her D-air, which is mostly safe once the hitbox is out. Low KO power is solved by knowing KO percents or getting edgeguards. Not having an approach is fine if you can force one through safe camping. While Samus does lack a good shieldgrab, her Up-B out of shield is extremely good, which essentially can work like a shieldgrab, except it doesn't get destroyed by crossovers. And good players almost never have to roll in general, regardless of which character you use.

She's not a powerful character. She just has the tools to handle herself viably in most situations. That makes her different from most low tiers, who actually lack tools to handle certain situations. I'd go so far to say that she can in several ways consistently play MUCH safer than several characters who are currently listed as mid tier.

KO options? Samus has no legitimate KO options other than d-tilt which is outright beaten through conservative play. We have gimping, but even gimping can only take us so far. I've already stated that I agreed she belongs higher up the list. I didn't feel the need to argue anymore.

I was about to argue except you covered that pretty correctly...but seriously, that charge shot has so many legitimate opportunities to land.

Also...it's really really hard to land a kill move on Samus most of the time. Generally speaking, she's able to poke you in some way when SHE is playing conservatively. You can do very little to her offstage most of the time without tricking her either.

 

[NO-IDea]

Pink played horribly as well, despite learning the MU in those five matches. He lost 3 stocks in those 5 matches from wave bouncing into Mario's u-air. lol

CF is underrated. When you stop using f-smash and half his specials, he actually is a decent character that can take on most of the low tier list. Yoshi, on the other hand, is garbage.

U-tilt having IASA frames doesn't change the fact that them properly timing/spacing an aerial beats it. You literally have to predict and hope for the best as you input the u-tilt command, because if it doesn't land, your'e going to get hit no matter how fast you buffer that jab/d-tilt/u-tilt w/e.

I do think the only thing we agree on at this point is that she belongs higher up on the tier list. If you're going even with your friend's Samus, I'll tell you right now I bet you can do better. If he's doing well against DSF, try teaching DSF the match-up and playing again. Even pros often have limited experience against the low tiers. Acknowledge why you're doing well before spouting that you are. Because it does belittle your success when you find out down the line you're getting ***** by the same person you beat 2 weeks ago.

 

[tha_carter]

I dont get what the big deal is about where she is on the tier list. Prove she's better; go out there and beat the top players, and come up with concrete facts about her positives and negatives. I had a couple sbr members talk to me (in person/via swf) telling me that my thread about taking samus to the next level and my performance against top level players (videos & in tourney) really opened there eyes to possibilities. The people who make the tier list actually ENCOURAGE people to prove them wrong; and many dont.


And samus does lack flat out killing power ONSTAGE. Thats why any good samus plays aggressively OFFSTAGE. And not just throwing out spikes...actually understanding how to limit options offstage and capitalize. I cant think of how many times i force an mk into thinking Side B was their best recovery option.... only to get out prioritized by my charged shot!

 

[A2ZOMG]

But, who does CF win against? =P

Tony's Samus beats me like 55/45....but I dunno, I've really REALLY tried powershielding. I can powershield her actual projectiles consistently, but there is little I can do safely against Bombs and Z-air. Her Z-air...is honestly very difficult to powershield on reaction. I consider myself a player who tries to play a lot based on observation, and I really think it's very hard to deal with Samus's Z-air when she's using it unpredictably. Bombs, while not by themselves a huge threat, are REALLY good at interrupting what I want to do. Approaching past her F-air is pretty hard once it's already out, and I'm certain that it combos into her D-tilt.

Right, everyone keeps telling me that I should powershield Samus, but honestly, I am not having any luck doing this once it comes to dealing with anything not named Missiles or Charge Shot. And her closeup game is honestly not terrible. Her options are pretty fast, and are good at putting you away from her, and there isn't much you can do to stop her from recovering safely either without betting on a mistake.

If you can tell me how to beat my friend really consistently, I might consider otherwise. I really highly doubt it is merely because he's outplaying me.