Shielding or dodging? What is usually the best option for most of the cast?

[Brinzy]

Hey guys,

For starters, the thread that all of this is being put into is here.

I realized that there are some characters' moves that are just better to spotdodge or roll past for the most part, while others are dealt with better just by shielding, and there are also some that should just be flat out avoided. I'm looking for arguments on what is better to shield, what is better to dodge, and what you should just not be in the way of.

I know that it depends on the situation and I know everyone has a general mix of punishment by shielding and dodging, but there are characters who lean one way and characters who lean another way. I really want to see some good posts on the best defensive way to deal with other characters so I can try to put together a list using your quotes, any information that I research myself, and other sources of knowledge that are provided. It can be on a character in general or specific moves.


I should also consider doing something like air vs. air and dodging them or just attacking them anyway, but for now, I just want to know about shielding vs. dodging. Besides, it varies far more by who you're using and who your opponent is, while what I'm looking for is a lot more universal.

So... just pick any move you want to talk about and ask a question or give advice.

EDIT: ALSO... just to clarify, by "dodge" I mean something that involves invincibility frames for the most part or rolling. By "avoid", I mean just moving your character away from said attack.

 

[Snail]

Olimar is generally better off shielding because of his amazing grab range. Basically you can shieldgrab most attacks, including G&W's turtle or Ike's fair, even if they're perfectly spaced.

And Yoshi prefers dodging because his shield fails. O:

 

[BentoBox]

There is no best option for a character, there's only a best option against a specific move.

So basically you want to make a list of every single move in the game and determine which one is dodgeable or not? (which also depends on the amount of inv. frames one gets from dodging, varying from a char to another, because lingering hitboxes > joo)?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

A Yoshi who can't dodge should cut off their legs.

 

[Brinzy]

Olimar is generally better off shielding because of his amazing grab range. Basically you can shieldgrab most attacks, including G&W's turtle or Ike's fair, even if they're perfectly spaced.

And Yoshi prefers dodging because his shield fails. O:

I was originally looking for something like "shielding > dodging G&W's bair for the most part, but it's best to just get out of the way", but I like the way you put it... so I could do something like:

"G&W's bair is never a good idea to try and dodge unless you only have to deal with the very, very end of the move. Olimar can shieldgrab this move due to his long range and good shield which helps to prevent shield-stabbing."

Of course, a statement like that would have to be refined and whatnot, but I could definitely do something like the above. That way, people will know that Olimar shielding it is a decent option, instead of someone like... I dunno, Ganondorf attempting to shield it when he probably could linger on the outside of the move and punish in a different way. So I should probably add an "avoid" option, too.

There is no best option for a character, there's only a best option against a specific move.

So basically you want to make a list of every single move in the game and determine which one is dodgeable or not? (which also depends on the amount of inv. frames one gets from dodging, varying from a char to another, because lingering hitboxes > joo)?

There are moves that linger yet can still be dodged, and dodging is still a viable option. Some lingering moves are best shielded.

Moves, characters, whatever. I don't care. Just name stuff and name what's the best thing to do.

 

[Brinzy]

A Yoshi who can't dodge should cut off their legs.

I could also make a "For Yoshi" and an "Against Yoshi" list. I assume that it's usually better for Yoshi to dodge than it is to shield. The "Against Yoshi" would be how to deal with his moves.

This will probably be a very, very long "guide", but it could help with specific ways to counter specific moves, from character to character. I might make this the "discussion" thread and later on make the thread with the actual guide.

I think I'll start working on it right now with Zelda.

 

[Praxis]

Anyone who spotdodges against Peach gets ***** by Dair.

 

[zacharia zako]

Olimar is generally better off shielding because of his amazing grab range. Basically you can shieldgrab most attacks, including G&W's turtle or Ike's fair, even if they're perfectly spaced.

And Yoshi prefers dodging because his shield fails. O:

yoshi's shield isnt THAT bad, but yes he should dodge.

for most people, its an either or situation. One perosn i know of who should always shield is ROB becuae of his famous shield to down smash move that works so effectivly. You might want to consider rolling too some people are better at that than shielding or dodging, preferably fast people. if a character is heavy like Ike or just has a bad roll like yoshi dont roll

I myself use shiieding waaaayyy more than i do dodging. however doging comes in handy in a few situations such as when you want to dodge a one hit attack such as an A-forward attack or someone who has a multiple hit A-combo like Gannondorf. In these cases dodging can have less lag and makes u have more time to counter attack

 

[Brinzy]

Anyone who spotdodges against Peach gets ***** by Dair.

Perfect. This means that for Peach's dair, I'll put down that Shielding > dodging.

 

[Brinzy]

Olimar is generally better off shielding because of his amazing grab range. Basically you can shieldgrab most attacks, including G&W's turtle or Ike's fair, even if they're perfectly spaced.

If this is common knowledge for Olimar, I'll go on and add it.


Zelda:

Usmash

-this goes above Zelda and it has several hitboxes. It can be dodged, but dodging it is very risky unless you can read the hand movement perfectly in the heat of battle and if you can time your spotdodge properly. Otherwise, you're better off shielding this attack.

<insert some quotes>

Shielding > Dodging

 

[Brinzy]

Alright, I'm currently editing in some of the responses that are in this thread. Please add more.

 

[Steeler]

shield rock smash if you have a close to a perfectly healthy shield, or attack through it and hit charizard if you have disjointed priority that outranges the rock. otherwise just get the **** out of the way. :D

 

[Brinzy]

Alright, I'll add that.

 

[sniperworm]

You should dodge Marth's Shieldbreaker...

Anyway, onto more serious ones,

Sheik F-smash: You should always block this. Very little shield stun and pushback, easy enough to screw up the timing on dodges, and easier to punish OOS instead of dodging behind Sheik (since Sheik will be moving toward you instead of away from you).

Sheik Chain: You should dodge away from this. It'll eat your shield like crazy and destroys spot dodges and rolling behind Sheik.

Sheik Needles: You should probably block fully charged ones since it's difficult to avoid the entire thing and it doesn't really matter if it's single needles (it's easy enough to avoid and harmless enough if you screw up).

Sheik Vanish: You should block this. Rolling makes it difficult to punish Sheik and spot dodging can get you hit (it has a very slight residual hitbox). This move is so slow that it shouldn't really be a problem though.

These are all from my personal experience against Sheik and how people have successfully countered my Sheik.

 

[Brinzy]

You should dodge Marth's Shieldbreaker...

Haha, I didn't even think of that.

Sheik F-smash: You should always block this. Very little shield stun and pushback, easy enough to screw up the timing on dodges, and easier to punish OOS instead of dodging behind Sheik (since Sheik will be moving toward you instead of away from you).

Sheik Chain: You should dodge away from this. It'll eat your shield like crazy and destroys spot dodges and rolling behind Sheik.

Sheik Needles: You should probably block fully charged ones since it's difficult to avoid the entire thing and it doesn't really matter if it's single needles (it's easy enough to avoid and harmless enough if you screw up).

Sheik Vanish: You should block this. Rolling makes it difficult to punish Sheik and spot dodging can get you hit (it has a very slight residual hitbox). This move is so slow that it shouldn't really be a problem though.

All of this is great. I'll add it immediately.

 

[bludhoundz]

Shield Marth's Dancing Blade.

Shield MK's Ftilt.

If you try to spotdodge or rolldodge, you'll be hit.

 

[Brinzy]

Shield Marth's Dancing Blade.

Shield MK's Ftilt.

If you try to spotdodge or rolldodge, you'll be hit.

Alright, I'll get on those, too.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Dont ever try to roll behind ivysaur during bullet seed, better shield,roll away or spotdodge
Shield squirtles aerials, dair and nair linger and the others are zero laggy, so spotdodging may make you lose the chance to punish
Ivys forward and back aerial are kinda telegraphed, so it may be better to spotdodge, you are not gona shieldgrab those anyway, shield uair and dair, and roll for nair

 

[gunterrsmash01]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201264

edit: rofl i just noticed your the same person who made that thread. my bad.

 

[Crizthakidd]

smash DI out of diddy kongs fsmash haha it makes them facking loose their brains . or just shield into grab.

vs olimars as much as i want to shield his pikmin grab my *** from half FD lol

 

[Brinzy]

Alright, I'm back and I'm editing in Diddy, Squirtle, Ivy, and MK stuff.

 

[Veggi]

Can I ask for a suggestion on how to avoid all of Lucas' smashes? He's the character I'm worst against and it seems that I can't react to his f-smash and d-smash accordingly because his f-smash comes out way too fast for as much power as it has and I can't get around having a Lucas down-smash me because it eats through my shield at low percents and I can't spot-dodge it. I also need help with his upwards Falcon Punch because it just has too much range and a lingering hit-box to prevent me from air-dodging it.

 

[1170]

I like not being there in the first place, but that may just be me... Perfectshielding is also nice. As in, the sun is out and it is recess type of nice.

Seriously, its pretty situational. Everything is. Learning which situations call for what is a part of 'being good'.

 

[Brinzy]

Hopefully a Lucas main will come in and talk about it more in-depth than I could.

From my personal experience... Lucas's Fsmash is best dealt with by dodging it (so you can have time to punish), but a shield is enough to keep you safe. I always just try to get out of the way of his Dsmash, because it's very problematic. If I get caught where the move is, I shield it and just hope that it doesn't go through my shield. Usmash... I normally try to airdodge where the move normally comes out and I try to land away from him, because he lags long enough for me to run in and punish.

I like not being there in the first place, but that may just be me... Perfectshielding is also nice. As in, the sun is out and it is recess type of nice.

Seriously, its pretty situational. Everything is. Learning which situations call for what is a part of 'being good'.

Have you been paying attention to this thread or the other one, at all?

 

[Tenki]

Perfect. This means that for Peach's dair, I'll put down that Shielding > dodging.

What about Avoiding?
avoiding > shielding > dodging in that case, I'd think.

smash DI out of diddy kongs fsmash haha it makes them facking loose their brains . or just shield into grab.

Which direction do you SDI? I don't wanna attempt a SDI and end up still being in the way D:

Also, just in case noone saw it in the other thread...
These are questions:

MK F-air/B-air: can you/should you SDI out of it, and which direction?
MK D-air/U-air: What's the best answer to a SH D-air/U-air, DI-wise (I'm guessing up?) and defensively - spotdodge, shield, roll? etc.
MK D-tilt: frame trap (?). SDI up, away? roll backwards? double jump???
MK F-tilt: Shield, roll back, SDI?

 

[Brinzy]

What about Avoiding?
avoiding > shielding > dodging in that case, I'd think.

Makes sense to avoid it, but some characters have strong OoS punishers as well, like Zelda's Usmash. I guess I'll make that note in the thread.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sorry Raphael, I didn't even notice this thread until now. >_<

Can I ask for a suggestion on how to avoid all of Lucas' smashes? He's the character I'm worst against and it seems that I can't react to his f-smash and d-smash accordingly because his f-smash comes out way too fast for as much power as it has and I can't get around having a Lucas down-smash me because it eats through my shield at low percents and I can't spot-dodge it. I also need help with his upwards Falcon Punch because it just has too much range and a lingering hit-box to prevent me from air-dodging it.

Raphael already put up my usmash stuff, but as for fsmash and dsmash...

Fsmash is better off being spotdodged, but you have to make sure that a) your reaction time is good and b) you can follow up with something really, really fast. I can only speak for myself, but if someone spotdodges my fsmash, I'm going to jab as soon as I can, and Lucas's jab comes out on frame 2. Shielding is of course an option and more reliable in general, but then you get pushed back a bit. However, under no circumstances should you try to interrupt it with a projectile -- the stick is also a reflector.

Dsmash should never be spotdodged since the attack lasts longer than the dodge will. The last hit is the weakest, so if you absolutely must get hit with it, then take the last hit. You've probably noticed that it only covers Lucas's front (only partially true, it can hit opponents touching his back, but the character models need to practically overlap), so if you can roll behind him before the hitboxes come out, you're golden. If you're being edgeguarded with this, do your best to sweetspot the edge and try to get out of range before your invincibility wears off. Tether recoveries in particular are excellent at staying out of range. As a final precaution, the later hits have slightly larger hitboxes, so if you're barely out of range of the first hit, the second or third burst can still tag you.

 

[Brinzy]

It's fine, Paranoid.

I'll take both of those and add it to the thread. Great contributions, everyone.

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

We desperately need some tips on how to combat Pit's Angel Ring (Forward + B, also known as the hayayah! move...) It reflects attacks, has a big hitbox, annoying priority and can trap you inside it if you dont DI out of it properly. Also, its an excellent edgeguard and a good way to force people off the ledge. Not only that, but it comes out quick and you cant spotdodge it. Any ideas how to combat this?

 

[holla at yo marth]

it depends on what attack you're being hit with or about to be hit with]
doing a "perfect shield" is the best thing to do but it isn't always the easiest thing to do
I would say if you're an advanced level player, go for the perfect shield
If you're a beginner level player, use the side dodge or spot dodge

 

[Brinzy]

I wish people would pay attention.




Sleepless, at this rate, I might have to start posting threads soon.

 

[Brinzy]

I apologize if anyone else has mentioned this, but what about Lucas's PK thunder? The fact that it goes thru the opponent, hitting them away, and can hit multiple times makes it an infuriating edge guarding technique. Suggestions?

MK F-air/B-air: can you/should you SDI out of it, and which direction?
MK D-air/U-air: What's the best answer to a SH D-air/U-air, DI-wise (I'm guessing up?) and defensively - spotdodge, shield, roll? etc.
MK D-tilt: frame trap (?). SDI up, away? roll backwards? double jump???
MK F-tilt: Shield, roll back, SDI?

We desperately need some tips on how to combat Pit's Angel Ring (Forward + B, also known as the hayayah! move...) It reflects attacks, has a big hitbox, annoying priority and can trap you inside it if you dont DI out of it properly. Also, its an excellent edgeguard and a good way to force people off the ledge. Not only that, but it comes out quick and you cant spotdodge it. Any ideas how to combat this?

Can anyone answer any of these questions?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'll take the PK Thunder one.

On the ground, PK Thunder is easy to shield since it is by no means a speedy projectile. The real danger comes from Lucas tricking you into thinking you're safe or that he's vulnerable and then hitting you with it anyway, or worse, hitting himself into you for anywhere from 3-42% damage depending on what parts of the attack hit you and how unlucky you are. If Lucas comes flying at you with PKT2, shield. You can't punish it since he'll go right through you anyway, but you'll be safe since it doesn't eat your shield like Ness's does. If you're feeling ballsy, you can try to hit Lucas out of it with something disjointed. Such tactics will work better after Lucas hits the halfway point, where the attack's priority drops.

If Lucas is using PK Thunder to edgeguard you, your best option is to be unpredictable with your movement and hope you trick him into sending it the wrong way. You can also try hitting PK Thunder with an aerial in an attempt to cancel the bolt, but make sure you're hitting the head and not the tail. Airdodging can work in a pinch, but you could just end up eating the bolt anyway when Lucas loops it around for another pass. On the bright side, it only stays out for about 3 seconds before it vanishes of its own accord.

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

it depends on what attack you're being hit with or about to be hit with]
doing a "perfect shield" is the best thing to do but it isn't always the easiest thing to do
I would say if you're an advanced level player, go for the perfect shield
If you're a beginner level player, use the side dodge or spot dodge

I'm not familiar with "perfect shield" What is that?

Also, i used to be a Snake mainer, so i will make a contribution to this thread :

Snake's grenades - The best snake players will use grenades to pressurise players and restrict their movement on the map. The best advice i can give to players is pick them up/catch them in midair and throw them back to snake. Use his grenade game against him. From when the pin is pulled out, grenades will explode in 5 seconds. If he's thrown them quite quickly, it gives you time to throw it back, and the best thing is that it will probably explode on impact when it flies back to him. The biggest mistake you can make is letting grenades pressurise you and make you afraid. You will move predictably and Snake players will use that to their full advantage.

Which brings me next to the point, Snake players can "cook" the grenade. They will pull the pin out and hold it in their hand for a while, then they will either throw it or drop it on the floor by rolling. Avoid picking up these grenades because they will probably explode in your hand. When Snake has a grenade in hand, he can only throw or drop the grenade. He cannot attack. if you are using a player that has projectiles, now is the best time to shoot. If not, then get close and hit him when he doesnt have a grenade in his hand. If you do hit him while the pin is pulled out, it'll explode you both (but maybe you'd want that :D)

 

[Brinzy]

You guys are great. Editing those in now.

Also, "perfect shielding" is the same as "power shielding", which is basically putting your shield up right before a move hits. You'll hear a clashing sound, and your shield shouldn't take any damage. It also leaves you with very low lag afterwards, so it's truly the most optimal way to counter moves in general, but the strict timing means that unless you're incredibly good with it, you can't always rely on it.

 

[Tamoo]

In answer to the pit angel ring one, i think it depends if the user is spamming it or not. If he is, bait him to use it and jump over and bair/dair. If they dont spam it, if ur quick enough, just roll, or shield then roll. If not possible, just take the couple of hits and di out i guess.

 

[Hype]

I know falco and toon link both have amazing spot dodges. with a 9:2 ratio of invinability to vulnerabilibty when they constantly buffer spot dodges.

 

[Tenki]

Also, i used to be a Snake mainer, so i will make a contribution to this thread :

Snake's grenades - The best snake players will use grenades to pressurise players and restrict their movement on the map. The best advice i can give to players is pick them up/catch them in midair and throw them back to snake. Use his grenade game against him. From when the pin is pulled out, grenades will explode in 5 seconds. If he's thrown them quite quickly, it gives you time to throw it back, and the best thing is that it will probably explode on impact when it flies back to him. The biggest mistake you can make is letting grenades pressurise you and make you afraid. You will move predictably and Snake players will use that to their full advantage.

Which brings me next to the point, Snake players can "cook" the grenade. They will pull the pin out and hold it in their hand for a while, then they will either throw it or drop it on the floor by rolling. Avoid picking up these grenades because they will probably explode in your hand. When Snake has a grenade in hand, he can only throw or drop the grenade. He cannot attack. if you are using a player that has projectiles, now is the best time to shoot. If not, then get close and hit him when he doesnt have a grenade in his hand. If you do hit him while the pin is pulled out, it'll explode you both (but maybe you'd want that :D)

Uh...

what about Snake's forced grenade drop?
and also, grenades explode in 3 seconds, unless PAL version is different.

the good Snake players I've seen usually do things like forced grenade drops or other movements to hit you out of whatever move you use to catch the grenade, so I usually just go for a grab Snake when he pulls out the grenade lol.

 

[Brinzy]

I think I'll write in some stuff about Pit's Angel Ring...

 

[M.J.B]

sheilding i say as for sheild grabbing