Sheik/Zelda Selection Guide

[popsofctown]

me and dangr tested this. If the space animal is spamming double jump, this should never work.. did your testing show something different?

 

[Zankoku]

I didn't really test, Ryoko said something of that effect to me and it seemed to work when I just tried it in friendlies.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

me and dangr tested this. If the space animal is spamming double jump, this should never work.. did your testing show something different?

I still think at least fox seems to get stuck... even if this is not the case.... if you catch 'em out of a double jump... what can they do?

 

[TheFast]

Is it just me or should Olimar be Zelda.
Reasons:
1) The after lag of his smashes leave room for good punishment
2) his aerials take up many frames so if you air-dodge well you should be able to get through it
3) Nauru's Love can hook pikmen back on him forcing him to take the damage or do a down-B which you can then punish.
4) Needles are stopped by pikmen and Din's fire can't be stopped
5) His light frame and bad recovery makes him die at low damages so no need to rack up damage
6) Up-smash beats Olimar,s down air. So try and stay under him when his coming down
7) Zelda's short rolls actually help to get inside of Olimar's smash attacks so roll after his smashes to a quick down smash works great in this match.
8)because of his range and strength its hard for sheik to stay close

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah... Olimar might not be so bad for zelda, but sheik can gimp him more easily is the thing.

 

[TheFast]

Din's fire is a great gimp against Olimar, or you know just grabbing the side after one of Zelda's power hits

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Din's fire is a great gimp against Olimar, or you know just grabbing the side after one of Zelda's power hits

yes, and Dsmash is great to force him to need to use pikmin chain... but shiek can just get there to gimp more easily... zelda has effective gimps, they are just harder to put in place.

 

[Bandit]

I've had problems approaching with Sheik against Olimar. She can gimp easier but Zelda seems to be able to deal with the pikmin easier. You can reflect them back at Olimar or make him deal with the dins.

 

[Squidster]

Short hop
Nair
Jab

repeat until olimar is dead... 4 times

 

[Excellence]

Short hop
Nair
Jab

repeat until olimar is dead... 4 times

Please try this on an Olimar who has a working controller.

 

[popsofctown]

Please try this on an Olimar who has a working controller.

Oh but i have, hundreds of times, successfully. The combo is seriously uninteruptable, this has been tested.
After Sheik's lagless landing and the shieldstun for nair (if it's shielded. Only rolling or pivotgrabbing successfully breaks this combo), the jab combo is uninterruptable. Olimar's grab doesn't have normal grab armor, and his grab's start up is slightly slower than say, Ness's grab. The jab will interrupt his grab everytime. Dropping shield and jabbing is outspeeded by Sheik's two frame jab. If you try the combo and do it right, you won't be stopped.

If the Olimar holds his sheild the whole time, he gets pushed back. When he's far enough, you can shorthop and then begin the cycle again.
I discovered this approach, others have reported similar results. Nair->grab also shows results.

This matchup has been extensively discussed.. a lot.. opinions lie on both sides. Anyway, try to spare me as much as you can of this topic, though it's unfair for me to ask for a gag rule on it.

Please don't report any strategy that you tried with Zelda in only a few matches, that is usually where the Nayru's Love suggestion originates. The whistle takes far less time than the after lag of Nayru's Love, if you don't create hitstun with Nayru's you get punished. Even Aeyr, who staunchly supported Zelda vs. Olimar as neutral, said Nayru's was rarely used in this fight.

I'll list contested again.

 

[Bandit]

I noticed Wario is still undecided, but I think the matchup points soundly towards Zelda. DAir and F-Smash is very spammable for him with the high priority of the aerial and the super armor frames of the F-Smash. I've found a very defensive Zelda gives Wario no real options for approach as he can't approach vertically with Zelda's USmash and his FSmash is easily shielded. Also, f-Smash is heavily punished when powershielded and d-tilt locked.

 

[popsofctown]

I agree with most of that... and Zelda can lightning kick him a lot in the air. And Zelda's grab release abuse is better than Sheik's.... if only for the psychological effect more than anything else. Third opinion?

 

[Bandit]

I thought I might add with Zelda you can sweet spot Bair immediately after his down throw. If he makes this mistake, it is a free 21%.

 

[Ominous]

Hello there...
i'm Ominous and i would like help...
my main use to be sheik befor in melee but know in browl for some reson all of my old combo's dont work but Zelda can use them

may i plz ask for help.. if you can could someone help me out with combo's coz i would like sheik to be my main ike befor...

 

[Ominous]

to ko people at 50 % use elechrich heel and make shore you sweet spot it kk

 

[Villi]

kk

kkkkkkkkkk

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay let's see what's up and what I kinda disagree with:

-Pikachu: Doesn't he have a pretty rough CG on sheik but not Zelda? I go stright zelda in this matchup or I have a much harder time. Zelda is good against him anyway.

- Ganondorf: Any is about right. but put an emphasis on sheik. A good sheik can come out of this almost unscathed.

- Marth: Iunno. I find marth easier to gimp than to beat normally. I've tried a variety of strategies here and the one that seems to work best is Zelda THEN sheik honestly, maybe SaZ would capture that best.

- Pit: I feel the same exact way about him as I do marth

- Lucas: I agree with sheik... but more for the gimping than for psi magnet.

- Charizard is too easy to beat around with Zelda

My experience against you raph:

Charizard:
-Zelda: omg what an advatage. Charlie is so easy to lightning kick it's not funny. and his glide makes him uair bait if you are in good position, and Din's bait if you aren't. You outrange and outprioritize pretty much his everything. Din's forces him to approach and he is lacking in his options for safe approaches. Seriously, this is a good matchup for zelda.
-Sheik: can combo charlie like crazy. Ftilt works wonders and, as long as you know which moves charlie can throw out quickly, he is VERY limited in stopping your approaches. He's got some grab range and a DANG powerful Dthrow, but combo into a usmash and he's toast... or just change to Zelda to KO.

Conclusion: there's absolutely no wrong way to play this. Zelda alone, sheik alone or both together... they all are advantaged.

Ivysaur:
-Zelda: ivy actually has the range advantage here. But, on the plus side, I've found an airborne ivy is not too hard to LK or Uair and he's quite light. Ivy's razor leaf and range make it hard to force him to approach. Zelda really shines if she can knock him off the edge though. Beleive it or not, I actually get to use her Dtilt spike here due to Ivy's very limited recovery options.... just don't get greedy and get edgehogged.
-Sheik: I prefer sheik here honestly. Needles do a lot to force ivy to approach, or at least to TRY to so that sheik can exploit him when he tries. Sheik might have more trouble escaping bullet seed and more trouble with the range difference in moves, but sheik is a much more reliable edgeguarder.... and ivy is an easy target for that.

Conclusion: Zelda is not bad, but sheik is better. If you are going to use both charcters here, I might recomend starting as zelda and going to sheik for the ko. Zelda will get ivy into a range to be knocked off, and Sheik will have fresh aerials to keep him off.

Squirtle:
-Zelda: oh dear god is squirtle frustrating. you might as well kiss most of your aerials good bye. Nair and lightning kicks just become near useless against him... Uair at least is great for an EARLY ko... and his recovery is VERY punishable by dair if you get him in a bad position. Other than that. You have power on him in spades. He'll get out of your multihits earlier than most due to size and weight, but he'll also die really early. Squirtle's the hardest of the three to face normaly, but he's not overly difficult, just a decent challenge.
-Sheik: as sheik, I normally have a lot of problems here. Squirtle seems to have no problem approaching me, and seems to be able to ward off any approach attempt I make. Squirtle has superior power and priority in the air as well as amazing air control... which sucks. Squirtle also has some amaing power in his throws (specially Dthrhow) and some great grab range which makes him threatening if he EVER sheilds an attack also he's nearly impossible to combo and I find it hard to connect with most kill moves for sheik... my best results here are to play an ultra-reactionary sheik. Iunno if other sheiks agree with me, but squirtle is hard.

Conclusion: *Groan*... not fun either way, but my personal experience says at least Zelda doesn't have too many problems with him. I don't think you can EVER have the advantage against squirtle, but at least zelda doen't seem to have a disadvatage.

PT on the whole:
I imagine most smart PTs will realize how both zelda and sheik can give them trouble. AS such, unless on a stage that gimps ivy or squirtle (Frigate Orpheon destroys Ivy no?) then you should expect not to see too much, if any of charizard. I'd say to expect two squirtles and one ivy. As such, I would recomend using Sheik for ivy even though Zelda can do okay against him.... that'll keep zelda fresh for Squirtle when he comes out. Don't ever underestimate PT... but know your strengths and I say this is Zelda sheik's matchup to lose. I personally love the matchup because it allows you to really use Zelda/Sheik's built in counterpicking abilities.
Artful switching probably yeilds no less than a 60:40 advantage in our favour... but good PTs are hard to come by. I have experience against so few.



other opinions?

- ZSS: Another one I'd call SaZ... it really doesn't matter how you use the two in tandem. ZSS is capable of being killed by gimps or by raw power pretty easily.

- Wario: Either StZ or Z. Zelda is too good against wario.

 

[-Mars-]

You should start out with Sheik vs. Marth. Why on earth would you start out as Zelda? You can't even get inside as Zelda to rack up enough damage, at least with Sheik's speed you have some options for getting inside his fair and dtilt walls. If your going to use Zelda, it should be StZ only. Even then, it's probably easier to just gimp with Sheik......Zelda doesn't do too well in this matchup.

 

[Villi]

I could really choose either character against Marth. Sheik can put the **** on Marth with tilt combos if he makes enough mistakes, but Marth can be difficult to get inside and defend against otherwise. Zelda works better for me when Marth is playing hot and cold just because she's better at taking advantage of situations when Marth is in the air and Zelda is on the ground.

I like to start off as Sheik and see if it works out. If I can get lots of tilts, nairs, fairs, and grabs in I'm happy. If I can send him off the stage at low trajectories, I'll stay Sheik and edge guard. If I don't feel like being stage spiked, I'll switch to Zelda after my ftilt -> upsmash window has passed.

 

[-Mars-]

He can DS out of the tilt lock. You have to employ what I call ftilt mindgames where you ftilt twice and then shield. Then you get either a free grab or you can start ftilting again. Very rarely will you be able to get the upsmash off because of DS.

Marth zones Zelda fairly easily. He can stay just out of fsmash and usmash range with properly spaced fairs, retreating fairs and dtilts. Sure Zelda has priority but against Marth her anti-air options are limited. It's the same as the Ike matchup but worse.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

winning the marth vs. zelda matchup normally comes down to: how well can I punish him OoS for me.

otherwise it's all about trying to zone better than he does.

 

[popsofctown]

I haven't played Sheik vs. Squirtle, but on paper it would be painful, because Sheik would be compelled to play defense and she doesn't like doing that. The PT recommendations have been geared much more Zelda heavy, as such, since Ivy and Charizard can go both ways.

Pikachu's matchup is relisted to reflect the chain grab.

Marth is going to say StZ, it still looks like a two sided discussion to me.


I don't know if I've announced this yet, but I've recently dropped Sheik. This doesn't signify a change in my strong opinion that Sheik/Zelda is a high-mid or high tier character, nor am i going to retract my opinion that a good Zelda is best paired as a good Sheik

That would make me a hypocrite, if it weren't for my reason for dropping Sheik: my region is chockfull of S/Z counters whose matchups aren't improved by Sheik. The characters that have knocked me out of tournament are Diddy, Game and Watch, Game and Watch, Game and Watch, DK, MK, and Snake. Gdub, DK, MK, and Snake, IMO, are the 4 biggest S/Z counters. If i didn't live somewhere totally saturated by these players, I would just take a third for one or two problems, but S/Z is impractical here.


I'm still upkeeping this thread. As my opinions become more and more outdated i'll count my own opinion less and less.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I haven't played Sheik vs. Squirtle, but on paper it would be painful, because Sheik would be compelled to play defense and she doesn't like doing that. The PT recommendations have been geared much more Zelda heavy, as such, since Ivy and Charizard can go both ways.

I just brawled steeler36 today.

his squirtle is supposedly rockin but sheik actually didn't have a hard time with it. needles forced approaches and sheik has a range advantage. it was all about who could keep better spacing. Zelda just destroyed squirtle. I mean, she had a much tougher time landing things, but she sent squirtle flying at ridiculously low damages.

oh and as for ivy, btw, he takes extra knockback from din's, vanish, farore's and zelda's uair.

 

[-Mars-]

I haven't played Sheik vs. Squirtle, but on paper it would be painful, because Sheik would be compelled to play defense and she doesn't like doing that. The PT recommendations have been geared much more Zelda heavy, as such, since Ivy and Charizard can go both ways.

Pikachu's matchup is relisted to reflect the chain grab.

Marth is going to say StZ, it still looks like a two sided discussion to me.


I don't know if I've announced this yet, but I've recently dropped Sheik. This doesn't signify a change in my strong opinion that Sheik/Zelda is a high-mid or high tier character, nor am i going to retract my opinion that a good Zelda is best paired as a good Sheik

That would make me a hypocrite, if it weren't for my reason for dropping Sheik: my region is chockfull of S/Z counters whose matchups aren't improved by Sheik. The characters that have knocked me out of tournament are Diddy, Game and Watch, Game and Watch, Game and Watch, DK, MK, and Snake. Gdub, DK, MK, and Snake, IMO, are the 4 biggest S/Z counters. If i didn't live somewhere totally saturated by these players, I would just take a third for one or two problems, but S/Z is impractical here.


I'm still upkeeping this thread. As my opinions become more and more outdated i'll count my own opinion less and less.

Sheik/Zelda actually does fairly well against these characters, it's not nuetral but they're not **** matchups either(maybe G&W).

Which character are you picking up?

 

[popsofctown]

G-dub and MK unarguably have a strong advantage over Sheik/Zelda, unless i missed something incredibly new. Sheik/Zelda does just fine against Diddy. Popular concept is that Sheik can take on Snake, but i diverge from that belief. Sheik feels like she's winning the whole match, but the difference in kill power and weight just overcomes Sheik. Snake can totally out turtle Zelda, and withstand all of Sheik's smashes. I believe the reason my opinion diverges from Ankoku's is because a lot of Snake's will drop a little bit when knocked off the stage, then use up B, which gets them bair gimped, but my rival has figured out to immediately double jump and recover from straight above, which makes gimping impossible.

DK is less complex. If he's not already listed as being a disadantage for Zelda/Sheik, i think he will be at some point. DK just kind of zones me. And really that one could be a 55/45 for DK and i would still need a change, the second best player in our region is a DK mainer, and i want to beat him, and i need every little bit i can get.


I dropped Sheik, now I'm playing Toon Link, Rob, and Zelda. I use Rob for most of the cast, Toon Link for G-dub and one or two other fellows, and I keep up my Zelda enough to use her **** matchups against Wario, Falco, Kirby (~=****), Luigi, Sonic, and Pit. And one or two other folks.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I **** DKs normally. so easy to combo and camp with sheik. so easy to destroy with zelda. they have range, but, I mean, it's your fault if you're getting zones that consistently.

 

[-Mars-]

DK is good but seriously Sheik can just needle and chain camp him all day. You camp with needles and whenever he decides to approach you counter with the chain.............what can he do?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

stand there waiting for sheik to DACUS into him and kill him?

 

[Villi]

I'm fairly sure he can fsmash you out of your chain. I'm certain he can down b you. I find that the chain is more useful against characters that can't potentially kill you for using it. Like, ohh, Mario is gonna hit me with a fire ball now. ... But yeah, needle camping > DK.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm fairly sure he can fsmash you out of your chain. I'm certain he can down b you. I find that the chain is more useful against characters that can't potentially kill you for using it. Like, ohh, Mario is gonna hit me with a fire ball now. ... But yeah, needle camping > DK.

Ahh your right. I completely forgot about his down b. Still if you pressure with needles and force him to an aerial approach(usually his bair), the chain can be effective vs. DK.

 

[popsofctown]

needles or not, he's not forced to take to the air. He can walking ftilt, or he can do the tech where he cancels a jump into an upB that goes across the stage almost as fast as Luigi's tornado.

Do you use the chain against air approaches for real? It's too slow to do that. You have to pull it out, then snap it upwards. Not really that fast... I only use the chain against horizontal approaches, that's where it shines. But the down B mentioned is why the chain doesn't help me much horizontal against dk, it's only 5% damage anyway too.

 

[choknater]

maybe not chain camping...

but yes, needle camping definitely ***** dk

the "gay" sheik style of rolling around and using needles DESTROYS dk

(it beats wario too )

 

[-Mars-]

needles or not, he's not forced to take to the air. He can walking ftilt, or he can do the tech where he cancels a jump into an upB that goes across the stage almost as fast as Luigi's tornado.

Do you use the chain against air approaches for real? It's too slow to do that. You have to pull it out, then snap it upwards. Not really that fast... I only use the chain against horizontal approaches, that's where it shines. But the down B mentioned is why the chain doesn't help me much horizontal against dk, it's only 5% damage anyway too.

Shothopping the chain is what I meant......but obviously I don't understand the DK matchup all that well.

 

[Villi]

The chain, short hop or not, doesn't come out quickly at all. I only think it's safe to use because it has so much range, so I can begin it from a good distance away to halt approaches and occasionally punish for a good chunk of damage. In some matchups, it's hard to be put in a bad position with the chain if you do it right -- either they won't have a good enough option to punish you before you retract it, won't be able to do much damage either way, or you've connected with the tip and you can safely pull it back.

Characters with high priority aerials and wide ground attacks like DK, it doesn't work so well against.

 

[popsofctown]

I'll concede Needle camping works well against DK. I think I might even concede the matchup as even, and be honest and say i need an advantage on the guy's DK. He plays a lot of other characters and that's just one of his strong points... i need to beat him. Toon Link and Rob do that better.

 

[fox219]

nice!!!!!!!

 

[Flamingo]

I'm fairly sure he can fsmash you out of your chain. I'm certain he can down b you. I find that the chain is more useful against characters that can't potentially kill you for using it. Like, ohh, Mario is gonna hit me with a fire ball now. ... But yeah, needle camping > DK.

Can he Neutral B us out of our chain? That is the question.

 

[Tristan_win]

The chain, short hop or not, doesn't come out quickly at all. I only think it's safe to use because it has so much range, so I can begin it from a good distance away to halt approaches and occasionally punish for a good chunk of damage. In some matchups, it's hard to be put in a bad position with the chain if you do it right -- either they won't have a good enough option to punish you before you retract it, won't be able to do much damage either way, or you've connected with the tip and you can safely pull it back.

Characters with high priority aerials and wide ground attacks like DK, it doesn't work so well against.

...Villi the chain transcends priority, high and low don't do anything to the chain as it just goes though it.

Anyways the chain does work very well on DK just as long as he's not grounded or has a charge up Donkey punch other then that he cannot get pass the chain at all.

If he is grounded your screwed as his down B ~I think that's when dk starts slapping the ground with his hands~ has more range then the chain so he can easily punish you.

edit: Charged up Donkey punch has super armor frames and beats the chain because of them.

 

[Villi]

I just assumed that disjointedness was a contingent of high priority, at least as far as aerials are concerned. If the chain out-ranges an aerial, the aerial has been outprioritized. Am I oversimplifying?

Ahm, also, depending on the angle and timing, it's possible to get around the chain with a fairly disjointed aerial. The chain can't be everywhere at once, and the maximum range of the chain requires you to pull it into you, otherwise you're stuck spinning it around if you want to maintain a constant hitbox that covers aerials.