Sheik/Zelda Selection Guide

[popsofctown]

Sheik community, i'm putting a copy of this thread here. This Sheik version will always be the same as the Zelda one, because the guide assumes equal skill with Zelda and Sheik. Please discuss current listings in the Sheik version, for solidarity.

Intro:

I am here to start a reference resource that is of great great practicality and importance.
All Zelda players who have decided to learn both Zelda and Sheik (which i personally believe should be every Zelda main) need to know how Zelda and Sheik will perform in each matchup.

Among the many special things about Zelda, only she, and to more or lesser extent PT, can counterpick in-game. Even in the worst of situations, and among the greatest pessimists regarding use of Transform, you can always switch to the more suitable character immediately after the loss of your first stock.

I am going to include correct choices for every character. I'm going to reflect the opinions of the community in this thread, not my own views. I separate myself from the final listings in this thread, they do not necessarily reflect my views.

I will start the list. Someone tell me please tell me exactly how to divide Pokemon Trainer... I'm not sure if i should lump him together as one.

Here are the rules:

1.) This thread will only deal with correct matchups at the highest levels of play.
Partly related to this, I am going to put up conclusions based more on aristocracy than democracy. Everyone has a say, but the players that are more likely to know what they are talking about will be preferred over the opinion of a lesser one. (dispute will be noted on that character, but I'm probably going to put something in one way or the other)

2.) If you are upset because three new posters disagree with two established members, and i've put the opinion of the fewer up (dispute noted), try to show hard evidence. If you think they are wrong, maybe show two players fight that match up out with very few mistakes. Or prove a certain approach can be stopped consistently.

3.) There are going to be four options. The fourth one will barely ever get used, but there will be four. A character can be one of these four:
Use Zelda
Use Sheik
Rack damage up with Sheik. Kill with Zelda. (this will be called StZ. Sheik then Zelda)
Use Zelda and Sheik, with little regard to your opponent's %. Transform for the purposes of refreshing moves, and changing play style to mess with the opponent. This will be abbreviated ZaS, Zelda and Sheik.

4.) "Easily lightning kicked because he's big" will be excluded from the notes. I think that's obvious, and therefore clutter. Predictable aerial patterns or other susceptibilities that aren't obvious are fair game, or any large characters atypical elusion of lightning kicks.
________________________________

Bowser: StZ, Zelda SaZ
Notes: StZ is the best matchup, according to Ankoku's thread. Zelda has a good matchup too though, so SaZ is a good option. You can make Bowser fight Zelda some, since Zelda can rack pretty well in the match up (as implied by Ankoku's 60/40)

Captain Falcon: Zelda (contested)
Notes: Zelda has a massively good punishment game. Nearly all of Captain Falcon's attacks can be punished easily, this is the core of his weakness.

Diddy Kong: Zelda (contested)
Notes: This is Ankoku's listing. My own experiences disagree, we'll discuss it later. For now it is Zelda. Ankoku's smarter than moi.

Donkey Kong: StZ
Notes: Zelda suffers greatly from DK's ability to outrange. Zelda can easily be punished by moves like Giant Punch, but grabby nimble Sheik, not so much.
It's a very tough matchup, DK needs MUCH fewer hits than you to win.

Zelda's kill power is going to help, since Sheik can't gimp here. Zelda's range issues (Fsmash<ftilt) (bair wall too effective) stop me from recommending SaZ

Falco: StZ, Sheik, Zelda, SaZ
Notes: Both Sheik and Zelda can fight the good fight against Falco. None of these choices is wrong, I was going to bold Sheik as well, but then i would have to unbold them all to keep from feeling stupid.

Sheik has a powerful ftilt lock on falco at Falco's lower %s, netting her lots of damage.
Falco has a chaingrab at low %s, netting him lots of damage.
This has complex impacts on the simple Sheik v Falco matchup. It can end up having a massive positive effect one way or the other, or none at all (varying by the players, that is).

Zelda has no such racking trick, but she escapes chaingrabs with simple good DI and thus takes away Falco's. People, including me, describe the Falco v. Zelda matchup as nonstressful. Falco is easily lightning kicked, but he also has lots of ways to hurt you.
Recently i've been noticing that i can DI out of his jab combo a certain way and lightning kick Falco before i even land from the jab combo, something for you guys to look into.

Dumb Din's has a small place in this matchup, Nayru's Love has almost none at all. Needles are always helpful, but less so here than most place.

A special kind of ZaS that can be applied to this matchup is to use Zelda, except in the rare case that Sheik/Zelda is at a high% and Falco is at a low one. In that case, use Sheik, because you get tilt locks but Falco doesn't get CGs.

Remember, I did list Sheik here. Sheik is a valid option, don't pick the wrong character for you because of a chain grab.

Fox: StZ Sheik
Notes: Sheik still has the uber tilt lock, but no CG to answer it. Since the ftilt lock doesn't actually offer any special way of killing, switching to Zelda for kills probably isn't a bad idea. Do keep in mind that Fox is gimpable though, especially if he fire foxes. I theorize greater practice with gimping Fox would turn you to using Sheik only in this match, but few of us practice against Fox 9 hours a day. MK, maybe, not Fox.

Zelda only is a pretty bad pick. Fox's vertical aerial movement makes it hard to tell what he's about to do... you kind of have to play a good Fox. He's very hard to upsmash, and he's a great juggler, which steers us away from Zelda.

Game & Watch: Sheik, StZ, SaZ
Notes: Game & Watch has the bucket, which puts a tight leash on Din's Fire. Sheik gets to keep her needles, which can force approach from Game & Watch. Sheik is fast enough in the air and on the ground to punish the key and edge guard him during his recovery. Sheik has several chances to out speed Game and Watch in the air and on the ground, even though G&W will always outrange her.

Sheik can fight the turtle better than Zelda can, which is a big reason here why Sheik is favored.

Sheik and StZ are pretty close, for true, as Ankoku has it. However, i think the decay is going to wear away at Sheik if you use her to lonesomely, which is why i've listed StZ. SaZ is good to, sprinkling Zelda in a little bit can keep your opponent wondering, and blind them to Sheik's speed when it returns.
Ganondorf: Any
Notes: Ganondorf has trouble fighting anyone of wisdom. It doesn't really matter what character you use, to beat Ganondorf one must simply learn what Ganondorf can and cannot do and play against him with nearly any character. I believe Ganon wins tournaments when people don't understand what he can and cannot do.

Ice Climbers: Zelda
Notes: All of Zelda's ground moves except for Dtilt, Ftilt, and Dsmash, have a particularly large area of effect. This means Zelda can "mob" the ice climbers well, easily catching both with one attack. She can outcamp the Ice Climbers, and reflect them. When Nana is separated, Zelda can punish her more brutally if she is unprotected (it's like lightning kicking a CPU 1).
She also gets protection from the chain grab because her tactics are generally less shield grabbable (like sweet spotted kicks that push the shield, ranged game, Nayru's love pushes well, Nair pierces small shields).

Sheik gets CGed. It's bad. Don't even try it.

Ike: Sheik
Notes: "You're too slow" "You're too slow" "You're too slow"

Jigglypuff: StZ, Zelda
Notes: Zelda's anti air abilities help here kill Jiggs.. if Jiggs doesn't Smash DI out.

King DeDeDe: StZ, Zelda
Notes: His bair cancels out all Din's fire, making his wall of pain a fierce approach against Zelda. Sheik can dash in and hit Dedede before his slower aerials. Zelda can kill easily due to his size. You can trade Din's against Waddle throw, but there is some risk of Gordo involved.

Kirby: Zelda
Notes: Zelda can outpriotize Kirby's aerials with upsmash fairly well.

Link: StZ, SaZ
Notes: Reflector is good, Sheik and Zelda both do well here. Link is just sort of an inferior character.

Lucario: Zelda, StZ
Notes: Lucario's increasing damage ability makes the StZ choice very dangerous here. If you don't knock him far with a move pretty early, or don't die in the middle (and we generally hope dying in the middle isn't how the pattern proceeds), then Sheik's difficulty in killing can lead to Lucario putting out lots of damage.
The reflector can come to have somewhat diminished importance against good Lucarios, they'll only use the aura ball when there's enough space for them to perfect shield the slow projectile, or when they are midair (they fall during the movie, and therfore fall below a reflected sphere).
Counter is harder to use on the agile Sheik than slower Zelda. Zelda's wondrous Upsmash is rags against Lucario's insane Dair. So some of this make StZ tempting.

Lucas: StZ, Sheik
Notes: Nayru's love can't punish Lucas's projectiles very well.
The main basis of the selection of Sheik here is PSI Magnet. It regenrate double of what Din's Fire would hit for. That's up to 32%, which almost completely scraps the move from the matchup.
Sheik's needles are powerfully useful.

Luigi: Zelda,
Notes: Zelda is one of this games ack-ack guns, Luigi is an awesome aerialist.

Mario: StZ
Notes: Mario is one of the best anti edgeguarders in the game.

Marth: StZ SaZ, Sheik(for now. in discussion)
Notes: Sheik's aerials are faster than Marth's aerials, which is helpful, especially against Marths who haven't adjusted to Sheik's unusually fast speed. However, Zelda has disjointed hitboxes to help her reach out and hit Marth .
Zelda is easier to Counter.

MetaKnight: StZ SaZ, Sheik, Zelda
Notes: Zelda has range needed against Meta Knight. StZ is a big option here because MK is almost ungimpable. Might as well spend the time transforming.
Zelda has defensive abilities, where Sheik has needles. Both have something to offer.

Ness: Shiek StZ, SaZ
Notes: Zelda doesn't like Ness' fair wall, at all. Not that Sheik likes it.

Olimar: Sheik (contested)
Notes: Sheik's gimping ability makes a big difference in the matchup, as well as her jab's ability to interrupt grabs.

Peach: Zelda
Notes: Peach has an overall defensive strategy, as Zelda does. Zelda has overall ranged superiority, though, which can put Peach out of her preferred state. Zelda is more easily Toaded than Sheik, but Nayru's Love is very effective against Toad.

Sheik gets smacked around like a ragdoll by Peaches awesome aerials. Run in fear.

Pikachu: Zelda
Notes: SaZ is bolded instead of StZ because StZ exposes Sheik to the matchup a lot, and Zelda has it better. She is a good anti aerialst, and can wall several of his approaches. She's great for running-upsmashing his zippings-around, and Nayru's Love is a decent panic when you can't tell what the heck the mouse is doing.

The kill power is important. Pikachu is not that light, and its recovery is beast.

Pit: StZ, Sheik, Zelda, SaZ
Notes: It's hard to rack with Din's, or reflect with Nayru, because of arrow looping, reflectors, and how fast Pit's shot is. Needle's rack better. Pit's slow recovery make transformation easy.

Zelda can land lightning kicks somewhat easily, so transform a bit early here.

Pokemon Trainer:
Starter:
Squirtle- Begin as Zelda. Remain as Zelda for the rest of the match.
Ivysaur- Begin as Sheik. Remain as Sheik for the rest of the match. Become Zelda at first opportunity and remain Zelda for the rest of the match.
Charizard- Begin as Sheik. Transform into Zelda at first opportunity, and remain Zelda for the rest of the match.
Notes: The thinking is that Zelda is better against Squirtle, due to her defense and Sheik's difficulties with combos, and that Sheik is better against Ivysaur, because Ivysaur can be gimped at low percents and Ivysaur's bair spam is more easily answered with Sheik. Charizard could go either way, but since Charizard's ability to gimp Zelda generates concern I'm recommending Sheik. Keep in mind that sticking with one character for the whole match isn't such a bad idea if you consider that many PTs will skip a pokemon to get back to their favorite, so they will play up to 50% of the match as their favorite really. Transforms right after a kill get queued after your opponents' pokemon change load. Transforming becomes very complicated, yeah a bubble KO would be fine, but will you get back? This one's up in the air, what's here for now is what's here for now.

R.O.B.: StZ , Zelda
Notes: Sheik can have some trouble cracking ROB. ROB is a defensive behemoth. Zelda's more passive style can kind of work better. Her reflector is pretty useful here.

Samus: StZ SaZ
Notes: Both characters can fight Samus pretty well. Both can punish overuse of Zair (after sheilding it). Remember not to use the chain with Sheik..... it's a bad habit i have. never pull the cahin on Samus.

SaZ: SaZ
This will probably never happen. But my logic is that switching yourself will equally confuse your opponent. Just because they are comfortable with switching characters doesn't mean they are comfortable with switching enemies.

:shiek:Sheik: Zelda
Notes: Zelda is anti-aerialist, and can hit Sheik a lot. She also has quick but close range punished (like downsmash) that are kind of good against Sheik.

Snake: Sheik
Notes: Needles detonate grenades, and overall Sheik outcamps the matchup. Needles and ftilt > mortar slide and dash attack, leaving very few approach options. Sheik can abuse Snake's aerial weakness more easily.

Sonic: Zelda, StZ
Notes: Sonic likes to beat up on characters who have easily punished after lag and take too many frames to release their own punishes. He'll find no such character in Zelda.

Sheik can fight him well too. Research needs to be done on chain-edgeguarding Sonic, then i'll list Sheik.

StZ: Zelda, Sheik
You still want to punish Sheik's aerials with upsmash if you can. However, Sheik is a bit better than against pure Sheik, because you don't want to give StZ the bonus-quick transform to Zelda.

Toon Link: StZ SaZ
Notes: Both have good matchups here.

Wario: Zelda
Notes: Bair can instantly punish his downthrow. Grabbing equals a lightning kick. Lightning kicking him in general is easy. Upsmash can get all of his aerials, but be careful, he can occasionally thump you with one before upsmash comes out.

Wolf: StZ Sheik
Notes: Skipping the ftilt lock is a bit crazy here.

Yoshi: Zelda SaZ, StZ
Notes: This comes back to Zelda putting the hurt on aerialists. Yoshi tends to get hurt by ranged, disjoint folks. StZ doesn't let Zelda get out there and use her advantages as much as Zelda and SaZ do.

Zelda: Zelda
Notes:

Zero Suit Samus: StZ SaZ
Notes: Sheik and Zelda have a pretty equal time here. Go with what feels right.

_________________________________

i transform because sometimes i feel that zelda is cuter, and sometimes sheik is cuter

Updates:

August 26, 2008 updates: Ankoku's matchup thread was used to generate some picks.
Decided to put multiple strategies for each character, but the bolds are best.
Due to actual tournament experience, i've come to feel that ZaS is a more viable option than i once thought. It's going to bolded sometimes, along with StZ, or even along with a single character in some places that i think it should go. Using them 50/50 in some matches can be useful for creating two different playstyles to fight, but saying that StZ or one character is better or worse will be hard to argue, since it's a tomayto, tomahto thing. But EVERYTHING in this thread is arguable (except that Transforming itself is a good thing. PM SonictheHedgedawg if you want to ask why Transforming is a good strategy. He now knows)

Credits:
Thanks to DanGR for the formatting, Ankoku for his matchup thread info, and everyone for contributing!

All help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[rathy Aro]

I was wondering why there wasn't one of these here. Good ****, on this one and the one in the zelda boards (which should be one >.>)

 

[DanGR]

Olimar: Zelda
Notes: Like i said, i've submitted this thread to the will of the people. Since i have been disagreed by a number larger than myself, the listing is Zelda.

The reasons are... Reflecting purples, outprioritizing pikmin, and outprioritizing tilts i think.

Lol dude, what are these people doing to you?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

the term "hyphen smash" was used and i therefore do not approve.

remove it and i love this - but until then

bleh.

 

[Tenki]

So I'd like to add that after a few grueling matches with RyokoYaksa over wifi on Sheik vs Sonic that if you can get under a platform, like Battlefield and sweetspot the chain consistently, there is no way that Sonic can hit you.

gg.

 

[-Mars-]

Nice guide, it needed to be put over on this board anywayz.

 

[imdavid]

*stamp of approval on the sheik boards*

 

[demodemo]

a lot of work, but can you make the guide a little easier to use by bolding/colouring etc. some of the character names?

 

[popsofctown]

Gimpy's and demodemo's requests, granted

 

[Gimpyfish62]

*stick*

it still needs work - but its a good reference for now at least

 

[Wildfire393]

If a majority is saying Zelda > Snake, I'd like to cast my vote in the other direction.

Sheik's needles shut down grenades at least as well as Din's fire. Probably better, because they're a lot faster. If you catch Snake with a grenade held, he will drop it, forcing him to leave his defensive position. If you catch the grenade just as it was thrown, it explodes, which is often even better. Depending on your distance away, you can take advantage of this to start comboing.
Sheik's needles can also stop Mortar-slide shenanigans. Between this and shutting down grenades, Snake is SCREWED on approaching. He's forced to approach, and he can't use his best approach option. His only real options are: Dashgrab (Sidestep it and punish), Walk into Ftilts (shield and punish), or Aerials (laugh maniacally at his crap airgame, shield/sidestep/whatever, and punish).
And BOY does Sheik punish. Snake is fairly vulnerable to Tilt locking, generally getting no less than 30% after connecting a Ftilt, closer to 35% if it was out of a Jab-cancel (3-6 ftilts, utilt, possible aerial followup, or 3-6 ftilts into an upsmash/downsmash). And due to Snake's weight, Sheik can keep laying on this punishment until Snake is at a fairly high percent.
Sheik also messes up Snake's recovery game something fierce. The slap comes out incredibly quickly, knocks him out of the cypher, and sends him down and away, forcing him to cypher again. Keep doing this until he cyphers relatively close to the stage or gets up to a decent percent (120ish%). If he comes close to the stage, grab him or the cypher and let him plummet. If he c4 recovers, just repeat as necessary. If he gets up to a high enough percent, a strong nair instead of a fair should end him.

The main thing to look out for: Snake may attempt to grenade-pull durring a tilt-lock. If your timing is not frame-perfect, I believe he can, which will mess you up.

 

[demodemo]

thanks for the sticky gimpy

we can still add to the thread right? I mean give more in depth input on how sheik plays against each character since the zelda people probably dont know too much about that

 

[popsofctown]

i like it when he pulls a grenade in tilt lock. It sends Shiek and Snake into the air..... sends Snake into the air... and Sheik into the air..... the air....
I've heard people say it's Zelda's game, but i would greatly prefer to list Sheik, i'm going to list shiek now.

Snake's defense > Zelda's offense, as well.


@demodemo:
the scope of the thread is deciding which of the four options are best for each matchup, and why, for each matchup. I'm trying to encourage solidarity and cohesiveness, since this is a Sheik thing and a Zelda thing. So even though the Zelda people are at time (frequent times) less aware of their counterpart (and less aware of how to win cough) we need to include them. There will be only one thread that is where discussion continues.


However, this version of the walk-in closet is more active right now, so im gonna make this one the offical one. Sheik is sort of the starting point of dual-play anyway.

 

[imdavid]

haha... its funny how this one gets stickied so long while we were fighting so hard to get stealth's stickied for like ever.. thanks gimpy for coming back :] its great to see you sending messages again

 

[Gimpyfish62]

this thread needs a new name because i dont even know what this one means lol

 

[SinkingHigher]

Yo pops, might you consider renovating this thread. It's kinda hard to read.

Also, the title made me think this was a thread about downB



Edit: Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just a Sheik/Zelda matchup guide, no? Why not call it that.

 

[popsofctown]

what should i name this thread? i've used two names and received bad feedback on both

Edit: nvm. I read the edit on Sinkinghigher's post and thought: no it's not, it's a Sheik/Zelda selection guide...... and then i named it

 

[SinkingHigher]

Hooray for name calling!

 

[-Mars-]

Pops I noticed there isn't a matchup listed for Pokemon Trainer. I think instead of just listing him as one character, you should break him down into the three. It should depend on who your opponent is using first.

Squirtle: definitely go Zelda, if Squirtle can't approach you with his aerials(which he can't), then he's pretty much useless

Ivysaur: Sheik, Nothing much really needs to be said because I think we all know how easy it is to gimp Ivy

Charizard: StZ, slow characters are always easy for Sheik although you could make the case for Zelda because it's easier to land lightning kicks. The only thing with using Zelda is that Charizard can gimp Zelda far off the stage very easily but he can't gimp Sheik to save his life.

 

[popsofctown]

if one character transforms or changes pokemon, and the other does it during the first's, then one character gets put on waiting list for loading time... it makes things very complex if you use two characters. I think i will recommend remaining with your initial choice, but basing your initial choice on the initial opposing pokemon.

Edit: Check the notes for my conclusions, a composite of your input and my knowledge that doesn't deviate far from your suggestion.

 

[-Mars-]

Ya that's pretty much along the lines of what I was saying, this guide is looking really good, do you see this guide as being really in depth in the future or is it going to stay short and simple? I wouldn't mind either way, but I think some of the matchups need a little more input.

 

[popsofctown]

I hope for it to be very in-depth in the future. My biggest goal is really that when someone starts brawl or starts Sheik/Zelda, they can look at this guide, and combine it with their own self-knowledge to come up with the absolute best character/transformation strategy for every matchup.

 

[TheFast]

I see you still have lots of my advice on your page >.< Go me. But i saw u have sheik as Olimar. While this might seem like a logical choice it is far from that. This is because, even though Olimar is a ground heavy hitter on the ground with a ranged grab, most of his moves do have alot of after lag and after lag is great for a good Zelda player. Because he can stop Sheiks needles with his pikmen Sheik is forced to fight up close but because of his long range this is hard for Sheik to do. Zelda also has the advantage of most of her attacks take her whole body (or at least most of it), you can use quick down smashs to get pikmen off and be able to catch him before he can reach you. Also dins fire is great against Olimar because it can out-range is pikmen and go through them, also dins fire is a great choice when his if off the stage do to his slow air movement speed. While it might be hard to approach with Zelda you can easyly force him to approach you. Narues (sorry about spelling) Love also can put pikmen on Olimar forcing him to do Down-B or taking the damage either is a great thing for the Zelda player. Due to Olimars small frame and bad recovery he can die at very low damages with Zelda so you can play very defensive and just verry little hit off and still win.

 

[popsofctown]

There's been lots of talk on Olimar. The central issue with your perception on it is that you haven't reached the point where Olimar consistently outcamps Zelda. My training partner and I have played out the projectile war to its fullest, with every possible combination of airdodging, short and long range Din's, and Nayru's, and Olimar has projectile superiority in the matchup. It takes a lot of focus on the part of the Olimar to get there, if you are playing an Olimar behind that point go head and use Zelda because Zelda does win if Olimar lets her outcamp.

 

[TheFast]

There's been lots of talk on Olimar. The central issue with your perception on it is that you haven't reached the point where Olimar consistently outcamps Zelda. My training partner and I have played out the projectile war to its fullest, with every possible combination of airdodging, short and long range Din's, and Nayru's, and Olimar has projectile superiority in the matchup. It takes a lot of focus on the part of the Olimar to get there, if you are playing an Olimar behind that point go head and use Zelda because Zelda does win if Olimar lets her outcamp.

Have you tryed only using dins fire when his off the stage. Stay close or else Naru's love is inert. Since you are approaching the Olimar will want to start using his range, as in his forward smashs, this leads to him using a laggy move that is punished by dodging behind it. I wasn't saying Zelda can outcamp Zelda just she can use Din's fire and Naru's love effectively. (spamming is never the answer against Olimar)

 

[popsofctown]

oh ok. well, he does have after lag on a few moves, up B for one. I don't know if the frame data is available on fsmash, but i'm pretty sure it's IASA is actually really high (if you appear to punish the after lag, it's usually because you hit early enough to knock away the pikmin from the next fsmash, in which case the Olimar should have tilted).
Usually for me, i end up in the ranges close enough where Sheik can hit with ftilt, the ranges where Sheik punishes slightly better than Zelda. There's a place where Zelda does better than Sheik, but Olimar's grab and fsmash both reach that spot as well as they reach Sheik's closer range, so it doesn't seem to matter.
Now, Zelda can punish with kill moves better than Sheik, and her downsmash does have a better trajectory for following up with an edgehog. But then we are talking about StZ, there's no reason for Zelda to do racking for those reasons, especially when Olimar has one of the slowest recoveries in the game.

 

[TheFast]

What about Wario? I'm leaning towards Zelda to counter Wario's good aerials and laggy moves but it seems like Sheik's overall speed would help alot in this match-up.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

not to shamelessly promote my own thread -> http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193954

but.... I mean... like it says, there are multiple ways to play a Zelda shiek.... doesn't the efficacy of Zelda/Shiek depend in exactly how you use them?


also... DDD... I'd go straight Zelda there.... StZ is good in theory... but it's not much better than Zelda alone, if at all, and it's hard for shiek to get breathing room to transform at a good time in this matchup.

Honestly... I'd go Zelda alone.... Zelda EASILY racks damage against this big lummox and has little trouble sealing the deal either.

 

[popsofctown]

I dunno much about Dedede. Sheik kicks are faster than hammers though. That's one reason Sheik is helpful. Zelda's fair is relatively slow, and her bair has less range than Sheik's.

I'll bold Zelda and StZ for now..

 

[Gimpyfish62]

ddd is hard for sheik T-T

spotdodge spam is gay and ddds grabs are amazing even w/o a chaingrab

 

[TheFast]

DDD is also heavy air with laggy moves can't forget that. ++ for Zelda

 

[rathy Aro]

Zelda ***** DDD. Lightning Kicks, and her smashes make him look light and she has no trouble racking. She out camps him and she's little hard to edge guard which is usually one of DDDs main strengths. I don't know about Sheik, but if he actually does win that match up I'm really mad lost in tourney finals last week..... (I picked Lucario and Sheik instead of my main>.>)

 

[M@v]

ddd is hard for sheik T-T

spotdodge spam is gay and ddds grabs are amazing even w/o a chaingrab

agreed. DDD got the down throw-ftilt combo on almost everyone, even several of the people he can't chaingrab >_>. And bthrow/fthrow are strong, and set up wall of pain almost perfectly.


Zelda is the better choice vs DDD. at least you can stay away and try camping. Key word TRY.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

agreed. DDD got the down throw-ftilt combo on almost everyone, even several of the people he can't chaingrab >_>. And bthrow/fthrow are strong, and set up wall of pain almost perfectly.


Zelda is the better choice vs DDD. at least you can stay away and try camping. Key word TRY.

no, not try. Zelda's Din's actually outcamps waddle dees fantastically... believe it or not. It's one of it's better applications. Also, Zelda Usmash chains DDD to respectable damages... and DESTROYS him with ther aeirals as well as punishing his recovery any way she sees fit.

it's a fantastic matchup for Zelda.

 

[TheFast]

A suggestion for Wario StZ because both do well sheik out speeds his moves and Zelda is great for punishing him and he is aerial so another + for Zelda. Note: Dins isn't that great in this match up because he has slow air dodges with quick DI this gives his dodges great coverage.

 

[theONEjanitor]

i'd rather stay sheik against all the space animals. she can edgeguard and combo them easily.

 

[-Mars-]

i'd rather stay sheik against all the space animals. she can edgeguard and combo them easily.

She can also be chaingrabbed by Falco and Wolf and Fox CAN kill her pretty easily. It really doesn't matter that much against the spacies.

One one hand you can get the tilt lock and rack up some pretty nasty damage(especially against Fox), or you could live longer and kill earlier. It's pretty much up to how you want to play the matchup, which is why transform is so good.

 

[Zankoku]

Fox, being a light character that is easily tiltlocked, should not be difficult to KO as Sheik unless you completely avoid the ftilt or something.

 

[popsofctown]

i'd rather stay sheik against all the space animals. she can edgeguard and combo them easily.

If sheik isn't already bolded against Fox, i'll bold her now.

As for Wolf, are you sure his recovery is easily gimped? I thought it hurts you if you try to kick it, and can even go through the stage.

There's a specific reason sheik falls from favor in the matchup versus Falco, and that's because Falco has really good chain grab on Sheik, and no chaingrab on Zelda. What happens is both you and falco rack eachother up to a high point very quickly. Then it's kill game vs. kill game, and Sheik doesn't want to be playing kill game vs. kill game. Sheik can gimp Falco but she has to knock him off first. Zelda does it better here, Zelda can more easily kill falco completely than Sheik can knock off Falco and force use of his poor recovery.


Now if you are going with the logic of "if i knock him off with Sheik, why would i transform, i can just gimp and be done with it," that's not wrong, that's just a flexible StZ playing style, "don't transform if you think you can gimp." However, if you spawn against a 110% or so Falco, you should transform into Zelda (assuming you play the two with equal skill).

 

[Zankoku]

I just figured that if you decay the ftilt properly, all three space animals can be combo'd into ftilt tipper usmash at a KO %.