Sheik Video & Video Critique Thread

[Orion*]

I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't know the Sheik MU as well as I'd think to know that they can pull a grenade out of her throws as Orion didn't know Bthrow didn't blow up a grenade ( or it seems ).

I'm actually decent at the Snake MU otherwise, my nerves are slowly going away, but in all honesty, I was playing False at one of my first tournaments, I'm bound to make some mistakes he can capitalize on. I don't play many high level Snakes, and that was the first time I had played a really good one offline. Oh well.

The wording on that first part is there I didnt even get the full meaning of what you said.

But if you're lacking the ability to juggle snake properly I wouldnt say you are solid vs snake at all, as that is such a major and integral part of the matchup regardless of character what you play.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Juggling snake is scary, bair beats everything.

 

[Dcold]

Juggling Snake as Sheik is not as easy as it looks, bair beats everything, and he can pull a grenade out of up air I believe. Rather than trading or completely losing and taking damage, I'd rather punish his landings and if he pulls a grenade then, so be it.

In the first part I was saying, by your post before it didn't seem like you knew Bthrow didn't allow a nade to be pulled (or so it seemed), and you use Sheik, I wouldn't assume that someone who doesn't play the Sheik MU often would know they could pull a nade out of my throws. I did stupid things by assuming he did not know, but I made the wrong gamble.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Sheik can poke out snakes grenades in the air pretty well, but the threat of bair s too real, also his falling uair beats out our rising upair... That was a sad loss for me in tournament.

 

[Dcold]

Imo I'd rather make him eat 15% every time he lands than trading damage any day. I only really juggle him out of Cypher, because I mean it's literally free damage there.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

I mean punishing landings is boring, and if he lands with a grenade he gets frame adv which makes it a real pain to actually get good needle punishes in.

 

[sheikamaru]

sometimes, when snake is falling above on top of me i like to down smash.

 

[Death Arcana]

Guys just jump up at Snake when he's above you and react to what they do. If he air dodges(which will be the case most of the time) Double Jump and Nair after the airdodge. If he bairs or does some other ******** aerial perfect since you didn't really commit to anything free damage for you. If he's one of those Snakes that likes to reverse grenade switch a lot then grab. If he just simply pulls out a grenade in the air space your Uair.

Sheik has one of the fastest Double Jumps in the game, take advantage guys.

-Mars

 

[phi1ny3]

Sounds good, Sheik's SH has a lot of utility in general, that's probably what I wasn't doing enough in juggle attempts.

bair can be stopped by several of sheik's ground options. Utilt is pretty amazing against snake if he doesn't know he can drop a grenade between the two kicks (doesn't always blow up even then), usmash is really good if you can time it (if you get it down, you can hit air dodges often too, although it's pretty difficult). And of course, there's the shield grab, needles, or hard read vanish haha.

Oh yeah, one of the best troll options from getting dthrown is regular get up -> turnaround -> grab/jab, not a lot of snakes expect this, but if they do, they'll hit you hard. The most important thing about dthrow though is obviously not being predictable with your options, and not getting grabbed in the first place haha.

 

[sheikamaru]

just a guessing game from there... woe and behold if you do get grabbed tho

 

[Orion*]

I mean punishing landings is boring, and if he lands with a grenade he gets frame adv which makes it a real pain to actually get good needle punishes in.

he's also limiting himself if he lands w/ said option and also he can be hit before he lands if he does this. Just hitting him w/ full charged needles or regrab in this situation is pretty gay lol.

im pretty confident uair beats bair in a lot of situations O_o
like you guys are the sheik mains im just picking up the character again recently now that i have time to look into extra options post apex, but i have good basics. i had a friend falling bair and i was able to uair, utilt and usmash that **** w/ proper spacing.

when snakes uses bair just before he lands is pretty gay but you can shield -> punish that, or many times already be under him and the option was pre emptively covered

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, I know utilt and usmash for sure beat it (in fact, snake bair practically begs to get tipper charged usmashed if you have the timing down, it's probably your easiest insurance for a kill besides managing to hit him while he's recovering), in fact, utilt is very easy to use as a juggle tool, and up until high percents it goes into dash grab, dash attack, and even aerials or another utilt if they DI up. Dsmash beats it as well, as long as one of the hitboxes are active.

uair is hard because you usually have to make sure that you do it while rising, because uair lag is pretty unforgivable. That and it's hard to judge when to hit snake as he's fast falling lol.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

It begs to get charge Usmashed but the risk is that we get lighter in holding that charge. So if we are just out of range for kill percent, we suddenly are well within killing time on hit.

Nair terrifies me, but that is because I get hit by it 100000 times out of 5. You literally can throw it from another TV, and I'll find a way to get whacked by it, and don't get me started on trying to beat it with Utilt/Usmash........Waaah.

Otherwise, I usually throw him and stalk him. Read all his habits in the air and then punish until he changes up.

 

[Dcold]

It begs to get charge Usmashed but the risk is that we get lighter in holding that charge. So if we are just out of range for kill percent, we suddenly are well within killing time on hit.

Do we literally get lighter? O_o

I personally don't like up smashing since if I miss, I'm going to get punished for it. I'd rather take the safe option rather than the big hit option, a little over half of the time. Other times I just go buck wild and do stupid things.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Yup....get hit charging something....get lighter.

 

[Orion*]

Anyone want to help me learn to use chain properly btw?? I suck at using that ****

What are the rules regarding ftilting Marth?

Why don't I see dash attack used as burst options more?

Advantages of dtilt? I never seem to use that thing. Combos well but it just never seems optimal.

 

[phi1ny3]

dtilt is cool for jab mixups, the pushback is kinda like MK dsmash where it's vulnerable to attacks out of shield, but it usually is pretty hard to shieldgrab because of how far it pushes them. Cross does this one combo with dtilt against SLS' falco, it looked really awesome.

Chain? Easiest one is doing the SH chain, then repeatedly flicking up on the cstick really fast for me. I can't usually do ground chain though haha.

ftilt against Marth? Only for poking or quick burst combos like ftilt -> dsmash or fair at mid percents, too risky to trying locking marth

dash attack is probably used less because people get a bad habit of doing it on shield? Idk, it's a really good option if you use it to punish things.

 

[Dcold]

Dtilt at low percentages comboes into itself on fast fallers it seems, from playing Ish I learned that. Not sure if guaranteed, but it does. Her crouch is pretty low so you can crouch until a character's bair (Like wolf) and punish with a dtilt. Not the best, but it works.

I believe we have 2 ftilts on Marth, then he can Dolphin out. Can shield it if they're not perfect, and leaves them really vulnerable.

Chain is probably my favorite move, but I usually go for the lock. If you're just trying to bat people off, it's just good rhythm to hit them where they are whilst swinging it. If you're going for the lock, personally I like to do the backwards one because if they try to DI into it, they can't get through it as it just moves Sheik forward. When you catch them in it, I just move the control stick between straight down and the diagonal direction that they're in (if they're right, move it back and forth to South East, and left South West etc.). I use the chain often so you'll see it in my videos if you want to see exactly how I catch people with it. I'm not the best at it, but I do use it often.

Those are just my personal uses, I'm sure there are better ones though.

 

[Orion*]

dtilt is cool for jab mixups, the pushback is kinda like MK dsmash where it's vulnerable to attacks out of shield, but it usually is pretty hard to shieldgrab because of how far it pushes them. Cross does this one combo with dtilt against SLS' falco, it looked really awesome.

I don't even like MK's dsmash That much though. Back hit is gay and it's good damage if the punish is free but like the lack of safety considering the reward makes it awkward, especially in sheiks case.

Chain? Easiest one is doing the SH chain, then repeatedly flicking up on the cstick really fast for me. I can't usually do ground chain though haha.

XD
what does that even do
/will test later

ftilt against Marth? Only for poking or quick burst combos like ftilt -> dsmash or fair at mid percents, too risky to trying locking marth

Why fair over nair/uair/utilt?
/if it's damage i apologize i have her general frame data pretty much memorized but not the damage.

Can you ftilt lock him if you're perfect though?

dash attack is probably used less because people get a bad habit of doing it on shield? Idk, it's a really good option if you use it to punish things.

Yeah but I never see people like... punish zoning with it so much.
a good example that I think is pretty universal and I sometimes see sheiks do is like, if MK spaces a fair then you can hit him in the cool down if it's in range. so tip dash attack is a super safe range for sheik to be in.

but this can extend to people doing anything grounded, empty sh'ing, or pre emptively hitting them when they attempt to dash.

Dtilt at low percentages comboes into itself on fast fallers it seems, from playing Ish I learned that. Not sure if guaranteed, but it does. Her crouch is pretty low so you can crouch until a character's bair (Like wolf) and punish with a dtilt. Not the best, but it works.

no shine/sdi ? O_o
/will test this

I believe we have 2 ftilts on Marth, then he can Dolphin out. Can shield it if they're not perfect, and leaves them really vulnerable.

kk

Chain is probably my favorite move, but I usually go for the lock. If you're just trying to bat people off, it's just good rhythm to hit them where they are whilst swinging it. If you're going for the lock, personally I like to do the backwards one because if they try to DI into it, they can't get through it as it just moves Sheik forward. When you catch them in it, I just move the control stick between straight down and the diagonal direction that they're in (if they're right, move it back and forth to South East, and left South West etc.). I use the chain often so you'll see it in my videos if you want to see exactly how I catch people with it. I'm not the best at it, but I do use it often.

Those are just my personal uses, I'm sure there are better ones though.

idk what the lock even is XD

also

i remember that it turned out to be ungauranteed. but i dont remember why.... that silly like ftilt footstool weak bair reset lock ish.

why can people get out of it again? i want to know so that i can elimate some ideas for followups that i have if it wouldnt work already

 

[Zankoku]

Technically Marth can Dolphin Slash Sheik's utilt but I've yet to meet anyone who both knows and watches for this.

Sheik's ftilt has really good range and ends pretty quickly so I feel it's a bit more versatile of a zoning tool than nair or uair.

Don't dash attack at low percents, its cooldown is literally so bad that you can get punished for hitting with it.

 

[phi1ny3]

I don't even like MK's dsmash That much though. Back hit is gay and it's good damage if the punish is free but like the lack of safety considering the reward makes it awkward, especially in sheiks case.

Dtilt is a good mixup for people who like to shieldgrab whatever comes after jab mixups (best example of its effectiveness is NEO v. Will), the de facto way to punish dtilt after jab is to punish with upB oos or attacks, which the simplest response to this is to just run or SH backwards after jabbing shield. It creates a nice rps effect.

XD
what does that even do
/will test later

the trick with chain is that the cstick adds "ticks" to the chain, if you have a good grasp on DSSDI it should be easy to understand how to effectively get the chain to lock. I do up because it's the easiest. If you're doing grounded chain though, you'll want to rotate along the ground iirc. Of course, you have to add the regular analog to it, but the cstick allows you to add a lot more attacks within iterations, and therefore, more hitstun/damage

Why fair over nair/uair/utilt?
/if it's damage i apologize i have her general frame data pretty much memorized but not the damage.

Can you ftilt lock him if you're perfect though?

Nair works, although I like to keep it as fresh as possible. General rule of thumb for me is to keep either nair or bair fresh, depending on the matchup, because the killpower from one of those aerials are fairly good. Utilt is also good, as is uair, although I find that most people don't DI up, and fair can lead to more stringing potential (although respectively, uair leads to more juggling, which is just as good)

Can you ftilt lock him if you're perfect though?

Nope, it's the same reason why sheik can't ftilt lock DK/Wario/Snake (although with wario it's sideB that stops it, and snake it's grenades). You can usually get off two then a grab or an attack.

Yeah but I never see people like... punish zoning with it so much.
a good example that I think is pretty universal and I sometimes see sheiks do is like, if MK spaces a fair then you can hit him in the cool down if it's in range. so tip dash attack is a super safe range for sheik to be in.

but this can extend to people doing anything grounded, empty sh'ing, or pre emptively hitting them when they attempt to dash.

They do it to things like marth fair (especially if they're stupid marths that do SH double fairs lol). I think that this also sorts of explains it, sheik's DA is a little risky at low percents:

Technically Marth can Dolphin Slash Sheik's utilt but I've yet to meet anyone who both knows and watches for this.

Sheik's ftilt has really good range and ends pretty quickly so I feel it's a bit more versatile of a zoning tool than nair or uair.

Don't dash attack at low percents, its cooldown is literally so bad that you can get punished for hitting with it.

MK fair I have the feeling that people in general don't punish very well, I know I didn't with lucario until I saw how Junebug did it.

There are things I think almost every good sheik thinks other sheiks should do more or improve, for example, I think Sheiks need to hop onto making their fairs autocancel consistently while falling whether it's whiffed or on an opponent's shield. Everyone who doesn't know about sheik raves about her inability to directly challenge shield (although we all know how sheik can run circles around shields and harass pretty well), but when sheik's use fair, the shield hitlag throws off their timing and it gets punished because they get the regular landing lag lol. If they can get consistent with falling autocancel fair, they can spotdodge or jab before the opponent can get a grab out (or can run away, make the opponent whiff a grab, then dash back in to punish the lag).

no shine/sdi ? O_o
/will test this

dtilt iirc needs some percentage on them to do dtilt -> dtilt w/o them getting out. That or if you do it to someone who's just over the ledge haha.

i remember that it turned out to be ungauranteed. but i dont remember why.... that silly like ftilt footstool weak bair reset lock ish.

why can people get out of it again? i want to know so that i can elimate some ideas for followups that i have if it wouldnt work already

There's nothing to truly keep them in per se, unless you hit them with the back of it. It works though because people don't expect that much damage in such a short amount of time, it's pretty intimidating if they're shielding it (lolol y can't u punish me?), and you can make it a really nasty ledge option covering trap.

Technically Marth can Dolphin Slash Sheik's utilt but I've yet to meet anyone who both knows and watches for this.

Probably because if the utilt is on the very end when it connects, it's really risky to upB out of XD

 

[Dcold]

Uhm, if you want to see what the chain lock is, here and here show it in action during a match.

It only works once a match unless you're playing someone extremely forgetful/doesn't adapt. High risk at high percents, low percents it's a little risky, but not terrible if you get punished for it. Gets Sheik that much closer to a kill when you really need it as it racks up damage extremely quick.

 

[Orion*]

On friends phone will comment more later

I def think all sheik mains see room for improvement in other sheiks, but even from a basics standpoint she is not an easy character to play vs good people consistently.

I tend to never think of stale moves past a pretty basic standpoint and go for maxing my follow ups. If I keep a specific move fresh I feel limited when it may be time to use said move as a better option, and I don't like hesitating at all.

As far as keeping one fresh in mind for specific instances like after ftilt cool but in general it just doesn't work for me.

 

[Dcold]

Only moves I keep fresh are moves that are not easily hit in the first place, barring Down Smash.

I only TRY to keep that move fresh so I can kill near the edge of stages at like 130~. Anytime that you can down smash to punish, you can atleast Jab and try to follow into something else, or even a grab. But it's not something that NEEDS to be kept fresh.

 

[False]

I feel I would have played much differently if it were tournament. I would have done what I usually do vs Snakes; camp. But I didn't, oh well, hindsight is 20-20. No johns, only a dollar. Were good games anyway and good MU experience. Props to False

(::::::::::::::::::

 

[Dcold]

I've got you next time False. :]

 

[sheikamaru]

Only moves I keep fresh are moves that are not easily hit in the first place, barring Down Smash.

I only TRY to keep that move fresh so I can kill near the edge of stages at like 130~. Anytime that you can down smash to punish, you can atleast Jab and try to follow into something else, or even a grab. But it's not something that NEEDS to be kept fresh.

even if the dsmash is fresh it has to hit a certain way to kill. there are like three hits to it and you just know when it is and when it isn't going to kill lol

 

[Dcold]

I just turn my dsmashes in the direction they are = sweetspot most of the time lol

 

[phi1ny3]

I used to use my moves like that, until I played a DK, and it really hurts to have none of your moves kill even later than normal, which is pretty appalling to begin with. I had trouble finishing him off unless I got him offstage or if he was at 220% lol, whereas he was very capable of getting some nasty kill setups on me through juggling. I usually keep bair fresh becaus of nair's utility, unless I'm in a MU that needs the bair for spacing or keep away, which I'll incorporate it more.

 

[Dcold]

I keep Nair fresh, simply because it's so hard for me to actually get off, unless it's weak hit -> anything. It's so slow especially on miss, and I'm terrible at using it.

Also, thanks Cross for teaching me you can input a dash before DACUSing in Grab Release, never knew you could do that, and it helps a great deal.

 

[Orion*]

Sheik's ftilt has really good range and ends pretty quickly so I feel it's a bit more versatile of a zoning tool than nair or uair.

Don't dash attack at low percents, its cooldown is literally so bad that you can get punished for hitting with it.

i meant nair/uair as followups after ftilt sorry my wording was bad

yeah i think ive literally combod a sheik to death for that in tournament once with mk. he dash attacked me and i just like nair -> dtilt trip -> dash grab to ledge -> gimp LOL

It only works once a match unless you're playing someone extremely forgetful/doesn't adapt. High risk at high percents, low percents it's a little risky, but not terrible if you get punished for it. Gets Sheik that much closer to a kill when you really need it as it racks up damage extremely quick.

yeahhh i saw you do that and was like wtf i dont understand this move. i think that and sheiks wind box on vanish are like the only things that really are super awkward for me at this point.

i think dash pivot with her are pretty hard in comparison to other characters also. dash -> jab and dsmash are fine when im warmed up though.

Only moves I keep fresh are moves that are not easily hit in the first place, barring Down Smash.

I only TRY to keep that move fresh so I can kill near the edge of stages at like 130~. Anytime that you can down smash to punish, you can atleast Jab and try to follow into something else, or even a grab. But it's not something that NEEDS to be kept fresh.

Why not grab? Like grab (depending on player but i don't count on it... potential pummel) keeps ish fresh and has amazing followups if you get your juggle game really solid. jab is gay but not always consistent. dsmash is better fresh, so i tend to almost always grab punish wise unless there's something specific followup wise that would be better.

I used to use my moves like that, until I played a DK, and it really hurts to have none of your moves kill even later than normal, which is pretty appalling to begin with. I had trouble finishing him off unless I got him offstage or if he was at 220% lol, whereas he was very capable of getting some nasty kill setups on me through juggling. I usually keep bair fresh becaus of nair's utility, unless I'm in a MU that needs the bair for spacing or keep away, which I'll incorporate it more.

Yeah DKs uair kills sheik annoyingly early in that mu if you **** up once. Oh god
But like I just generally think DK is horrible anyways


do we have frame advantage data after jab 1/2??

 

[Dcold]

I think Ankoku said earlier that Jab 1 only follows into Jab 2, and that's what I was saying, you can always Jab/Grab instead of down smash to punish things. Jab Cancel after 2->Grab/Ftilt/Anything? Not sure if guaranteed, but it works a hell of a lot of the time. I try to steer away from using Dsmash to punish mistakes at lower percents, to keep it fresh to punish mistakes at higher percents.

Another thing that's useful that you should become fluid with is pivot needles, like dashing in one way then just turning and throwing needles. It's extremely quick and catches most people trying to chase you across the stage. It also just is like a spacer, it makes people think twice about chasing you, especially if you just dash in one way and charge needles in their direction, the fear of being hit by it will probably make them stop chasing. Don't think anyone wants to eat 15%~ for nothing

 

[RaptorTEC]

Dcold next time we see each other wanna 10$ mm my IC's vs your Sheik? I swear I can't cg. I just can't do it.

 

[Dcold]

Lmao get out of here, "Omg I can't chain grab stop playing Falco like that"
> Gets grabbed
>> Gets Chain Grabbed
>>> Loses match

 

[RaptorTEC]

>.> Lies.

 

[Dcold]

Truth. And I thought you were going to Gauntlet?

 

[RaptorTEC]

Nah I got stuff to do :O I'll be at Brawl It Out next week though where the IC's vs Sheik mm will happen jk lol

 

[Dcold]

Ah alright see ya there then. I'm taking top 5 just saying.

 

[RaptorTEC]

It's probably in this thread somewhere but I'm lazy but do you have your set against Sama recorded?

 

[Dcold]

Yeah I have it recorded, it's on my channel oCloudz