Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KirbyKaze]

Combo questions vs Falcon:

D-throw dash attack on DI away is around 100%
D-throw turn around regrab is something weird like 37% but d-throw > turn around u-tilt works at like 0% provided your grab is full power (not sure if it works at less) so that should tide you over for a good chunk of percent

Tech chase option question:

Dash attack is good vs FFers as low as their minimum knockdown percent but you have to understand your role in the tech chase game as someone who has just grounded their opponent. For the average player, I'd say 30%+

 

[Salevits]

Can you throw in the average percent for Jabbing missed techs as well?

 

[Xyzz]

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-13#post-5567275 is linked in the first post of this very thread as "jab / needle reset percentages".

Seriously, you guys have it soooo good with KK compiling almost everything that's remotely interesting to Sheik, and you just ignore it

 

[Salevits]

Oh sorry my bad. :S I do have my own library of useful posts and links, I just didn't find those in them so...

 

[TRK]

Tech chase option question:

Dash attack is good vs FFers as low as their minimum knockdown percent but you have to understand your role in the tech chase game as someone who has just grounded their opponent. For the average player, I'd say 30%+

This is something I've thought about, but it's unclear to me why you'd ever prefer to use dash attack instead of grab unless the dash attack will lift the FFer opponent off the ground. Grab seems to make continuing the tech chase easier than dash attack. First, using dash attack at these percentages (high enough to knockdown but not high enough to lift them clear off the ground) gives your opponent the chance to DI down and ground tech, I believe.

Even if they don't ground tech, grab and dthrow would seem to make continuing your tech chase easier than dash attack and grounding them. If you grab and dthrow, they have four options (tech in place, tech behind, tech away, no tech). If you dash attack and ground them, they also have four options (stand up, roll behind, roll away, get up attack). For me, it's easier to cover the first set of four options than the latter set of four options because the latter set of options includes get up attack. Sheik can cover the first four options by just standing there and seeing what the FFer does, since she's in no immediate danger of being attacked. To cover the second set of four options, sheik needs to account for get up attack, which can't be covered just by standing there and waiting (unless you're good enough to shield get up attack on reaction).

KK, what is the advantage of using dash attack to ground your opponent as opposed to regrabbing in these situations?

 

[TRK]

Also, thank you for answering my combo percentage questions vs Falcon. That was very helpful.

 

[joejoe22802]

I don't think the intention is to knock them down. Knock down is not a percent between lift and something else.

 

[Kaffei]

KK, do you have any tips on keep ppl on the ledge? I'm really bad at pressuring ppl when they are cornered. Idk what moves to use LOL

 

[joejoe22802]

Don't stand right next to them or else they can go right past you. Space it out so its difficult for them to choose any type of attack, jump or roll past.

 

[TRK]

I don't think the intention is to knock them down. Knock down is not a percent between lift and something else.

The intention may not be to knock them down, but good opponents will hold down at those percentages so that dash attack grounds them instead of lifting them. It's useful to consider what sheik's optimal response to this is.

 

[Tero.]

Hey guys, I have a few new videos again and any help is very appreciated

Tero (Sheik) vs Usleon (Fox) - 1:3
Tero (Sheik) vs Zettroxx (Sheik) - 3:0
Tero (Sheik) vs Kellner (Peach) - 3:1

Side notes: Kellner is a newcomer and a bit worse than me. Zettroxx is a lot better than me but he didnt play his main character (Falco). Since Im quite sure nobody wants to watch 3 sets I think its best to just have a look at the set vs Usleon.

Thank you guys!

 

[SPAWN]

Tero. - I watched about 8 mins worth of you vs Usleon.

What I saw was you telegraphed what you were going to do a lot of the time. I saw you wavedash back combined with empty jumping/sh back fair a lot then when you decided to go in, 90% of the time you dash attacked. This made Usleon not really have to fear much since he could just keep lasering you til you came in and dash attacked allowing Ulseon to shield>punish all that dash attack lag. Just some suggestions to not only dash attack, try mixing in some grabs in there as well as maybe jumping at him and fairing. Or stay back and win the camp game with needles because I see m2k do it. Whatever you want to do so long as you don't dash attack every time when your opponent is waiting for you to come in.

Downsmash also isn't great at low percents and I saw you do it when Fox wasn't that close to you which gave Usleon some free punishes. One of your habits I noticed was when you came from the ledge and got back onto the stage you'd roll like 70-80% of the time.

Good RNS>bairs for edgeguarding against his illusions, liked those.

More utilt please, it's so good. I like it when Fox is above you on platforms but it's pretty much good so long as they're close range.

For edgeguarding, I noticed whenever you bthrow'd and ran off he'd just airdodge and actually he was airdodging quite a bit in general with throwing in occasional illusions/firefoxes. After asking KK, I think even by the edge for the majority of the time you should just tech chase (even for PAL) since Fox's options are limited for what he can do to escape. Maybe not if you're right by the ledge at certain percents since in PAL Sheik throws Fox farther. Test it out and see what you think. If you find you're having better success bthrowing then keep bthrowing.

 

[Salevits]

I just watched the Overtriforce VS Ice Sheik dittos through.

I noticed they don't seem to go for SH fairs in neutral game, pretty much at all. They always choose some other option.

From what I've read, at least KK thinks SH Fair is pretty much your main tool in this MU..

I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on this subject.

 

[KirbyKaze]

SH Fair is great vs certain styles of anti-airs that are prolific in the match up because of her high jump and Fair's enormous red bubbles.

That said, it's not foolproof. Ground control with emphasis on creating grab opportunities and limiting the opposing Sheik's options by crouch abuse is very strong too.

 

[joejoe22802]

So why is shield drop good? Why not just normally drop?

Also does the late nair soap and I were talking about have enough hit stun to lead to a free grab?

Lastly I had no idea that dash attack cancel grab had different timings. Pretty exciting to me.

 

[Xyzz]

I've recently learned that shield drop gets rid of the crouch frames, so it's a bit faster :D
But the main reason usually is that, well, you can do it out of shield.
E.g. usually a Marth standing below a platform you are on, is taking no risk at all if he's up tilting your shield. With shield drop he actually risks you dropping down afterwards with an aerial.

 

[soap]

if the late nair is fresh and done real low you are at a frame tie and can attempt to grab if you want.

I usually just dsmash to stuff whatever they were trying to do. It will also counter the buffer sidestep. Then mix in grabs when they learn to hold for the dsmash.

 

[Tero.]

Tero. - I watched about 8 mins worth of you vs Usleon.

What I saw was you telegraphed what you were going to do a lot of the time. I saw you wavedash back combined with empty jumping/sh back fair a lot then when you decided to go in, 90% of the time you dash attacked. This made Usleon not really have to fear much since he could just keep lasering you til you came in and dash attacked allowing Ulseon to shield>punish all that dash attack lag. Just some suggestions to not only dash attack, try mixing in some grabs in there as well as maybe jumping at him and fairing. Or stay back and win the camp game with needles because I see m2k do it. Whatever you want to do so long as you don't dash attack every time when your opponent is waiting for you to come in.

Downsmash also isn't great at low percents and I saw you do it when Fox wasn't that close to you which gave Usleon some free punishes. One of your habits I noticed was when you came from the ledge and got back onto the stage you'd roll like 70-80% of the time.

Good RNS>bairs for edgeguarding against his illusions, liked those.

More utilt please, it's so good. I like it when Fox is above you on platforms but it's pretty much good so long as they're close range.

For edgeguarding, I noticed whenever you bthrow'd and ran off he'd just airdodge and actually he was airdodging quite a bit in general with throwing in occasional illusions/firefoxes. After asking KK, I think even by the edge for the majority of the time you should just tech chase (even for PAL) since Fox's options are limited for what he can do to escape. Maybe not if you're right by the ledge at certain percents since in PAL Sheik throws Fox farther. Test it out and see what you think. If you find you're having better success bthrowing then keep bthrowing.

Thank you, thats some really good advice. Especially the stuff for the neutral game.
I realized mid match that I don't really know what to do when Fox is just Laser Camping.
I wasn't sure if i could beat it with needles (anybody has a link to m2k Matches where he does it?) so i mostly ran in with da/Grab, sometimes DSmash but i Never really got any reward from it.
Run in sh fair feels so unsafe, like asking them to please Nair all over my Face.

I was a Fox Main before Sheik, thats why i Never had These Problems because usually i was the one lasering or i would just lolnairplane

 

[Kaffei]

Thank you, thats some really good advice. Especially the stuff for the neutral game.
I realized mid match that I don't really know what to do when Fox is just Laser Camping.
I wasn't sure if i could beat it with needles (anybody has a link to m2k Matches where he does it?) so i mostly ran in with da/Grab, sometimes DSmash but i Never really got any reward from it.
Run in sh fair feels so unsafe, like asking them to please Nair all over my Face.

I was a Fox Main before Sheik, thats why i Never had These Problems because usually i was the one lasering or i would just lolnairplane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7CEcxGxqAk#t=7m14s

The match on dreamland M2K is playing pretty campy idk maybe it'll help

 

[-RedShadow]

Do y'all think I could get a more elaborate critique of this set? Even though it's kinda old by now I still feel like I play terrible vs spacies. I was thinking maybe another person's input might help.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox's lasers don't actually make you have to approach him until about the 1:30 mark on the timer, and even then a lot of it can be mitigated by shino stalling, platform tricks, and your needles.

 

[Tero.]

Knockdown %

Falcon (NTSC/PAL)
Dash Attack: 25%
Ftilt: 29%
Dtilt: 48%
Dsmash: 25%

Fox (PAL only)
Dash Attack: 19%
Ftilt: 23%
Dsmash: 19%

Falco (PAL only)
Dash Attack: 20%
Ftilt: 25%
Dsmash: 20%

Marth (PAL only)
Dash Attack: 22 %
Ftilt: 26%
Dsmash: 21%

Peach
Dash Attack: 22%
Ftilt: 27%
Dsmash: 22%

 

[atangerine]

Any tips on SH nair directly out of sheild? I always do a full jump...

 

[Tero.]

release jump button sooner

 

[omgwtfToph]

slide ur thumb hella fast

 

[Sweet™]

I flick the C Stick and press Z.

A bit unorthodox, but it works for me.

 

[Tero.]

Has anybody got some advice for neutral game? I always feel helpless when my opponent does not approach. Even more if he has Laser...

 

[Sweet™]

Lasers won't kill you. If he's laser camping, do some fancy platform navigation. Or just plank the edge.

 

[BTmoney]

Can someone break down the flow chart for tech chasing spacies and what you can do on reaction, how you position yourself after the grab and so on and so forth?
^A completely (complete) answer to that would be delicious


Also any guidelines on abusing your utilt IASA, what are some good things to do after it?

 

[Purpletuce]

there is a detailed one around here if you want to look for it. There are also tips around too. . . here is a simplified version:

Start with your down throw. If they DI away, walk forward a little, so that if they tech in place you're able to reach them with a grab (not sure, but if you're too close they might be able to SDI jabs behind you.) If they Di behind you, turn around for the same reasons as above.

After they land, look for a green flash, that means they missed the tech/decided not to tech. If you see the flash, jab reset (at low %s), at high %s, depending on character, they might get options/sdi out of a jab reset, so go for an attack of your choice (usually f-tilt or D-smash, D-smash covers tech in place if you messed up and they didn't miss the tech, F-tilt combos well and if you mess up you can still chase them to apply pressure).

Recognize if they teched in place, if they did, standing grab. If they didn't, wait follow their roll and regrab (boost grab/running grab/JC grab, I think all of them work in their own way with their own timings. I do running grab, probably because I play Yoshi.)

Repeat.

 

[Tero.]

Has anybody got some advice for neutral game? I always feel helpless when my opponent does not approach. Even more if he has Laser...

^ please

Also another question: Is the time where you can move again after dthrow depending on the weight of the opponent?

 

[Xyzz]

Can't really say much to the first thing, I don't play much Sheik and I've always been fine dashing to the opponent with wd back fakeouts to mask my timings and then into using grab / DA at some point, but mostly hoping he'd commit to sth stupid when he sees me dashing to him, which I can punish on reaction after the WD back.
If the opponent doesn't have lasers: You've got needles
I've been told that short hopping near to him and then deciding what to do depending on his reaction works nicely as well.

The 2nd question: It's not, everything related to throws is probably answered here: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/

 

[Purpletuce]

If you're lazy: No, Sheik's D-throw is not dependent on the opponent's weight.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sheik's dash dance is incredible. I don't know how I've avoided utilizing all that movement potential thus far.

 

[joejoe22802]

It's pretty good. definitely not my neutral game go to.

 

[unknown522]

lol, I combo'd a falco player on FD yesterday with: moves -> reverse weak b-air -> upsmash

 

[omgwtfToph]

WTF. What percent was he at when you hit with the soft bair?

 

[Anand]

I spent a really long time trying to figure out what was so surprising about that combo, because I assumed it was the Fox boards.

 

[omgwtfToph]

LMAO same here

 

[unknown522]

WTF. What percent was he at when you hit with the soft bair?

he was around 110 before the b-air