Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[The Dragon]

random question, crossed my mind earlier today, does shiek get increased grab range on her jc grab. I don't think so but i figured i'd ask anyway.

 

[KirbyKaze]

her dash grab has more grab range than her jc grab slightly

so if you're comparing those then no

 

[SPAWN]

Actually most of the community isn't very knowledgeable about melee. Most people in this thread are pretty knowledgeable though.

 

[The Dragon]

her dash grab has more grab range than her jc grab slightly

so if you're comparing those then no

yah that's what i was thinking about thanks for the info

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You could use the boost grab for like triple range though =)

 

[nicaboy]

west coast smash league.

$5 is chump change, but considering you're a chump, sure

wtf so now you stoop to name callin? i have been nothing but respectful and know im a chump
well hey im sorry but its just a game i have other responsibiliteis and life then to bet high amounts of money in a game in mm. my bad
but on the real name calling is just so childish. i wonder how old are you
man im not lookin to be on the sheik boards arguing with some random guy i dot even know
so im going to ask you out of respect lets just stop talking? i dont care if you like me or not or w/e but out of respect for the boards lets just stay on topic from now on

 

[The Dragon]

You could use the boost grab for like triple range though =)

eh boost grab is really funky, i don't really like it so much... i don't ever find myself in a situation were i need that much range for a grab but to each his own

 

[Tero.]

eh boost grab is really funky, i don't really like it so much... i don't ever find myself in a situation were i need that much range for a grab but to each his own

techchase versus falcon

 

[The Dragon]

techchase versus falcon

i guess but you can tech chase him just fine with a jc grab.. shiek is fast enough.. which is what i do.. so l dunno, im with teczero on this one i dont really see a point for it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, I pretty much use the JC grab exclusively, except for chaingrabs at low percents. I use boost grab for t3h mindgames... it's just like... BOOM I just grabbed you from A LOT FARTHER AWAY THAN I SHOULD'VE BEEN ABLE TO!!

But it's pretty subtle. I still don't believe that it actually has more range. It makes me feel better though.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

techchase versus falcon

/end discussion

+ v fox and falco too

seriously, tech chase in general. you're welcome to not use it -- I don't -- but it's pretty ignorant to say things like "i guess but you can tech chase him just fine with a jc grab" or "I still don't believe that it actually has more range."

it's easier to tech chase with a boost grab. it just is.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's ignorant to arbitrarily decide that it doesn't have more range, but it's not ignorant to arbitrarily decide that it does have more range?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

But it does have more range. Even the dash grab itself has more range than the jc grab, and when you boost grab you like jump forward PLUS you get the dash grab range.

I'd get out all the Magus posts about tech chasing Falcons FROM 0 TO DEATH with boost grabs, but I would feel evil for telling so many people about how to screw Falcon over.

EDIT: You know, what the hell, let Falcon get ****ed by Sheiks all over the world.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5258166&postcount=25

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5271071&postcount=27

 

[The Dragon]

/end discussion

+ v fox and falco too

seriously, tech chase in general. you're welcome to not use it -- I don't -- but it's pretty ignorant to say things like "i guess but you can tech chase him just fine with a jc grab" or "I still don't believe that it actually has more range."

it's easier to tech chase with a boost grab. it just is.

i wasn't saying that ignorantly, i know it has more range, its called a boost grab for a reason, i just prefer to use the jc grab, maybe i stated it wrong i dunno

those are some nice links though

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I still wish there was some kinda proof. Basically, the boost grab is a boost and a dash grab, which means that the only reason it would be getting more range is from the boost, which doesn't seem like it pushes Sheik that far forward.

Or is the timing on it tighter than I thought?

I know it looks like a whole lot more with Fox.

 

[Razor]

dash attack vs turn around dash attack

Is there a difference in speed if you just dash attack facing forward as opposed to facing backwards AND THEN dash attacking?

i tried viewing it in 1/4 speed in training mode and i can't tell. From what i can see, there are frames were sheik has to turn around, however there also seems to be no start up time for the dash attack. When you face forward and dash attack, there seems to be a slight start up animation. Anyone have frame data on this?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I still wish there was some kinda proof. Basically, the boost grab is a boost and a dash grab, which means that the only reason it would be getting more range is from the boost, which doesn't seem like it pushes Sheik that far forward.

Or is the timing on it tighter than I thought?

I know it looks like a whole lot more with Fox.

It's because Fox's dash attack is a sliding sex kick along the ground.

Think about it.

Boost grab ***** Falco though if you just pay close attention to what he does. If he techs in place and you can react to it perfectly (his tech in place, no tech, etc) then boost grab gives you a lot of room for error (well, not really, but more than you'd think) for tech chasing his tech rolls, should he opt to do so.

Boost grab is really good esp vs longish tech rolls like Falco/Falcon's.

 

[Razor]

Boost grab is really good esp vs longish tech rolls like Falco/Falcon's.

wait, you think falco and cap have long tech rolls??? i really don't think so. captain's back tech roll is even shorter than his forward one lol. if you compare falcon's and ganon's it's actually quite bad for cap.

so does anyone have the frame data on the dash attack vs turnaround dash attack?

 

[Teczer0]

wait, you think falco and cap have long tech rolls??? i really don't think so. captain's back tech roll is even shorter than his forward one lol. if you compare falcon's and ganon's it's actually quite bad for cap.

so does anyone have the frame data on the dash attack vs turnaround dash attack?

Falco's tech roll can be annoying imo.

Falcon's is pretty easy to follow I dunno about their lengths though.

You can all check magus's super sexy list of all that stuff linked in the first page =D.

I have no idea if turnaround dash attack is longer or whatever. I would think turning around would take like 2 frames more of whatever.

Not sure though *shrugs*

 

[RaynEX]

It doesn't matter how long Cap's techroll is because its so **** slow anyways.

Ironically, Sheik has the most broken techroll in the game. Super length + speedy-ish.

Pichu's is lol. Fthrow with Marth and charge fsmash and there is nooo escape.

 

[Razor]

Falco's tech roll can be annoying imo.

Falcon's is pretty easy to follow I dunno about their lengths though.

You can all check magus's super sexy list of all that stuff linked in the first page =D.

I have no idea if turnaround dash attack is longer or whatever. I would think turning around would take like 2 frames more of whatever.

Not sure though *shrugs*

yeah, i checked and there aren't any frames on the turnaround. the reason i ask is because it "appears" to basically be the same speed. if that's even relatively true, then it's good news. if a spacie or cap falcon tech rolls behind you, turn around dash attack is probably the best choice since it's so fast. i looked at the turn around grab in 1/4 speed and it's RIDICULOUSLY slow. omg. that turnaround animation takes forever. you need at least decent reaction speed for that to work consistently.

also, raynex is quite right. sheik's tech rolls are amazing.

 

[The Dragon]

yeah, i checked and there aren't any frames on the turnaround. the reason i ask is because it "appears" to basically be the same speed. if that's even relatively true, then it's good news. if a spacie or cap falcon tech rolls behind you, turn around dash attack is probably the best choice since it's so fast. i looked at the turn around grab in 1/4 speed and it's RIDICULOUSLY slow. omg. that turnaround animation takes forever. you need at least decent reaction speed for that to work consistently.

also, raynex is quite right. sheik's tech rolls are amazing.

yah but if they tech roll behind you couldn't you do a wavedash back pivot grab that would be a lot faster then a turn around grab

 

[Razor]

yah but if they tech roll behind you couldn't you do a wavedash back pivot grab that would be a lot faster then a turn around grab

yeah, but the main problem i run into is that i'm just a little short of grabbing them, even with sheik's amazing reach. if you have good reaction time, then it's not a problem. but that dash attack is a better choice imho. it's longer and faster. plus, if you wavedash back too quickly, there's a chance they might tech away or in place which would result in nothing.

 

[Teczer0]

It doesn't matter how long Cap's techroll is because its so **** slow anyways.

Ironically, Sheik has the most broken techroll in the game. Super length + speedy-ish.

Pichu's is lol. Fthrow with Marth and charge fsmash and there is nooo escape.

don't remind me about pichu's....

I wanna play Pichu and I saw his tech roll....

And I was VERY saddened T_T.

 

[The Dragon]

pichu is a very sad existence in general... his forward b is amazing though... so fast, if you can actually hit someone with it that is

 

[Teczer0]

pichu is a very sad existence in general... his forward b is amazing though... so fast, if you can actually hit someone with it that is

What do you mean?

Pichu is a very happy existence imo . His goggles are top tier in costumes .

His cape is UBER spiffy too

The only happier character is Kirby =D

 

[The Dragon]

What do you mean?

Pichu is a very happy existence imo . His goggles are top tier in costumes .

His cape is UBER spiffy too

The only happier character is Kirby =D

pichu is god tier he has 2 taunts you cant beat that no matter how happy you are

 

[KirbyKaze]

pichu is god tier he has 2 taunts you cant beat that no matter how happy you are

Kirby's taunt is better than both of Pichu's combined.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yoshis >>>> kirby

 

[The Dragon]

Kirby's taunt is better than both of Pichu's combined.

LIES!! pichu has the master debater taunt, nothing beats that!

 

[KirbyKaze]

yoshis >>>> kirby

Kirby's has less lag so it's far more spammable.

 

[The Dragon]

Kirby's has less lag so it's far more spammable.

G&W has the most annoying and spammable taunt though

 

[KirbyKaze]

GaW is not happy though.

So we have conflict.

 

[The Dragon]

how can you tell, he so boxed up.. besides hes an open promoter of the more cowbell cause how is he not happy?

and to be on topic sheik is awesome... ?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Falcon's taunt is the best.

Also, what's with Falcon's tech roll? I used to think it was slow, but after looking over Magus' tech data, it doesn't seem to be especially slow or short...

EDIT: If I recall correctly, it's forty frames total and covers 16.6 ft right?

 

[The Dragon]

since you asked so nicely elven i looked it up for ya, i added all the frame and tech roll data of the other top 6 as well because i was there anyway. Edit: Magus is the man, i love that list so useful.

Falco - 40 frames
14.4 ft tech frwd
14.4 ft tech back

Fox- 40 frames
12.6 ft tech frwd
12.6 ft tech back

Cpt. Falcon - 40 frames
16.6 ft tech frwd
13.6 ft tech back

Shiek - 40 frames
16.2 ft tech frwd
16.2 ft tech back

Marth - 40 frames
15.2 ft tech frwd
15.2 ft tech back

Peach - 40 frames
15.4 ft tech frwd
15.6 ft tech back

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh, thanks =)

I dunno, yeah, looking at that information, it doesn't seem like Falcon's is any slower than anyone else's... I wonder why everyone had the impression that he had a slow tech.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Speed is distance over time. So you would have 16.6/40 feet/frames. Which is .415 feet per frame.

Do the same thing for Fox and Falco, and you get:

Falco - 40 frames
14.4 ft tech frwd => .36
14.4 ft tech back => .36

Fox- 40 frames
12.6 ft tech frwd => .315
12.6 ft tech back => .315

Cpt. Falcon - 40 frames
16.6 ft tech frwd =>.415
13.6 ft tech back => .34

Shiek - 40 frames
16.2 ft tech frwd => .405
16.2 ft tech back => .405

Marth - 40 frames
15.2 ft tech frwd => .38
15.2 ft tech back => .38

Peach - 40 frames
15.4 ft tech frwd => .385
15.6 ft tech back => .39

Out of these, C. Falcon's forward roll is actually the fastest. However, this is isn't conclusive evidence, because I'm not certain that techs are at full speed from the start, and I'm not sure how long it takes for characters to get up at the end of the roll. Also, the different character physiques may contribute to being able to identify tech rolls faster with certain characters (whether they're in place, forward, or back). This might also contribute to the illusion of Falcon having a slow tech roll.

About Boost Grabs: I tested it on Mushroom Kingdom, using the lines in the ground as measurement, and it's definitely longer than either of the other grabs. I can't give any exact values, but I'd say the difference is about the width of sheik herself.

 

[Razor]

Speed is distance over time. So you would have 16.6/40 feet/frames. Which is .415 feet per frame.

Out of these, C. Falcon's forward roll is actually the fastest. However, this is isn't conclusive evidence, because I'm not certain that techs are at full speed from the start, and I'm not sure how long it takes for characters to get up at the end of the roll. Also, the different character physiques may contribute to being able to identify tech rolls faster with certain characters (whether they're in place, forward, or back). This might also contribute to the illusion of Falcon having a slow tech roll.

wow, good work witchking and magus. that's very good stuff to know.


i also think the way a character hits the ground from the d-throw affects the "illusion" as well. captain and the spacies basically stick to the ground fast while marth and peach bounce quite high.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Like I said, I'm not too sure about all this stuff, so the best way to know for sure is to hit Magus up on AIM and ask him. All I know is that Falcon is easy to techchase for some reason.