Bil
Smash Ace
like...up+b's/side+b's...
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
The Dragon
Smash Journeyman
getting your jump taken away by a needle is like, getting punched in the kidney, doesn't matter who you are that hurts
i do have a question though, i know the tiara wearing f4gg0t (marf) matchup is suppose be in favor of shiek, howevs i can't seem to get this match up down, to put it bluntly i suck balls at it, i even have trouble on bad marths, i'll still win it just wont be pretty, tips?
i do have a question though, i know the tiara wearing f4gg0t (marf) matchup is suppose be in favor of shiek, howevs i can't seem to get this match up down, to put it bluntly i suck balls at it, i even have trouble on bad marths, i'll still win it just wont be pretty, tips?
The Dragon
Smash Journeyman
double post to bump previous question
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
All about grab game.
Simple combos from grab.
Dashattack, dtilt, ftilt (or any other setup) to fair, then edgeguard (bair, nair, needles).
Needles are pretty good
Punish attacks on your shield (mainly fsmash) with wd oos grab.
You can also CC his aerials into grab if he doesnt space perfect.
here you go
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Charge needles and throw them at him in full sets. You will shut off a lot of his DD crap and thus force him to work with his slower short hop stuff and other crap.
Grab him and then do stuff. If he DI behind you U-tilt --> combo at really low percent or Uair --> potential combo at medium percents (or Fair); at high percents you can KO with U-smash. If he don't DI do whatever; until about 15 you can do regrab but then he can jump so probably dash under him and try to catch his double jump with U-smash or simple Fair or walk forward slightly and U-tilt it depends on percent and you really can just make up whatever on this one; at high percent (83%+ - ??? probably stops around 105%ish) dash under him and U-smash. If he DI away regrab until about 30 and then do stuff, probably Dash Attack --> Fair or just Fair.
Shield a lot. WD OoS and do stuff. Shield is pretty broken at high percents because he can't kill you with a grab at high percents if you know how to DI and his KO moves are laggy and bad when used as a stand-alone so abuse that.
Your goal here is just to make him not be on the ground all the time (his DD is better than yours, his grab range is better than yours, etc) so you can make him do punishable aerials and crap. If he SHDFairs retreat you can run up to him and shield the first and then Nair/Fair OoS before the second comes out or just stalk his landing and dash attack when he lags, Sheik's dash attack is insanely good. CC into dash grabs, etc.
If he's trying to camp space and refuses to land (SHFair DJFair retreat) then charge needles. Or, alternatively, you call him for it and then do stuff.
tl;dr throw needles, make him jump and land with stuff and then punish the lag at some point, mostly with dash attack and grab. Approach with shield and spaced dash attack mostly. Spaced aerials (mainly fair but also bair if you're into that) are also acceptable.
Grab him and then do stuff. If he DI behind you U-tilt --> combo at really low percent or Uair --> potential combo at medium percents (or Fair); at high percents you can KO with U-smash. If he don't DI do whatever; until about 15 you can do regrab but then he can jump so probably dash under him and try to catch his double jump with U-smash or simple Fair or walk forward slightly and U-tilt it depends on percent and you really can just make up whatever on this one; at high percent (83%+ - ??? probably stops around 105%ish) dash under him and U-smash. If he DI away regrab until about 30 and then do stuff, probably Dash Attack --> Fair or just Fair.
Shield a lot. WD OoS and do stuff. Shield is pretty broken at high percents because he can't kill you with a grab at high percents if you know how to DI and his KO moves are laggy and bad when used as a stand-alone so abuse that.
Your goal here is just to make him not be on the ground all the time (his DD is better than yours, his grab range is better than yours, etc) so you can make him do punishable aerials and crap. If he SHDFairs retreat you can run up to him and shield the first and then Nair/Fair OoS before the second comes out or just stalk his landing and dash attack when he lags, Sheik's dash attack is insanely good. CC into dash grabs, etc.
If he's trying to camp space and refuses to land (SHFair DJFair retreat) then charge needles. Or, alternatively, you call him for it and then do stuff.
tl;dr throw needles, make him jump and land with stuff and then punish the lag at some point, mostly with dash attack and grab. Approach with shield and spaced dash attack mostly. Spaced aerials (mainly fair but also bair if you're into that) are also acceptable.
lololol i love tldr posts.
The Dragon
Smash Journeyman
tldr? what, thanks for the tips though ill put um to good use
Loto
Smash Ace
transformation canceling?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
tl;dr = too long ; didn't read
Yay for KK advice ^_^
*Takes notes*
Edgeguarding marth is like... fun =D. You can do SOOO much to him =D
*Takes notes*
Edgeguarding marth is like... fun =D. You can do SOOO much to him =D
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
Stupid Sheik players, gloating over their good match up against Marth. Good thing I play Fox too =P
Edgeguarding spacies is even MORE fun
EDIT:
Would it help if I talked about our match up vs bowser?
Spam needles and CG 0-death
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
Yeah, but at least Fox doesn't take a billion damage from a grab =P And he's got stuff he can do to Sheik too.
Oh man. Playing as Bowser against Sheik sucks. The ftilt is just... an impenetrable wall and... oh God the memories *sob*
Oh man. Playing as Bowser against Sheik sucks. The ftilt is just... an impenetrable wall and... oh God the memories *sob*
Oh yea....
fox vs sheik is pretty saddening for us sheiks.
Thank god I play fox too
EDIT: I actually don't think Sheik vs marth is so heavily in sheik's favor......
Why do people think its like 60/40 in sheik's favor?
I thinks its around maybe... 53/47 sheik's favor something like that. Or flipped depending on the stage.
fox vs sheik is pretty saddening for us sheiks
.Thank god I play fox too
EDIT: I actually don't think Sheik vs marth is so heavily in sheik's favor......
Why do people think its like 60/40 in sheik's favor?
I thinks its around maybe... 53/47 sheik's favor something like that. Or flipped depending on the stage.
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
Sheik is a nasty match up against Marth. It's a compilation of little things like ducking under standing grabs, fair launch trajectory vs Marth's lacking horizontal recovery, tilt combos... and then there's the big thing in the form of the dthrow which presents the Marth with several options, all of which can turn out very very badly.
Sixty-forty is a bit extreme, I guess... maybe 57.5/42.5? I dunno, it's an uphill battle, that's for sure.
Sixty-forty is a bit extreme, I guess... maybe 57.5/42.5? I dunno, it's an uphill battle, that's for sure.
I think sheik has a slight advantage but even still.
Sheik can't do many things unless its out of a grab or punishing terrible approaches.
Marth pros:
Marth can safely do things on shield and his DD game is pretty effective vs sheik as long as he isn't so far away.
Marth's throws, in particular upthrow presents a very large problem. He can chase her with stuff like fairs and upairs or uptilts and afford to whiff them and still be able to regrab.
His edgeguards on sheik is so simple it hurts my brain.
And Marth can CC grab almost everything sheik does.
Sheik pros:
Sheik can camp him (kinda) and periodically charge needles for fake outs.
She can punish his aerials on the ground using dash attack, ftilt, dtilt or shield grab.
Sheik can combo him well usually resulting in fairs or bairs.
She can edgeguard him pretty good with bairs, needles and lightshield hog if needed.
Maybe I missed something cuz its late *shrugs* I think its leaning towards even. I dunno >_>
Sheik can't do many things unless its out of a grab or punishing terrible approaches.
Marth pros:
Marth can safely do things on shield and his DD game is pretty effective vs sheik as long as he isn't so far away.
Marth's throws, in particular upthrow presents a very large problem. He can chase her with stuff like fairs and upairs or uptilts and afford to whiff them and still be able to regrab.
His edgeguards on sheik is so simple it hurts my brain.
And Marth can CC grab almost everything sheik does.
Sheik pros:
Sheik can camp him (kinda) and periodically charge needles for fake outs.
She can punish his aerials on the ground using dash attack, ftilt, dtilt or shield grab.
Sheik can combo him well usually resulting in fairs or bairs.
She can edgeguard him pretty good with bairs, needles and lightshield hog if needed.
Maybe I missed something cuz its late *shrugs* I think its leaning towards even. I dunno >_>
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
Yeah, that's the thing... it looks like it should be even on paper, but in actual gameplay, there just seems to be too many "Ah, crap" moments for it to be even.
I think it might be part that Sheik punishes a lot harder than Marth does. Marth's stuff on Sheik just doesn't feel as... I dunno, guaranteed, I guess the word would be?
I think it might be part that Sheik punishes a lot harder than Marth does. Marth's stuff on Sheik just doesn't feel as... I dunno, guaranteed, I guess the word would be?
I guess.....? I mean
Getting sheik off the stage isn't that difficult. Once that happens... its pretty much simple hit sheik off the stage and repeat.
I mean... unless I'm Magus and can double stick tech falcon punches at 60000% I think I'm screwed unless I get hit off at a relatively low percent.
Sheik can indeed punish worse, her game against marth while marth is airborne and sheik is grounded is about as good as marth's game against anyone airborne while he is grounded but sheik is able to guarantee more hits/dmg I think.
I mean.. Marth can't punish sheik all at once then throw her to her doom, instead he throws her off waits then beats her senselessly for landing with her up-b.
Doesn't seem that different to me tbh.
EDIT: So after reading posts more carefully and not blindly posting
I think tbh sheik has a slight advantage cuz of the slightly more guaranteed combos, like ftilt fair onto platforms into more stuff is hard to mess up.
But... its still not much.... so I guess I agree with you, but... still think the match up is more even that you think elvenarrow.
Getting sheik off the stage isn't that difficult. Once that happens... its pretty much simple hit sheik off the stage and repeat.
I mean... unless I'm Magus and can double stick tech falcon punches at 60000% I think I'm screwed unless I get hit off at a relatively low percent.
Sheik can indeed punish worse, her game against marth while marth is airborne and sheik is grounded is about as good as marth's game against anyone airborne while he is grounded but sheik is able to guarantee more hits/dmg I think.
I mean.. Marth can't punish sheik all at once then throw her to her doom, instead he throws her off waits then beats her senselessly for landing with her up-b.
Doesn't seem that different to me tbh.
EDIT: So after reading posts more carefully and not blindly posting
I think tbh sheik has a slight advantage cuz of the slightly more guaranteed combos, like ftilt fair onto platforms into more stuff is hard to mess up.
But... its still not much.... so I guess I agree with you, but... still think the match up is more even that you think elvenarrow.
Cia
das kwl
yeah Marth is sooo annoying against Sheik I just use Peach on him instead. at least he can't Uthrow her and put 60% just like that <_<
but when I do sheik v marth (as sheik) I go for grabs all the time. grabs lead to ftilt and/or Fair. charge needles for an easy 18% or edge guard. Dtilt is great for shield poking and if well spaced, marth can't shield grab it.
Marth can just grab (which is easy because it's marth) insane combo Sheik like she's Bowser or something. That alone makes the match up pretty **** close. all of that 2003 "Sheik COUNTERS Marth" logic is balls.
but when I do sheik v marth (as sheik) I go for grabs all the time. grabs lead to ftilt and/or Fair. charge needles for an easy 18% or edge guard. Dtilt is great for shield poking and if well spaced, marth can't shield grab it.
Marth can just grab (which is easy because it's marth) insane combo Sheik like she's Bowser or something. That alone makes the match up pretty **** close. all of that 2003 "Sheik COUNTERS Marth" logic is balls.
The Dragon
Smash Journeyman
lol at least there are others who understand my dilemma, i'd rather fight the spacies than marth tbh, gimping them is so much fun, anyway thanks again for the tips everyone
Drephen
Smash Master
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Maybe I need to play M2K to understand 60% throw combo but generally when I get Uthrown I just DI for the impending U-tilt/F-air and then work from that. Being hit by U-throw F-air F-air or something sucks, sure, but Sheik's combos are just as guaranteed and, IMHO, have much more edgeguard potential. Marth's throw combos can be DIed to avoid edgeguards but Marth can't say the same about yours. While it's also true he can just chuck you offstage and let you struggle to get back, that only works at the edge. In Sheik vs Marth I strive to keep myself in the middle of the stage in this particular matchup to avoid such nonsense. My combos can launch him off, his can't, thus I abuse.
Maybe I need to fight M2K's Marth to understand this better but I think my Marth experience is okay (Azen, Neo, all the Canadian Marths, etc) and this stuff seemed to work alright against them.
Maybe I need to fight M2K's Marth to understand this better but I think my Marth experience is okay (Azen, Neo, all the Canadian Marths, etc) and this stuff seemed to work alright against them.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
So Sheik vs. Marth from a Marth's perspective.
Super difficult match-up. Like 60/40 or 65/35 if the Marth has a good CC game. Like 70/30 or worse if the Marth can't CC.
Needles shut down my whole ground game and force me to be in the air a lot
Sheik can CC grab me for just about everything I do especially in the air
Ergo it's hard/impossible to approach Sheik
Sheik has needles so I have to approach
At best I can WD out of shield a lot and try to space like that but because the needles auto-cancel/Sheik has no lag in general I get ***** like that too.
Off stage... If I have to up+b (F-air > Sweet spot... ledge-tech b-airs is not a viable solution), or if you can get the ledge before I can with my jump I'm dead unless you mess up. At least Sheik can land on the very edge to cut the lag to nothing/she has options to trick me and make it back.
If the Sheik knows what DI is (this is crucial, your DI has to not suck) it's a monstrous challenge for me to even put you in a scenario where I can kill you. On the flip side... Sheik has stuff that I can't do anything about no matter how well I DI/Crouch Cancel.
Super difficult match-up. Like 60/40 or 65/35 if the Marth has a good CC game. Like 70/30 or worse if the Marth can't CC.
Needles shut down my whole ground game and force me to be in the air a lot
Sheik can CC grab me for just about everything I do especially in the air
Ergo it's hard/impossible to approach Sheik
Sheik has needles so I have to approach
At best I can WD out of shield a lot and try to space like that but because the needles auto-cancel/Sheik has no lag in general I get ***** like that too.
Off stage... If I have to up+b (F-air > Sweet spot... ledge-tech b-airs is not a viable solution), or if you can get the ledge before I can with my jump I'm dead unless you mess up. At least Sheik can land on the very edge to cut the lag to nothing/she has options to trick me and make it back.
If the Sheik knows what DI is (this is crucial, your DI has to not suck) it's a monstrous challenge for me to even put you in a scenario where I can kill you. On the flip side... Sheik has stuff that I can't do anything about no matter how well I DI/Crouch Cancel.
so essentially...sheik sucks
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
Wait VaNz, you seriously go Peach against Marth instead of Sheik? @_@
And as far as the throw off stage goes... Marth's throw doesn't really send that far, so you could realistically double jump then airdodge back onto the stage with much less lag, making it a lot harder to punish, or try to hit Marth off the edge with a double jump fair, forcing him to go onto the stage, then go for the edge.
I guess when it all boils down, a lot of Sheik's punishment does stem from the grab which can be avoided, I suppose, but that still leaves needles which suck and the fact that Sheik ducks under grabs, which really sucks because most of what Marth does to Sheik starts from a grab.
EDIT: To put things into perspective, I believe Ken and Mew2King both say that Marth has a disadvantage against Falcon, 60/40. I dunno about other Marths, but I definitely find the Sheik match up harder than the Falcon one.
And as far as the throw off stage goes... Marth's throw doesn't really send that far, so you could realistically double jump then airdodge back onto the stage with much less lag, making it a lot harder to punish, or try to hit Marth off the edge with a double jump fair, forcing him to go onto the stage, then go for the edge.
I guess when it all boils down, a lot of Sheik's punishment does stem from the grab which can be avoided, I suppose, but that still leaves needles which suck and the fact that Sheik ducks under grabs, which really sucks because most of what Marth does to Sheik starts from a grab.
EDIT: To put things into perspective, I believe Ken and Mew2King both say that Marth has a disadvantage against Falcon, 60/40. I dunno about other Marths, but I definitely find the Sheik match up harder than the Falcon one.
LooksLikePit
Smash Ace
OK. here is a question that I REALLY want to know the answer to
what makes FoD a great counterpick? How do you use the stage to your advantage? Please help
what makes FoD a great counterpick? How do you use the stage to your advantage? Please help
the sides are close...fair kills are easy
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
Yeah, that, and also the changing platforms can REALLY screw up other characters' shffls. Ever try to play as Falcon on that stage? It's painful. As long as you stay near the side with the lower platform, you force your opponent to consider that.
That being said, don't counterpick it for people you can chaingrab, because they can tech off the low platforms.
That being said, don't counterpick it for people you can chaingrab, because they can tech off the low platforms.
and it screws with falcos lasers.
you should..the low platforms really screw wtih shl...you land and shoot a blank
The Dragon
Smash Journeyman
not always, some falcos like the crazy platforms because of the height diffences, then can get really gay with lasers and pillar trixies if they know what they are doing, depends on the person, i guess. Shieks like it for the ledge canceled needles tricks you can do here really help her game a lot and her tilts go through the ledges pretty well too
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Tilts go through platforms and you can duck underneath otherwise low platform heights and do silly u-tilts if people try to hit you. The multiple platforms make it easier to recover and bolster your otherwise limited aerial movement. Multiple platforms allow many facets to chuck needles. D-throw pops spacies onto low platforms and allow more dangerous tech chases than usual; tipped U-smashes, U-tilt mixes, and F-tilts that cover the whole platform are rather ****.
Other characters, like Falcon/Fox/Falco, also lose some of their SHFFL power to a degree. Falco not as much as you'd like, however.
Fox and Falco are broken enough, though, that they're fine pretty much everywhere. So don't expect it to **** their entire game for them or anything. Shiz, Zhu, etc play Falco just fine on FoD and there are plenty of Foxes (I'm sure) who do the same.
Other characters, like Falcon/Fox/Falco, also lose some of their SHFFL power to a degree. Falco not as much as you'd like, however.
Fox and Falco are broken enough, though, that they're fine pretty much everywhere. So don't expect it to **** their entire game for them or anything. Shiz, Zhu, etc play Falco just fine on FoD and there are plenty of Foxes (I'm sure) who do the same.
KK...enough with the tldr posts
Cia
das kwl
yeah seriously, Peach can fight Marth very effectively. she can 0 - 40+ combo him which is a good start and the rest of match is just punishing his movements, throwing turnips and edge guarding.
about the 60% combo, umm teczero would know better then I would, but I think it's something like Uthrow > Utilt. Sheik MUST use second jump at this point and when she does, she will be chased. at this point, you've exausted your air maneuvering options so marth will just Utilt or Grab again and repeat the process. but with the Utilt, you don't get your air jump back so Marth will just volley you till you DI out.. LAME.
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Teco - plz upload our millions of amazing matches. especially our double sheik :]
about the 60% combo, umm teczero would know better then I would, but I think it's something like Uthrow > Utilt. Sheik MUST use second jump at this point and when she does, she will be chased. at this point, you've exausted your air maneuvering options so marth will just Utilt or Grab again and repeat the process. but with the Utilt, you don't get your air jump back so Marth will just volley you till you DI out.. LAME.
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Teco - plz upload our millions of amazing matches. especially our double sheik :]
The Dragon
Smash Journeyman
yah 0 - 60 something is about right, i got punished with this just the other day, if you miss time your jump or something and you get hit with another utilt the combo last for pretty long and is very homo but you can di and jump out of it right after the first uthrow
Europhoria
Smash Lord
You can't get combo'd from 0. Even with a single jab from the grab at 0 (which you should be mashing out of). I need you at like 2 or 3% when I grab you to do **** from u-throw with Marth.
Doing 60% or rather, 60% that leads to anything useful out of a combo really only works on a few stages anyways + you have to DI badly.
Doing 60% or rather, 60% that leads to anything useful out of a combo really only works on a few stages anyways + you have to DI badly.
soap
Smash Hero
thats good advice, sad say im guilty of this sometimes.
brickman
Smash Lord
Just run up to that marth and do something nonsensical. Shield in his face -> grab v ftilt v utilt v dsmash. Probably d smash, may as well accept that Drephen is usually right in this department.