Cort
Apple Head
did someone say Sheik vs Peach?
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
Very true, but he also invented and applied a few stuff himself.
Fair enough, I can't really judge since I'm still far from that level, but for me the matchup feels slightly in favor of peach in PAL and slightly in favor for Sheik in NTSC. (I live in Europe but I've played NTSC on some occasions, and the grab makes a huge difference wow!)
PAL: 55-45 to peach
NTSC: 55-45 to sheik
my opinions
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think peach is harder than marth but still a good matchup for us.
Well that fits with my believes.
My opinion about Marth vs Sheik would probably be..
PAL: 55-45 to sheik
NTSC: 60-40 to sheik
Also I'm having huge troubles with the fox matchup, I can win but I feel it's just so freakin hard!!!
Way harder than Peach (obviously). Got back from Dreamhack yesterday and played a few foxes, got 4stocked by Armadas fox but yeah... anyway how the hell do you approach lol.. and you have to cuz they camp the **** outta you
I always ftilt too early and they nair me, or I just run around try to get a grab then I get one 10 minutes later and wreck a stock from tech chasing, but mostly I miss and then **** combo me. Also IC WTF, played probably Swedens best IC and got 3-4 stocked with sheik but had a decent shot at winning with peach and fox (never did tho, but 1 stock), was friendlies tho but w/e.
If I had faced a good puff too I guess I might have just quit Sheik by now lol.
I've played so much sheik and still my fox, falco, falcon, peach and marth isn't all that far away in terms of skill. I'm thinking of switching, motivate me to stay please!!!
My opinion about Marth vs Sheik would probably be..
PAL: 55-45 to sheik
NTSC: 60-40 to sheik
Also I'm having huge troubles with the fox matchup, I can win but I feel it's just so freakin hard!!!
Way harder than Peach (obviously). Got back from Dreamhack yesterday and played a few foxes, got 4stocked by Armadas fox but yeah... anyway how the hell do you approach lol.. and you have to cuz they camp the **** outta youI always ftilt too early and they nair me, or I just run around try to get a grab then I get one 10 minutes later and wreck a stock from tech chasing, but mostly I miss and then **** combo me.
Also IC WTF, played probably Swedens best IC and got 3-4 stocked with sheik but had a decent shot at winning with peach and fox (never did tho, but 1 stock), was friendlies tho but w/e.If I had faced a good puff too I guess I might have just quit Sheik by now lol.
I've played so much sheik and still my fox, falco, falcon, peach and marth isn't all that far away in terms of skill. I'm thinking of switching, motivate me to stay please!!!
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sometimes just fight with your back turned. Bair and turn around F-tilt a lot. Grab whenever you can.
Crouch cancel is extremely extremely extremely crucial against Fox or he can just run a mid/high Nair on you the entire game and DD around your tilts and whatever and Nair / Nair Shine you into grabs and do **** combos so for the love of god crouch cancel and make him have to use ****ty moves like Dair that don't have priority in front of him.
If he spams spaced/timed Bairs (especially near the edge) just let him. Don't challenge unless you're super duper sure you can make your move go through his via D-smash or whatever. Sometimes just wait. Be patient. Let him mess up, or learn their pattern. Either or.
Don't approach directly, just be very patient and try to scare them into attacking you. Fake approach a lot. If they continue to camp then very surgically wait for them to jump or dash towards you and then attack the spot where they will land (or react to/predict the double jump and go after them with Uair/Bair/whatever) or aim your move at the back of their dash.
If you don't like Sheik, switch. You're probably still at the point where your other characters can make an easy transition and your placements won't be heavily affected for very long by a dedicated transfer.
Falco's easier to learn and be good with anyway.
Crouch cancel is extremely extremely extremely crucial against Fox or he can just run a mid/high Nair on you the entire game and DD around your tilts and whatever and Nair / Nair Shine you into grabs and do **** combos so for the love of god crouch cancel and make him have to use ****ty moves like Dair that don't have priority in front of him.
If he spams spaced/timed Bairs (especially near the edge) just let him. Don't challenge unless you're super duper sure you can make your move go through his via D-smash or whatever. Sometimes just wait. Be patient. Let him mess up, or learn their pattern. Either or.
Don't approach directly, just be very patient and try to scare them into attacking you. Fake approach a lot. If they continue to camp then very surgically wait for them to jump or dash towards you and then attack the spot where they will land (or react to/predict the double jump and go after them with Uair/Bair/whatever) or aim your move at the back of their dash.
If you don't like Sheik, switch. You're probably still at the point where your other characters can make an easy transition and your placements won't be heavily affected for very long by a dedicated transfer.
Falco's easier to learn and be good with anyway.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
High Nair < CC
Low Nair > CC
Your percent matters
CC D-smash or grab, whichever, usually grab is better but sometimes it's too slow and D-smash is easier to hit even if it does less
LEARN YOUR CC BASICS YOU SCRUB
Low Nair > CC
Your percent matters
CC D-smash or grab, whichever, usually grab is better but sometimes it's too slow and D-smash is easier to hit even if it does less
LEARN YOUR CC BASICS YOU SCRUB
I know I'm a scrub
Also another question, if a fox / falco is recovering low near the stage, what is the best option to edge guard them? I sometimes try dsmash lol but that obviously fails due to sweetspotting, short hop needles can be fun but doesn't really do much, I've tried run off to bair too but it sure doesn't get them killed, especially not at low percents.
Also another question, if a fox / falco is recovering low near the stage, what is the best option to edge guard them? I sometimes try dsmash lol but that obviously fails due to sweetspotting, short hop needles can be fun but doesn't really do much, I've tried run off to bair too but it sure doesn't get them killed, especially not at low percents.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
SHORT HOP NEEDLES DOESN'T DO MUCH WHAT THE **** KIND OF CRACK ARE YOU SMOKING
You hit them with them, you grab edge, you do some kind of aerial, they die. It's really routine.
If they're recovering low grab edge and do some kind of Bair, maybe ledgehop Bair, it usually works. Or do awesome ****.
You hit them with them, you grab edge, you do some kind of aerial, they die. It's really routine.
If they're recovering low grab edge and do some kind of Bair, maybe ledgehop Bair, it usually works. Or do awesome ****.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Depends on the situation.
Learn both, get good at both, pick the right one.
Learn how to fast fall when you WD offstage to grab the edge so you can snatch the edge more quickly and precisely. Do that after you get comfortable with WD to grab the edge and the needle thing though.
Learn both, get good at both, pick the right one.
Learn how to fast fall when you WD offstage to grab the edge so you can snatch the edge more quickly and precisely. Do that after you get comfortable with WD to grab the edge and the needle thing though.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I'm terrible.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Stop being modest, you pro.
Twin_A
Smash Champion
These are almost good enough to sig bro.
Question, besides f tilt and needles, whats the best thing to do against a Falcon who is spacing properly and making it a pain in the *** to grab them? (After the grab it's like being at home, but until then that ****er can move).
Tbh... you probably don't need to do much more than that... >_>
Her approaches aren't exactly amazing so... yea...
I've seen plank do SH nairs that auto cancel a few times. I also dash dance a bit vs falcon *shrugs*
Twin_A
Smash Champion
I usually just sit back and if they start building momentum I'll chuck a needle at them. I'll try out that sh nair idea. Do you have any video links so I could see exactly what you mean?
thanks
edit: Oh yeah, you're sig is ****ing hilarious
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
D-tilt is pretty good if they're not doing Dairs.
Twin_A
Smash Champion
What if they're using nair to approach? Isn't it virtually unpunishable if they go immediately into a jab?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You can cc grab the Nair.
nicaboy
Smash Champion
fox grows more and more of a pain for me. Oddly enough Im beggining to like fighting falco
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Just nair oos vs falco it raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapes
also bair sometimes
and fair from platform / waveland fair from platform / drop fair through platform
gaze deep into his eyes and gay him
i suck *** vs falco though
also bair sometimes
and fair from platform / waveland fair from platform / drop fair through platform
gaze deep into his eyes and gay him
i suck *** vs falco though
john!
Smash Hero
must resist urge to sig
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You cannot resist my powers.
^This
also I like run up shield against Falcon (or run up powershield against Falco). Against Falco I do a lot of running powershield to grab, it helps when you don't know if they like high or low lasers, or if they don't aim their lasers in general
Against Falcon I want them to nair me basically. I know that as a general rule you don't want to be stuck in your shield often but since I suck at approaching this is sometimes my best bet. I'd rather fight the shield timings and mixups than have to try and react to something I'm not confident I can react to. And my spacing sux so this helps too.
Mostly Falcons will jab > grab, jabx2 > grab, gentleman, or jab > knee > jab > knee, etc. So I'll grab after the jabs, or wait for the gentleman then go from there, or nair out of shield to interrupt the knee and get a grab (or like slap oos to immediate grab). Also if you want you can try to shieldgrab right after his aerial (probably a nair) no matter what, then CC the jab and grab it. Sometimes they'll pull a marth and nair > dashdance behind you which is scary, but if you just roll away they most likely won't get it the first time. And then it becomes a game of who can predict and adapt quicker and that's the type of game I want to play. Not patient spacing and reacting to attacks because I'm not good at that.
(Remember that if they're good they'll tend to do one type of shield pressure over another, and if they're bad you can exclude a certain number of shield pressure options and predict the correct one with good success rate. Of course after you actually see what they do you will re-analyze their style but a lot of times you can tell what they will do based on what spacing they are at or how good they are supposed to be).
Not a lot of people run up and grab you when you're running forward so this is pretty safe for the most part, especially at the beginning of the game when you need to get a feel for your opponent
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sheiks need to approach with dash cancelled ftilts more. ^_^ Walking up and ftilting is way too telegraphed ...
Against Falcon, I love randomly SH nairing.
Against Falcon, I love randomly SH nairing.
Cia
das kwl
I like Dthrowing CF. but I like not fighting him even more.Sheiks need to approach with dash cancelled ftilts more. ^_^ Walking up and ftilting is way too telegraphed ...
Against Falcon, I love randomly SH nairing.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You should play ICs against Falcon. It's such a fun matchup.
Cia
das kwl
You're officially my favorite person on this site. Officially.
unknown522
Some guy
This isn't true.
Can anyone give me ideas on how you guys fight peach with sheik? I want to hear about different strategies, though I think I am decent at the matchup.
soap
Smash Hero
i gave a bunch of my strats in a long discussion/argument with amsah i forget where
but basically i force her to the air with grounded needles and ground charge store fakeouts and stuff.
then either intercept her in the air with spaced bairs, or let her land and mix up dash dance boost grabs, a lil dash dance fake to grab, or spaced aerial over her landings (cuz she has no lag u gotta bait a move or a roll after the aerial)
main thing is to hold your ground and don't get pushed to the corner or she traps you with her wall of moves
platform camp occasionally when necessary but don't let her under you or push you to the side. control the middle is so important in this matchup (cuz unlike fox u gain no real gimping benefit playing near the edge but she can throw u off and gimp u with her gay edgeguard)
needles, bair, and grab are sheiks best tools in like every matchup imo
but basically i force her to the air with grounded needles and ground charge store fakeouts and stuff.
then either intercept her in the air with spaced bairs, or let her land and mix up dash dance boost grabs, a lil dash dance fake to grab, or spaced aerial over her landings (cuz she has no lag u gotta bait a move or a roll after the aerial)
main thing is to hold your ground and don't get pushed to the corner or she traps you with her wall of moves
platform camp occasionally when necessary but don't let her under you or push you to the side. control the middle is so important in this matchup (cuz unlike fox u gain no real gimping benefit playing near the edge but she can throw u off and gimp u with her gay edgeguard)
needles, bair, and grab are sheiks best tools in like every matchup imo
Cosmo!
nerf zelda's dsmash
tell me everything you know about the falcon matchup
soap
Smash Hero
falcon is tricky for me. can't really control him with needles cuz he jumps too far too fast.
i am no good playing patient in that matchup either, falcons are more patient than me.
i dash attack and boost grab them alot out of their dash dance and use the fear of that to push them, and generally try to push them into the edge then i can do gay stuff like nair and ftilt when they are forced to approach.
get a grab off the hit and it's usually gg
trap him in shield and they always roll out, boost grab it, if u r late on tech chase they buffer roll out alot also so just follow it
when they do the nontech smash DI the jab up trick i switch to usmash (only scar has done that to me)
i am no good playing patient in that matchup either, falcons are more patient than me.
i dash attack and boost grab them alot out of their dash dance and use the fear of that to push them, and generally try to push them into the edge then i can do gay stuff like nair and ftilt when they are forced to approach.
get a grab off the hit and it's usually gg
trap him in shield and they always roll out, boost grab it, if u r late on tech chase they buffer roll out alot also so just follow it
when they do the nontech smash DI the jab up trick i switch to usmash (only scar has done that to me)
Cosmo!
nerf zelda's dsmash
do you get punished for this a lot as sheik? don't falcons want you to commit to something like this so they can stomp you or grab you or knee you out of it or w/e
soap
Smash Hero
rofl at everything in your sig.
the way i do it is i chase them and either they run and i follow them to the corner and work my wall. or they will retreat a nair then dash away. u gotta like read their dash back and u can catch up to them with boost grabs. its really situational.
i do get stomped occasionally, but i like to think that is a bad read on my part. you are right it is susceptible to stomps and those really hurt. But if u r forcing stomps thru the prospect of a dash attack u can do simple stuff like delay your boost grab with a simple dash cancel, walk a split sec then boost grab the missed stomp.
i feel like those are the only things i can catch falcon with, cuz he just runs circles around your aerial approach, and everytime i try to tilt they forward b thru it so i like to get in their face and make them run then call something
i hate falcon mostly cuz i suck at knowing when to switch from combo DI to survival DI and my tech chasing is only mediocre. It's much easier for me to do crazy combos than to tech chase grabs so i usually go for those
the way i do it is i chase them and either they run and i follow them to the corner and work my wall. or they will retreat a nair then dash away. u gotta like read their dash back and u can catch up to them with boost grabs. its really situational.
i do get stomped occasionally, but i like to think that is a bad read on my part. you are right it is susceptible to stomps and those really hurt. But if u r forcing stomps thru the prospect of a dash attack u can do simple stuff like delay your boost grab with a simple dash cancel, walk a split sec then boost grab the missed stomp.
i feel like those are the only things i can catch falcon with, cuz he just runs circles around your aerial approach, and everytime i try to tilt they forward b thru it so i like to get in their face and make them run then call something
i hate falcon mostly cuz i suck at knowing when to switch from combo DI to survival DI and my tech chasing is only mediocre. It's much easier for me to do crazy combos than to tech chase grabs so i usually go for those
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
The falcon matchup just takes a lot of time to learn, but the more you play it the more comfortable you get reacting to his DDing and gaying him.
I'm off to work now, but in short.. as everyone says Sheiks moves > Falcons. My goal in the matchup is obviously a hit or a grab. Once you starting CCing--> grab, or ftilting through all of his nairs, they will begin to stomp more often instead. Sheik's uptilt destroys the stomp and an uptilt can usually lead to a dash attack or grab to death.
@Cosmo, I agree with the falcon's punishing your boost grabs and wanting you to do that. When I play the matchup now I hardly ever approach. Good falcon's will just DD back and then grab-->**** you for trying that. Even if it is 50-50 that isn't worth it. The whole matchup is grabs, and since both characters should 0-death out of every grab, it isn't worth it to take risks that could set them up for a grab IMO. WD back--> F-tilt to stop their approaches along with other mixups. Don't get grabbed. Will elaborate later if more informed souls haven't responded
I'm off to work now, but in short.. as everyone says Sheiks moves > Falcons. My goal in the matchup is obviously a hit or a grab. Once you starting CCing--> grab, or ftilting through all of his nairs, they will begin to stomp more often instead. Sheik's uptilt destroys the stomp and an uptilt can usually lead to a dash attack or grab to death.
@Cosmo, I agree with the falcon's punishing your boost grabs and wanting you to do that. When I play the matchup now I hardly ever approach. Good falcon's will just DD back and then grab-->**** you for trying that. Even if it is 50-50 that isn't worth it. The whole matchup is grabs, and since both characters should 0-death out of every grab, it isn't worth it to take risks that could set them up for a grab IMO. WD back--> F-tilt to stop their approaches along with other mixups. Don't get grabbed. Will elaborate later if more informed souls haven't responded
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If you're pushing with Sheik it's not a HORRIBLE idea to boost grab into their DD but you have to be careful. If they are the kind of Falcon that tries to SH or jump --> DJ a lot to dodge moves, you should not do it. If they are heavy DD camp, then it's okay.
Jumpy ones you want to make sure you crouch a lot and use your body contortions, movement, and faster moves to defend yourself. Against non-jumpy ones, you can attack them, or simply push slowly and try to make them run out of room. Obviously good Falcons don't really fall into either of these 100%, but there's usually a visible preference.
You have to be really careful against him. Unless you've figured his defenses out, such a high-commitment endeavor is not recommended, I think.
Jumpy ones you want to make sure you crouch a lot and use your body contortions, movement, and faster moves to defend yourself. Against non-jumpy ones, you can attack them, or simply push slowly and try to make them run out of room. Obviously good Falcons don't really fall into either of these 100%, but there's usually a visible preference.
You have to be really careful against him. Unless you've figured his defenses out, such a high-commitment endeavor is not recommended, I think.
soap
Smash Hero
I just don't like to wait for them