Sheik Project Custom: Making Custom Moves Fast, Easy, and Legal

[Tristan_win]

Hey everyone @ Amazing Ampharos has made a thread calling for all the characters boards to sit down and decide what 8 or 10 custom move builds would be most popular. The goal of this project is to help make custom moves a normal legal practice in smash4 tournaments. So please join me in trying to think out what would those choices be.

Helpful guide to Sheik customs

Standard Special
1. Needle storm
2. Penetrating needles
3. Paralyzing needles

Side Special
1. Burst grenade
2. Gravity grenade
3. Skimming grenade

Up Special
1. 'Vanish'
2. Gale
3. Abyss

Down Special
1. Bouncing fish
2. Jellyfish
3. Pisces


Here are my thoughts:

Sheik will need

1. 1,2,1,1
   
2. 2,2,1,1
3. 1,2,2,1
   
4. 2,2,2,1

That should cover the majority of Sheik players, everyone else that picks bouncing fish 2 or 3, needles 3, side B 1 or 3 and vanish 3 I think would know they are trying to think outside of the box and should bring their own 3ds to install their set up.

Grenade 2 or the 'gravity grenade' is just overwhelming the best option as it guarantees combo's into usmash which is sheik strongest kill move. It's next to impossible to argue for something to be better when your playing a character who has trouble killing.

We might see BF 3 in the future but as of right now I think it's unpopular. BF1 with it's decent combo into ability and follow up is hard to argue against but BF 3 could be pick though due to it adding a insane power kill move to Sheik (kills at 116% in training mode on mario from the center of the stage, compare to her next best killer which is vanish at 138%) and increase ground mobility.

So what do you guys think? Do you think Sheik will use more then just these 4 plus default?

 

[<π]

pisces is real power. I'm going to invest time into it.

I think skimming grenade is the best by far.

 

[Tristan_win]

I think skimming grenade is the best by far.

Skimming grenade is my personal favorite but the raw ability of gravity to combo into tipper usmash at killing percents can't be argue against.

So why? Why do you think skimming grenade is the best?

 

[Wasserwipf]

If we have 4 slots to fill, why not do so.
First off, I'd recommend some movesets utilizing side-B 1, since that's what people are most used to and I don't think its too bad and it works different then the other to cause it doesnt activate immediatly after you pull the string, what makes e.g ledge nade easier.
Also, I think that the different neutral B's make the biggest difference (together with BF, but the other 2 options are kinda...). So I'd say it should at least have one moveset with B3. I'd recommend 3,2,1,1. Since 1,1,1,1 is always aviable, I'd also say we could have 2,1,1,1 as well. And maybe one last using pisces for the sake of killing power, 1,2,1,3.

I do agree with your first 4 suggestions, those should work pretty well already.

 

[LinkNIvy]

I do think that people should be trying to use pisces because of its kill power. It's just super awkward to land and has a lot of lag.

 

[suarsuar]

Is Abyss, up special 3, generally not being considered because of how well the default can kill unexpectedly?

I would argue the meteor effect can be valuable when up ledge vanishing to keep an opponent at bay.

Maybe that's just me, but even playing around with the move in training mode, I found some utility to exist.

 

[Wasserwipf]

Is Abyss, up special 3, generally not being considered because of how well the default can kill unexpectedly?

I would argue the meteor effect can be valuable when up ledge vanishing to keep an opponent at bay.

Maybe that's just me, but even playing around with the move in training mode, I found some utility to exist.

It limits your recovery so much, it feels slow , and the odds of hitting seem not to be better than vanish (-gliding...).
Since Sheik is already great at edgeguarding, this move seem to rather weaken her. of course, you get one option more, but you'll loose so much cause you cant regrab the ledge as quickly to reset your everything.
Its imo the same thing as with Nade 3, it seems usful but the other options are just better when considering everything.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Both Jellyfish and Pisces are great. Jellyfish has a large vertical range which makes it a strong edgeguarding move, while Pisce's massive horizontal reach can quickly close the gap against the firing of projectiles and land a hard hit. They both hit much harder than Bouncing Fish now.

Paralyzing Needle is hard to hit against players paying attention but is very rewarding when it lands. Combos into Usmash tippers and DownB kills with ease. The default needles are still good and reliable if the Paralyzing Needle isn't doing it for you.

Abyss is usable when you're facing an aggressive offstage edgeguarder like DDD. Gale though I find not worth it.

I have to agree that the Gravity Grenade is the only SideB worth a damn.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Thanks for getting a head start on this team Sheik. I feel I should clarify what we're looking to end up with. We want up to three critical sets that represent the best overall options Sheik has that have wide utility. From there, we want to fill up to slot six with supplemental options, more niche options that may represent less popular opinions, match-up specific stuff, or even teams options. I feel for Sheik it's especially important to clarify that 1111 does not need to be included; it's available by default regardless of what pre-sets are loaded up. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 so all players will have a chance to explore all of Sheik's custom moves in the early metagame. Of course, every Sheik player I've ever known has been a technical database; I have no doubt that sorting this out will be relatively simple for you guys.

 

[Wasserwipf]

Thanks for getting a head start on this team Sheik. I feel I should clarify what we're looking to end up with. We want up to three critical sets that represent the best overall options Sheik has that have wide utility. From there, we want to fill up to slot six with supplemental options, more niche options that may represent less popular opinions, match-up specific stuff, or even teams options. I feel for Sheik it's especially important to clarify that 1111 does not need to be included; it's available by default regardless of what pre-sets are loaded up. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 so all players will have a chance to explore all of Sheik's custom moves in the early metagame. Of course, every Sheik player I've ever known has been a technical database; I have no doubt that sorting this out will be relatively simple for you guys.

If I'm understanding this correctly, we're only doing this for the WiiU Version, right? If so, what are we doing then with Slots 9 and 10? In addition, just for my understanding, why are we seperating 1-3 from 4-6 (or as I hope 3-8)? I really don't believe there will only be 3 sets that everybody is going to use, at least not with my current opinion on Sheiks customs.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If I'm understanding this correctly, we're only doing this for the WiiU Version, right? If so, what are we doing then with Slots 9 and 10? In addition, just for my understanding, why are we seperating 1-3 from 4-6 (or as I hope 3-8)? I really don't believe there will only be 3 sets that everybody is going to use, at least not with my current opinion on Sheiks customs.

Slots 1-6 are all free; it's simply a matter of presentation (it's a lot easier for people to wrap their heads around a few "main" sets and then a few extra options even if the gameplay is the same). 7 and 8 are held for 2222 and 3333 because 99% of players don't have custom moves unlocked on their consoles and will need them to actually explore what all of these moves do; in a more mature metagame, we may be able to do without, but for now people really do need them. Slots 9 and 10 are left intentionally blank; sets can be imported from the 3ds version on tournament day by players who want one of those sets that are not included, and slots 9/10 are where they'll go. This project isn't suggesting banning non-standard sets; the standard sets are there to be a time saver and convenience, and we still need space for people to be able to pick something else.

 

[saviorslegacy]

My vote for 1,2,1,1.

All I care about is gravity grenade. lol

 

[mc-clap-your-hands]

i find 1,2,1,3 to be affective,gravity grenade is just to good,its both fast and gets you a free sweet-spot up smash.i find pisces is helpful with mobilty on stages like battle feild or other platform stages and the better power can be helpful.the only place i can fine 3,3,3,3 helpful is on team battles.l have found the speed of bouncing grenade makes it helpful but of course compared to gg its just not worth it

 

[Quickhero]

How are Penetrating Needles useful? They seem to be an even weaker harass tool and you don't gain much of anything from it, unless you can combo off of it which you can't off of 1.

I personally like 1, 1, 2, 3.

 

[saviorslegacy]

How are Penetrating Needles useful? They seem to be an even weaker harass tool and you don't gain much of anything from it, unless you can combo off of it which you can't off of 1.

I personally like 1, 1, 2, 3.

It can bust shields and go through Luma.

 

[LightningLoops]

My vote for 1,2,1,1.

All I care about is gravity grenade. lol

This. I like everything about her Vanilla moveset except for her side-b.

 

[Conker534]

custom moves are dumb

 

[Absol]

It can bust shields and go through Luma.

Are you sure? I remember using them in a tournament against fumbles and they werent doing anything for me. I dont think they go through luma. Also standard needles can hit both rosalina and luma at the same time in cases when they are close together or running. not only that standard needles seem to go further. I think rising needle storm is more effective with that custom, and little to nothing else besides the shield pokes. I'll have to test it more I guess.

 

[Shucklin]

I'm finding 1211 and 3213 to be two really good sets. The side b is honestly up for grabs even though I think the bouncing one is the worst. With paralyzing needles if you land it you can almost always follow with a side smash or Pisces depending on your distance, and you can paralyze into gravity grenade at 0% if youre spaced right. I don't really like jellyfish because its hard to do the quick down-b wall recovery with it cuz it has no horizontal distance.

 

[Judo777]

I actually like original grenade also. Granted i play gravity grenade most of the time because it IS the best choice (simply due to how quickly it explodes in addition to the effect, also you can hold it out longer). But original grenade is good against fat characters because the wind can damage through shields and stuff, and they have a hard time escaping the wind.

I liked pieces at first but it doesn't seem usuable when you factor in that most of bouncing fishes kill potential arises offstage and you will kill yourself using it offstage to kill someone. Jellyfish may be usuable in select MU's although i kinda doubt it because jelly fish loses the recovery and anit juggle utility that bouncing fish brings.

I personally don't like abyss because sheik doesn't get her little bounce in her upb before dissapearing, which IMO gives it ALOT more utility for hitting difficult angles. Also if you hit someone with vanish offstage they will probably die anyway. And abyss take away our onstage use of vanish making it like a counter on a hard read. Gale I just don't like at all. I can see that it makes our recovery faster which is useful in gimping, but gale can't be canceled on stage, and we lose vanish as a kill move (which btw vanish is a great kill tool to have in your arsenal) and vanish as a recovery is already amazing.

My personal opinion is I would be hard pressed to use anything but XX11. And actually I would only recommend using (1/2 X 1 1) for almost all applications.

 

[BigHairyFart]

My vote goes for 1223

Default Needles are good
Gravity Grenade is godlike.
Gale because I want just a little more recovery buffer and don't really use Up-B to kill.
Pisces because it is basically a roll when used on the ground, but two or three times longer, just as strong as default, and has better horizontal distance when recovering.

 

[RyeSSB]

I like 1,2,1,1.
The Gravity Grenade is so much better than the stock one in my opinion.

 

[_Tree]

Could 2213 be considered an anti-keepaway set? Penetrating needles are good for getting through other projectiles, and gravity grenade is effective at getting the opponent out of their zone or camp area. Pisces could be used to get up in their face quickly and also get them away from an area they find advantageous (Villager for example)

 

[Absol]

Paralyzing Needles can give you a free hyphen usmash. You can also be mobile with platform glide and pivot glide.

I want a 3211 set.

 

[Absol]

...soooo is it too late to add a 2111 set? Blame the meta

 

[BigHairyFart]

...soooo is it too late to add a 2111 set? Blame the meta

What makes you like penetrating needles?

 

[Absol]

Shield damage?

 

[_Tree]

The sheild damage is delicious. You charge less needles with them, but it's a faster charge time than normal needles. Sure they do less damage, but I feel needles are used more for utility. Plus the quicker charge time allows for more charging in between skirmishes.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I didn't realize they did decent shield damage, that actually sounds pretty sweet.

That said, I personally wouldn't trade it for regular needles, because I like the keepaway option they bring against characters like Diddy Kong and Little Mac. Plus Air Needles>Bouncing Fish is like, god-tier for snuffing out recoveries, especially low recoveries.

 

[Absol]

I didn't realize they did decent shield damage, that actually sounds pretty sweet.

That said, I personally wouldn't trade it for regular needles, because I like the keepaway option they bring against characters like Diddy Kong and Little Mac. Plus Air Needles>Bouncing Fish is like, god-tier for snuffing out recoveries, especially low recoveries.

I'm aware, but sheik gimp game is already amazing. Add free shield pressure, coupled with her already amazing safe pressure game, makes for a nightmare.

Nonetheless a 2111 set should be added as an option.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I'm aware, but sheik gimp game is already amazing. Add free shield pressure, coupled with her already amazing safe pressure game, makes for a nightmare.

Nonetheless a 2111 set should be added as an option.

Agreed, despite what I, personally, would use, 2111 clearly has notable strengths and should be available. Especially if I learn that my opponent loves their shield, then it becomes a great counterpick.

 

[Tristan_win]

In the pass I would of made the argument that 2211 should just always be picked over it but now that my understanding of side B1 has mature a bit more I'm starting to see how useful it can really be in scenarios that side b2 can't fulfill.

I also agree. It should be.

@ Amazing Ampharos thoughts?

 

[SAHunterMech]

...3223.

I don't really use needles that often. I get that it's a critical part of Sheik's character, racking up damage and all, but I've managed without them. I much prefer potential combo setups, and being able to obtain them with two moves instead of one is definitely nice.

If you're going to use Pisces, you might as well use Gale, since using it offstage can put you in a bad spot without a recovery boost. Honestly though, being able to feint it on the ground, having this alternate method of moving around is really awesome when you're trying to mindgame someone.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Found out that air needles>bouncing fish is still a thing with penetrating needles. I'm never looking back, but now I've come to like default burst grenade, and can't decide over it and gravity grenade. Both have clear advantages and disadvantages, I feel like this will have very divisive opinions.

 

[6thShEiK]

For my custom set I use 2311. The utility of the penetrating needles helps with reducing clanking as, and the skimming grenade is a safe edgeguarding option with long range, the ability to deal multiple hits from the grenade bouncing

first post here

 

[_Tree]

Ok so with the growing push for customs in competitive play lately I think it would be best for us to arrive at a definitive answer (for the time being) for what 8 custom sets Sheik should use. I'm pretty unfamiliar with setting such things up here, but I think it would be good to have a poll on all the proposed custom sets in this thread, with the top 8 gaining the spots for what we should use (spots 9 and 10 on the custom sets are taken up by 2222 and 3333). Obviously there would be a capacity to change this in the future, but I think it would be good to have a standard in case someone (such as Amazing Ampharos) comes asking for what we should use. Thoughts?

 

[Absol]

well i think 2111, 1211, and 2211, are absolutely necessary. So we have room for 5 sets. I think these sets should be 'meta breakers' and change how sheik normally has to play.

 

[SAHunterMech]

In that case, more jellyfish please. I want some funny moveset names, on the double!

 

[SlinkySmash]

custom moves are dumb

You sound like a fun guy.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I kind of liked 1223 for a while, it feels good to use, but it's not really a critical set. Maybe it could be one of our meta breakers? Possibly replace Gale with Abyss for more diversity? Kind of spitballing here...

So we have room for 5 sets.

Wouldn't that leave us with three, assuming that 2222 and 3333 are present on a setup?