Sheik Project Custom: Making Custom Moves Fast, Easy, and Legal

[Ping Warrior]

In flight after. I never hit during paralysis. Maybe I did something wrong trying to land the Up Smash. In that case, we might be able to stack some % before we hit! that's super situational, but helpful nonetheless. Every % counts!


Btw, for Penetrating Needles, 4 will always break shield, 3 will if it's been up for more than 1 full second. Also, landing one fully-charged stack sets up for shield poking immediately after. If you can afford the risk, a tomahawk mixup could be using Penetrating Needles since tomahawking is used to bait a shield.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I've been testing for like 20 minutes and I get it almost every time. Does 19% damage total assuming raw U-Smash. I usually get it to 20% because there's just enough time to charge the U-Smash that much.

 

[Ping Warrior]

@ BigHairyFart we're in the same city btw, I've seen you at DI or Die and KC Classic. You're really good, man. Amazing Ampharos, the guy who started the customs threads actually goes to KC events too. Kinda cool seeing you on the boards man. Keep up the good work!

 

[BigHairyFart]

@ BigHairyFart we're in the same city btw, I've seen you at DI or Die and KC Classic. You're really good, man. Amazing Ampharos, the guy who started the customs threads actually goes to KC events too. Kinda cool seeing you on the boards man. Keep up the good work!

Yeah, I remember seeing you around in the brackets when I was calling the KC Classic. I've met and played Chris a couple of times, too, but I'm not sure if we've formally met yet(I have a hard time putting tags to faces to names).

EDIT: What is this "Gale-Cancelling" you mentioned a few posts ago?

 

[Ping Warrior]

Gale-Cancelling is where with Gale, Sheik can teleport right above the ground and land without lag. I'm not very good at it, but if we can figure out the limits of that tech, we'd have a dangerous tool for movement. If it can be done on the ground, it'd be really strong

 

[Ping Warrior]

Unfortunately, Abyss cannot viably be used to plank. Every so often, I would get it to plank farther into the stage (about 1/4 of FD), but a lot of the time, I would either hit next to the ledge onstage, or would barely go offstage and float a little, the same way Mewtwo does, causing me to SD

 

[Ping Warrior]

Even more info on how to make Para needles useful!
On stages with low-ish platforms (Smashville Kreygasm) Sheik can Needle Glide onto the ground to play some tricks.
It's useful for being aggressive when returning to the stage from the platform, attacking someone below the platform with an almost certain kill setup, and more
If they're under the platform assaulting your shield, runoff - B reverse Needle puts you in a good position to do basically anything, and they're not likely to shield against you "running away"
If you're off the main stage and you time it right, you can land near the ledge and do it, it works to edgeguard from the air, all in all, a useful way to use the move and be surprising. Even better, because the move has a really weird startup time and landing properties by comparison to the other needles, it should be able to throw people off like crazy.


Some cons about the move though
If you throw the needle while they're RIGHT next to Sheik, it misses. The hitbox starts slightly away from her.
It has less range than ZSS's stun gun

Also Abyss is pretty useful for landing early kills that they won't expect.
Only real problem is the range and you're in that startup where Sheik isn't invincible for longer.
But she can't be Footstool'd/ZSS Flip Jump'd out of it.

Oh and Para Needle up close is a true combo into standing grab if you're next to them.

My thoughts on custom movesets

1. 3231 (My personal set for Para needle, Gravity Nade, and Abyss feels pretty solid)
2. 2211
3. 2111
4. 1211
5. 2311 (I like skimming grenade sometimes. It knocks them almost completely sideways as an easy gimp option)
6. 2221 (Gale)
7. 2313 (Zone them with projectiles and defensive play, then nuke them with Pisces for the finish)
8. 3213 (Kinda like the above, but you use Pisces to finish with aggressive play and Pisces combos from the Paralysis Needle pretty well)
9. 1221 (Gale + Normal Needles + Gravity Nade. Pretty useful)
10. 2331 (Super hard pressure until they're at the ledge, then end it with Abyss)

Any suggestions or criticisms with these Custom Sets?
Anyone else think Para Needle or Abyss could see use in tournament?

 

[Illuminose]

Whenever this project is updated, I think this is a pretty good list of customs sets:

1211
1311
2211
2311
1213
2111
3211
3213
1231
1221

Less Penetrating Needles sets, more normal sets. Not that many Sheiks use Penetrating Needles as they really are just worse in most matchups. They are lacking in range, which makes Sheik's needle zoning less effective as a whole, and they don't combo into bouncing fish. Their shield pressure is pretty cool, but the lessened range is really significant in neutral and for edgeguarding, and losing a reliable kill option isn't fun for Sheik. Furthermore, needles taking longer to charge can actually be a positive as Sheik's needle techs (which are insanely good) become ineffective when needles charge so quickly, so having fully charged needles becomes more probable/common.

Grenade changes are the most common and most effective. As a result, 1211 and 1311 are the most important sets. Penetrating Needles are probably the second most-used custom (they're still pretty rare, but more common than other things), so having 2211 and 2311 to encompass both grenade variations makes the most sense. 1213 is for the occassional Pisces user as probably the best set. The remaining sets really aren't that important but there's a few things that can be included I suppose. 2111 is for Penetrating Needles users that want to use the Burst Grenade (possible considering that the metagame for the move has matured).

Paralyzing Needle does have some potential although it's mostly a meh move all things considered because, although it does have some interesting applications due to the stun, it removes Sheik's powerful projectile zoning option, which is useful in pretty much every matchup. Its range and start-up are also huge turn-offs. However, for those who enjoy its applications and want to use it, 3211 and 3213 make the most sense. They have the best/most common Side B (Gravity Grenade), with one set for Pisces because Paralyzing Needle -> Pisces is a potent kill option if you can manage to land a paralyzing.

The issue with the Up B variations is primarily that vanish is so good. It's a key component of Sheik's kill options, being the only thing that makes air dodging against Sheik, especially out of down throw, a real risk. It's a strong kill option at that, something that Sheik needs. You can even run up and vanish on a spot dodge read or simply catching the opponent off guard if you're struggling that much to kill or have a confident read with the ability to land laglessly. Vanish also has useful ledge stalling potential. Abyss's spike is interesting, but it's awkward to connect with, and the lack of hitbox on start-up, long start-up, and lessened distance make it a mostly inferior option. Gale's lack of a hitbox is not made up for by its speed and Gale-canceling (which isn't exactly some amazing thing although it's pretty cool). For their pros though it's worth having a set for each, 1231 and 1221 being the most solid options.

 

[BigHairyFart]

These look pretty solid. I'd be perfectly okay with these sets being in the next update.

 

[Illuminose]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but full hop rising Penetrating Needles -> Pisces is actually a thing. From some preliminary testing it true combos from 90-125% by performing the combo as given. I figured out that it can actually work until 150% on Captain Falcon, though, by incorporating a jump before using bouncing fish. 2213 for a set in the next update maybe? idk.

It also appears that the distance from which you perform the full hop rising penetrating needles can make it easier or harder to follow up. I'm not really sure of an exact measuring unit I can use, but I was getting far enough that I could still connect with needles, but only 1-2 needles could connect. This made is easier to connect penetrating needles -> pisces as percent increased. It has to do with how much bkb and kbg penetrating needles have; they start to send the opponent significantly further away, which makes incorporating a jump or extended bouncing fish critical. At 120%, by extending bouncing fish, I was able to get full hop rising penetrating needles -> bouncing fish on Captain Falcon. I was able to get the same combo by incorporating a jump until about 140%. Super light/small characters like Kirby are more difficult to combo and heavies aka big hurtboxes are really, really easy.

Just stuff from trying to see what I could do with needles -> bouncing fish with penetrating needles because it always seemed a bit off/finnicky to me.

 

[Illuminose]

Sorry for the double post but I've got some more stuff, I've been doing some custom move research as I'm trying to put together a sort of primer/analysis on Sheik's customs. Some of this info might be known, idk but I'll include it regardless.

Jellyfish

Apparently Jellyfish actually has two versions (I haven't seen this info like anywhere, might be already noted idk).

- On grounded opponents, it deals 18% damage. The first hit does 7% with fixed knockback such that it true combos into the second 11% hit. The second hit sends the opponent behind Sheik and kills Mario at 100% from the center of FD (no DI/rage tested in Training Mode with CPU on Control).
- On opponents that are in the air, the first hit deals 10% damage and has massive horizontal knockback, sending the opponent in front of Sheik (similar to normal bouncing fish). I killed a Mario that was in the air by the ledge with it by the ledge at 75% in training mode. 75%.

You can easily recover off-stage if you use this move. You can even do it slightly under ledge height so long as you double tap B to make the second hit come out quicker and you have your double jump. You don't really die off-stage when using this move at all. This combined with the fact that hitting opponents in the air sends them toward the blastzone and kills early makes this move a much more lethal option than bouncing fish for edgeguarding. You can even bouncing fish into the stage and choose to grab the ledge or cover low recoveries if you hold down to avoid grabbing the ledge, still making it back if you have your double jump.

Foward throw -> Jellyfish appears to be a thing. I tested with someone online with two tests on Charizard, one DI away + mash air dodge and the other DI way + mash jump. It's inescapable for Charizard at 0%. Even Jigglypuff can be hit by this combo unless they DI away, which only seems to work for light characters. The person I tested with might have been messing up, idk, but I don't think is escapable. Frame 3 nairs would be bypassed I imagine because Jellyfish goes over them. Needs more testing, this is just preliminary.

Couple other miscellaneous things. The move autocancels from double jump height and you can jump well before landing (not full hop height unfortunately, but ehh w/e). If you extend it fully, the distance it covers is just barely under that of a normal bouncing fish, which is fine horizontal distance. Unfortunately no fair/nair confirms that I'm aware of. In general though, I'm actually interested in investigating this move more now tho. Issue still is that it's kinda slow on start-up and there is lag if you miss, but I still think there's potential with the move.

Gale Cancelling

Just a bit more info on this because it's only been described vaguely. It appears that the window for inputting Gale and landing laglessly is similar to the window for air dodging to lag cancel needles though a bit more lenient. Just for people who wanna try it out (I still think this move is utter **** lol).

Abyss

Abyss autocancels at all downward facing diagonal angles but only autocancels at upward facing diagonal angles that are less than 45 degrees for some reason...not really sure why and it's probably not that useful, but there's that I guess lol.

Penetrating Needles

If you extend bouncing fish, you can still get full hop rising Penetrating Needles -> bouncing fish at percents where you want it (aka it can kill). Got it on Falcon from 90-125%, which is really good. I actually got it up to 140% by jumping before using bouncing fish, which works because Sheik can act more quickly out of a full hop rising Penetrating Needles than full hop rising default needles.

Paralyzing Needle

Full hop rising Paralyzing Needle has slightly more range than normal rising needles and true combos into bouncing fish/Pisces.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Ok a setup I never knew about before that was used by gsm VoiD is 2111, which is penetrating needles only.

The point behind it is that you can force people to shield with the regular grenade then throw penetrating needles which will actually break their shield. This is something amazing that I've never knew before tbh, made me think better of penetrating needles.

 

[Illuminose]

So after thinking about the customs research and recent things I've observed/tested, I have a different list. One of the trickier things is that I think Burst Grenade is the best choice, and many Sheik players have shown this. Burst Grenade has edgeguarding utility, a potent ledge trap that allows you to cover multiple options and force options from the ledge, a windbox that pulls opponents in and always confirms into bouncing fish. Furthermore, you can pressure opponents into shielding and grab them for it, giving Sheik a fairly solid way to set up her grabs as far as mix-up options/setups go. Gravity Grenade can be DI'd and causes Sheik to lose out on a really useful edgeguarding/pressure option in exchange for a tool that you're not likely to be landing in neutral vs any good player, so actually confirming kills with it is going to be very rare. There's nothing lingering or delayed; you either land or you don't, and that's kinda bad because you don't really land raw grenades. So, more sets with default grenade and less sets with Gravity Grenade.

After watching VoiD (the Hawaiian Sheik), I've gotten some more appreciation for Penetrating Needles. VoiD uses them so well. He actually uses them in his throw combos and gets more damage/stun before following up. He also has the sick Penetrating Needles + Burst Grenade shieldbreak setup. How fast they charge is a really big factor because you can charge them off-stage or while landing in disadvantage and fully charge them before having to cancel/land. This is actually really important and something I think has been overlooked. 2111 is the biggest takeaway from this.

2111
1211
2211
1311
1113
2213
1112
3211
1231
1221

2111 is just Penetrating Needles. Allows for the Penetrating Needles + Burst Grenade setup and in general lets you keep all of the useful Burst Grenade features. 1211 is just Gravity Grenade, which is still probably Sheik's second best custom and is generally well-liked. 2211 rounds out those sets as a combination of Penetrating Needles and Gravity Grenade. These 3 sets combined with default probably cover, like, 99% of Sheiks and there's not really much else to say. With that I designed the remaining sets with each of Sheik's other niche customs in mind. With that, players who want to use Sheik's more obscure customs for whatever reason have the option to do so if they desire. With that, there's 1311, a Skimming Grenade set, which is a decent alternative if you prefer extra range on grenade. Pisces is one of the more popular alternative options for Sheik if you could consider any of them popular. 1113 is for players who enjoy default Sheik but want to use Pisces, 2213 is a more customs-oriented set with Penetrating Needles to combo into Pisces (works for a long time due to the knockback of the needles). Gravity Grenade is mostly to provide a Gravity Grenade option if you like it and want to use it with Pisces. 1112 is default Sheik with Jellyfish, pretty simple. 3211 is for one Paralyzing Needle set; Gravity Grenade is used because it can actually be used as a follow-up for Paralyzing Needle depending on percent/range. Last two sets are for the custom Up B alternatives. Gravity Grenade is included because that seems to be the overall preference of the players who want to use Gale/Abyss itt.