Sheik Project Custom: Making Custom Moves Fast, Easy, and Legal

Absol

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I kind of liked 1223 for a while, it feels good to use, but it's not really a critical set. Maybe it could be one of our meta breakers? Possibly replace Gale with Abyss for more diversity? Kind of spitballing here...


Wouldn't that leave us with three, assuming that 2222 and 3333 are present on a setup?
**** man i dont know, im just an Absol
 

Amazing Ampharos

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2222 and 3333 are no longer necessary to include. We need to lock in 10 sets for EVO by March 27, but my goal is to have everything together by March 17 (so we have 10 days to deal with unexpected setbacks; March 27 is a totally non-negotiable deadline no matter what comes up). Sheik's current sets in the project are:

1211
2211
1221
2221
3211
1213

I sense 2111 as well as Skimming Grenade sets are the most important things to add (likely 1311 and 2311). I'm unsure what a 10th set would be or if any of those six sets above should be replaced by other stuff while we're at it.
 

suarsuar

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Oh my Christ.

2211 is for me.

I've been reading posts in this thread and I have to say we each truly have a different take on Sheik.

At high level play if you don't use needles, you're not going to get far.

If you don't use Vanish to kill, you're not creative enough.

I find that that 2211 achieves such an impressive level of versatility and hype.

Penetrating Needles are not to be ignored. It works with Bouncing Fish so that's a plus.

But people, the shield pressure.

F-tilt on shield, full set of Penetrating Needles, retreat, and one more Penetrating Needle and the shield is broken.

When have you ever broken shields with Shiek?

Each needle hits for 2, that adds up believe it or not.

The fact that they have to side step, shield, or take the full 3 needles is a win for us 2/3s of the time. I wish casinos had those odds tbh.

Do you know people that will always side step needles?

You can condition them to not shield, run up to them and Vanish right in time for their side step to return.

And I can't stress enough, as the rest of the board has, how great Gravity Grenade is.

It spikes on edges.

It guarantees tipper up smashes.

It sends an opponent into running grabs.

In any case, I ignored custom moves until I learned about these things.

We have to take advantage of these things.
 

DunnoBro

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2211 is pretty much an overall superior sheik, that's for sure.

However, I like how customs aid her in some matchups.

Jellyfish lets her actually get throw combos on floatier characters. (Like jigglypuff)

And pisces is a better general anti-camp and long-range punish. It also seems to be a consistent final hit to break shield after penetrating needles since it goes so far, and fast, though I'd only recommend considering this option for short, difficult to hit characters that you kind of have to needle camp to begin with. (Olimar, Pikachu, etc) Otherwise your mix-up game will be weaker due to no bouncing fish.

Though gale is pretty bad honestly, with no hitbox, people will not be afraid to edgeguard you at all. Also, the slower execution yet with a hitbox actually saves you from things like DHD's can, or Sonic's spring, which negate the hitboxes of the other moves.

That coupled with it being an actually usable kill move (something sheik really needs) I don't think gale is worth using. With bouncing fish, sheik is pretty much making it back each time anyway. This will just help with footstools and stage spikes, which are very avoidable. (and only favor gale in the minority of situations)

You can also paralyzing needle > pisces consistently, however since it's just one needle, it's hard to hit with, easy to shield, and this combo doesn't even kill consistently. I much prefer the shield pressure method.

I personally believe sheik is possibly in the running to be the best character with customs on.
 
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Absol

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I like Amphoras idea of adding 1311 and 2311 to incorporate skimming grenade into the mix.

My last few ideas are to just make a Time Out sheik that just revolves around full harassment, Gale is a good get away option, and plain needles are just annoying in general. Skimming grenade can also out zone, while burst grenade is better for defense encase they're going for grabs.

So my ideas for the final two are 1321, and 1121. You wont have a fun time getting a K.O, but neither will your opponent.
 

PhantomTriforce

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My favorite sets are 1231 and 1211. As long as bouncing fish is still there as a recovery option, I don't think having Abyss as your up b is that bad. I rarely die because my up b cannot reach far enough.
 
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Bonds

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I'm going to come in here with the unpopular opinion that skimming grenade is best grenade, and gravity is probably the worst.

What gravity grenade provides for sheik assuming it hits is undeniably really good, but the move itself is unbearably laggy. Any character with a decent dash speed can pretty much just run through burst and gravity grenades and hit us in neutral, and when gravity is used in a situation where it is likely to hit, it doesn't actually provide us with the upsmash reward. (Those situations being when sheik is offstage grabbing the ledge and when the opponent is offstage trying to recover)

Burst grenade has the same problems, but when the opponent is trying to recover it has a much higher chance of actually scoring the kill, and even when it doesn't, it tacks on significantly higher damage.

I think skim grenade is the best of the 3 because it's much harder to punish, has hitboxes out almost immediately, and travels across the ground. It's sort of like a more committed laser that cuts off approach options from the ground temporarily; unlike the other two, characters can't just dash through it and grab or dash attack us when we use it, making it a much more viable option in neutral. It's useful in the same sense that floaty star bit and sm4sh falco lasers are because it cuts off a lot of options for ground based characters. While the reward for landing the explosion isn't very high, that isn't the point of using this custom.

Also, it doesn't hurt that skimming grenade completely annihilates luma. Ampharos and I played a few games on thursday and he wasn't able to absorb it with gravity. Since luma can't shield, it just carries him offstage and he dies.

I think 1311 and 2311 are probably our best sets.
 
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suarsuar

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Wow.

I didn't think skimming grenade was that useful but you bring up very insightful points.

Do you think it improves the Diddy match up @ Bonds Bonds ?
 

Bonds

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I don't think it's good against diddy, no. It'll destroy banana traps if he's trying to hide from us, but diddies like to autocancel their fairs to approach and cut off space and that option solidly beats skimming grenade while either hitting us or closing the gap.

It's another somewhat noncommittal gimp option we have on him though, so I'd look into using it to hit him out of monkey flip if he tries to recover to the ledge. This is good because the skim hits him into the explosion which has a tragic kb angle for people who are trying to recover. It could force him low into a nair gimp in theory.

I think it's a good tool against more ground based characters with its uses against everyone else, and is uniquely amazing against rosalina because luma just dies and she can't use gravity to null it. I haven't had much experience using it against other characters yet so I can't really say outside of that.
 
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BigHairyFart

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Okay, so I actually have no idea how skimming grenade actually works. Anybody care for a (quick) summary on it?
 

Bonds

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It skims.

Sheik throws it on a longer chain than the other two grenades and it moves faster. Every time it bounces it refreshes a hitbox that does 2%, and it bounces a lot, very close to the ground. When you pull the pin it blows up and does like 5% with decent kb that sends them straight backwards.

It's a constant moving hitbox on the ground, hence being effective against ground based characters and luma.
 
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PhantomTriforce

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So I have found out that it can be pretty easy to gimp characters with no or minimal hitbox on their recovery with Abyss. These characters include (Dark) Pit, Rosalina, Duck Hunt, Olimar, ROB, Sonic, Mega Man, and potentially (Dr) Mario, Luigi, Falcon, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Mr. Game & Watch, Bowser Jr., and Villager. I might not use Abyss against all these characters but it can be pretty effective against them.
 

Jaxas

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I'm going to come in here with the unpopular opinion that skimming grenade is best grenade, and gravity is probably the worst.

What gravity grenade provides for sheik assuming it hits is undeniably really good, but the move itself is unbearably laggy. Any character with a decent dash speed can pretty much just run through burst and gravity grenades and hit us in neutral, and when gravity is used in a situation where it is likely to hit, it doesn't actually provide us with the upsmash reward. (Those situations being when sheik is offstage grabbing the ledge and when the opponent is offstage trying to recover)

Burst grenade has the same problems, but when the opponent is trying to recover it has a much higher chance of actually scoring the kill, and even when it doesn't, it tacks on significantly higher damage.

I think skim grenade is the best of the 3 because it's much harder to punish, has hitboxes out almost immediately, and travels across the ground. It's sort of like a more committed laser that cuts off approach options from the ground temporarily; unlike the other two, characters can't just dash through it and grab or dash attack us when we use it, making it a much more viable option in neutral. It's useful in the same sense that floaty star bit and sm4sh falco lasers are because it cuts off a lot of options for ground based characters. While the reward for landing the explosion isn't very high, that isn't the point of using this custom.

Also, it doesn't hurt that skimming grenade completely annihilates luma. Ampharos and I played a few games on thursday and he wasn't able to absorb it with gravity. Since luma can't shield, it just carries him offstage and he dies.

I think 1311 and 2311 are probably our best sets.
...huh.

Gonna have to check this out; since we're switching to Customs: ON this week I've been testing Sheik's a bit more, and I really wasn't seeing any practical use to gravity grenade outside of catching recoveries that you aren't quite fast enough to reach the landing point of with a Tipper Usmash, or maybe stage spiking low recoveries that somehow didn't dodge it.

This sounds really useful, though; gonna go play around with it for sure.
 

John12346

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Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1211 2211 1213 2213 1311 2311 2111 1313 2313 1131

There isn't much to say here. Sheik doesn't have a lot of Custom Specials to work with, so I made sure she had the essentials and tried to work in a bunch of niche sets based on what you guys were talking about. The only set that seems to be absent from your discussions here are ones involving Jellyfish. I don't think anyone really wants that one, but just in case I figured I'd ask about it.

There are also a good amount of sets revolving around Skimming Grenade. I understand it has some neat uses, but make sure you guys are okay with committing that many sets to it. Maybe you want to trade it out for some other UpB combinations, for example. Just some food for thought.
Sheik:
1/2, 2, 1, 1/3 and niche X1XX, X3XX and XX3X sets
1211 2211 1213 2213
Niche: 1311 2311 2111 1313 2313 1131
Note: Do you want a 1212 Jellyfish set for floaties?
 
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BigHairyFart

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What exactly is Jellyfish good for? Like, where in a string would you use/want it over Bouncing Fish, or even Pisces.
 
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PhantomTriforce

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Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1211 2211 1213 2213 1311 2311 2111 1313 2313 1131

There isn't much to say here. Sheik doesn't have a lot of Custom Specials to work with, so I made sure she had the essentials and tried to work in a bunch of niche sets based on what you guys were talking about. The only set that seems to be absent from your discussions here are ones involving Jellyfish. I don't think anyone really wants that one, but just in case I figured I'd ask about it.

There are also a good amount of sets revolving around Skimming Grenade. I understand it has some neat uses, but make sure you guys are okay with committing that many sets to it. Maybe you want to trade it out for some other UpB combinations, for example. Just some food for thought.
Sheik:
1/2, 2, 1, 1/3 and niche X1XX, X3XX and XX3X sets
1211 2211 1213 2213
Niche: 1311 2311 2111 1313 2313 1131
Note: Do you want a 1212 Jellyfish set for floaties?
I honestly think default side b (Burst Grenade) should never be used. So if that last set is made 1231 to include Gravity Grenade, it would be much better. I like to use 1231 a fair bit too.
 
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Jaxas

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Random note, but is there ever a use for Burst Grenade -> Piercing Needles? Pretty sure you can true 'combo' (during blockstun) BG into needles, and that's a guaranteed shield-pop.

Obviously this requires them shielding a grenade, and that's almost certainly the downfall, but could this be useful in any MUs? (Is there anyone who lives off of slowly walking forward and shielding or something?)


Also, what is our best way to punish a shield-pop? If it's the same as rest then apparently it's chucking a grenade just over them and then using BF while they're getting blown up; is there an better one (or one that works on characters too tall to just chuck a grenade over)?
 

John12346

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If the key here is to only pair Burst Grenade with Piercing Needles, then you can narrow down the sets like so:

2, 1, 1, 1/3 = 2 sets
1/2, 3, 1, 1/3 = 4 sets

Giving you a grand total of... 6 sets. What's important here is how much you want to work Skimming Grenade, as well as the other two UpB customs(which some Sheik players do seem to hold some stock in) into your sets. They all seem to have some interesting uses, so I can imagine the remaining discussion should deliberate how to allocate these specials to the remaining custom move setups.
 

Bonds

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As long as 2311 gets in, I'm happy personally. No longer a fan of normal needles over penetrating since I started forcing bad decisions by depleting shield health. I don't think either of the up special customs are worth pursuing because default vanish has so much raw killpower and destroys airdodges. I don't think what we have to gain from either of the custom up specials quite makes up for losing that.
 
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BigHairyFart

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What's the point of running Pisces? It's laggier than Bouncing Fish, and the extra mobility isn't something that Sheik needs with her high dash speed.
Horizontal recovery to the max. More killpower(?) not sure on that. Getaway options. Completely turns the tables on careless edgegaurders.

There's nothing horribly wrong with using Pisces, it's just a little niche. I feel like enough people have brought it up that it deserves to be included in at least two sets. Possibly 2213 as a general 'add Pisces to our best set,' and then one other. Maybe combine it with Gale?
 

BigHairyFart

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Okay so our deadline is in two days(probably less because of time zones). What are our sets looking like right now? Seems like 2111, 1211, and 2211 are the only ones that everybody seems to agree with. Default grenade shouldn't be totally ignored, and quite a few people are liking skimming grenade, too. I feel like Sheik could use an anti-camper set, something like 1213 or 2213. We need to get our final decisions in quick.

EDIT: Double post, my bad.
 
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Bonds

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I don't like pisces because it can make us sd if we edgeguard with it. Bouncing fish has so many applications that I find it hard to see the appeal. Why do you guys like it?

Also, why do we need a set to deal with people camping us when sheik is already so good at rushdown? Furthermore, if we want a set like that in the first place, I think we should note that penetrating needles is counterproductive to that since they don't have very much range.

So in addition to default, we have:

2111
1211
2211
1213
2311
1311

These are what make sense to me personally. With these, we also have 4 more sets to explore potentially viable options like Jellyfish (vs floaties), Paralyzing Needles (only in combination with pisces since they supposedly combo), default grenade, and either of the upb customs. Abyss is really bad, so I think our additional sets should be:

3213 (paralyzing needles to pisces kill setup)
2212 (standard with jellyfish for extra potential combos on floaty lightweights)
2312 (same as above, but with skim for the rosalina MU)
2231 (standard set with a meteor in abyss)
maybe 2221 as well (standard with extra recovery in gale

Thoughts?
 
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BigHairyFart

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That looks about perfect to me. But I have yet to see how Jellyfish is good for floaties. Not saying that it shouldn't be in, I just want to know how one would use it.

Also, I would recommend moving 2211 to the first slot, since most people will be using that one.

And anybody NOT in favor of the list just posted need to speak up NOW.
 
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PhantomTriforce

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I thought having one set with Abyss would be good, but if no one else uses Abyss then I guess I'll have to live with it.
 

BigHairyFart

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2312 could be 2332 for the Rosalina MU, since she doesn't have a hitbox on her recovery Abyss would be a good choice.
 

PhantomTriforce

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Yes, I really like using it against Rosalina, the Pits, Duck Hunt, Olimar, ROB, and potentially Villager since none of them hat hitboxes on the up B. Though I believe Jellyfish is good for nothing and Bouncing Fish could be much better. And especially against Rosalina, Gravity Grenade would be better because it could be harder to react to for Gravitational Pull. 2231 or 1231 would be ideal.
 
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BigHairyFart

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Replace 2221 with 2231 then? It's not like Sheik ever really has trouble making it back to the ledge, plus the up special remains a kill move, just in a different(but more reliable) way.
 

PhantomTriforce

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Yeah, that's pretty much my point too. With Bouncing Fish, Sheik's recovery isn't that big of a concern for me. I hope others are ok with a 2231 set.
 

BigHairyFart

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Played with that set myself for a bit, and I can definitely see it's potential. I just couldn't make it work for me since the AI does nothing but powershield and airdodge everything you do by input reading. But i still really like this set as a counterpick for Rosalina and Villager.
 

Bonds

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Replacing 2221 with 2231 then. I personally think abyss is really bad due to startup lag, but it doesn't really hurt to give it a set. It does make some sense vs rosalina because her recovery doesn't go very far vertically.

I don't know how you use jellyfish either since I'm completely dedicated to bouncing fish, but some people swear by it being good vs floaties, so I thought I'd give it a mention.
 
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BigHairyFart

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Perfect, then we're all set? I think we've pleased just about everybody we can.

Great job guys, now put our customs on stream and prove that customs are a good thing.
 

?.?

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Eh I'm just gonna run default sheik anyways so whatevs :p
But good job guys this was a lot of serious discussion and it turned out really well!
 

_Tree

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I'm glad to see there was at least one set with Para needle. Now my testing won't go to waste : P

But good job guys this was a lot of serious discussion and it turned out really well!
Preach. Let's see how Sheik will go.
 

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edit: nevermind :o
 
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DunnoBro

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ChuDat showed me something pretty cheesy with pisces. When sheik goes for a ledge trump, if they buffer a roll she can catch that instantly with a ledge jump into pisces. So sheik can cover all the standard options if she times a ledge trump right.

It also makes sheik a pretty potent ledge camper, since it's very scary trying to edgeguard her now since the hit is inward.

He really likes it against characters difficult to combo/edgeguard like villager, rosalina, etc. Though against combo food characters he seems to prefer bouncing.
 
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