Sheik Project Custom: Making Custom Moves Fast, Easy, and Legal

[Coffee™]

So it kinda sucks that no sets have Gale and this stuff is already locked in for EVO. There was so little discussion...

 

[BigHairyFart]

Well, then you should have said something. If you don't contribute, you can't complain that it didn't turn out the way you would have liked.

 

[Coffee™]

Well, then you should have said something. If you don't contribute, you can't complain that it didn't turn out the way you would have liked.

Trust me...If I would have seen this thread and knew about the deadline I would have said something. Half these sets are pretty redundant. It's just that for how important these sets are and how much people they're going to impact at EVO there just seems like there wasn't enough involving discussion.

 

[Bonds]

I mean, I tried to reboot discussion by posting those (mostly) throwaway sets, but it didn't reignite whatever spark was going on before.

We did originally have a gale set (2221 instead of 2231) but it was suggested that it get replaced, and nobody seemed to care either way. Also, if you look at the other characters in the custom move project, almost all of them are built redundantly. Most character boards seem to have built their custom sets in the same way (ideal set with slight variations for preference, followed by a few gimmicky sets), so we are not unique in that respect.

I agree with you that it's unfortunate that we didn't have more discussion, but it is what it is.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Why are the sets locked so early anyway? Isn't EVO not until July 17th?

 

[Coffee™]

I mean, I tried to reboot discussion by posting those (mostly) throwaway sets, but it didn't reignite whatever spark was going on before.

We did originally have a gale set (2221 instead of 2231) but it was suggested that it get replaced, and nobody seemed to care either way. Also, if you look at the other characters in the custom move project, almost all of them are built redundantly. Most character boards seem to have built their custom sets in the same way (ideal set with slight variations for preference, followed by a few gimmicky sets), so we are not unique in that respect.

I agree with you that it's unfortunate that we didn't have more discussion, but it is what it is.

Yea don't get me wrong. I'm not blaming you guys specifically. I just feel like as a whole the custom project's impact for EVO should have been voiced far more throughout Smashboards. I only even found out the sets were already locked into by chance. I tend to browse through the custom threads every once in a while and even with that I didn't see specific discussion about the sets being locked for EVO just because I happened to miss a few select posts.

The fact that there's also no grace period to look them over is a bit silly as well.

Why are the sets locked so early anyway? Isn't EVO not until July 17th?

Doesn't make sense man. We should have definitely had till at least June.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Why are the sets locked so early anyway? Isn't EVO not until July 17th?

Because it's a lot of work to actually actually acquire and set them up, as well as keep track of whose console is whose.

Also, I accidentally hit the 'report' button the first time instead of the reply button, so sorry about that...

 

[_Tree]

Doesn't make sense man. We should have definitely had till at least June.

Although I'm not aware of what your experience with running large-scale events may be, I don't think it's really within our jurisdiction to claim what makes sense when it comes to registering systematic elements such as rules, considering that most of us are just players of the game and not high-level TOs. I would guess that there's a legitimate reason they cut these things off much earlier than we would anticipate. The EVO staff ain't newbies to this kind of thing, so I assume that such a deadline was made to ensure that all matters relating to rules would run smoothly, as well as leaving enough time to change things if something goes wrong.

 

[Quickhero]

Doesn't make sense man. We should have definitely ad till at least June.

They probably need the sets now instead of later so people are notifying ahead of time exactly what sets they can use on EVO, thus players participating know what sets they can try out so they don't end up being screwed over because they were practicing using a set that isn't allowed in EVO.

EDIT: Also what _Tree said.

 

[Coffee™]

Because it's a lot of work to actually actually acquire and set them up, as well as keep track of whose console is whose.

How much work it is depends on the number of 3ds and Wii U they have to set up. An AR covers getting the custom moves already. It's all really not all that hard to do.

Although I'm not aware of what your experience with running large-scale events may be, I don't think it's really within our jurisdiction to claim what makes sense when it comes to registering systematic elements such as rules, considering that most of us are just players of the game and not high-level TOs. I would guess that there's a legitimate reason they cut these things off much earlier than we would anticipate. The EVO staff ain't newbies to this kind of thing, so I assume that such a deadline was made to ensure that all matters relating to rules would run smoothly, as well as leaving enough time to change things if something goes wrong.

You're right. I guess there's no way to justify that claim but at the end of the day deadlining something like this more than 3 months before the tournament is unnecessary. I can see them doing it for the reasons you mentioned just because there are other games being played at EVO and I'm sure they don't want to worry about Smash 4 more than is necessary but the situation could have been handled a lot better.

 

[ArikadoSD]

That makes sense actually, I still think it's a bit too early though.

Anyway, I've been using customs lately, mainly the 2211 set, and I realized something: Penetrating Needles are worse than standard needles. They give Sheik so little options compared to the standard ones, the range is a lot shorter, and most importantly: pulling off rising needles to BF combo is a lot harder in my experience, but still doable (although as I said, *a lot harder*). I've been better off using the 1211 set. Gravity nade is awesome.

 

[BigHairyFart]

That makes sense actually, I still think it's a bit too early though.

Anyway, I've been using customs lately, mainly the 2211 set, and I realized something: Penetrating Needles are worse than standard needles. They give Sheik so little options compared to the standard ones, the range is a lot shorter, and most importantly: pulling off rising needles to BF combo is a lot harder in my experience, but still doable (although as I said, *a lot harder*). I've been better off using the 1211 set. Gravity nade is awesome.

They have a specific use against Rosalina and Villager, since you can hit them through Luma/the tree. Plus, they go through projectiles that would otherwise clank. Other than that, it's really just about how likely you think you are to break a shield with penetrating.

 

[ArikadoSD]

They have a specific use against Rosalina and Villager, since you can hit them through Luma/the tree. Plus, they go through projectiles that would otherwise clank. Other than that, it's really just about how likely you think you are to break a shield with penetrating.

Yeah that's what I thought about them, for going through Luma. Didn't know they go through the tree though, that's good to know.

The needles never break shield; it pressures shields but they'll regenerate after like 10 seconds anyway and opponents can always jump over them.

 

[_Tree]

but at the end of the day deadlining something like this more than 3 months before the tournament is unnecessary.

That may be the case too. It's possible that there isn't a specific reason for such a strict cutoff other than its just a matter of protocol. But when it boils down to that, there's really nothing we can do to change it. The system works, so they aren't gonna change it anytime soon.

The needles never break shield; it pressures shields but they'll regenerate after like 10 seconds anyway and opponents can always jump over them.

That's why I primarily use them for opponents that shield all the time. It's no secret that Shielding is one of your best options in Smash 4, so there are gonna be a few people that play by setting up a tent in that small bubble of defense. So combining the Pennies (shout-outs to @Wasserwipf) with all the safe shield pressure Sheik can pull off (retreating F-tilt, well spaced F-airs), the possibility of a shield break becomes much more feasible.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Why are the sets locked so early anyway? Isn't EVO not until July 17th?

I believe March 27 was the deadline set by Mr. Wizard. So AA set our deadline at March 17 to be on the safe side.

 

[Coffee™]

That may be the case too. It's possible that there isn't a specific reason for such a strict cutoff other than its just a matter of protocol. But when it boils down to that, there's really nothing we can do to change it. The system works, so they aren't gonna change it anytime soon.

Yea I agree, I don't think it'll change either based on Mr. Wizard's comments. I'm just salty that the projects importance and impact wasn't broadcast more for obvious reasons.

The needles never break shield; it pressures shields but they'll regenerate after like 10 seconds anyway and opponents can always jump over them.

The threat of such shield pressure is what makes them good.

 

[ArikadoSD]

The threat of such shield pressure is what makes them good.

I realize that, but I don't think trading long range and double the amount of needles (which matters when it comes to rising needles > BF) is worth that in my opinion.

 

[Bonds]

I'm so salty that all the discussion is happening AFTER the deadline, rip

 

[BigHairyFart]

I actually broke a guy's shield TWICE in the same match last night. Unfortunately, the following needle knocked him out of the broken-shield animation, so I couldn't get the punish.

 

[Bonds]

I figured something else out today. If your opponent is on stage level where bouncing fish would hit them at kill %s, they're usually going to airdodge so they don't die. If you throw a skim grenade instead of bouncing fish, it'll end up right where their airdodge ends and send them at a near unrecoverable angle.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Been playing around a bit more with Sheik's customs (I just unlocked them all **** yeah) and I've a few more things to say..

Pisces is hella powerful. This thing killed Rosalina from like 90-100% in training mode. Weak nair still combos into it which is sweet. I've tried finding uses for Gale but I really haven't. The landing lag on it is terrible and the fact that it's quick doesn't make up for the lost hitbox. The only use I found for it was quickly sweetspotting the ledge and leaving no room to get punished while doing the Vanish animation but I honestly don't think that's worth it at all.

Abyss is really interesting. I can theorize that the spiking hitbox while doing it can really mess with some characters off-stage; mainly Pit(too) and Rosalina because of their recovery, and gliding offthe stage/platforms to try and get the spike really scares people away lol. Might need some more testing on it against actual people; the set I've been using is 1231 (gravity nade and abyss) or 2231 (penetrating needles, gravity nade, and abyss) and I'm liking them, although so far 1211 is still my favourite.

Pisces might have some merit but I still find it a bit too gimmicky, the mobility Bouncing Fish provides and the fact that it's mostly always safe on shield thanks to being able to cancel its lag/animation after connecting is extremely important.

edit:

for relevance here are the sets that are set for EVO:

Spoiler

 

[Endeby]

Just want to chime in and say that penetrating needles definitely has more to them than the rare shieldbreak. Remember that lowering the opponent's shield also set up for shield stabs, and make them afraid to put it up again. Well, for a short time until it regenerate, anyway.

Another attractive trait about penetrating needles is that they are quick to fully reload. Meaning you can often do it in the air, without cancelling it with an airdodge (into bouncing fish). It's very easy to always have a full charge with these.

I'm a huge penetrating needles fanboy, but I must confess that the regular needles is probably the better choice for most matchups. Mostly due to their vastly superior range. The extra damage and hitstun is nice, and they also do a much better job at keeping your kill moves unstale.

 

[Ping Warrior]

I found some uses for the different bouncingfishes
Jellyfish works to kill really early if you take someone offstage with a fair string and end it with bouncing fish. It's also harder to dodge since they're likely not used to the different timing and the sudden change in speed. Killed Fox at 40% (after it hit!).
Pisces I think could work on a zone-based Sheik. I used Penetrating Needes - Bouncing Grenade - Vanish - Pisces. Rack of damage with zoning and kill earlier than normal. I'll post more later hopefully

 

[Illuminose]

The issue I have with alternate versions of bouncing fish is that it reduces the damage output of Sheik's combos and her overall variety of setups significantly. All of Sheik's aerials can lead into bouncing fish depending on percent, weight, and positioning, like fair -> BF, double fair -> BF, fthrow -> BF, (weak) nair -> bf, (weak) bair -> bf... These setups just don't really exist with Pisces or Jellyfish, and BF does huge damage, way more than another fair or two. Paralyzing Needle -> Pisces/Jellyfish is a thing, but paralyzing needle has a charge that is slow enough to be reacted to and lacks so many uses of regular needles, including gimping, racking up damage, pressuring the opponent to approach, camping, and the combo into BF. Both also lack the huge edgeguarding utility of BF, as Pisces will cause Sheik to fall too far off screen to recover if it connects and Jellyfish is insanely high risk. They are also too laggy to be used as a legitimate aerial escape and mobility option, which BF is incredibly useful for. While there are appeals to both Jellyfish and Pisces, particularly in terms of kill power, they just don't match up to the sheer overall utility of bouncing fish.

At first I thought penetrating needles were a lot better for the shield pressure, greater stun, and quick charge, but I've started to prefer 1211 rather than 2211 as of late, at least in most matchups. The main issue is range, which penetrating needles lack compared to normal needles. This directly nerfs Sheik's camping ability, which can be kinda lame at times but is the proper way to play some matchups to the point where they are essentially unwinnable. You have to get noticeably closer to hit with Penetrating Needles, making it easier for a potential punish if the opponent manages to dodge the needles via a spot dodge, jump, power shield, whatever. I think it's worth investigating the matchups the different types of needles are good in though fwiw seeing as they can be useful. For instance vs Rosalina & Luma, getting damage on Rosalina by going through Luma can be really nice, as can bypassing Villager's tree although I'm not too sure how useful that is seeing as most Villager's don't grow the counter tree. Also not clanking with Yoshi's egg from what I've tested so far.

 

[Ping Warrior]

Just a thought, but I think we could handle customs with a bit more analysis, like in the matchup thread. Either we take time on this thread to post techniques and tricks for each custom x amount of days per custom, or we make individual threads. Also, our movesets could be used to game people if we set them up right. We're highly aggressive against villager, correct? why not use customs that promote aggression? paralysis needle could see use here to finish off stocks. gravity nade forces him/her to us. both could see good use to use aggressively. Maybe gale too, if we want to edgeguard(and it doesn't trigger the balloon explosion, which cost me a set tonight.)

these could also expand the matchup thread by adding a recommended custom set and how to utilize it. (maybe not the last part if it gets repetitive). i feel pisces could be used on a zoning based sheik by using the early kill % along with maybe skimming grenade to use its range and knockback angle (It shoots them straight sideways!!!)

Either way we do it, we could stand to find techs for all customs. They all feel unique enough to warrant more thought than the other characters, which often have super linear processes for choosing customs (every doc player runs fast pill, Villagers run counter tree only, etc.)
Our girl deserves more than that.

To start off, why not look at needles, Paralysis needles probably have ways we could approach with them (like zss players and their paralyzer) Dashjump-B Reverse Needle? And we could probably combo out of the knockbaack too. (Paralysis Needle to Gravity Nade to Upsmash to stack % ala Zss style easybake combos?)
Also, I know @ _Tree did some testing on the stuntime, but that was a rather rough test (stopwatch tho) and with more in-depth testing of the stun and knockback hitstun, we could probably find some good combos from it. Anyone else have some ideas for Paralysis Needles? All I've said is speculation since I'm kind of thinking about this as i go, but i'll try to test it soon. (gotta deal with childrens wanting to forget what button is jump and thinking the grenade is Sheik's strongest move... >_<

 

[Ping Warrior]

Also gotta unlock the moves for WiiU. Been using 3DS for custom sets, which slows testing on WiiU

 

[_Tree]

Yes, there's a lot about customs that could be elaborated on. However the primary testers who have tested stuff in the past have been busy lately. Tristan's been moving, Absol has finals, I have Uni work dominating my life. Not everything goes toward the boards and Sheik.

However...I have just today expressed interest in testing again. It feels like its been too long, as there's still tons of information we could investigate. I can't really say when I'll begin again, but its definitely on the table for me.

Regarding the para needles testing I did...If you can find a better option than a stopwatch, please notify me. It seemed pretty make-shift at the time, but I can't imagine many better options for testing such a thing. The lack of any in-game data prevent many more accurate solutions...
I want to take over the match-up thread as well. Doing so would be a big undertaking though, as I'd really like to re-format it.

But most important of all Ping Warrior...If you want more testing to be done, BE the person to initiate it. Doing some testing and contributing numbers to the boards would be greatly appreciated, and you'll definitely be noticed for your work. It's easy enough to complain about the lack of information here. I do thank you for trying to kick our asses back into gear, and you've certainly motivated me to get back to improving these boards, but you're also capable of contributing here too.

All that being said, I look forward to your contributions

 

[Illuminose]

I...think Paralyzing Needle is bad. There are definitely combos you can pull off with it like into Pisces or Jellyfish that are actually strong, but the issue is that the one needle has such a long start-up, and there's no way of keeping it on hand or something. Its range is mediocre. On top of that, we lose the powerful zoning projectile of needles, which are useful in every single matchup.

Regardless I'm definitely interested in discussing sets with matchups, sounds like something we could learn from.

 

[Ping Warrior]

Okay, just did some para needle testing and from what I could gather, the startup frames are somewhere between 30-36 (.6 seconds) They sort of combo into thing the same way ZSS's paralyzer does. My theory that Needle to Gravity grenade to Usmash would work is entirely false. Something about the para needle knockback makes the grenade send them higher above sheik. (approximately a jump height above) this changed the combo to work as Needle-Grenade-Uair/Bair. Unfortunately, the % stacking I thought would help is a net gain of 1%(needle) + 3%(nade).

As for landing the needle, it's best use seems to be offstage. Either sitting near the ledge and sniping it like we're melee, (which leads to an easy bouncing fish likely to kill) or jumping to hit at an angle. (leads to a fair due to gravity) onstage, jumping to throw it has enough lag that sheik sort of lands on them with the needle. The landing lag isn't terrible as this lets Sheik Usmash (btw, at 120%ish the needle knockback is perfect for a sweetspot Usmash. yay free kills!) If we were to use this, it'd probably be on characters with linear recoveries for easier offstage hits.

Speculation: Jumping over a projectile and landing next to the enemy with a needle. it can be reacted to, but might punish overcommiting. Also might beat out Ness's UpB if we're quick to hit it before he gets super armor. (though we lose the ability to harass him with needles)


COMBOS INTO:
Up Smash
Fair
Nair
Uair
Bouncing Fish (all customs, but depends on distance)
Gravity Grenade (up close and detonate quick)
Ftilit
Dtiit
Grab
Dash Attack
Jab
Dair (at least midair)

All in all, it's not a bad move, it's just situational. Which is why I think it could work in a few matchups.
Also in doubles with Villager, you can give villager a fast, easy kill option by having your partner pocket it. (and grenade to give him a fast projectile to combo with)

meanwhile, I had some fun with Abyss. got it to combo into Usmash and got some kills on the Luigi bot by Vanish Gliding with Abyss. Might see some use despite the range changes.

Abyss might also be able to combo from para needle offstage. I'll look into it now (typing with WiiU Gamepad >_<

Jellyfish still seems kind useless but might be good to punish low recoveries like Falcon and Rosalina (maybe stagespike too!)

Anyway, I'll try to find some in-match usability of Para needle. With luck, we could end up with some powerful custom sets.

 

[Ping Warrior]

Nvm about offstage dair, it works better onstage into offstage dair (easy to spike with too!)

 

[Ping Warrior]

Up close, it worked into Vanish for a kill. It seems to act really well as a high percent kill combo option. Overall enjoying the different ways to kill with it. It kind of gets rid of the whole “Sheik has no kill options” stigma, which I like.

 

[Ping Warrior]

The range covers slightly less than half of fd. About half of Sheik's width less than penetrating needles

Sorry for spam posting, just realized the edit option was there...

 

[_Tree]

Sorry for spam posting, just realized the edit option was there...

Yea just be careful not to double post. Good work with the customs so far though.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I like that you're actually looking into these things yourself. It's one thing to speculate and hope somebody else takes over, this way we're actually getting a lot of useful information(even if we don't gain anything, it's still useful to know that we won't).

Kudos.

 

[Ping Warrior]

Okay! Abyss facts I could find:

Range is about a crouched Sheik height shorter than Vanish.
Usually 5% damage, not sure if it's different at the explosion compared to mid-flight
Ledge Snapping feels weird, sometimes I would Abyss glide back onstage (not much landing lag though!)
Basically a kill around 80%, guaranteed from Battlefield ledge height at 100% (Enemy did UpB at 99%(pre-hit)
Sheik seems more invincible during Abyss. I tested on Villager, Against his Exploding Balloon, Abyss didn't get hit, but I dropped a set in tournament from vanish exploding a stray balloon.
Also able to pop balloons on Villager with the Abyss hitbox safely.
No difference in Sheik's landing lag compared to Vanish
Sometimes combos on ground to Tipper Up smash if they miss a tech
Coming out of Abyss feels similar to Mewtwo's Teleport (she seems to glide a little)
Abyss Gliding > Vanish Gliding

I think a good set against Villager would be 2231
Penetrating Needles go through tree and rocket
Gravity Grenade pulls him in for a quick kill (landed quite a few against one in tournament)
Abyss is a sure kill at 100% if it hits him, otherwise it can take a balloon(maybe both) without getting hit and the shortenec range is mitigated by our other recovery options and against Villager, we're not looking to dive as deep because of his exploding balloons anyhow

TLDR: 2231 vs Villager


Side note, Paralysis Needle's startup lag has a neat mixup property.
In the air, it transfers the animation so you can jump-start throwing it-land, and it shoots straight.
I landed a few on a bot on Battlefield by running off the ledge and wavebouncing so there's less time to react.

I was unable to figure out a testing method for the Para Needle Stun Time better than @ _Tree so I apologize for the criticism. I'm curious if there 's anything in the game's files that could give us any clues. I did try a stopwatch to check @ _Tree 's work and my results mostly agreed on the stun time.

I'll check when Pisces kills from the center of FD, but I don't have a partner to test DI

Btw, does anyone know if Gale-Cancelling works from the ground. I'd love to see @False making Sheik this broken untouchable monster by Gale-Cancelling to do crazy stuff better than his pp craziness

Even More Speculation: Gale vs Rosalina to get past Luma instantly! Any thoughts? Abyss could also work since Rosalina has a linear recovery and it could hit both of them. Once I get down Gale-Cancelling, I'll try it out.

On to Gravity Grenade testing!!

 

[_Tree]

In the air, it transfers the animation so you can jump-start throwing it-land, and it shoots straight.

Omg this out of a backflip B-reversed needle could be huge. I knew the throwing animation continued when landing, but haven't considered it since.

 

[Ping Warrior]

Tried it, it looks awesome.

 

[BigHairyFart]

My theory that Needle to Gravity grenade to Usmash would work is entirely false. Something about the para needle knockback makes the grenade send them higher above sheik.

The hitstun on Gravity Grenade is long enough that you can just dash towards them for the U-Smash, and it still combos. Kills Falcon on FD at 98%, is a true combo, and just gets easier to do as % goes up due to increased stun time from the needle. However, if they DI the grenade up, there's no way in hell you're hitting them with a U-Smash. DI'ing in/out doesn't seem to have much effect, and DI'ing down makes it easier to hit the U-Smash without running as far to catch them.

 

[Ping Warrior]

Did you try this with a needle too? They seemed to fly too far specifically if the grenade hit during the Needle knockback.


Penetrating Needles Differences:

Penetrating Needles are one Sheik character model shorter than regular Needles.
Penetrating Needles do 2% individually, Needles do 1.5-is
Penetrating do slightly more knockback and at a higher angle.
Upon spamming 1 needle over and over, Penetrating are around 1.1-1.2 times faster than regular Needles.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Do you mean the grenade hits while they are frozen, or while they are sent flying after the paralysis wears off? At 150%, I hit the grenade while Falcon is flying back, and it combos. I can't seem to even land the grenade during the paralysis, even at 300% or even 999%.