greenblob
Smash Lord
Well, fair/nair/dair -> grab worked in Melee...
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Sheik is nerfed....
- Thread starter draigaran
- Start date
I knew that Sheik needed nerfing, but I think they over did it. What buffs did Zelda get to balance it out? I know her fair/bair is still nasty, but it seems to me that both of them will be crappy now.
I wonder why they nerfed her so hard, but left some other high tiers like Marth almost unchanged. From what I understand, the tipper is still a murderer despite a slightly decreased range and Marth actually has less lag on aerials.
I wonder why they nerfed her so hard, but left some other high tiers like Marth almost unchanged. From what I understand, the tipper is still a murderer despite a slightly decreased range and Marth actually has less lag on aerials.
How can she rack up damage like no other? She's slow now, so it's not like she can even rack up damage with hit and run tactics. All of her tilts and aerials have been nerfed to prevent easy comboing besides Upair. She has seemingly zero throws from which she can combo.
Usmash was deadly in Melee? This one looks slightly nerfed. She won't be impossible to use. She will just suck.
Umm... only on really really low percentages. A lot of things work on really low percentages. And what's Sheik going do on from a throw in Brawl? That's right, nothing.
Goldkirby
Smash Ace
Wow, I just watched that video and I think your right. They should have let sheik keep at least the tilt comboability. Right now it looks like the only thing that can kill somewhat is f-smash and d-smash. Plus it looks like you lag on landing when you throw needles in the air, which could mean no more needles to grabs. This makes me a sad panda.
Luthien
Smash Ace
Crap. So now Sheik HAS to switch to Zelda? This is dumb. I never thought a nerf THIS bad would strike my favourite ninja. Well, I guess I'll have to be dissapointed. I guess a buffed Zelda will have to comfort me.
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
All the videos I've seen besides that Marth one you posted, Sheik was easily able to combo. I can't remember the videos, but I'm sure they're all in the Sheik info thread. Yeah her throws can't combo, but maybe they changed the mechanics of throws yet again, if I remember correctly you couldn't exactly combo from throws in 64 either.
And her Usmash in Melee wasn't that great, unless you hit it where her hands joined. Now it doesn't matter where it hits.
Yes, there is no more lag-cancel on aerial B moves (or any kind of lag cancel at all, apparently). So no needles games either. Muahahahaha.Wow, I just watched that video and I think your right. They should have let sheik keep at least the tilt comboability. Right now it looks like the only thing that can kill somewhat is f-smash and d-smash. Plus it looks like you lag on landing when you throw needles in the air, which could mean no more needles to grabs. This makes me a sad panda.
I've looked through a lot of the vids. She can only combo people at really low percentages, at which point a lot of combos work. But as the percentages build up, her tilts and aerials do too much knockback for comboing but not enough for KO:ing.
Downside: It's weaker.
They dumbest part about it is they nerfed her hardcore and yet made Marth a god... again I swear sometimes i wonder if the guys at nintendo even freak'n think about what they are doing. heck i'd rather i keep her the same, and give marth a buff or two then to render her useless. as am tter of fact they could made zelda buffed and just made the transformation time that much longer making it next to impossible to transform in battle.
Yuna, Sheik getting a retooling doesn't give you leave to come over here and act like a douche. You play PAL Peach anyhow you pretty much had the advantage in that matchup. If that's all you're gonna do here then get out.
Sheik is still among the fastest characters in the game. She can flatly outrun Marth this time. If you think Sheik's movement is slow, you haven't been watching other characters closely enough. She also still lands hits like no one's business.
But yes, Sheik's KO moves are next to none, or are highly inconvenient (Usmash). Transforming to Zelda to get any kind of efficient KO is key, but you need to be able to knock them far away enough to that Transforming is safe. It takes roughly twice as long to do now, and Sheik doesn't have much of said knockback moves.
-Also, Zelda doesn't have too much to worry about this time around. All evidence points to her being a better standalone character than Sheik with her massive redesign. As for Marth, everyone had better have a plan for him.
But yes, Sheik's KO moves are next to none, or are highly inconvenient (Usmash). Transforming to Zelda to get any kind of efficient KO is key, but you need to be able to knock them far away enough to that Transforming is safe. It takes roughly twice as long to do now, and Sheik doesn't have much of said knockback moves.
-Also, Zelda doesn't have too much to worry about this time around. All evidence points to her being a better standalone character than Sheik with her massive redesign. As for Marth, everyone had better have a plan for him.
Layupfreak
Smash Ace
Yes it was obvious.
I haven't seen much of Marth yet but I'll try him out when I get to play the game on Wednesday. I doubt he's been buffed like people are claiming he was. He kinda looks the same though with a possibly slightly diminished range and knockback.
A huge problem for her now is DI (especially with the new freeze frames, which makes it much easier). Every time she hits you and you've got less than 80%, just DI away. You won't fly away too far to safely make it back onto the stage and she won't be able to combo you. She has no moves that at 80% will pose a danger to your life besides possibly a fair at the edge but that's irrelevant since none of her aerials besides uair combos so if she hits you with a ground-move, just DI away, aerial, DI upwards (exept upair)). Once you've gone past 80%, even without DI, it will be very hard for her to combo you off of anything, anyway. And she'll only be able to combo you into a one-hitter (fair/nair/whatever). So her comboability has been nerfed, definitely.
I don't think I ever called her slow. I said she was slower. She doesn't land hits like she used to anymore. She's slower, which means a lot of her "Random Fast ****" is gone, like running around and then throwing a dash attack out or bairing you to a dashattack and stuff. Pretty much everything she does can also be shieldgrabbed now (besides a really spaced bair), so that's a big minus for her as well.
Zelda's been buffed? I'll have to really check her out then.
The "I laugh"-part was a joke. I just wanted to point out all of the nerfs. I apologize.
Everyone's combo ability and edgeguard has been nerfed hardcore. Not just Sheik. -.-
Sheik still racks up damage easier than a lot of characters and is still very good, but her low DPH, extreme KO power nerf, and global combo nerf keep Sheik in check. You need to stop throwing the Melee analyses at people and treat the game like it is - Brawl. When Sheik can't KO, Zelda is now reliably able to finish the job.
Also, if you're expecting Peach's tricks to play anything like they did in Melee, you're going to be sorely disappointed. And I will be the first one there to see you ***** about it.
Sheik still racks up damage easier than a lot of characters and is still very good, but her low DPH, extreme KO power nerf, and global combo nerf keep Sheik in check. You need to stop throwing the Melee analyses at people and treat the game like it is - Brawl. When Sheik can't KO, Zelda is now reliably able to finish the job.
Also, if you're expecting Peach's tricks to play anything like they did in Melee, you're going to be sorely disappointed. And I will be the first one there to see you ***** about it.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
sheik and meta knight are both in the same boat then, neither can really kill anything so I see neither being above mid teir
Zodiac
Smash Master
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but it looks cool! Anyway, my once secondary and past main sheik has returned, as nerfed as she is (I dare anyone to argue sheiks gender with her new model) she is still fast and will still be freaking awesome.
Of course a lot of people have been nerfed. Sheik's just gotten nerfed harcore, which is why I believe she'll be a bit low on the Tier List.
Of course Peach won't be the same.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Hmm not too sure about the edge guarding statement since a few characters like jigglyouff have better edgeguarding.
Link might have better edgeguarding ability using his boomerang but yeah I see what you mean.
I can understand why they nerfed Sheik since the whole premise was Shiek causes damage while Zelda causes the KO.
Any thoughts about Marth ryoko?
Do you think Sheik may be capable of facing marth now that the range of his sword has been decreased?
Only if there's an answer somewhere in there for his raw killing ability.
DeuceBlade
Smash Champion
Rake up damage with sheik, switch to zelda fair.. ko. simple formula.
..."invincible" -.-
She may be invincible white using Transform, but there's a still a moment right after you switch into the other character, unable to do anything. And during that whole time the enemy can just charge their FSmash unless you hit them with something super-hard, or they're dead and respawning.
She may be invincible white using Transform, but there's a still a moment right after you switch into the other character, unable to do anything. And during that whole time the enemy can just charge their FSmash unless you hit them with something super-hard, or they're dead and respawning.
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I have yet to see a video of this longer transformation, but assuming it is longer, that creates one problem in my mind: recovery. I loved shocking my friends when Sheik would go flying almost totally off the screen, then I would do a quick transformation, jump, and ^B back to the ledge with just enough reach. I've won a few matches on that move. But now, with the transformation apparently taking much longer, could that still be pulled off?
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Shiek got a buff in speed, just FYI. She can combo with ftilt really well, although that will change once people get used to SDI'ing it. Fair combos well now, as do bair and dair.
She can combo amazingly from dthrow with fair or uair, which combos into all other aerials.
Fthrow sets up nicely as well, although a lot of the time the opponent recovers fast enough to not be comboed.
Dthrow is almost guaranteed combo though.
Compared to the other characters, shiek is a combo beast.
EDIT: gahh, overestimated her comboability, I just watched some more videos and it's worse than I thought.
blueriku
Smash Journeyman
no i've done some homework on sheik to zelda transformation. it seems that transforming from sheik to zelda is almost an exact second and transforming for zelda to sheik is one second and some frames maybe 4-6 more or less most likely more. so sheik transforming to zelda for recovery is mostly likely possible but it transforming back that you need to mind game fortunately zelda is way better than her melee counterpart so buying time so you can transform back should not be that much of a problem.
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Hey, that was an incomplete sentence.
Hedo
Smash Rookie
Thank God she got nerfed..
Gundo
Smash Apprentice
It's not that shes nerfed, it's just mostly everyone else got better.
She got a buff in speed? How did she get a buff in speed is she runs slower, her dash attack is slower and the rest is pretty much the same? How could she possibly have gotten faster from that?
When saying "You can combo from X to Y", one has to think further than "at 0%". Pretty much everything works at those %s. You've got so little damage and knockback you're barely launched off the ground by attacks, allowing for a combo.
Heck, it's not even "good comboability" if you can do it at 50%. It's good if you can do it past 50%. It's only amazing if it works at 100%. Dthrow (which doesn't even have set knockbac anymore!) can only combo into fair and uair (guaranteed, which means no wiggling into nair/fair/dair or airdodging) at really low %s. There's also the problem that neither of those moves actually kill. It's basically saying "Sheik can do a two hit combo that never KO's". Whoopie.
A big factor into comboability is DI as well. Since none of her moves actually KO now, you don't really risk much at, say, 80% by constantly DI:ing everything she dishes out at you away from her, thus preventing her from following up.
Do not judge comboability by how easily non-experienced casual players are comboed. I can chaingrab people as Sheik in PAL. Doesn't mean it's an actual combo.
Bair has always been a good combo move... if the initial hit isn't a sweetspot. It's the same in Melee. It's not a good combo move if it's a sweetspot. And once again, not a KO move. Have you seen the lag (and weird trajectory) on Dair? Most of the time, the opponent can DI away, wiggle into a move or just airdodge out of a combo.
Fair comboes no one unless they have 0-20%.
This is your standard for a good combo? Fthrow's comboability is 0%. It's a possible mindgame, fthrow into a mixup between dsmash and another grab.
No it isn't. I've seen even casual players get out of it.
Because she can, gasp, do 2 hit combos easily and 3-hit combos if they're really bad at DI?
Yeah, some of us watch a lot of videos before making a judgement like that. Sorry. I reply to posts as I read them, so I didn't see this 'til now.
No they didn't and yes she was.
TelpeFion
Smash Lord
Yeah, to me it seems that if the opponent knows how to DI, Sheik can't really combo or KO them in Brawl. That seems to be the case with just about everyone though... man, this game has like no combos. Recovery time from attacks is really short, and on the ground you can get your shield up real quick after almost anything.
MmSuperMario
Smash Rookie
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Bleh, I'll still use sheik, although its such bull Sheik gets Nerfed and Marth is still overpowered.ed
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
Just a quick question, is there an advantage to using her new Dthrow or are all of them doing it just out of habit? Because it looks pretty lame. Actually incredibly lame. But that's just from watching videos I could be totally wrong.
Pikaville
Pikaville returns 10 years later.
Does transforming still make you really floaty in the air when your recovering?
It saddens me that Sheik is nerfed but I wasnt expecting her to be in Brawl so I already have my eye on a new main.
It also sickens me to hear that Marth is now(pretty much) better than ever.I f*****g hate him.
It saddens me that Sheik is nerfed but I wasnt expecting her to be in Brawl so I already have my eye on a new main.
It also sickens me to hear that Marth is now(pretty much) better than ever.I f*****g hate him.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
sheik is still good.. just not as good as zelda... but sheik matches up better against certain characters... i.e. ike
MorpheusVGX
Smash Journeyman
I think some of you guys are crying too much and too soon. I've studied almost every character in the game. Sheik got Nerfed just in the way it needed to be. You are sad because she is not now the cheaty character she was before (no lag, amazing speed, high priority). She is still very capable as I have seen. She is still fast, has little lag, she can recover better now, her chain is now usable, and she has good A attacks. Don't complain that much. Those who really loved Sheik's fighting style and felt bad because she was too overpowered can now show you heart on the battlefield, by still being competitive.
Soma
Smash Journeyman
They removed the d-throw chaingrab is the PAL version, so I think everyone seen it coming for the most part.
YinYang.ERROR
Smash Journeyman
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Dthrow still sets up the best for combos. He other throws are terrible.
Rampage
vx
I know Sheik's nerfed but are her F and Utilts at least a little bit effective?
