Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[LaBeteNoire]

I think auto-dancing akin to what is in HGH as a toggle-able option would be the ideal solution. I can definitely see where meleebrawler is coming from on this one, but from reading this thread it seems like I'm not alone in really enjoying how dancing worked in Shantae GBC. LaBeteNoire I think you nailed it with the Ocarina of Time analogy, I don't know how that never occurred to me before.

Perhaps they could reward you for doing full inputs by giving you buffed transformations, so that you don't feel like you are wasting your time doing the inputs when you have access to an auto-dance feature. Maybe your attacks deal slightly more damage, or you have slighly improved movement speed or jump height or something. Maybe the buff could even scale with how rhythmically accurate your inputs are. Certain platforming sections might still be possible using auto dancing, but would become significantly easier when you nail the classic dance inputs.

Some sort of system like that whereby they make the classic dancing mechanic optional but rewarding, without punishing auto-dancers significantly, seems like the best of both worlds to me.

Imagine if they allocated her dance moves to her taunt buttons, giving her 4 taunts instead of 3 (two different side taunts) and either which taunt you used last dictated what your transform special turned you into, or if the taunts were made fast enough to actually input them like the first game and transform.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think auto-dancing akin to what is in HGH as a toggle-able option would be the ideal solution. I can definitely see where meleebrawler is coming from on this one, but from reading this thread it seems like I'm not alone in really enjoying how dancing worked in Shantae GBC. LaBeteNoire I think you nailed it with the Ocarina of Time analogy, I don't know how that never occurred to me before.

Perhaps they could reward you for doing full inputs by giving you buffed transformations, so that you don't feel like you are wasting your time doing the inputs when you have access to an auto-dance feature. Maybe your attacks deal slightly more damage, or you have slighly improved movement speed or jump height or something. Maybe the buff could even scale with how rhythmically accurate your inputs are. Certain platforming sections might still be possible using auto dancing, but would become significantly easier when you nail the classic dance inputs.

Some sort of system like that whereby they make the classic dancing mechanic optional but rewarding, without punishing auto-dancers significantly, seems like the best of both worlds to me.

It's not that the dancing is inherently bad, it's just that the games as they are aren't great fits for it.

There is a very fine line to balance what you're suggesting. If the platforming is forgiving enough for auto-dances then the manual ones will feel pointless, and if it's too unforgiving (or even impossible in some cases if I understand you right) you're pretty much punishing the player for trying to play a certain way. It's like the auto vs. manual aiming in Sin & Punishment, balanced most of the time but there's a moment that's just straight up can't be won in auto mode because the shots are too weak to destroy the target in time. It doesn't feel good when you're essentially told you've been using what amounts to a crutch the whole time.

Wanna make dancing substantial, think bigger. Make the resulting transformations as versatile as a Kirby Copy Ability, to the point of being able to fight through almost any level, not just puzzles.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Imagine if they allocated her dance moves to her taunt buttons, giving her 4 taunts instead of 3 (two different side taunts) and either which taunt you used last dictated what your transform special turned you into, or if the taunts were made fast enough to actually input them like the first game and transform.

Incorporating her taunts into her moveset might be tricky, especially because they have to design the game to be somewhat playable on a single joy con. The way I always imagined Shantae in Smash, pressing any taunt button would put her into dance mode, and then performing any of the Shantae GBC dance sequences would produce a different taunt. Not competitively relevant but a very fun touch. Her down b would be her battle transformations, which would work just like dancing in Risky's Revenge - you cycle through dance moves, and then stop on a particular dance move to perform the desired transformation.

Your idea on the other hand is more creative, and would definitely push the envelope more. Whether it would actually work well is hard to say without trying it out, but it would certainly make for a unique fighter concept.

Can I also just say, it's so refreshing to be past the 3DS / Wii U era when every character idea was constrained by whether or not the 3DS could handle it. No limits on Shantae's transformations now!

It's not that the dancing is inherently bad, it's just that the games as they are aren't great fits for it.

There is a very fine line to balance what you're suggesting. If the platforming is forgiving enough for auto-dances then the manual ones will feel pointless, and if it's too unforgiving (or even impossible in some cases if I understand you right) you're pretty much punishing the player for trying to play a certain way. It's like the auto vs. manual aiming in Sin & Punishment, balanced most of the time but there's a moment that's just straight up can't be won in auto mode because the shots are too weak to destroy the target in time. It doesn't feel good when you're essentially told you've been using what amounts to a crutch the whole time.

Wanna make dancing substantial, think bigger. Make the resulting transformations as versatile as a Kirby Copy Ability, to the point of being able to fight through almost any level, not just puzzles.

Stating whether dancing is a good fit for the games or not starts to get into more subjective territory. Some might reasonably feel that it adds a tedious and repetitive interruption to the gameplay. Others might feel with equal justification that fusing in a little rhythmic mini-game enhances the experience, and adds a sense of skill and immersion to what would otherwise be a fairly bland mechanic.

One interesting aspect of game design is how designers give players some choice over the type of challenge they face by rewarding different skills. This video does a good job discussing this (skip to 12:30ish for the relevant part): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9NdAao9y_4. To summarize, Mario games reward platforming skills of course, but they also reward both more skilled and less skilled players for exploring the level. More skilled players who choose to explore can find extra-challenging sequences that yield extra coins or collectibles. Less skilled players who choose to explore can find secret shortcuts to circumvent challenging parts of the levels.

Analogously, Shantae games could reward both platforming skills and manual dancing in a similar way. Players less skilled at platforming could ease the challenge in tricky sections with a well-executed dance, whereas more skilled players will be able to leave dancing on auto and get by on their platforming skills alone.

For those who prefer auto dancing, but also don't want a huge platforming challenge, this compromise would still work out pretty well, since you could still auto dance through most of the game without noticing much of a difficulty penalty. I wouldn't worry that balancing the game this way will make manual dancing feel pointless to players who like it - just receiving the movement/damage buffs will feel rewarding enough for players to have fun executing a mechanic they already enjoy, even if they don't really need its help to get through most areas.

Perhaps sprinkle in a small number of strictly optional sequences throughout the game that require both a big dance buff and a deft platforming hand, as a treat for players who enjoy both manual dancing and punishing platforming challenges.

You may be right that it's a fine line, but if executed well, I think this would be an interesting and fun take on player-controlled dynamic difficulty adjustment.

I am intrigued by your suggestion to think bigger and make Shantae's transformations as versatile as a Kirby copy ability though. Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

 

[MeteoRain]

So the arbitrary power struggle in the fanbase continues.

Among Smash Tubers, it has also become a trend to mock and shame those who disagree with Byleth.
Apparently you're obligated to agree and be happy with everything, unconditionally. <_<

Apparently people are ment to be cattle, not customers. If you dislike or especially hate a decision made with your money, you're clearly entitled, immature, or have ill will.

I'm a Zelda main who also hates the new look for ultimate because they made her a waifu, took out the archetype I loved, and gave her what should be Shantae's spunk and poses.

I'm actually surprised they didn't use Zelda for that spirit battle, between being magical with pointy ears, known to transform herself (although to a lesser extent), and her new youthful design and behavior. You'd think she'd fit quite a bit more than Zero Suit?

At least there is some things in common with Shantae and Samus, I just can't wrap my head around Risky as Daisy. Without Tetra or especially Captain Syrup on the roster, I'd figure Bayonetta.

 

[Morning Raven]

Knowing Sakurai, I think he could make a transformation wheel, a la Half Genie Hero, work.
I mean it's obvious that he now has the mindset of making characters play as if they were taken directly from the games.
Looking at characters like Inkling, Megaman and Terry, that really feel like they straight up jumped out of their own games to join in.
So really, I believe Sakurai can make it work.

Just because YOU can't see it working, doesn't mean Sakurai can't see it either.
Or anyone else for that matter.
Your feelings are not absolute, they're not the same every human being.
They're your own and your own ONLY!

You're misreading me I think. Of course the transformations could be a thing and work well. Pokemon Trainer and Shulk's wheel for his Monaco skills exists. They can be done just fine.

During the time of Sm4sh, those arguments were what I usually saw other people saying about Shantae. Transformations require too much work and they won't give a triple kit to one lowly indie. Around that time (heavy PC vs HGH moveset era), I thought of the same concept as fusions, instant single spell transformations etc, and that concept I met with even more gatekeeping of "couldnt happen". You couldnt have both Shantae and the animal models on the 3DS etc. And then Corrin shows up with his dragon stuff. That's what I'm salty about.

My only legitimate issue with a transformation style kit is I dont see being on neutral special like Shulk's Monado. I cant see Sakurai giving Kirby the ability to copy a full transformation wheel. I could see it closer to Pkmn Trainer/old Zelda with the down special to transform and then have the HGH/Monado menu (Would also mimic the first game needing to press Down to start any dance.)

Imagine if they allocated her dance moves to her taunt buttons, giving her 4 taunts instead of 3 (two different side taunts and either which taunt you used last dictated what your transform special turned you into, or if the taunts were made fast enough to actually input them like the first game and transform.

I saw this concept on a moveset video and I've wanted it ever since. Not necessarily an extra way to transform. Just the option to dance for her taunts to reference all her old dances. I love that. I'd ignore everyone and run to the opposite side of a stage just to dance.

I'm actually surprised they didn't use Zelda for that spirit battle, between being magical with pointy ears, known to transform herself (although to a lesser extent), and her new youthful design and behavior. You'd think she'd fit quite a bit more than Zero Suit?

At least there is some things in common with Shantae and Samus, I just can't wrap my head around Risky as Daisy. Without Tetra or especially Captain Syrup on the roster, I'd figure Bayonetta.

Some really good points. I guess just pants and a ponytail? And Samus mimics PC Shantae a little? Maybe?
Daisy for Risky... I heard of one logical idea for it before and I cant remember.

 

[meleebrawler]

Incorporating her taunts into her moveset might be tricky, especially because they have to design the game to be somewhat playable on a single joy con. The way I always imagined Shantae in Smash, pressing any taunt button would put her into dance mode, and then performing any of the Shantae GBC dance sequences would produce a different taunt. Not competitively relevant but a very fun touch. Her down b would be her battle transformations, which would work just like dancing in Risky's Revenge - you cycle through dance moves, and then stop on a particular dance move to perform the desired transformation.

Your idea on the other hand is more creative, and would definitely push the envelope more. Whether it would actually work well is hard to say without trying it out, but it would certainly make for a unique fighter concept.

Can I also just say, it's so refreshing to be past the 3DS / Wii U era when every character idea was constrained by whether or not the 3DS could handle it. No limits on Shantae's transformations now!


Stating whether dancing is a good fit for the games or not starts to get into more subjective territory. Some might reasonably feel that it adds a tedious and repetitive interruption to the gameplay. Others might feel with equal justification that fusing in a little rhythmic mini-game enhances the experience, and adds a sense of skill and immersion to what would otherwise be a fairly bland mechanic.

One interesting aspect of game design is how designers give players some choice over the type of challenge they face by rewarding different skills. This video does a good job discussing this (skip to 12:30ish for the relevant part): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9NdAao9y_4. To summarize, Mario games reward platforming skills of course, but they also reward both more skilled and less skilled players for exploring the level. More skilled players who choose to explore can find extra-challenging sequences that yield extra coins or collectibles. Less skilled players who choose to explore can find secret shortcuts to circumvent challenging parts of the levels.

Analogously, Shantae games could reward both platforming skills and manual dancing in a similar way. Players less skilled at platforming could ease the challenge in tricky sections with a well-executed dance, whereas more skilled players will be able to leave dancing on auto and get by on their platforming skills alone.

For those who prefer auto dancing, but also don't want a huge platforming challenge, this compromise would still work out pretty well, since you could still auto dance through most of the game without noticing much of a difficulty penalty. I wouldn't worry that balancing the game this way will make manual dancing feel pointless to players who like it - just receiving the movement/damage buffs will feel rewarding enough for players to have fun executing a mechanic they already enjoy, even if they don't really need its help to get through most areas.

Perhaps sprinkle in a small number of strictly optional sequences throughout the game that require both a big dance buff and a deft platforming hand, as a treat for players who enjoy both manual dancing and punishing platforming challenges.

You may be right that it's a fine line, but if executed well, I think this would be an interesting and fun take on player-controlled dynamic difficulty adjustment.

I am intrigued by your suggestion to think bigger and make Shantae's transformations as versatile as a Kirby copy ability though. Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

The main thing holding back the transformation, and part of why dancing for them is tedious for some, is a lack of utility outside of puzzles and platforming. You have to juggle fighting as a human and taking time transform for mobility more often than you'd like.

Give them a full repertoire of attack moves though, and not only does the manual dance feel more substantial, but it opens up new ways to play for those with an affinity for specific ones, while leaving the option for only quick-shifting for puzzles and fighting as human. Maybe this isn't the best fit for metroidvania play, but more level-based like Half-Genie Hero.

You're misreading me I think. Of course the transformations could be a thing and work well. Pokemon Trainer and Shulk's wheel for his Monaco skills exists. They can be done just fine.

During the time of Sm4sh, those arguments were what I usually saw other people saying about Shantae. Transformations require too much work and they won't give a triple kit to one lowly indie. Around that time (heavy PC vs HGH moveset era), I thought of the same concept as fusions, instant single spell transformations etc, and that concept I met with even more gatekeeping of "couldnt happen". You couldnt have both Shantae and the animal models on the 3DS etc. And then Corrin shows up with his dragon stuff. That's what I'm salty about.

My only legitimate issue with a transformation style kit is I dont see being on neutral special like Shulk's Monado. I cant see Sakurai giving Kirby the ability to copy a full transformation wheel. I could see it closer to Pkmn Trainer/old Zelda with the down special to transform and then have the HGH/Monado menu (Would also mimic the first game needing to press Down to start any dance.)


I saw this concept on a moveset video and I've wanted it ever since. Not necessarily an extra way to transform. Just the option to dance for her taunts to reference all her old dances. I love that. I'd ignore everyone and run to the opposite side of a stage just to dance.


Some really good points. I guess just pants and a ponytail? And Samus mimics PC Shantae a little? Maybe?
Daisy for Risky... I heard of one logical idea for it before and I cant remember.

ZSS holds a Killing Edge (scimitar), pistol and (hair)-whip, plus fighter moves. And the stage is littered with transformative items, so they were pretty much aiming for anything that could be tied to Shantae.

Daisy has a cruise ship, that can pass for the ships Risky normally uses.

 

[Giga Man]

I just finished my Challenger Pack concept for Shantae in Smash!

I'm pretty proud of it. Credits are in this tweet:

https://twitter.com/GigaMan91/status/1220503184843726849

 

[conTAgi0n]

The main thing holding back the transformation, and part of why dancing for them is tedious for some, is a lack of utility outside of puzzles and platforming. You have to juggle fighting as a human and taking time transform for mobility more often than you'd like.

Give them a full repertoire of attack moves though, and not only does the manual dance feel more substantial, but it opens up new ways to play for those with an affinity for specific ones, while leaving the option for only quick-shifting for puzzles and fighting as human. Maybe this isn't the best fit for metroidvania play, but more level-based like Half-Genie Hero.

Technically this isn't a problem with the mechanics of transformation but with the animal forms themselves. But yeah I couldn't agree more that Shantae's animal forms could use a re-work. The Completionist also made this point in that review that R RetrogamerMax posted here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2y--6Ti8fA), and unfortunately the same criticism holds true for Risky's Revenge and Half Genie Hero as well.

The monkey form is pretty fun - in exchange for fighting prowess you become smaller, a better jumper, and gain the ability to climb and even shoot off walls. It wouldn't hurt to bring back the claw swipe from Shantae GBC but otherwise it feels like a pretty fair tradeoff.

The same cannot be said for the rest of her forms though. The elephant form is the most glaring example. It feels cool turning into a powerful elephant, but there's never a good reason to use it other than breaking the few blocks in the game that mandate it. Of course you expect the elephant form to be slower and to have a worse jump, but it also turns out to be much worse for fighting enemies (slow, unwieldy attacks that leave you very vulnerable and do much less damage than rapid-fire hair whips). And again, it isn't just elephant form that has these issues.

This actually kind of makes sense for HGH, which focuses on having a wide variety of very situational transformations that you are constantly hopping in and out of, and a correspondingly simplified transformation mechanic. But I think it would be fun to see Shantae move back to a gameplay model that focuses on just a few transformations (maybe 3-4) that each offer a richer gameplay experience.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Technically this isn't a problem with the mechanics of transformation but with the animal forms themselves. But yeah I couldn't agree more that Shantae's animal forms could use a re-work. The Completionist also made this point in that review that R RetrogamerMax posted here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2y--6Ti8fA), and unfortunately the same criticism holds true for Risky's Revenge and Half Genie Hero as well.

The monkey form is pretty fun - in exchange for fighting prowess you become smaller, a better jumper, and gain the ability to climb and even shoot off walls. It wouldn't hurt to bring back the claw swipe from Shantae GBC but otherwise it feels like a pretty fair tradeoff.

The same cannot be said for the rest of her forms though. The elephant form is the most glaring example. It feels cool turning into a powerful elephant, but there's never a good reason to use it other than breaking the few blocks in the game that mandate it. Of course you expect the elephant form to be slower and to have a worse jump, but it also turns out to be much worse for fighting enemies (slow, unwieldy attacks that leave you very vulnerable and do much less damage than rapid-fire hair whips). And again, it isn't just elephant form that has these issues.

This actually kind of makes sense for HGH, which focuses on having a wide variety of very situational transformations that you are constantly hopping in and out of, and a correspondingly simplified transformation mechanic. But I think it would be fun to see Shantae move back to a gameplay model that focuses on just a few transformations (maybe 3-4) that each offer a richer gameplay experience.

What if we just stayed at the Initial Four of the Normal Shantae series, though the changes could be expained here:
1. Monkey: Keep it mainly the same, though graft the Monkey Claw on it, and allow it to do the wall jump charge. Could take more damage
2. Elephant: Give it "armor", in that if you are an elephant, you take reduced damage from enemies. Give it a scimitar-like charge attack, trunk could function similarly to a graply hair whip, and maybe have its stomp two-legged instead of four.
3. Spider or Mermaid: Spider should be allowed its Spider Venom, a web trap move that'll ensnare an enemy, and a bite attack that can inflict poison damage. Mermaid could probably remain the same, though I'm uncertain.
4. Harpy: Allow Harpy to switch between Flight and Glide. In Glide, you can Divebomb, either striking the enemy head-on, or grabbing it with your talons and forcing it to eat the ground. Claw the enemy and, maybe, allow an attack to blow enemies away in a razor-sharp leaf tornado.

 

[Morning Raven]

Technically this isn't a problem with the mechanics of transformation but with the animal forms themselves. But yeah I couldn't agree more that Shantae's animal forms could use a re-work. The Completionist also made this point in that review that R RetrogamerMax posted here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2y--6Ti8fA), and unfortunately the same criticism holds true for Risky's Revenge and Half Genie Hero as well.

The monkey form is pretty fun - in exchange for fighting prowess you become smaller, a better jumper, and gain the ability to climb and even shoot off walls. It wouldn't hurt to bring back the claw swipe from Shantae GBC but otherwise it feels like a pretty fair tradeoff.

The same cannot be said for the rest of her forms though. The elephant form is the most glaring example. It feels cool turning into a powerful elephant, but there's never a good reason to use it other than breaking the few blocks in the game that mandate it. Of course you expect the elephant form to be slower and to have a worse jump, but it also turns out to be much worse for fighting enemies (slow, unwieldy attacks that leave you very vulnerable and do much less damage than rapid-fire hair whips). And again, it isn't just elephant form that has these issues.

This actually kind of makes sense for HGH, which focuses on having a wide variety of very situational transformations that you are constantly hopping in and out of, and a correspondingly simplified transformation mechanic. But I think it would be fun to see Shantae move back to a gameplay model that focuses on just a few transformations (maybe 3-4) that each offer a richer gameplay experience.

This is one reason why im so excited for Seven Sirens. Seeing how the newt replaced the monkey, I can't wait to see what they decided to replace the others, especially the elephant. We might get the succubus or tiger transformations finally.

As for a game of only 3-4 forms. I'd assume the best selection would be monkey, elephant, mermaid, harpy. Main mobility, tanky combat, aquatic exploration and aerial dynamics. The monkey is pretty much good as is, while the rest need stronger combat options and maybe manuevers. The only thing I'd add to the monkey would be (fusion style) tight rope walking on vines and such for added exploration. Monkey claws are a given.

I like the elephant stomp and charge existing, but the charge needs to not hinder you in combat. Elephant should be tanker and take less damage with a shorter jump. I think a good move would be the ability to grab an enemy and thrash them around (can deal damage to others you hit). Or just other uses with the trunk. Spray water in front or above. Use the trunk to suction yourself to pull or shoot things.

The mermaid can keep the bubbles but should get something like a spin attack and tail whip for close combat. Could also borrow from the crab and use a scallop shell as a shield. Though I think it would be fun to incorporate some kind of 'Siren's Song' to charm or confuse enemies. Like how the HGH starfish will just follow you in adoration.

Harpy needs to not be broken. Maybe a stamina/time limit etc to fly until an upgrade. Or you can only glide/hover at first. I want the talon swipe back. A swooping attack would also be cool or wind gust. A shriek to stun enemies. Feather darts can stay, but a feather barrage to attack downward would be great.

Random thought:

You know, it's kind of weird how the monkey is used to climb flat walls, while the OG spider uses rough terrain in the background. It should be backwards: the monkey being able to climb where there are footings and the spider can stick to flat walls.

 

[Planet Cool]

And if you add all three lords, the argument shifts to why we got three characters from one game again. Can't even claim the lack of swords would placate haters at this point when not even having the triangle plus a bow helps.

No matter how many piled on excuses for why Fire Emblem rep is bad get disproven, people will just fall back and double down on others, like ever-increasing sales requirements that don't apply to series they personally want.

Doesn't help that the arguments of wanting less bland looking heroes and decreasing the amount of fighters actually kind of contradict each other.

I don't want more Fire Emblem characters in Smash simply because I don't like Fire Emblem at all. That's not an excuse, it's a reason. I'd be okay with three or four Fire Emblem reps, provided they all looked and fought differently, but eight is just beyond the pale.

As for my own bias, I don't see the point of him not having shoes.

I definitely see the point of her not having shoes. (Note that I'm not saying I like it!)

I'm a Zelda main who also hates the new look for ultimate because they made her a waifu, took out the archetype I loved, and gave her what should be Shantae's spunk and poses.)

I actually love Ultimate Zelda for those very reasons. Not so much the waifu part, but I love the ALttP/ALBW art direction, and she finally looks like she's having fun instead of being so serious all the time.

 

[zferolie]

Off topic guys, but there was another video game character that had transformations that everyone seems to have forgotten... Kameo. I legit really like this Rare game, one of their only good ones since leaving Nintendo. It really does feel like a good Rare Nintendo game. Plus Kameo was really cute and I liked the transformation skills.

Sadly I never finished the game but going through it now again. I will say I do like how the transformations work. She can select 3 at a time and turns into them, and you actually see her body still inside the form she is in, which is a cool touch.

I prefer Shantae's dancing but I understand how people see them as slowing the game down. However, I think there could be a way to keep the dances and not slow the game down, taking this game as a bit of an example. Have a wheel for the transformations, so you just select it, but instead of everything just stopping, time slows down as you do it, so shantae is dancing while you make your selection and then she transforms.

That probably can't work in smash, but the Wheel thing can, plus, another thing one could take from Kameo is the transformations dont have huge movesets, just like 3-4 attacks. I think thats a good way to balance it in smash. Down B is the transformation, and she can change into lets say 4 animals. Monkey is small and fast, has its claw attack for any A move, and monkey bullet to dash forward for the B move and can climb walls. Elephant is heavy and slow, has the short dash for A attack and ground slam for B attack. Spider is slow but light with high jumps, and has more range options, with poison shot for A attack and Web spit for B attack which can make enemies stick to spots. And finally Harpy is Floaty and slippery, has multiple jumps, has a Claw attack for A attack and a cone feather spread shot for the B attack.

 

[Planet Cool]

Speaking of post-Nintendo Rare, Grabbed by the Ghoulies us underrated.

 

[MeteoRain]

You know after seeing quite a few people's preferences in soundtracks...

Am I alone thinking Barrel O Mermaids would be one of the best fighter reveal themes for Shantae?

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't want more Fire Emblem characters in Smash simply because I don't like Fire Emblem at all. That's not an excuse, it's a reason. I'd be okay with three or four Fire Emblem reps, provided they all looked and fought differently, but eight is just beyond the pale.



I definitely see the point of her not having shoes. (Note that I'm not saying I like it!)



I actually love Ultimate Zelda for those very reasons. Not so much the waifu part, but I love the ALttP/ALBW art direction, and she finally looks like she's having fun instead of being so serious all the time.

And if you had just stuck with that opinion from the beginning, no one would have felt the need to question you, maybe they would have sympathised with you even. But no, instead you brought up a comment about Smash now representing gaming history as a whole in another thread, which somehow implies balanced roster representation when that just ain't true. That's what I mean by an excuse; shaky facts or stats easily molded to fit whatever narrative you need for your case.

Off topic guys, but there was another video game character that had transformations that everyone seems to have forgotten... Kameo. I legit really like this Rare game, one of their only good ones since leaving Nintendo. It really does feel like a good Rare Nintendo game. Plus Kameo was really cute and I liked the transformation skills.

Sadly I never finished the game but going through it now again. I will say I do like how the transformations work. She can select 3 at a time and turns into them, and you actually see her body still inside the form she is in, which is a cool touch.

I prefer Shantae's dancing but I understand how people see them as slowing the game down. However, I think there could be a way to keep the dances and not slow the game down, taking this game as a bit of an example. Have a wheel for the transformations, so you just select it, but instead of everything just stopping, time slows down as you do it, so shantae is dancing while you make your selection and then she transforms.

That probably can't work in smash, but the Wheel thing can, plus, another thing one could take from Kameo is the transformations dont have huge movesets, just like 3-4 attacks. I think thats a good way to balance it in smash. Down B is the transformation, and she can change into lets say 4 animals. Monkey is small and fast, has its claw attack for any A move, and monkey bullet to dash forward for the B move and can climb walls. Elephant is heavy and slow, has the short dash for A attack and ground slam for B attack. Spider is slow but light with high jumps, and has more range options, with poison shot for A attack and Web spit for B attack which can make enemies stick to spots. And finally Harpy is Floaty and slippery, has multiple jumps, has a Claw attack for A attack and a cone feather spread shot for the B attack.

I want someone to answer me this, once and for all without blowing me off with claims of lacking imagination...

How is the elephant supposed to land any hits with short range and slow movement? Dancing in front of them will just get you face-punched, and I don't know how long the web-stun is, but it sounds like anyone with a reflector can make the spider impotent.

 

[conTAgi0n]

This is one reason why im so excited for Seven Sirens. Seeing how the newt replaced the monkey, I can't wait to see what they decided to replace the others, especially the elephant. We might get the succubus or tiger transformations finally.

As for a game of only 3-4 forms. I'd assume the best selection would be monkey, elephant, mermaid, harpy. Main mobility, tanky combat, aquatic exploration and aerial dynamics. The monkey is pretty much good as is, while the rest need stronger combat options and maybe manuevers. The only thing I'd add to the monkey would be (fusion style) tight rope walking on vines and such for added exploration. Monkey claws are a given.

I like the elephant stomp and charge existing, but the charge needs to not hinder you in combat. Elephant should be tanker and take less damage with a shorter jump. I think a good move would be the ability to grab an enemy and thrash them around (can deal damage to others you hit). Or just other uses with the trunk. Spray water in front or above. Use the trunk to suction yourself to pull or shoot things.

The mermaid can keep the bubbles but should get something like a spin attack and tail whip for close combat. Could also borrow from the crab and use a scallop shell as a shield. Though I think it would be fun to incorporate some kind of 'Siren's Song' to charm or confuse enemies. Like how the HGH starfish will just follow you in adoration.

Harpy needs to not be broken. Maybe a stamina/time limit etc to fly until an upgrade. Or you can only glide/hover at first. I want the talon swipe back. A swooping attack would also be cool or wind gust. A shriek to stun enemies. Feather darts can stay, but a feather barrage to attack downward would be great.

Random thought:

You know, it's kind of weird how the monkey is used to climb flat walls, while the OG spider uses rough terrain in the background. It should be backwards: the monkey being able to climb where there are footings and the spider can stick to flat walls.

Oh wow, I didn't know they were replacing the monkey. I haven't seen basically any Seven Sirens info whatsoever. That should be a very interesting change, I wonder how the newt will work.

I want someone to answer me this, once and for all without blowing me off with claims of lacking imagination...

How is the elephant supposed to land any hits with short range and slow movement? Dancing in front of them will just get you face-punched, and I don't know how long the web-stun is, but it sounds like anyone with a reflector can make the spider impotent.

Sounds like you are asking about how the elephant transformation could be made useful in Smash, not in the Shantae games.

To be clear from the outset, I think we are assuming that the elephant form in Smash would large, very slow, very heavy, with very poor jumping, and would have two attacks: the elephant charge and the elephant stomp.

The obvious scenario for this would be two framing and ledge trapping. These moves would likely both offer large, deadly, and lingering hitboxes that could turn a wrong guess at the ledge into an early kill.

I would also say that it's not the end of the world if some of her transformations in Smash aren't useful in competitive 1v1s. There are plenty of other moves in that category, such as Ganon's neutral B and utilt.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Sounds like you are asking about how the elephant transformation could be made useful in Smash, not in the Shantae games.

To be clear from the outset, I think we are assuming that the elephant form in Smash would large, very slow, very heavy, with very poor jumping, and would have two attacks: the elephant charge and the elephant stomp.

The obvious scenario for this would be two framing and ledge trapping. These moves would likely both offer large, deadly, and lingering hitboxes that could turn a wrong guess at the ledge into an early kill.

I would also say that it's not the end of the world if some of her transformations in Smash aren't useful in competitive 1v1s. There are plenty of other moves in that category, such as Ganon's neutral B and utilt.

Honestly, we've had this discussion so many times already.
So, I'd say it's just better to ignore.
Cause it's honestly getting silly at this point.

Trying to explain an idea to someone, who is dead set on vehemently opposing said idea no matter what, is an act in futility.
You're not gonna change anyone's mind. They will keep saying your idea is bad, til the end of time.
So it's much better to let it go...

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh wow, I didn't know they were replacing the monkey. I haven't seen basically any Seven Sirens info whatsoever. That should be a very interesting change, I wonder how the newt will work.



Sounds like you are asking about how the elephant transformation could be made useful in Smash, not in the Shantae games.

To be clear from the outset, I think we are assuming that the elephant form in Smash would large, very slow, very heavy, with very poor jumping, and would have two attacks: the elephant charge and the elephant stomp.

The obvious scenario for this would be two framing and ledge trapping. These moves would likely both offer large, deadly, and lingering hitboxes that could turn a wrong guess at the ledge into an early kill.

I would also say that it's not the end of the world if some of her transformations in Smash aren't useful in competitive 1v1s. There are plenty of other moves in that category, such as Ganon's neutral B and utilt.

But that's the thing. If you're only using the elephant for the attacks, and not any of it's traits, why not just cut out the middleman and have the dance replace certain human moves with elephant attacks? All the elephant utility and none of the baggage.

For spider, I think human Shantae is good enough at zoning as it is, so I prefer to have it focus on grabs with silk, an extension of it's use in Half-Genie Hero.

Oh, and about the newt, you just press a button in the air to air-dash, and can climb walls by dashing into them, then jump off and air dash again, like Hollow Knight's Mothwing Cloak.

 

[Dukefire]

Using the Instant transformation type for shantae does fit with Smash chaotic and fast nature. Again, when creature she transforms into can be chosen by a selection wheel like how shulk selects his monado arts

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Actually, I'm wondering something.

Spoiler: Warning: Tinfoil Armor Time!

I know that there's no rules for non-Nintendo appearing characters being allowed in Smash, but what if Sakurai were to skip over Sora since he knew that he'd have to add in Disney characters while Nintendo themselves are affiliating with Universial with the Mario theme park? I know as well that there was a Bowser cameo in WIR, but I don't think he comes back in the sequel, since Universal has the movie rights to them and, maybe out of a grudge for this slight-of-hand trick, they embargo Nintendo?

 

[WingedSupernova]

Actually, I'm wondering something.

Spoiler: Warning: Tinfoil Armor Time!

I know that there's no rules for non-Nintendo appearing characters being allowed in Smash, but what if Sakurai were to skip over Sora since he knew that he'd have to add in Disney characters while Nintendo themselves are affiliating with Universial with the Mario theme park? I know as well that there was a Bowser cameo in WIR, but I don't think he comes back in the sequel, since Universal has the movie rights to them and, maybe out of a grudge for this slight-of-hand trick, they embargo Nintendo?

I think that would be entirely a Nintendo move if that were the case. I doubt Sakurai would have that sort of insider knowledge of Nintendo's corporate business politics when he's basically a freelance developer right now.

 

[LaBeteNoire]

I think that would be entirely a Nintendo move if that were the case. I doubt Sakurai would have that sort of insider knowledge of Nintendo's corporate business politics when he's basically a freelance developer right now.

But Nintendo would have known when they first laid out the selection of characters that Sakurai could choose from. So It's possible Sora wouldn't have even been an option since they were likely planning all of this with Universal for a while.

However I'm still not clear on Sora's rights. Lots of people say that he is owned by Square, but the franchise as a whole has some form of duel ownership between them and the mouse, meaning that tho they can use him, it can't be in a KH capacity.

Like I said I don't know if this is actually the case, and based on his character design I would say Disney has some ownership to him, but who actually knows.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

But Nintendo would have known when they first laid out the selection of characters that Sakurai could choose from. So It's possible Sora wouldn't have even been an option since they were likely planning all of this with Universal for a while.

However I'm still not clear on Sora's rights. Lots of people say that he is owned by Square, but the franchise as a whole has some form of duel ownership between them and the mouse, meaning that tho they can use him, it can't be in a KH capacity.

Like I said I don't know if this is actually the case, and based on his character design I would say Disney has some ownership to him, but who actually knows.

Apparently, if TV Tropes were to be believed, and the promo images we've seen months ago is true, then Disney owns all of Kingdom Hearts. And that Square-Enix is regulated to simply cameos and distribution.

 

[MajestyIndigo]

Well, talking about Disney.
I doubt they liked the director of Universal Studio Japan's line during the recent presentation of the Nintendo World theme park :
" If Disney is the dreamworld then USJ is the awake world where we will energize you and make you feel alive ". ^^

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, talking about Disney.
I doubt they liked the director of Universal Studio Japan's line during the recent presentation of the Nintendo World theme park :
" If Disney is the dreamworld then USJ is the awake world where we will energize you and make you feel alive ". ^^

Universal Studios of Japan is the company that makes all those armour collabs for Monster Hunter? They're always called USJ but never really made the connection.

 

[zferolie]

I don't think Sora is happening, because of both Disney AND Square. both seem.... very hard to work with, given their lack of music and stuff...

I want someone to answer me this, once and for all without blowing me off with claims of lacking imagination...

How is the elephant supposed to land any hits with short range and slow movement? Dancing in front of them will just get you face-punched, and I don't know how long the web-stun is, but it sounds like anyone with a reflector can make the spider impotent.

Well, for starters Elephant would have a ton of super armor with the charge and slam, and do lots of damage. also they could be heavier so normal attacks don't knock her so far. But most of the transformations break if she is grabbed, for balance reasons. this way you have to get close to the elephant to grab her, but she has lots of power with her attacks, and slam knocks people away slightly or trembles them. downside is that jumping is a bit hard as she jumps on the lowers side and fast falls like Falco.

As for Spider, the web traps I think could be like banana peels somewhat. they don't trip but the stick people in place unless they mash out. the poison could be simular to plants poison or Arsen's burn, and travel like a slight arc, or holding B charges it that it fires faster and poisons more. Spider has very high jumps and slightly fastish ground speed.

Monkey is very small, Pichu size at most, and very nimble. Claw is a very fast jab close range. Low damage but very high priority. Monkey bullet is like a Pikachu skull bash but instant. Great for horizontal recovery.

Harpy is very bad on the ground, slippery like Luigi and a bit slow. In the air she is one of the best, claw has very wide arc in frount of her, full 180 degrees and very fast. Feather shot lets her shot an arc of 5 feathers in a direction she chooses, that don't do amacing knock back but good damage and great poke. Plus she has 4 jumps like Kirby.

As for Shantae's other B moves(I would say thats her Down B), Regular B could be Pike Ball, like a Megaman Leaf shield but stays around her and she can't shoot it out. Side B Puff Ball. Shantae casts out a little cload, that she could then attack to send it farther out. after a few moments or when it hits someone it zaps them for a lot of damage. Up B is Cannon shot. She pulls out Risky's canon and fires straight down up to 3 times. Afterward she pulls out Risky's Hat and floats down with it. I felt she needed to have 1 move from Riskies Revenge.

 

[WingedSupernova]

I personally think Sora will show up somehow, but not playable. He'd be either a mii swordfighter or part of a Kingdom Hearts spirit event which would include only KH characters.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think Sora is happening, because of both Disney AND Square. both seem.... very hard to work with, given their lack of music and stuff...



Well, for starters Elephant would have a ton of super armor with the charge and slam, and do lots of damage. also they could be heavier so normal attacks don't knock her so far. But most of the transformations break if she is grabbed, for balance reasons. this way you have to get close to the elephant to grab her, but she has lots of power with her attacks, and slam knocks people away slightly or trembles them. downside is that jumping is a bit hard as she jumps on the lowers side and fast falls like Falco.

As for Spider, the web traps I think could be like banana peels somewhat. they don't trip but the stick people in place unless they mash out. the poison could be simular to plants poison or Arsen's burn, and travel like a slight arc, or holding B charges it that it fires faster and poisons more. Spider has very high jumps and slightly fastish ground speed.

Monkey is very small, Pichu size at most, and very nimble. Claw is a very fast jab close range. Low damage but very high priority. Monkey bullet is like a Pikachu skull bash but instant. Great for horizontal recovery.

Harpy is very bad on the ground, slippery like Luigi and a bit slow. In the air she is one of the best, claw has very wide arc in frount of her, full 180 degrees and very fast. Feather shot lets her shot an arc of 5 feathers in a direction she chooses, that don't do amacing knock back but good damage and great poke. Plus she has 4 jumps like Kirby.

As for Shantae's other B moves(I would say thats her Down B), Regular B could be Pike Ball, like a Megaman Leaf shield but stays around her and she can't shoot it out. Side B Puff Ball. Shantae casts out a little cload, that she could then attack to send it farther out. after a few moments or when it hits someone it zaps them for a lot of damage. Up B is Cannon shot. She pulls out Risky's canon and fires straight down up to 3 times. Afterward she pulls out Risky's Hat and floats down with it. I felt she needed to have 1 move from Riskies Revenge.

Well, K. Rool also has "tons of super armour" and power but if that was all he had people could beat him purely by shielding and punishing. K. Rool has grabs to deter that and projectiles to discourage just staying away from him all the time. Why exactly do I need to approach the elephant for a grab when waiting for it to come to me works way better?

 

[zferolie]

Well, K. Rool also has "tons of super armour" and power but if that was all he had people could beat him purely by shielding and punishing. K. Rool has grabs to deter that and projectiles to discourage just staying away from him all the time. Why exactly do I need to approach the elephant for a grab when waiting for it to come to me works way better?

Just was giving an example. I wanted each transformation to have different strengths and weaknesses. as others have said, Elephant would be best in more team or multiplayer matches, letting you set up easier with it. And Shantae has projectilies of her own with pike balls and puff balls, plus the spider attacks, and her Hair attacks being a disjointed hitbox as well to help her out

 

[conTAgi0n]

But that's the thing. If you're only using the elephant for the attacks, and not any of it's traits, why not just cut out the middleman and have the dance replace certain human moves with elephant attacks? All the elephant utility and none of the baggage.

For spider, I think human Shantae is good enough at zoning as it is, so I prefer to have it focus on grabs with silk, an extension of it's use in Half-Genie Hero.

Oh, and about the newt, you just press a button in the air to air-dash, and can climb walls by dashing into them, then jump off and air dash again, like Hollow Knight's Mothwing Cloak.

The disagreement here boils down to different prioritization. You are asking for a competitive gameplay justification for something whose primary justification is not based on competitive gameplay.

The primary justification for Shantae transforming into an elephant (or other animal forms) is because that's what most faithfully represents how she plays in the Shantae games. Plus, turning into an elephant or a monkey sounds inherently fun. From there we ask, can we make this competitively viable as well? Maybe even competitively interesting? Creating a faithful representation on the one hand and a compelling competitive fighter on the other is a balancing act, to be sure - but for something as essential to Shantae's gameplay as transformations, the priority (at least a lot of people) is faithfulness to the home series.

That said, there is a solid justification in pure gameplay terms for NOT cutting out the middleman, as you put it. For the sake of understanding each other properly, I feel it's important to stress that this is not the primary reason for preferring full transformations.

So with that lengthy disclaimer, the answer to your question is this: elephant bash and elephant stomp would naturally pack some serious damage and knockback, while also having huge hitboxes and likely generous super armor as well. For balance reasons, you do not want to give a light, nimble character with proficient zoning capabilities constant access to moves like that. Imagine if Squirtle could use Charizard's kill moves without switching out, or if Sheik had access to Ganondorf's smash attacks. If Shantae is going to have access to what basically amount to souped up superheavy kill moves, then it makes sense from a gameplay perspective that they should be locked behind a transformation that forces her both to be more predictable, and to take on some of the disadvantages that characterize superheavies. "All of the elephant utility and none of the baggage" is actually the perfect summary for why Shantae SHOULD have to transform to use those elephant moves.

It's also worth noting that Smash Bros is balanced for more gameplay scenarios than just 1v1 between skilled players. There are plenty of situations in chaotic multiplayer matches on crazy stages where being a super heavy elephant with nothing but crowd clearing moves would be helpful, especially in a player group where not everyone is a competitive guru.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

The disagreement here boils down to different prioritization. You are asking for a competitive gameplay justification for something whose primary justification is not based on competitive gameplay.

The primary justification for Shantae transforming into an elephant (or other animal forms) is because that's what most faithfully represents how she plays in the Shantae games. Plus, turning into an elephant or a monkey sounds inherently fun. From there we ask, can we make this competitively viable as well? Maybe even competitively interesting? Creating a faithful representation on the one hand and a compelling competitive fighter on the other is a balancing act, to be sure - but for something as essential to Shantae's gameplay as transformations, the priority (at least a lot of people) is faithfulness to the home series.

That said, there is a solid justification in pure gameplay terms for NOT cutting out the middleman, as you put it. For the sake of understanding each other properly, I feel it's important to stress that this is not the primary reason for preferring full transformations.

So with that lengthy disclaimer, the answer to your question is this: elephant bash and elephant stomp would naturally pack some serious damage and knockback, while also having huge hitboxes and likely generous super armor as well. For balance reasons, you do not want to give a light, nimble character with proficient zoning capabilities constant access to moves like that. Imagine if Squirtle could use Charizard's kill moves without switching out, or if Sheik had access to Ganondorf's smash attacks. If Shantae is going to have access to what basically amount to souped up superheavy kill moves, then it makes sense from a gameplay perspective that they should be locked behind a transformation that forces her both to be more predictable, and to take on some of the disadvantages that characterize superheavies. "All of the elephant utility and none of the baggage" is actually the perfect summary for why Shantae SHOULD have to transform to use those elephant moves.

It's also worth noting that Smash Bros is balanced for more gameplay scenarios than just 1v1 between skilled players. There are plenty of situations in chaotic multiplayer matches on crazy stages where being a super heavy elephant with nothing but crowd clearing moves would be helpful, especially in a player group where not everyone is a competitive guru.

Honesty, if/when Sakurai chooses her for a DLC pack, we'll see how he sees Shantae play. It'll be quite fun, either way. The video is essentially my mood about all this:

 

[RidleyKraid187]

The disagreement here boils down to different prioritization. You are asking for a competitive gameplay justification for something whose primary justification is not based on competitive gameplay.

The primary justification for Shantae transforming into an elephant (or other animal forms) is because that's what most faithfully represents how she plays in the Shantae games. Plus, turning into an elephant or a monkey sounds inherently fun. From there we ask, can we make this competitively viable as well? Maybe even competitively interesting? Creating a faithful representation on the one hand and a compelling competitive fighter on the other is a balancing act, to be sure - but for something as essential to Shantae's gameplay as transformations, the priority (at least a lot of people) is faithfulness to the home series.

That said, there is a solid justification in pure gameplay terms for NOT cutting out the middleman, as you put it. For the sake of understanding each other properly, I feel it's important to stress that this is not the primary reason for preferring full transformations.

So with that lengthy disclaimer, the answer to your question is this: elephant bash and elephant stomp would naturally pack some serious damage and knockback, while also having huge hitboxes and likely generous super armor as well. For balance reasons, you do not want to give a light, nimble character with proficient zoning capabilities constant access to moves like that. Imagine if Squirtle could use Charizard's kill moves without switching out, or if Sheik had access to Ganondorf's smash attacks. If Shantae is going to have access to what basically amount to souped up superheavy kill moves, then it makes sense from a gameplay perspective that they should be locked behind a transformation that forces her both to be more predictable, and to take on some of the disadvantages that characterize superheavies. "All of the elephant utility and none of the baggage" is actually the perfect summary for why Shantae SHOULD have to transform to use those elephant moves.

It's also worth noting that Smash Bros is balanced for more gameplay scenarios than just 1v1 between skilled players. There are plenty of situations in chaotic multiplayer matches on crazy stages where being a super heavy elephant with nothing but crowd clearing moves would be helpful, especially in a player group where not everyone is a competitive guru.

Why not just adjust the damage on the Elephant’s moves or add a bunch of startup? Say if we use Elephant just for Smash attacks, if you don’t charge it Shantae will still do a short dance to transform, about 30 frames or so before the attack actually lands?

And yeah, the Elephant may be big but it doesn’t need to be overwhelmingly powerful. There can be light, nimble characters with powerful Smashes, just look at Bayonetta. I think as long as you aren’t having her, say, Down Air into an Elephant or something like that, you could have her transform for certain attacks and movements without needing to do a full on Pokémon Trainer gimmick.

 

[meleebrawler]

The disagreement here boils down to different prioritization. You are asking for a competitive gameplay justification for something whose primary justification is not based on competitive gameplay.

The primary justification for Shantae transforming into an elephant (or other animal forms) is because that's what most faithfully represents how she plays in the Shantae games. Plus, turning into an elephant or a monkey sounds inherently fun. From there we ask, can we make this competitively viable as well? Maybe even competitively interesting? Creating a faithful representation on the one hand and a compelling competitive fighter on the other is a balancing act, to be sure - but for something as essential to Shantae's gameplay as transformations, the priority (at least a lot of people) is faithfulness to the home series.

That said, there is a solid justification in pure gameplay terms for NOT cutting out the middleman, as you put it. For the sake of understanding each other properly, I feel it's important to stress that this is not the primary reason for preferring full transformations.

So with that lengthy disclaimer, the answer to your question is this: elephant bash and elephant stomp would naturally pack some serious damage and knockback, while also having huge hitboxes and likely generous super armor as well. For balance reasons, you do not want to give a light, nimble character with proficient zoning capabilities constant access to moves like that. Imagine if Squirtle could use Charizard's kill moves without switching out, or if Sheik had access to Ganondorf's smash attacks. If Shantae is going to have access to what basically amount to souped up superheavy kill moves, then it makes sense from a gameplay perspective that they should be locked behind a transformation that forces her both to be more predictable, and to take on some of the disadvantages that characterize superheavies. "All of the elephant utility and none of the baggage" is actually the perfect summary for why Shantae SHOULD have to transform to use those elephant moves.

It's also worth noting that Smash Bros is balanced for more gameplay scenarios than just 1v1 between skilled players. There are plenty of situations in chaotic multiplayer matches on crazy stages where being a super heavy elephant with nothing but crowd clearing moves would be helpful, especially in a player group where not everyone is a competitive guru.

The idea of time limits and cooldowns never occurred to you? Harpy could actually be quite degenerate if there wasn't a cap on how much it's air mobility could be used, you could pretty much just hold a lead against many characters by jumping/flying out of reach, shifting back quickly to use a ground move or projectile before taking off again. Jigglypuff can move in the air a lot and stay there for a long time, but is balanced out by short range and slow falling that makes it harder to recharge against an aggressive opponent.

You would not have ''constant'' access to the elephant attacks or any other transformation with this in mind, and like what RidleyKraid187 said above, the attacks would likely be balanced as is by being slower and more punishable than whatever move Shantae would normally use as a human. What can be done to help keep them in check that is also faithful would be to only allow the dances to be performed on the ground, so that the opponent can slow down her shenanigans with good play. You can cancel a transformation in the air but that's it.

Nothing beats Monkey and Harpy for mobility, making it kind of pointless to use Elephant and Spider to move around (except for the latter using a tether most likely). The key difference with Pokemon Trainer is that the Pokemon don't strictly adhere to a role that would make them too predictable, even if their weaknesses are clear. Squirtle has surprisingly strong smashes even if they're hard to land and can push people around with Water Gun to make space, good for Ivysaur who can either play swordie with vines and bud explosions, or zoner with Razor Leaf, and Charizard moves surprisingly fast for a fighter with his power, while also not being too shabby in the damage raising and combo department.

I'm not much of a believer in faithfulness when it gets in the way of fun gameplay. You won't tell the fighting game characters not to use their specials in the air because they couldn't in their own games, or that Ridley should be bigger to match his most important appearances.

 

[Planet Cool]

And if you had just stuck with that opinion from the beginning, no one would have felt the need to question you, maybe they would have sympathised with you even. But no, instead you brought up a comment about Smash now representing gaming history as a whole in another thread, which somehow implies balanced roster representation when that just ain't true. That's what I mean by an excuse; shaky facts or stats easily molded to fit whatever narrative you need for your case.

Are you saying I can't dislike Fire Emblem and think it's a little silly that it now has as many reps as Pokemon? I think that's a perfectly valid critique, no matter how I personally feel about the franchise.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

The idea of time limits and cooldowns never occurred to you? Harpy could actually be quite degenerate if there wasn't a cap on how much it's air mobility could be used, you could pretty much just hold a lead against many characters by jumping/flying out of reach, shifting back quickly to use a ground move or projectile before taking off again. Jigglypuff can move in the air a lot and stay there for a long time, but is balanced out by short range and slow falling that makes it harder to recharge against an aggressive opponent.

You would not have ''constant'' access to the elephant attacks or any other transformation with this in mind, and like what RidleyKraid187 said above, the attacks would likely be balanced as is by being slower and more punishable than whatever move Shantae would normally use as a human. What can be done to help keep them in check that is also faithful would be to only allow the dances to be performed on the ground, so that the opponent can slow down her shenanigans with good play. You can cancel a transformation in the air but that's it.

Nothing beats Monkey and Harpy for mobility, making it kind of pointless to use Elephant and Spider to move around (except for the latter using a tether most likely). The key difference with Pokemon Trainer is that the Pokemon don't strictly adhere to a role that would make them too predictable, even if their weaknesses are clear. Squirtle has surprisingly strong smashes even if they're hard to land and can push people around with Water Gun to make space, good for Ivysaur who can either play swordie with vines and bud explosions, or zoner with Razor Leaf, and Charizard moves surprisingly fast for a fighter with his power, while also not being too shabby in the damage raising and combo department.

I'm not much of a believer in faithfulness when it gets in the way of fun gameplay. You won't tell the fighting game characters not to use their specials in the air because they couldn't in their own games, or that Ridley should be bigger to match his most important appearances.

That is a big problem when talking about Shantae's transformations: They usually are in to fill a utility, more often than not. The monkey can climb walls and run fast, the elephant can charge into something, the spider crawls on background elements, and the harpy flies around. I can see why the Pirate's Curse set was preferred since it relied on more simple mechanics. Though I think there could be some liberties taken with the transformations if Sakurai wants to emphasize Shantae's magical dances, at the same time, she could also function well with her Mana Bar. Actually, that might be a liberty with her transformations: it drains her mana, so she can't just stay as her Elephant Form and be as knockable as either Giga Bowser or Shield Shulk. Or if she's out mid-air in her Harpy form, she freefalls. A mid-Monkey Bullet mana drain would result in a tripped up Shantae, and a stray Venom Spray could cause Shantae to poison herself if she runs out of Mana.

 

[meleebrawler]

Are you saying I can't dislike Fire Emblem and think it's a little silly that it now has as many reps as Pokemon? I think that's a perfectly valid critique, no matter how I personally feel about the franchise.

Just lead with the first statement, and most people won't get mad at whatever else you have to say.

 

[Biometal]

Uh oh.
Time to dip out for a while again. See you all during the next Direct.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Why not just adjust the damage on the Elephant’s moves or add a bunch of startup? Say if we use Elephant just for Smash attacks, if you don’t charge it Shantae will still do a short dance to transform, about 30 frames or so before the attack actually lands?

And yeah, the Elephant may be big but it doesn’t need to be overwhelmingly powerful. There can be light, nimble characters with powerful Smashes, just look at Bayonetta. I think as long as you aren’t having her, say, Down Air into an Elephant or something like that, you could have her transform for certain attacks and movements without needing to do a full on Pokémon Trainer gimmick.

So, let's back up for a second.

meleebrawler asked for an example of a competitively viable use for a full elephant transformation. I answered that 2-framing and ledge trapping would be good examples, but that it is fine if there is no competitive application for the elephant transformation.

meleebrawler then followed up by asking why Shantae should have to change forms to use the elephant moves. I first stressed that the real reason has nothing to do competitive balance, but then answered that restricting a nimble zoner's access to big deadly hitboxes might nevertheless be a valid balance-based consideration.

So in light of that conversational background, before giving a direct answer to your question, RidleyKraid187 , I want to stress again that my desire for Shantae to have a fully-fledged transformation mechanic is not driven by balance considerations. Basically you are right - if our goal was to keep the elephant moves without giving Shantae full transformations, then yes, certainly we could accomplish that without breaking game balance, so long as we tweak the damage and frame data appropriately. But that would be the opposite of my goal in designing Shantae's moveset. My goal would be to include - not exclude - transformations, and then balance around that. Why? Simply because I think full transformations would be more fun and more fitting for Shantae.

That said....... I do think the compromises you would have to make to elephant bash and elephant stomp would be kind of a bummer. Charging someone down or slamming on top of them as a big elephant should feel like you are hitting them with a truck. I also still am firmly of the opinion that making Shantae transform into an elephant during the move's windup and then transform back during the move's cooldown would feel awkward and clunky. That would be much too busy for the startup and cooldown animations of a fighting game move in my opinion. Yes, it's somewhat subjective, and it's hard to know for sure without being able to test it. It's possible, though I think unlikely, that it could work more smoothly than I am imagining. But again, I'd rather have the full transformations anyway.

EDIT: Just to be extra extra extra clear, I am NOT trying to argue here that single move transformations (e.g. transforming into an elephant just for smash attacks) could not work (even if I am skeptical of the concept). I am simply pointing out that A) there could in theory be competitive merit to some of Shantae's transformations, and B) Shantae's transformations do not need a competitive balance-based justification anyway - they could still make for a great moveset concept even if they wouldn't have a role in a competitive setting.

EDIT 2: meleebrawler I missed your last post, but RidleyKraid187 made a similar point, just in a less aggressively-worded way, so most of what I say here applies to your post as well. As for whether harpy form would be degenerate, that is getting a little carried away. There is so much variation in how transformations could be implemented and balanced, there is no basis for such an argument. Harpy form could be broken, useless, or anything in between depending on the particulars of how they implement it. As for the "constant" access thing, this is just a semantic difference, and not worth getting hung up on.

 

[WingedSupernova]

Uh oh.
Time to dip out for a while again. See you all during the next Direct.

Was there some sort of major leak that just happened or something?

 

[Biometal]

Was there some sort of major leak that just happened or something?

It's the tension beginning to build up in here again; heated discussions. Besides, I'd rather do something else if the same questions and topics from dozens of pages ago keep getting recycled over and over again. We don't have much to go off right now other than doing exactly that---redoing the same topics again every few pages until either WF does something Shantae-related or Smash news occurs.