Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[zferolie]

I spent the whole day making this. Hope you enjoy my sensible (and not so sensible) choices for Fighter Pass 2. I'll also be making a video using this.

Spoiler: My random FP2

View attachment 259108

I may need to steal that... do you have a template so others can do this?

Interesting choices for miis.... but man Geno as a mii fighter, thats cold

 

[WingedSupernova]

I may need to steal that... do you have a template so others can do this?

Interesting choices for miis.... but man Geno as a mii fighter, thats cold

Sorry if it seems cold, but I personally think it's a great fit for him lol.
Here's the template:

Spoiler: Template

 

[zferolie]

Sorry if it seems cold, but I personally think it's a great fit for him lol.
Here's the template:

Spoiler: Template

View attachment 259125

Its fine, its just i can imagine the salt if after aall this geno is just a mii costume again. Thanks for the template, i will work on that this week. We all know Shantae will be on it though

 

[Morning Raven]

Actually, speaking of dancing mechanics, what if there was a way to switch between Auto-Dancing and Manual Dancing in-game? Like Auto-Dancing works similarly as it does in Half-Genie Hero, in that you can simply hold the dance button, then select an animal to transform into. Whereas when you use Manual Dancing, it works similarly to GBC Shantae's Dancing mechanic. While Auto-Dancing is used for the essential animal dances in-game, Manual Dancing is more used in puzzles and optional dances, either utility-based like healing/destroying or transforming into a secret creature (eg. a Tinkerbat), or the Auto-Dance works more like the Weapon Wheel in numerous games, where favorites are saved into the Weapon Wheel to use on-the-fly?

It could work in a diegetic way, where when a dance is used more often, Shantae can instantly tap into the magic more easily, though you could obviously move your personal favorites into the slots for easier access.

Honestly, that's the basis of how I've thought about the lore to explain the gameplay changes and "new game syndrome". First it was rhythmic dancing with lots of poses. Then just the final pose for each form. Then a single dance for any form. Shantae does (near) instant transformation now because she's been honing her genie magic and getting stronger. She "forgets" her other transformations each game because she's ~~so forgetful~~ trying to improve her magic ability, so she's limiting herself to improve on one dance form a time. When you gain the new dances in RR/HGH, she's gaining the inspiration to make the new technique work.

I might be in the great minority here, but I personally preferred the Transformation dances from the original game. It was basically their version of the ocarina songs from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. I just loved that the ocarina was a tool you could use like you would in real life (I even used to look up how to play different songs on it like the Simpson's theme)

I can understand those who say it hurts the pacing of the game or whatever, but for me it made things more immersive. It felt like a ritual you needed to do to pull off something impressive. Like a wizard reciting a magical chant to perform a spell, or a DBZ character charging up before unleashing their attack.

They just made the game feel a bit more real because you actually had to do something to transform. And it made dancing part of Shantae's tool kit rather than the touch of character flavor that it is now.

Minority but not alone. I'll boot up my 3DS just to mess around with the dancing. Whether or not to warp around. God, I miss the ocarina songs add it is. I wish Skyward Sword did anything like that for the harpy so Fi had
a reason to sing all those random songs. I miss the dancing to. (Though I do think it needs the HGH world pausing so you don't get interrupted by enemies constantly)

I do think there should be both styles in some way. Like metroidvania platforming should be fusion style. The main animals and abilities. Like, I can see why the instant ability is important for that. I've played Hollow Knight recently and see how it can be incorporated well. But important plot or puzzle solving could require the old dance. Like needing to speak with a lingering ghost. Or a "detect magic" type of spell. The heal and obliterate etc should require the extra inputs though (and different routines for different strengths)

Four words: Water Temple Water Levels. If the magic of using the ocarina hasn't thoroughly extinguished for you by the time you finish that dungeon, you have the patience of a saint. And though the ocarina remains an important tool in the following game, it's use is nonetheless cut down quite a bit. Then the Wind Waker had to go and make it essential for the simple act of steering.

It is very much possible to have too much of a good thing.

The Water Temple requires you to do a full rotation twice to beat it. Changing the levels five times minimum. But that's all you have to do. Any extra rotations is you missing stuff on your own. It's really easy to get lost, but also easy to finish if you go everywhere you can while the water is at any particular level. Saint level patience helps significantly though.

Wind Waker shouldn't even be an argument because of where you can warp. Wind direction is only required in the very beginning. Afterwards you have access to free roam. Soon after you can get warping. Unless you need the very specific far bottom row and far eastern column of quadrants, you can reach everywhere fairly quickly you ever need by setting the wind to NW and never touch it again. And the command melody and prayer hymns worked well, certainly something Shantae could make use of, even a little.

 

[meleebrawler]

The Water Temple requires you to do a full rotation twice to beat it. Changing the levels five times minimum. But that's all you have to do. Any extra rotations is you missing stuff on your own. It's really easy to get lost, but also easy to finish if you go everywhere you can while the water is at any particular level. Saint level patience helps significantly though.

Wind Waker shouldn't even be an argument because of where you can warp. Wind direction is only required in the very beginning. Afterwards you have access to free roam. Soon after you can get warping. Unless you need the very specific far bottom row and far eastern column of quadrants, you can reach everywhere fairly quickly you ever need by setting the wind to NW and never touch it again. And the command melody and prayer hymns worked well, certainly something Shantae could make use of, even a little.

Remind me not to play a game designed by you, if I have to consult a guide in advance to minimize frustration with the mechanics you put in it. Nobody should make a game under the assumption that everyone will know the most optimal way of playing it from the beginning.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Four words: Water Temple Water Levels. If the magic of using the ocarina hasn't thoroughly extinguished for you by the time you finish that dungeon, you have the patience of a saint. And though the ocarina remains an important tool in the following game, it's use is nonetheless cut down quite a bit. Then the Wind Waker had to go and make it essential for the simple act of steering.

It is very much possible to have too much of a good thing.

I actually loved reusing the Ocarina a lot like that, so...

The Water Temple was my second favorite after the Shadow Temple for the adult ones. I actually found it a lot better than Swamp Palace as is, and ten times better than Great Bay Temple, which was very difficult to use Zora Link.

Oddly enough I found the Master Quest version more annoying, but the puzzles in it were actually worse than a near literal case of "rinse and repeat" because of how many Time Blocks you dealt with, along with massive magic consumption and needing to be in the perfect spot. Don't get me wrong, I beat both versions 100%, but MQ was naturally harder. Except Jabu Jabu's Belly. Anyway, worth noting that the GCN controller was hard to use.

Also, long time no see everyone. I'm sure some might notice something different about me. Maybe you saw an old name of mine, like Legendary Spirit Tamer.

 

[meleebrawler]

My point is, there's only so much you can do with music mechanics like these before they get overly intrusive and clash with the gameplay. Eventually, they got phased out of Zelda too.

If Wayforward had decided to double down on the dancing, we probably wouldn't be playing platformers and metroidvanias today.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

My point is, there's only so much you can do with music mechanics like these before they get overly intrusive and clash with the gameplay. Eventually, they got phased out of Zelda too.

If Wayforward had decided to double down on the dancing, we probably wouldn't be playing platformers and metroidvanias today.

An alternate timeline where Shantae is a DDR-based game
I don't believe I see a problem in this?

 

[Dukefire]

While we do know that the fighters for Season 2 Fighters Pass has already been chosen, here is a artwork to have some hope in the dark
Artist: mana chan

Spoiler: Spirits hope

 

[M00NFIRE94]

[[[edit]]]

 

[kazoka122]

Even Zero wants to see Shantae playable (6:30 in the video).

Couldn't have said it better myself. "She checks all the boxes"

 

[Morning Raven]

Remind me not to play a game designed by you, if I have to consult a guide in advance to minimize frustration with the mechanics you put in it. Nobody should make a game under the assumption that everyone will know the most optimal way of playing it from the beginning.

But these 'optimizations' are not something needed to know from the beginning. They're not even available at the beginning, but halfway through the game. It's just taking the time to think about what you're trying to do.

Spoiler: but I'll put further off topic Zelda ramblings in here

I figured out the WW trick when I was 10 because I noticed I kept needing to go essentially NW after warping. And you find warping easily because the cyclone is just south of Windfall, designed to be easily found. It just requires the bow before you can unlock it. It was on return play throughs that I learned you have to take his photo first before you shoot him etc.

The Water Temple, yes I know most people will take more than the required 5 changes, I certainly did. (I even got stuck on the Fire and Shadow Temples for several hours). That doesn't mean the mechanic of using the ocarina was the issue. The dungeon being extremely easy to get lost in, and punishing brute force explorers are the hang ups. And most people complain about using the menu to change the iron boots than the water system itself. But the remake has the water levels labeled and the iron boots wearable from a button press. And it changed the camera angle at the middle level since everyone kept missing the key in the central tower. But those changes don't remove the water changing mechanic and all its puzzles, just makes it easier to accomplish. (Actually, you dont even have to memorize the songs in the 3DS remakes, since you can have the song notes open on the other screen when you go to play them.) It's just a dungeon that's better if you take your time and plan ahead, instead of rushing, first or 10th time.

Even Zero wants to see Shantae playable (6:30 in the video).

I really appreciate all the points he makes about her. Though I do like the irony of mentioning a "small" character having such a "big audience".

 

[Inoj]

Alex.EXE also mentioned Shantae in his Fighters Pass Volume 2 video.

 

[WingedSupernova]

Alex.EXE also mentioned Shantae in his Fighters Pass Volume 2 video.

Man I wish people wouldn't clickbait with characters in the thumbnail if all they say in the end is: "Nah, not likely. Next!"

 

[LaBeteNoire]

Well, depending on how much you believe dev interviews, Doom Guy may be out of the running. This could be another Grant Kirkhope situation, but this guy did a lot more denying than Grant did.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

So the arbitrary power struggle in the fanbase continues.

Among Smash Tubers, it has also become a trend to mock and shame those who disagree with Byleth.
Apparently you're obligated to agree and be happy with everything, unconditionally. <_<

 

[TOY the Gamer]

Man I wish people wouldn't clickbait with characters in the thumbnail if all they say in the end is: "Nah, not likely. Next!"

Haven't seen it, but did he really say that?

 

[Biometal]

Even Zero wants to see Shantae playable (6:30 in the video).

I usually see him either pronounce her name as "sh" "Anne" "tea" or ignore her entirely whenever talking about polls that she's on, etc. I wonder what changed.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, depending on how much you believe dev interviews, Doom Guy may be out of the running. This could be another Grant Kirkhope situation, but this guy did a lot more denying than Grant did.

If there's "more denying", it seems more due the interviewer being more insistent with the questions. The interviewee's answers aren't very definitive and we all know they can't say there was an agreement on this even if it was true.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

I usually see him either pronounce her name as "sh" "Anne" "tea" or ignore her entirely whenever talking about polls that she's on, etc. I wonder what changed.

If I were to wager donuts, I think it's that he's now realizing the crowd behind her, which is indeed getting larger, and that we won't go away just because some people insult us or some prominent YouTuber downplays her.

 

[LaBeteNoire]

If I were to wager donuts, I think it's that he's now realizing the crowd behind her, which is indeed getting larger, and that we won't go away just because some people insult us or some prominent YouTuber downplays her.

Probably helps that other big indie picks are slowly getting deconfirmed with Mii Costumes. It might seem a bit cut throat to say, but every indie character that becomes a mii costume increases her chances and I think more people are understanding that.

 

[Dukefire]

So far, indie that are the hot topic on recent times has been mii costumes. Sans and Cuphead are popular with one game recent times.

 

[Planet Cool]

Wind Waker shouldn't even be an argument because of where you can warp. Wind direction is only required in the very beginning. Afterwards you have access to free roam. Soon after you can get warping. Unless you need the very specific far bottom row and far eastern column of quadrants, you can reach everywhere fairly quickly you ever need by setting the wind to NW and never touch it again.

Don't forget, Wind Waker HD (the definitive version of the game, imo) gave us the sail upgrade that can sail at full speed regardless of the wind's direction. Not that having to change directions ever bothered me all in the first place.

Remind me not to play a game designed by you, if I have to consult a guide in advance to minimize frustration with the mechanics you put in it. Nobody should make a game under the assumption that everyone will know the most optimal way of playing it from the beginning.

People really exaggerate the overuse of the ocarina in the Water Temple. The only problem in that place is that you have to pause to put on and take off the iron boots, and the 3DS remake fixed it.

Now, the Great Bay Temple... there's a singularly awful water dungeon!

Among Smash Tubers, it has also become a trend to mock and shame those who disagree with Byleth.
Apparently you're obligated to agree and be happy with everything, unconditionally. <_<

I was just talking about this on another forum. Some people are extremely delicate when it comes to "negativity." To them, anyone not liking anything in the game for any reason is an example of "toxicity."

At least in the Nintendo fandom you're expected to actually like things. Try dipping your toes in the Star Wars fandom sometime. If you don't hate everything except New Hope and Empire, you're a pariah.

 

[M00NFIRE94]

My only gripe personally with Fire Emblem is it's always the main protagonist being picked as most are about expressionless and feel like only avatars compared to the more expressive characters you meet that would've arguably been more fun. Edelgard, Dimitri, heck it would've been interesting to see what Sakurai's imagination could've whipped up if he made Sothis the fighter even. I look at Byleth and all I see are just the weapons. Not much expression there other than stabby stabs.

 

[LaBeteNoire]

My only gripe personally with Fire Emblem is it's always the main protagonist being picked as most are about expressionless and feel like only avatars compared to the more expressive characters you meet that would've arguably been more fun. Edelgard, Dimitri, heck it would've been interesting to see what Sakurai's imagination could've whipped up if he made Sothis the fighter even. I look at Byleth and all I see are just the weapons. Not much expression there other than stabby stabs.

I'm in the same boat. Personally I would love Tiki as a fighter. Give her some kind of power up mechanic like Joker where after a while she can turn into a dragon for increased damage and range. Sothis would be fine too, but I think Tiki deserves it more.

 

[Morning Raven]

My only gripe personally with Fire Emblem is it's always the main protagonist being picked as most are about expressionless and feel like only avatars compared to the more expressive characters you meet that would've arguably been more fun. Edelgard, Dimitri, heck it would've been interesting to see what Sakurai's imagination could've whipped up if he made Sothis the fighter even. I look at Byleth and all I see are just the weapons. Not much expression there other than stabby stabs.

Byleth has what FE should have been represented by originally, the different weapon classes (but sure I guess the characters are important too). It shouldn't have been just each game's protagonist. But we're stuck with them to an extent. Really, we need Marth, Ike, Robin, and Byleth. The rest can leave from the next game.

 

[LaBeteNoire]

Byleth has what FE should have been represented by originally, the different weapon classes (but sure I guess the characters are important too). It shouldn't have been just each game's protagonist. But we're stuck with them to an extent. Really, we need Marth, Ike, Robin, and Byleth. The rest can leave from the next game.

I don't know why everyone hates on Corrin, they were far more unique than most FE reps at the time. If anything I would say Corrin should be in that list over Ike since he is far closer to Marth than Corrin is

 

[DeniroSerafim]

Just posted this over in the Dixie thread, hope you guys get a kick out of this.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I get da joke, but I seriously doubt there will be any other FE additions this time unless there's remakes planned (and even then those don't bring anything unique to work with as of now). Also, it reminds me of this: https://www.deviantart.com/flintofmother3/art/Stuff-people-say-281-659112910

Anyway, I bring news!

...That really should have been noticed over a month ago, if it weren't for the Veediots-er, I mean Video Game Awards.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Also, this person is assured SSS will be out this April, for some reason.

Spoiler

There was a problem fetching the tweet

While waiting for the nebulous time of Spring to blow over, here's an art dump, I guess.

Spoiler

Art by Jose Giovanna

Art by DeadlyWithPaper

Art by reyaltyy

Didn't keep track of who did this one (Sorry Dyllybirdy )

Art by Karakato (check them out, he's really good)

 

[WingedSupernova]

My only gripe personally with Fire Emblem is it's always the main protagonist being picked as most are about expressionless and feel like only avatars compared to the more expressive characters you meet that would've arguably been more fun. Edelgard, Dimitri, heck it would've been interesting to see what Sakurai's imagination could've whipped up if he made Sothis the fighter even. I look at Byleth and all I see are just the weapons. Not much expression there other than stabby stabs.

I agree with the choice of Byleth in this scenario. If you added one of the house leaders, for instance, that would mean the other two would get shunned aside and be deemed as unimportant by association. Byleth truly is the central point of every storyline in Three Houses, and despite being an avatar they have an aura of dependability and wisdom that makes everyone else want to fight for them.

 

[zferolie]

Awesome that seven sirens is approaching the final stretch. Hopefully its not late spring so we don't need to wait too long.

In celebration, have a shantae Dancing fanart just released!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[meleebrawler]

I agree with the choice of Byleth in this scenario. If you added one of the house leaders, for instance, that would mean the other two would get shunned aside and be deemed as unimportant by association. Byleth truly is the central point of every storyline in Three Houses, and despite being an avatar they have an aura of dependability and wisdom that makes everyone else want to fight for them.

And if you add all three lords, the argument shifts to why we got three characters from one game again. Can't even claim the lack of swords would placate haters at this point when not even having the triangle plus a bow helps.

No matter how many piled on excuses for why Fire Emblem rep is bad get disproven, people will just fall back and double down on others, like ever-increasing sales requirements that don't apply to series they personally want.

Doesn't help that the arguments of wanting less bland looking heroes and decreasing the amount of fighters actually kind of contradict each other.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Man I wish people wouldn't clickbait with characters in the thumbnail if all they say in the end is: "Nah, not likely. Next!"

They know by putting popular characters in the thumbnail it will draw people in regardless of what they say about said characters in the video.

 

[Morning Raven]

I don't know why everyone hates on Corrin, they were far more unique than most FE reps at the time. If anything I would say Corrin should be in that list over Ike since he is far closer to Marth than Corrin is

I admit Corrin has a more unique moveset. Corrin is still the character that really broke everyone for FE salt for being a FE rep in DLC for a game only a few months out in Japan only. It was literally marketing purposes since sm4sh was also on the 3DS.

As for my own bias, I don't see the point of him not having shoes. Fates has a very poor story with Corrin being a bland character. And especially because people kept saying there's no way Shantae's transformations* could be programmed in, and then Corrin comes out with partial transformations in the moveset.
(hey look thread relevancy)

* transformations in the now fusion style, because everyone assumed Pkmn Trainer style and an indie wouldn't get that many models animated and 3‐4 movesets for one new character. And couldn't understand or talked down forms that lasted for a single move.

For the record, I'm salty about more than just Corrin. I'm a Zelda main who also hates the new look for ultimate because they made her a waifu, took out the archetype I loved, and gave her what should be Shantae's spunk and poses.)

 

[Teeb147]

It's nice to see this thread still rolling strong .. And the new Shantae coming, and the fighter pass opened up to who knows what kinds of characters. Things aren't bad for new speculation

 

[Inoj]

Moikaloop uploaded the YouTube version of the Shantae loop.

 

[Dukefire]

Just don't let the speculation go crazy. Also, here is a template I found of putting your 6 wanted characters for Fighters Pass Season 2.

Spoiler: Template image

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

* transformations in the now fusion style, because everyone assumed Pkmn Trainer style and an indie wouldn't get that many models animated and 3‐4 movesets for one new character. And couldn't understand or talked down forms that lasted for a single move.

Knowing Sakurai, I think he could make a transformation wheel, a la Half Genie Hero, work.
I mean it's obvious that he now has the mindset of making characters play as if they were taken directly from the games.
Looking at characters like Inkling, Megaman and Terry, that really feel like they straight up jumped out of their own games to join in.
So really, I believe Sakurai can make it work.

Just because YOU can't see it working, doesn't mean Sakurai can't see it either.
Or anyone else for that matter.
Your feelings are not absolute, they're not the same every human being.
They're your own and your own ONLY!

 

[conTAgi0n]

Actually, speaking of dancing mechanics, what if there was a way to switch between Auto-Dancing and Manual Dancing in-game? Like Auto-Dancing works similarly as it does in Half-Genie Hero, in that you can simply hold the dance button, then select an animal to transform into. Whereas when you use Manual Dancing, it works similarly to GBC Shantae's Dancing mechanic. While Auto-Dancing is used for the essential animal dances in-game, Manual Dancing is more used in puzzles and optional dances, either utility-based like healing/destroying or transforming into a secret creature (eg. a Tinkerbat), or the Auto-Dance works more like the Weapon Wheel in numerous games, where favorites are saved into the Weapon Wheel to use on-the-fly?

It could work in a diegetic way, where when a dance is used more often, Shantae can instantly tap into the magic more easily, though you could obviously move your personal favorites into the slots for easier access.

I think auto-dancing akin to what is in HGH as a toggle-able option would be the ideal solution. I can definitely see where meleebrawler is coming from on this one, but from reading this thread it seems like I'm not alone in really enjoying how dancing worked in Shantae GBC. LaBeteNoire I think you nailed it with the Ocarina of Time analogy, I don't know how that never occurred to me before.

Perhaps they could reward you for doing full inputs by giving you buffed transformations, so that you don't feel like you are wasting your time doing the inputs when you have access to an auto-dance feature. Maybe your attacks deal slightly more damage, or you have slighly improved movement speed or jump height or something. Maybe the buff could even scale with how rhythmically accurate your inputs are. Certain platforming sections might still be possible using auto dancing, but would become significantly easier when you nail the classic dance inputs.

Some sort of system like that whereby they make the classic dancing mechanic optional but rewarding, without punishing auto-dancers significantly, seems like the best of both worlds to me.

 

[Dukefire]

For shantae build on the developers of Smash Bros view (and possibly with Matt's help), I can say this:
Transformation wheel: Shulk's monado arts selection
Appearence: like zelda and possibly other characters with a anime and kawaii look. Which will make shantae waifu material.
Moves: taken from Mario, Bayonetta and Zelda to name a few.