Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[GoldLiger]

Added to the Spreadsheet the reason why Shantae HGH was rated T for "Teen".

 

[Luigifan18]

Metal Gear however came out on Konami's own MSX-system first.
It was then later ported to NES (it was a terrible port).

From then on, Metal Gear turned away from Nintendo. Only getting two more Nintendo-games.
One being Twin Snakes, a remake of the first MGS-game (which however is mostly hated by fans).
And "Metal Gear: Ghost Babel" a forgettable GBC-game.

So yeah, Snake has some history, but very little.
And it doesn't change the fact, that Nintendo consoles were never the primary focus of his franchise.

You forgot the remake of Metal Gear Solid 3 on the 3DS.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

You forgot the remake of Metal Gear Solid 3 on the 3DS.

Yep, forgot about that one.
The point still stands though.

 

[Stephano]

Doesn't change the fact that Metal Gear was primarily an MSX and then Playstation-focused franchise.

As for Cloud:
Final Fantasy 7 does not represent all of Final Fantasy.
Since every single game in the series, is a completely different game, with its own world, characters and story.
It might be a series in games, but definitely not a series in continuity (for the most part).

Well Sakurai and Hideo Kojima are really good friends.

Legally Jake very likely doesn't own the music. The rights for it are either in WF's hands or Matt's. That's how Music in games are very often handled.

They may potentially want creative input from Jake since he was the one who made it. If this is the case, it would make sense that he would be informed. BUT the snipperclips composer apparently didn't know about is music in smash so............ IDK.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

https://twitter.com/Brawlhalla/status/1044675106147045377
Poor Shovel Knight, he's NEVER going to playable in any future Smash game now.

On the flipside, Ubisoft publishes Brawlhalla nowadays, so they probably have leeway on putting Rayman in both without telling anyone that isn't a part of Nintendo.

Sadly, I suspect that most of the SK fanbase will not take this well, unlike me.

 

[Stephano]

Yep, forgot about that one.
The point still stands though.

Well, Mashpotatoe Samurai and Hideo Kojima have been good friends for literal ages, so its likely that this relationship is what caused MGS to appear on multiple nintendo consoles and not just the one on the NES

 

[meleebrawler]

I find it amusing how, even to this day, people keep coming up with arbitrary rules and barriers, on why certain characters are barred from Smash.
When, ever since Brawl, Smash Bros has been tearing these down, one after another.

"A character must be popular to be in Smash"
We got characters like Duck Hunt, WiiFit Trainer or R.O.B


What ultimately decides, whether or not a character will make it into the game, is one thing and one thing alone: Masahiro Sakurai
It's him that makes the rules. Everything else doesn't matter, unless he says so.

That one arguably hasn't been a thing even from Melee (Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch), or even the original depending on your stance towards Earthbound.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Well Sakurai and Hideo Kojima are really good friends. [...]

Exactly!

The reason Snake and Cloud were chosen, isn't because of Nintendo history or whatever "rules" people are constantly enforcing.
Snake got in, because Hideo Kojima requested it and Sakurai was fine with it.
And Cloud got in because he is a loved character. Nintendo history had nothing to do with his inclusion.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

What ultimately decides, whether or not a character will make it into the game, is one thing and one thing alone: Masahiro Sakurai
It's him that makes the rules. Everything else doesn't matter, unless he says so.

Somebody here gets it. It's why I can believe it's possible to include a Western character whose company is currently having a fire sale. The man can do anything if he sets his mind to it (and has listened to what fans ask for).

 

[Stephano]

Does anyone have any links to that missing blog post thing? I don't fully understand the whole blog post situation nor would I know where to look. All I do know is that there is something fishy about post 121. Can someone link that to me so I can put it in the Spreadsheet or if they could do it, that would be great.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Okay, I do have some rudimentary calculations for Shovel Knight's impact in Japan.
I decided to combine Europe and Asia's figures, which seems to make up close to 25% of the entire pie, if not slightly more than 25%.
So I'll estimate that Asia's pie is only around 2.5%, with an overall 90.1% of sales made in the Americas and Europe. This would add up to around 92.6%.
And we still have seven pieces, with five roughly the same size and two with smaller sizes. With this in mind, however, I'll simply round up an average, a percentage that's unlikely for the smaller of these pies to exceed, but likely for the larger sized pies to exceed.
100-92.6=7.4%, so take the 7 slices, put it into 7.4% and we would get around 1.06% rounded
Though if we converge the last two pieces into a single piece, we would get 7.4% divided by six, which would give us 1.23%
With this in mind, I can safely say that Japan's overall sales would be greater than the 1.06% mark, but not exceed 1.23%
Seeing that it's pretty close to a median, I would estimate that Japan's sales would be around 1.14% of the entirety of the US$ 2M marker goal. It may have increased a bit more ever since the figure was made on April 11th, but I'm confident that Japan is still below 2% in total sales of Shovel Knight, both in the physical realm and the digital realm.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Hello...

How are you all doing?

 

[Deleted member]

Hello...

How are you all doing?

We’re doing fine. the trademark theory I came up with just died

How are you? Doing ok?

 

[Stephano]

Hello...

How are you all doing?

We are doing good, still just compiling all the data we have found. Have you looked at the spreadsheet yet?

 

[Kirbeh]

Well, Mashpotatoe Samurai and Hideo Kojima have been good friends for literal ages, so its likely that this relationship is what caused MGS to appear on multiple nintendo consoles and not just the one on the NES

As fond as I am of mashpotato samurai, I vote we start calling him Max Tomato Samurai. You know, because Kirby.

Also hi guys. Anything new?

 

[Dyllybirdy]

We are doing good, still just compiling all the data we have found. Have you looked at the spreadsheet yet?

Yes I did.

It's nice.

 

[Stephano]

As fond as I am of mashpotato samurai, I vote we start calling him Max Tomato Samurai. You know, because Kirby.

Also hi guys. Anything new?

Just Spreadsheet stuff. The theory on the trademark died which is the most recent thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, I do have some rudimentary calculations for Shovel Knight's impact in Japan.
I decided to combine Europe and Asia's figures, which seems to make up close to 25% of the entire pie, if not slightly more than 25%.
So I'll estimate that Asia's pie is only around 2.5%, with an overall 90.1% of sales made in the Americas and Europe. This would add up to around 92.6%.
And we still have seven pieces, with five roughly the same size and two with smaller sizes. With this in mind, however, I'll simply round up an average, a percentage that's unlikely for the smaller of these pies to exceed, but likely for the larger sized pies to exceed.
100-92.6=7.4%, so take the 7 slices, put it into 7.4% and we would get around 1.06% rounded
Though if we converge the last two pieces into a single piece, we would get 7.4% divided by six, which would give us 1.23%
With this in mind, I can safely say that Japan's overall sales would be greater than the 1.06% mark, but not exceed 1.23%
Seeing that it's pretty close to a median, I would estimate that Japan's sales would be around 1.14% of the entirety of the US$ 2M marker goal. It may have increased a bit more ever since the figure was made on April 11th, but I'm confident that Japan is still below 2% in total sales of Shovel Knight, both in the physical realm and the digital realm.

So that would put SK in japan at a sales number (going off the 2 million units) between 21,200 (1.06%) and 24,600(1.23%) copies? if my math if correct?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Hello...

How are you all doing?

Doing good. Getting bored of discussing on here for long stretches of the day until October happens, so I do other stuff to pass the time quicker.

As fond as I am of mashpotato samurai, I vote we start calling him Max Tomato Samurai. You know, because Kirby.

Also hi guys. Anything new?

I approve. Not sure which one rolls off the tongue better though.

Also, Shovel Knight's in Brawlhalla now, so he probably ain't gonna be playable in Smash until the late 2020s or so.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Somebody here gets it. It's why I can believe it's possible to include a Western character whose company is currently having a fire sale. The man can do anything if he sets his mind to it (and has listened to what fans ask for).

Also, I think remember Sakurai saying that console wars are dumb.
And yet here we are, making them an argument to bar characters from entering Smash.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

So that would put SK in japan at a sales number (going off the 2 million units) between 21,200 (1.06%) and 24,600(1.23%) copies? if my math if correct?

Well, again, slightly more in the figures than what we likely know. So as of right now, he could be at or above 30k sales in Japan. That and, really, it's just me trying to make sense out of the pie charts, which didn't provide a good percentage for anything beyond the Americas and Europe. It's ultimately a spit-ball range which could either be accidentally on-point or horrendously inaccurate.

 

[MajestyIndigo]

While Shantae is creating desire, Shovel Knight is really everywhere ! No wonder why smash only made him an assist.
In french we have that expression " Ami de tout le monde, ami de personne ", which would translate into " Everyone's friend = no one's ( actual) friend ".

 

[Deleted member]

Well, again, slightly more in the figures than what we likely know. So as of right now, he could be at or above 30k sales in Japan. That and, really, it's just me trying to make sense out of the pie charts, which didn't provide a good percentage for anything beyond the Americas and Europe. It's ultimately a spit-ball range which could either be accidentally on-point or horrendously inaccurate.

Good work though, we can work with a spitball range.

 

[War Anvil]

As fond as I am of mashpotato samurai, I vote we start calling him Max Tomato Samurai. You know, because Kirby.

Also hi guys. Anything new?

Honestly, Maxim Hero Soccer Guy would fit even better. But hey, that works too.

 

[Mrs.Milky]

Thought you guys might want to watch.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Good work though, we can work with a spitball range.

Heh, thank you! Hmm, how much physical copies did Shantae sell in Japan, though? Because it'd be interesting to try to imply how much copies they've sold overseas, in general.

 

[Deleted member]

Heh, thank you! Hmm, how much physical copies did Shantae sell in Japan, though? Because it'd be interesting to try to imply how much copies they've sold overseas, in general.

Does this post say anything about it excluding physical sales?

 

[meleebrawler]

Time for me to take another stab at a possible Shantae moveset. This time with a new twist that I thought of:

We'll start with the neutral special as it's the focal point. When used, you can select a dance (monkey, elephant, spider and harpy) by inputting a direction afterwards. Instead of actually transforming into the creature then and there, however, it instead powers up moves and actions using them automatically. Her dash, for example, has her turn into a monkey. Performing the monkey dance will make it faster. With that out of the way we can move on to the rest of the moves...

Ground moves

Jab: Hair whipping. Extends into a multihit.
Ftilt: The power kick from Pirate's Curse.
Dtilt: Low hair whipping. Also extends into a multihit, uniquely for a tilt.
Utilt: The uppercut kick from the original Shantae.
Fsmash: The elephant dash. When powered up, does much more knockback, travels further and has armour.
Dsmash: An elephant stomp producing a shockwave. Powered up, makes a bigger, more damaging one.
Usmash: An overhead Storm Puff.
Dash Attack: Monkey Bullet. Powered up, increased distance and decreased endlag.

Grabs and throws

Grab: The spider form from Half-Genie Hero launches a strand of web forward to ensnare targets. Powered up, range increases.
Pummel: Pinches opponents with shears. Powered up, speed increases.
Fthrow: Chucks opponent forward. Powered up, additionally spits a venom ball at tossed opponent for constant damage.
Bthrow: Swings opponent overhead to slam behind. Powered up, slams several times on both sides.
Uthrow: Tosses opponent up. Powered up, slashes with a leg similar to the Bonelegs enemy.
Dthrow: Slams opponent in front. Powered up, additionally pounces on opponent.

Aerials

Nair: A twirl, similar to the victory animation in Pirate's Curse.
Fair: Aerial hair whip.
Bair: A backward kick.
Uair: The drill kick from the original... but aimed upwards.
Dair: Elephant stomp. Powered up, gains armour and starts up faster.
Zair: A strand of web launched from spider used to attack. Powered up, this becomes an air grab that automatically slams opponent into the ground upon a hit.

Specials

Neutral: Dance to power up certain moves.
Side: Fireball. Can be charged to a spread shot or powerful flamethrower.
Up: Harpy Flight. Fly around as a Harpy for a limited time. Powered up, lasts longer and gains access to a talon swipe with A and feather projectile with B.
Down: Pike Ball: a single pike ball orbits Shantae. Can freely use moves while active, unlike Leaf Shield, but can't be thrown.

 

[NukeA6]

Metal Gear however came out on Konami's own MSX-system first.
It was then later ported to NES (it was a terrible port).

From then on, Metal Gear turned away from Nintendo. Only getting two more Nintendo-games.
One being Twin Snakes, a remake of the first MGS-game (which however is mostly hated by fans).
And "Metal Gear: Ghost Babel" a forgettable GBC-game.

So yeah, Snake has some history, but very little.
And it doesn't change the fact, that Nintendo consoles were never the primary focus of his franchise.

You forgot Snake's Revenge and that it led Hideo Kojima into making Metal Gear 2. And Ghost Babel was still a decent game and a much better spinoff than anything the series had until Metal Gear Rising.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Does this post say anything about it excluding physical sales?

No, it's 2M sales overall worldwide, which I will presume is both on the Digital side and the Physical side. But we, as pseudoanalysts, would likely only have access to statistics that are for physical copies, since that's something we could track, unlike digital copies, which is a bit harder to track. Shovel Knight started out with digital copies only, but eventually came out with physical copies. HGH had a strong presence in both the digital and physical realm at launch, though PC did start out digital only before going physical.
Again, they may be at around 30k sales in Japan, considering time and possible interest for the game brewing up. It could also be between the 21k-26k figures.

 

[EarlTamm]

Well, I found something slightly humerus(Even though she ain't a goomba, I do not trust this lore).

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[TJKBird]

Metal Gear however came out on Konami's own MSX-system first.
It was then later ported to NES (it was a terrible port).

From then on, Metal Gear turned away from Nintendo. Only getting two more Nintendo-games.
One being Twin Snakes, a remake of the first MGS-game (which however is mostly hated by fans).
And "Metal Gear: Ghost Babel" a forgettable GBC-game.

So yeah, Snake has some history, but very little.
And it doesn't change the fact, that Nintendo consoles were never the primary focus of his franchise.



Don't put words into my mouth. I never asked for 15+ FF-Characters.


I, however, would argue that Terra Branford would make more sense as a character, if we were to really force that "Nintendo history" argument.
FF6 is almost as popular as FF7, last I've seen.
And if a character must have Nintendo history to be in Smash, then Terra would make more sense, than Cloud.
FF6 may not be as popular as FF7, but it's a very close second...

I mean come on. Final Fantasy fans are still arguing to this day, if FF7 or FF6 is better.

Remember that FF fans aren't the only ones that matter, casual gamers are also a large part of choosing who best to represent the franchise. Again pretty much anyone who has ever played video games will know who Cloud is even if they've never touched a Final Fantasy game, the same can't be said for Terra.

 

[Kirbeh]

Well, I found something slightly humerus(Even though she ain't a goomba, I do not trust this lore).

There was a problem fetching the tweet

WAIT! But isn't that a GOOMBA with a HAT. Bandana Waddle Dee can't be in because it'd be like adding a Goomba with a hat. But if Shantae is the Goomba, does this mean Shantae's chances go down or does Goomba's go up? And if Goomba was Shantae the whole time then is Peachette confirmed? And if Peachette is confirmed? Bowsette for Smash.

Spoiler

Sorry, not sorry. I think?

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

While I'm sure not everyone agrees, I think the general consensus is that Pirate's Curse is Shantae's best game. It's the best for me, as well. It's also the only one without her trademark dancing and transforming abilities. It got me thinking...Why is that? And what needs to be done to improve the series so that we can have a game as great as (or better than) Pirate's Curse with Shantae transforming into animals?

First, what makes Pirate's Curse a great game? For me, it was mostly just the feel and flow of the game. The pirate gear is a thrill to use, making simple movement on its own fun. No area overstays its welcome and the labyrinths provide good puzzle-solving.

A problem I often hear with the other games is that transforming breaks the flow of gameplay. I've never felt this as a problem myself, but I can understand it, especially when considering why I love Pirate's Curse so much. You find an obstacle, you transform, pass the obstacle, transform back. That last step - transform back - is what I feel needs to change to improve the formula.

Instead of transforming to solve one puzzle and then going back, players should want to stay transformed for a while. In order to achieve this, each transformation should have more abilities. Imagine if monkey Shantae came with an attack on par with (or even better than) human Shantae's hair whip and could attack while clinging to walls. Imagine having an entire labyrinth made to be solved as monkey Shantae: tight spaces, long jumps, wall enemies, lots of climbing. Imagine a boss that is designed to be fought as monkey Shantae. How many bosses in Shantae games are fought transformed? It hasn't really been done since the first game. At most you may transform for a part of it, but you'll always go back when you need to deal damage. This is seriously a missed opportunity.

Instead of having a dozen useless and gimmick transformations like HGH, I think it'd be great to focus on four - let's say monkey, elephant, mermaid, and harpie - flesh them out, and use them for more than just a single puzzle at a time. A water labyrinth as mermaid Shantae? A sky labyrinth as harpie Shantae?

There's untapped potential here.

 

[Stephano]

Hey Yellowlord , where on earth have you been? LOL

There has been tons of updates as far as Shantae stuff goes. If you have not noticed yet, the crew here and myself put together a spreadsheet will all the Shantae information we have gathered over the past month. We think it should be put in the original post.

 

[Yellowlord]

Hey Yellowlord , where on earth have you been? LOL

There has been tons of updates as far as Shantae stuff goes. If you have not noticed yet, the crew here and myself put together a spreadsheet will all the Shantae information we have gathered over the past month. We think it should be put in the original post.

Busy with school and just generally trying to reduce my stress levels: I’m doing better now, at least.

Sorry about that.

 

[Kirbeh]

While I'm sure not everyone agrees, I think the general consensus is that Pirate's Curse is Shantae's best game. It's the best for me, as well. It's also the only one without her trademark dancing and transforming abilities. It got me thinking...Why is that? And what needs to be done to improve the series so that we can have a game as great as (or better than) Pirate's Curse with Shantae transforming into animals?

First, what makes Pirate's Curse a great game? For me, it was mostly just the feel and flow of the game. The pirate gear is a thrill to use, making simple movement on its own fun. No area overstays its welcome and the labyrinths provide good puzzle-solving.

A problem I often hear with the other games is that transforming breaks the flow of gameplay. I've never felt this as a problem myself, but I can understand it, especially when considering why I love Pirate's Curse so much. You find an obstacle, you transform, pass the obstacle, transform back. That last step - transform back - is what I feel needs to change to improve the formula.

Instead of transforming to solve one puzzle and then going back, players should want to stay transformed for a while. In order to achieve this, each transformation should have more abilities. Imagine if monkey Shantae came with an attack on par with (or even better than) human Shantae's hair whip and could attack while clinging to walls. Imagine having an entire labyrinth made to be solved as monkey Shantae: tight spaces, long jumps, wall enemies, lots of climbing. Imagine a boss that is designed to be fought as monkey Shantae. How many bosses in Shantae games are fought transformed? It hasn't really been done since the first game. At most you may transform for a part of it, but you'll always go back when you need to deal damage. This is seriously a missed opportunity.

Instead of having a dozen useless and gimmick transformations like HGH, I think it'd be great to focus on four - let's say monkey, elephant, mermaid, and harpie - flesh them out, and use them for more than just a single puzzle at a time. A water labyrinth as mermaid Shantae? A sky labyrinth as harpie Shantae?

There's untapped potential here.

So much this. I'm one of those people who thinks the transformations break the flow a bit. I like them, but there's definitely room for improvement on how they're handled and I think giving them more utility and generally fleshing them out while focusing on a few as you said is definitely the best way to go. That said I still want to see them introduce more transformations in future titles, just give them more to work with.

 

[GoldLiger]

So much this. I'm one of those people who thinks the transformations break the flow a bit. I like them, but there's definitely room for improvement on how they're handled and I think giving them more utility and generally fleshing them out while focusing on a few as you said is definitely the best way to go. That said I still want to see them introduce more transformations in future titles, just give them more to work with.

Man is Bowsette taking over the internet lol.

Anyway yeah but I think it would be for the best to keep her transformation. Heck the Pokémon Switch mechanic works a lot faster in Ultimate than in Brawl the same can be done with Shantae.

 

[Makai Wars]

While Shantae is creating desire, Shovel Knight is really everywhere ! No wonder why smash only made him an assist.
In french we have that expression " Ami de tout le monde, ami de personne ", which would translate into " Everyone's friend = no one's ( actual) friend ".

This encapsulates the issue with Shovel Knight perfectly. You have to wonder if he'll ever be playable in Smash due to the fact that he's in so many games that his cameos mean next to nothing now and are met with apathy because it's the norm for him. Him getting in Ultimate as an Assist wasn't even that exciting, it just felt par the course for SK and that kind of sucks since his game is really good and doesn't NEED endless cameos to be relevent.

 

[Shinuto]

While Shantae is creating desire, Shovel Knight is really everywhere ! No wonder why smash only made him an assist.
In french we have that expression " Ami de tout le monde, ami de personne ", which would translate into " Everyone's friend = no one's ( actual) friend ".

Woah you're a baguette person?