Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[RetroMetalSonic]

I've seen Yoshi Peach and a Wapeach.

So why haven't any of you guys made a Shantae Peach fusion wearing the super crown yet?

Well, I might consider doing something like that once I get a new AC Adapter for my Wii U. A Shantae-themed Peach was on my mind even before the Super Crown craze.

 

[Deleted member]

not to poopoo anything, but didn't they create her mid 90s? If they were getting serious about it they would've needed to copyright it as soon as possible so I'd say late 90s. If you beat the 1st game, you could possibly find it in the credits.

Gonna put this out there to help help any confusion.

Copyright doesn't necessarily also mean Trademark they can be different.
A trademark is for a word or a name, in Shantae's case WF has the trademark for a videogame with the word "Shantae" in it. as shown by the Trademark page i found you all have been looking at.

Copyright would be the for the character its self. think things a bit more tangible.

A case that a trademark and a copyright can be used for the same thing, would be a logo that is often a stylized version of the word. (Think the Coca-Cola logo),

 

[GoldLiger]

Okay guys here is the deal. Luckily I found the credits scene for the first Shantae game:

So the trademark dates started in 1996 then renewed in 2002 when the first game came out.

So that means that they had to renew the trademark again in 2012 which puts means that they renewed her trademark 7 years to early when they should have renewed it in 2022.

So yeah that 2015 trademark renewal can be considered suspicious.

EDIT: So exactly when the Shantae "the character" was copyrighted?

 

[TJKBird]

Dude c'mon, they're the first and second links in the spreadsheet everyone worked on.

Wayforward was approached by both studios and turned down both, Shantae is also the only character who got so many requests from the Indie Pogo devs that they had to make a statement about it, so it's not as if there's a lack of demand for her to appear in other games either. There is absolutely, undoubably, LITERALLY no reason for WF to turn down free publicity like this, so it's easy to deduce they might be under an NCC and Shantae is not allowed to be playable in other crossover fighters due to being in Smash.
Individually, this is kind of flimsy and would get someone laughed out of a room if this were the only piece of evidence, but it's not.

Neither of the supplied links say that they reached out to WF, they've both basically said "It is up to Matt/WF to approach us". Now that being said, yes I don't really see why WF wouldn't want to have them included so while they haven't specifically been approached they haven't exactly taken up the offer either. And my bad if I don't feel like going through a spreadsheet of which I'm not entirely sure where it is located. I had asked earlier in this thread and nobody provided me the links so I figured no one had any.

 

[Shark X]

Also, Shovel Knight being an assist trophy is bad news for Shantae, not good news. Shovel Knight is just as much NOT a Nintendo character as Shantae is, but he's WAY more popular.

While I agree with most things you said, the quoted text is outright wrong in so many ways. One, she is WAY more popular than Shovel Knight. Yes he's overrated as hell in America, but not to much in other countries. Shantae is pretty popular in Japan. And while neither of them are Nintendo characters, she has much more history of being Nintendo exclusive than he ever did.

 

[WiredRM]

Neither of the supplied links say that they reached out to WF, they've both basically said "It is up to Matt/WF to approach us". Now that being said, yes I don't really see why WF wouldn't want to have them included so while they haven't specifically been approached they haven't exactly taken up the offer either. And my bad if I don't feel like going through a spreadsheet of which I'm not entirely sure where it is located. I had asked earlier in this thread and nobody provided me the links so I figured no one had any.

The spreadsheet is in Stephano's signature: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UAfRhl4EkZ5Zx4FRNN7QpJzdb2IMBHwXLWQP8rL9ubU/edit#gid=0

 

[Deleted member]

Okay guys here is the deal. Luckily I found the credits scene for the first Shantae game:

So the trademark dates started in 1996 then renewed in 2002 when the first game came out.

So that means that they had to renew the trademark again in 2012 which puts means that they renewed her trademark 7 years to early when they should have renewed it in 2022.

So yeah that 2015 trademark renewal can be considered suspicious.

EDIT: So exactly when the Shantae "the character" was copyrighted?

We dont know for sure if the 2002 date or just something you have to put on the app. Im not a lawyer,
But it could go one of 2 ways,
If the trademark was originally for 1996 and the 2002 date wasn't a "renew", the first renew would be 2006, then the 2nd renew would be 2016, so renewing it early in 2015 wouldn't be crazy.

And if the 2002 was a renew, It just means Matt may like to renew his trademark when a new Shantae game is being released. as the 2015 renew could coincide with HGH

 

[GoldLiger]

We dont know for sure if the 2002 date or just something you have to put on the app. Im not a lawyer,
But it could go one of 2 ways,
If the trademark was originally for 1996 and the 2002 date wasn't a "renew", the first renew would be 2006, then the 2nd renew would be 2016, so renewing it early in 2015 wouldn't be crazy.

And if the 2002 was a renew, It just means Matt may like to renew his trademark when a new Shantae game is being released. as the 2015 renew could coincide with HGH

So basically it is a dead end.

 

[Deleted member]

So basically it is a dead end.

Pretty much. I would chalk it up to standard legal gibberish.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

I find it amusing how, even to this day, people keep coming up with arbitrary rules and barriers, on why certain characters are barred from Smash.
When, ever since Brawl, Smash Bros has been tearing these down, one after another.

"A character must be popular to be in Smash"
We got characters like Duck Hunt, WiiFit Trainer or R.O.B

"Smash Bros is Nintendo only. No third parties"
We got Snake and Sonic in Brawl and even more third parties in Smash 4.

"Third Parties must at least have history with Nintendo"
If Snake doesn't shoot that one down, Cloud Strife definitely does.

"Ridley is too big"
Is finally a playable character in Ultimate.



What ultimately decides, whether or not a character will make it into the game, is one thing and one thing alone: Masahiro Sakurai
It's him that makes the rules. Everything else doesn't matter, unless he says so.

 

[KingofUSA85]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the biggest Shantae supporter for Smash, but I think there are worse options out there. That being said, I don't think this "mountain of evidence" means very much. Trademarks mean nothing because Rhythym Heaven and Golden Sun just got renewed and you don't see Chorus Kids and Isaac fans jumping for joy saying they're confirmed because being trademarked doesn't mean you're gonna be in Smash. Also, Shovel Knight being an assist trophy is bad news for Shantae, not good news. Shovel Knight is just as much NOT a Nintendo character as Shantae is, but he's WAY more popular. As for Wayforward being silent on Twitter? It might be uncharacteristic, but it doesn't prove anything. What I'm getting at is that I know what it's like to think the stars are aligning for a character you want to be in smash, but don't let it cloud your judgment to the point that "omg hair lady and monkey clinging to tree Shantae confirmed" is a thought that crosses your mind. Again, I'm not really for or against Shantae so I'm speaking with an unbiased perspective.

Your under the assumption that Sakurai focuses solely on popularity. He might have picked shantae for other reasons. Popularity is not the end all be all.

 

[TJKBird]

The spreadsheet is in Stephano's signature: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UAfRhl4EkZ5Zx4FRNN7QpJzdb2IMBHwXLWQP8rL9ubU/edit#gid=0

Thanks friend. I imagine it's already been suggested but having the spreadsheet added to the first post might not be a bad idea, it tackles all of the major arguments pretty well and having the evidence tab with links makes them more believable.

 

[Makai Wars]

So basically it is a dead end.

More or less, while the timing is absolutely suspect, it's also not very powerful of an argument either...but on the other hand it does line up K. Rool's renewal which lead into a Mii Outfit and then a fighter, we also know the roster was chosen in late 2015 and the Shantae renewal happened halfway through Decemeber....Hmmm...

 

[TheRandomCities4]

I want to make clear an edit I made to the spreadsheet regarding the Indie Pogo situation:

All I could find is what was posted on their FAQ Kickstarter page regarding "where's Shantae?!". I moved the claim that Indie Pogo was denied by WF with Shantae to plausible/theories because multiple people stated that was the case across the internet. I also added that if the proof exists, it would either be in the Lowe Brothers' twitter feed or in a backer-exclusive e-mail for backers of Indie Pogo. However, it is strange that the Indie Pogo devs have not updated their FAQ if it were true (although that FAQ was made back in September 2017, so things could certainly have changed between now and then).

 

[TJKBird]

I find it amusing how, even to this day, people keep coming up with arbitrary rules and barriers, on why certain characters are barred from Smash.
When, ever since Brawl, Smash Bros has been tearing these down, one after another.

"A character must be popular to be in Smash"
We got characters like Duck Hunt, WiiFit Trainer or R.O.B

"Smash Bros is Nintendo only. No third parties"
We got Snake and Sonic in Brawl and even more third parties in Smash 4.

"Third Parties must at least have history with Nintendo"
If Snake doesn't shoot that one down, Cloud Strife definitely does.

"Ridley is too big"
Is finally a playable character in Ultimate.



What ultimately decides, whether or not a character will make it into the game, is one thing and one thing alone: Masahiro Sakurai
It's him that makes the rules. Everything else doesn't matter, unless he says so.

To be fair, while Cloud himself doesn't have history with Nintendo Final Fantasy very much does given the first six were originally on Nintendo consoles. Cloud is just the most recognizable and since FF doesn't really have a main mascot outside of maybe Chocobo it makes sense to include him. But even if we buy this argument it certainly doesn't disqualify Shantae as she has a history with Nintendo, something that a lot of other popular indie picks don't have.

 

[GoldLiger]

I find it amusing how, even to this day, people keep coming up with arbitrary rules and barriers, on why certain characters are barred from Smash.
When, ever since Brawl, Smash Bros has been tearing these down, one after another.

"A character must be popular to be in Smash"
We got characters like Duck Hunt, WiiFit Trainer or R.O.B

"Smash Bros is Nintendo only. No third parties"
We got Snake and Sonic in Brawl and even more third parties in Smash 4.

"Third Parties must at least have history with Nintendo"
If Snake doesn't shoot that one down, Cloud Strife definitely does.

"Ridley is too big"
Is finally a playable character in Ultimate.



What ultimately decides, whether or not a character will make it into the game, is one thing and one thing alone: Masahiro Sakurai
It's him that makes the rules. Everything else doesn't matter, unless he says so.

Well technically Cloud did appear in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories and that game was on a Nintendo handheld so you can say he has SOME history with Nintendo(even though it was minor).

 

[WingedSupernova]

Anyone catch that Shovel Knight is being added to Brawlhalla?
https://twitter.com/Brawlhalla/status/1044675106147045377

The more fighting games he's playable in and the less Shantae is playable in, the more hopeful I get for Smash.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Anyone catch that Shovel Knight is being added to Brawlhalla?
https://twitter.com/Brawlhalla/status/1044675106147045377

The more fighting games he's playable in and the less Shantae is playable in, the more hopeful I get for Smash.

At this point my reaction is getting closer to, "Oh, he wasn't already in that one?"

 

[Moderately obsessed]

Gonna put this out there to help help any confusion.

Copyright doesn't necessarily also mean Trademark they can be different.
A trademark is for a word or a name, in Shantae's case WF has the trademark for a videogame with the word "Shantae" in it. as shown by the Trademark page i found you all have been looking at.

Copyright would be the for the character its self. think things a bit more tangible.

A case that a trademark and a copyright can be used for the same thing, would be a logo that is often a stylized version of the word. (Think the Coca-Cola logo),

I was referencing the Shantae character they made back in the 90s. Her hair was black and she looked similar to Jasmine in Aladdin (after Jafar imprisoned her). I get what you're saying, though. Thank you for the info!

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

To be fair, while Cloud himself doesn't have history with Nintendo Final Fantasy very much does given the first six were originally on Nintendo consoles. Cloud is just the most recognizable and since FF doesn't really have a main mascot outside of maybe Chocobo it makes sense to include him. But even if we buy this argument it certainly doesn't disqualify Shantae as she has a history with Nintendo, something that a lot of other popular indie picks don't have.

By that logic, why not use a character like Terra Branford, whose game is a close rival to FF7 and actually does have Nintendo history?

FF7 not only never had any games on a Nintendo System, at the time Cloud was made for Smash 4, FF7 pretty much represented the moment, when Square left Nintendo.

And I don't think that, even though it's a numbered series, that FF7 represents all of Final Fantasy.
FF7 represents FF7 only. Since every single game in the series, is its own game.

Well technically Cloud did appear in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories and that game was on a Nintendo handheld so you can say he has SOME history with Nintendo(even though it was minor).

Cloud's role in that game was pretty much non-existant.
And he was just a minor NPC in that game. So his appearance in that game is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[WingedSupernova]

At this point my reaction is getting closer to, "Oh, he wasn't already in that one?"

That was honestly my thought when I saw the Tweet. "Wait, which one is Brawlhalla again? Wasn't he already in that?"

 

[WiredRM]

I find it amusing how, even to this day, people keep coming up with arbitrary rules and barriers, on why certain characters are barred from Smash.
When, ever since Brawl, Smash Bros has been tearing these down, one after another.

"A character must be popular to be in Smash"
We got characters like Duck Hunt, WiiFit Trainer or R.O.B

"Smash Bros is Nintendo only. No third parties"
We got Snake and Sonic in Brawl and even more third parties in Smash 4.

"Third Parties must at least have history with Nintendo"
If Snake doesn't shoot that one down, Cloud Strife definitely does.

"Ridley is too big"
Is finally a playable character in Ultimate.



What ultimately decides, whether or not a character will make it into the game, is one thing and one thing alone: Masahiro Sakurai
It's him that makes the rules. Everything else doesn't matter, unless he says so.

Playing Devil's advocate here: Snake has been on Nintendo, including the original game getting an NES port. Cloud was only picked because he was the most well-known representative for the Final Fantasy series, which definitely has roots in Nintendo's history. I wouldn't use those as examples.

 

[Jave]

Okay guys here is the deal. Luckily I found the credits scene for the first Shantae game:

So the trademark dates started in 1996 then renewed in 2002 when the first game came out.

So that means that they had to renew the trademark again in 2012 which puts means that they renewed her trademark 7 years to early when they should have renewed it in 2022.

So yeah that 2015 trademark renewal can be considered suspicious.

EDIT: So exactly when the Shantae "the character" was copyrighted?

Shantae was copyrighted the instant she was made public. It’s hard to know what went on exactly, but despite the first game being published by Capcom, Wayforward managed to retain all rights to Shantae the character as well as the games.

Trademarks are completely optional and can be used to secure ownership of something, as they prevent others of creating something that is too similar. Likewise, you can’t trademark something that is too generic, or too similar to another trademarked property.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Playing Devil's advocate here: Snake has been on Nintendo, including the original game getting an NES port. Cloud was only picked because he was the most well-known representative for the Final Fantasy series, which definitely has roots in Nintendo's history. I wouldn't use those as examples.

Doesn't change the fact that Metal Gear was primarily an MSX and then Playstation-focused franchise.

As for Cloud:
Final Fantasy 7 does not represent all of Final Fantasy.
Since every single game in the series, is a completely different game, with its own world, characters and story.
It might be a series in games, but definitely not a series in continuity (for the most part).

 

[GoldLiger]

Shantae was copyrighted the instant she was made public. It’s hard to know what went on exactly, but despite the first game being published by Capcom, Wayforward managed to retain all rights to Shantae the character as well as the games.

Trademarks are completely optional and can be used to secure ownership of something, as they prevent others of creating something that is too similar. Likewise, you can’t trademark something thatbis too generic, or too similar to another trademarked property.

So you mean the character was copyrighted in 2002? So how long does a copyright last then. Trademarks are a decade so what about copyright?

 

[TheRandomCities4]

So if Voldi Way is the head of WayForward, would Sakurai still have to reach out to Matt/Erin Bozon regarding Shantae and not Voldi?

 

[WiredRM]

Doesn't change the fact that Metal Gear was primarily an MSX and then Playstation-focused franchise.

As for Cloud:
Final Fantasy 7 does not represent all of Final Fantasy.
Since every single game in the series, is a completely different game, with its own world, characters and story.
It might be a series in games, but definitely not a series in continuity (for the most part).

Doesn't change the fact that it was on the NES before PlayStation. Also, there's this: https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/OsUZXa_hIieANUm5MU2HCrwfZUC5sUtH

And yeah, every FF game (not counting spin-offs like FF4: the After Years) has separate characters and worlds, which is why they had to compromise and pick the character that the most people knew to be the iconic franchise representative. Or would you expect them to include 15+ FF characters in Smash? I'd personally prefer a moogle or, say, Cecil or Terra to represent FF, but the logic makes sense for what it is.

 

[Makai Wars]

So if Voldi Way is the head of WayForward, would Sakurai still have to reach out to Matt/Erin Bozon regarding Shantae and not Voldi?

Technically yes, Matt Bozon owns Shantae, not Wayforward, however they were likely both contacted considering their positions.

 

[TJKBird]

By that logic, why not use a character like Terra Branford, whose game is a close rival to FF7 and actually does have Nintendo history?

FF7 not only never had any games on a Nintendo System, at the time Cloud was made for Smash 4, FF7 pretty much represented the moment, when Square left Nintendo.

And I don't think that, even though it's a numbered series, that FF7 represents all of Final Fantasy.
FF7 represents FF7 only. Since every single game in the series, is its own game.


Cloud's role in that game was pretty much non-existant.
And he was just a minor NPC in that game. So his appearance in that game is pretty much irrelevant.

Because Cloud is immensely popular, that's why. Sure Terra is really popular as well but not on the level of Cloud, pretty much anyone who has played video games knows of Cloud while the same can't really be said for any other FF character. No character can really encapsulate all FF games because they're pretty diverse and just about always feature a new cast, the only ones that you can really pick are Chocobo and Moogles but why pick them when you can pick Cloud? Plus I'm also pretty sure there was a big push for Cloud after or around Brawl, or at least I remember it being meme'd a lot.

 

[TheRandomCities4]

Technically yes, Matt Bozon owns Shantae, not Wayforward, however they were likely both contacted considering their positions.

So then if there was some sort of company PSA regarding being silent on Smash, it would come from Voldi, right?

 

[KingofUSA85]

That was honestly my thought when I saw the Tweet. "Wait, which one is Brawlhalla again? Wasn't he already in that?"

Theres a reason why he's starting to get the nickname "Shovelware Knight"

 

[Deleted member]

So if Voldi Way is the head of WayForward, would Sakurai still have to reach out to Matt/Erin Bozon regarding Shantae and not Voldi?

Matt and Erin are the owners of the Shantae Copyright and Trademark, so legaly Voldi little to no say on anything (The games themselves might be partially owned by WF)

 

[Deleted member]

1.So....is the trademark theory dead?
2.did anything affect her chances?

 

[Deleted member]

1.So....is the trademark theory dead?
2.did anything affect her chances?

id say
1, yes
2, no

 

[Makai Wars]

So then if there was some sort of company PSA regarding being silent on Smash, it would come from Voldi, right?

Most likely, I thought Bozon was head of WF but if it's Voldi then the executive order came from him. If Shantae is in Smash, the people at Wayforward who know about it are Voldi, Bozon and most likely literally no one else.

 

[Wademan94]

Most likely, I thought Bozon was head of WF but if it's Voldi then the executive order came from him. If Shantae is in Smash, the people at Wayforward who know about it are Voldi, Bozon and most likely literally no one else.

And Jake Kaufman in order to get the rights to his music as well

 

[TheRandomCities4]

And Jake Kaufman in order to get the rights to his music as well

Only if they wanted him to make/remix music personally. If they use music from the game or remix it on their own terms, only Matt and Voldi (and possibly Shantae's VA 'cuz voices) would have to know.

 

[Deleted member]

And Jake Kaufman in order to get the rights to his music as well

Legally Jake very likely doesn't own the music. The rights for it are either in WF's hands or Matt's. That's how Music in games are very often handled.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Doesn't change the fact that it was on the NES before PlayStation.

Metal Gear however came out on Konami's own MSX-system first.
It was then later ported to NES (it was a terrible port).

From then on, Metal Gear turned away from Nintendo. Only getting two more Nintendo-games.
One being Twin Snakes, a remake of the first MGS-game (which however is mostly hated by fans).
And "Metal Gear: Ghost Babel" a forgettable GBC-game.

So yeah, Snake has some history, but very little.
And it doesn't change the fact, that Nintendo consoles were never the primary focus of his franchise.

And yeah, every FF game (not counting spin-offs like FF4: the After Years) has separate characters and worlds, which is why they had to compromise and pick the character that the most people knew to be the iconic franchise representative. Or would you expect them to include 15+ FF characters in Smash? I'd personally prefer a moogle or, say, Cecil or Terra to represent FF, but the logic makes sense for what it is.

Don't put words into my mouth. I never asked for 15+ FF-Characters.

Because Cloud is immensely popular, that's why. Sure Terra is really popular as well but not on the level of Cloud, pretty much anyone who has played video games knows of Cloud while the same can't really be said for any other FF character. No character can really encapsulate all FF games because they're pretty diverse and just about always feature a new cast, the only ones that you can really pick are Chocobo and Moogles but why pick them when you can pick Cloud? Plus I'm also pretty sure there was a big push for Cloud after or around Brawl, or at least I remember it being meme'd a lot.

I, however, would argue that Terra Branford would make more sense as a character, if we were to really force that "Nintendo history" argument.
FF6 is almost as popular as FF7, last I've seen.
And if a character must have Nintendo history to be in Smash, then Terra would make more sense, than Cloud.
FF6 may not be as popular as FF7, but it's a very close second...

I mean come on. Final Fantasy fans are still arguing to this day, if FF7 or FF6 is better.

 

[TOY the Gamer]

https://twitter.com/Brawlhalla/status/1044675106147045377
Poor Shovel Knight, he's NEVER going to playable in any future Smash game now.