Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Like I said, Schrodinger's Mii.

What does that even mean? o_O

 

[Schonberg]

What does that even mean? o_O

Possibly something along the lines of “A character is both a perfect pick for the roster AND a perfect fit for a Mii fighter until one of the two becomes true”?

 

[The Robot Dump]

I don't know guys. I cannot see a Shantae Mii working at all. I just can't. I have my own reasons to believe that it doesn't work.

On the other hand, today's the day Steve gets released for Smash.

 

[Staarih]

I feel like if Shantae gets Mii'd, it would only be a wig, maybe the pants, but the small top with cleavage for a Mii would likely be a no-no, not only would it look really, well, weird in Mii proportions, it would stir up so many unappropriate creations. Unless they somehow have the vest or something to make it less suggestive, which I feel would be an option for a playable Shantae as well if it ever comes up as an issue.

Also, I'm one of those people who doesn't have definitives, so I'm open to the possibility of her being a Mii costume. While I would obviously prefer full-on playable, a Mii costume would still be more content and a step-up from a spirit. The notion that "it would've happened by now" does not really hold water imo, it could be the very last thing for FP2 to be revealed for all we know lol. Best to keep hopes up but also an open mind.

 

[The Robot Dump]

I would rather Shantae get a Mii costume than nothing at all. That's likelier than being playable since it shows that demand for her is still there, like with Travis. Obviously, I want her playable as does everyone else in this thread, but I sure as hell won't say no to any other form of recognition. It's a hell of a lot better than a Spirit, which she already has.

Personally, I see the Fighter spot being more likely than a Mii. Shantae has such high demand. If King K. Rool, Ridley, Banjo-Kazooie and Steve can get in, so can Shantae.

 

[LaBeteNoire]

What does that even mean? o_O

It refers to the theoretical thought experiment known as Schrodinger's Cat. In it Schrodinger proposed (hypothetically of course) that you place a cat in a light proof and sound proof box along with a container of poison that would degrade at an unknown point in time. Once the box is closed there is know way of knowing if the cat is alive or dead until the box is opened. As such any equations or plans involving the cat must account for both possibilities and the cat is considered to exist in a super state of both alive and dead until the box is opened and one of the two eventualities is confirmed.

In short, they are saying that Shantae must be considered to be and not be a Mii costume until we know for sure.

 

[The Robot Dump]

Basically yeah, it's just alot of back and forth. Not too bad at the moment though.

That is good to hear.

 

[The Robot Dump]

It could mean he is under a NDA or he is not and is just avoiding all Smash questions relating to Shantae as he has nothing to say to the fans. But realistically, I think it's option 2 and he is not saying anything since she probably isn't in. I'm not 100% doubting she isn't in, but I wouldn't soley bet she is in because of Matt not answering Smash related questions. There has to be more evidence than silence to confirm someone is under a NDA.

I don't know about you, but Matt being silent seems to be a boost for our cause, since keeping his mouth shut isn't part of his character.

 

[Shinuto]

I don't know about you, but Matt being silent seems to be a boost for our cause, since keeping his mouth shut isn't part of his character.

Stillcitd be better if we could info on other devs being quiet for their characters or not quiet.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I don't know about you, but Matt being silent seems to be a boost for our cause, since keeping his mouth shut isn't part of his character.

I hope you're right. I just don't want to get too excited only to end up being disappointed. I want to keep my expectations in check.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

It refers to the theoretical thought experiment known as Schrodinger's Cat. In it Schrodinger proposed (hypothetically of course) that you place a cat in a light proof and sound proof box along with a container of poison that would degrade at an unknown point in time. Once the box is closed there is know way of knowing if the cat is alive or dead until the box is opened. As such any equations or plans involving the cat must account for both possibilities and the cat is considered to exist in a super state of both alive and dead until the box is opened and one of the two eventualities is confirmed.

In short, they are saying that Shantae must be considered to be and not be a Mii costume until we know for sure.

Huh, the more you know.
But it's true, the possibility of Shantae becoming a MII Costume is not off the table yet.

No matter how much people say Shantae won't work as a MII, that doesn't mean it can't still happen.
I think people were saying the same thing about characters like Travis or Cuphead, before they became MII Costumes.
We can't imagine it when it didn't happen. But once it happens, we can see it.

And that doesn't even account for the possibility of Shantae not appearing at all.
Which is also something that could happen.

 

[The Robot Dump]

Huh, the more you know.
But it's true, the possibility of Shantae becoming a MII Costume is not off the table yet.

No matter how much people say Shantae won't work as a MII, that doesn't mean it can't still happen.
I think people were saying the same thing about characters like Travis or Cuphead, before they became MII Costumes.
We can't imagine it when it didn't happen. But once it happens, we can see it.

And that doesn't even account for the possibility of Shantae not appearing at all.
Which is also something that could happen.

Travis and Cuphead though were in bad positions. The former being a sword user while the latter being very obvious due to his finger guns. Both of which made them eligible as Mii Costumes. Plus, Cuphead wasn't big in Japan.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Travis and Cuphead though were in bad positions. The former being a sword user while the latter being very obvious due to his finger guns. Both of which made them eligible as Mii Costumes. Plus, Cuphead wasn't big in Japan.

Of course, you can say that now after the fact.
But would you have said the same thing, before that happened?

 

[The Robot Dump]

Of course, you can say that now after the fact.
But would you have said the same thing, before that happened?

As a matter of fact, yes, I would have.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

As a matter of fact, yes, I would have.

How can you be so sure?


I can actually give you a similar example.
It's about Minecraft Steve.
Before his reveal, we thought all this time, that he wouldn't work as an actual playable character.
But that he would perfectly work as a MII Costume.

It's the reverse example of what we're talking about, but it still works.
We didn't see something working in one scenario, but seeing it working perfectly in the other.

But then comes Sakurai, doing the exact opposite.
Going with the scenario we thought didn't work and foregoing the scenario that we thought did work.
And now we say, after the fact, that Steve actually works really well as a character.
Completely abandoning our previous stance from before the reveal and denying we ever thought that way, to adapt to the newly revealed truth.
At least most people are doing it.

I was among those people who thought Steve would work as a MII Costume, but not as a fighter.
But at least I'm one of the few people willing to admit that, instead of just denying I ever took that stance and now pretending I always thought it would work, because that's what ended up being the truth.
Can you say the same with the Travis/Cuphead situation and your stance on it?
That your stance from before the reveal, is the exact same as the one after the reveal?

 

[The Robot Dump]

How can you be so sure?


I can actually give you a similar example.
It's about Minecraft Steve.
Before his reveal, we thought all this time, that he wouldn't work as an actual playable character.
But that he would perfectly work as a MII Costume.

It's the reverse example of what we're talking about, but it still works.
We didn't see something working in one scenario, but seeing it working perfectly in the other.

But then comes Sakurai, doing the exact opposite.
Going with the scenario we thought didn't work and foregoing the scenario that we thought did work.
And now we say, after the fact, that Steve actually works really well as a character.
Completely abandoning our previous stance from before the reveal and denying we ever thought that way, to adapt to the newly revealed truth.
At least most people are doing it.

I was among those people who thought Steve would work as a MII Costume, but not as a fighter.
But at least I'm one of the few people willing to admit that, instead of just denying I ever took that stance and now pretending I always thought it would work, because that's what ended up being the truth.
Can you say the same with the Travis/Cuphead situation and your stance on it?
That your stance from before the reveal, is the exact same as the one after the reveal?

During the stream, before the Mii Costumes, I realised that Suda51 saying "No comment!" could have actually pointed to him being a Mii Costume. Minutes later, I was proven to be completely correct. I couldn't say the same for Cuphead, as I never jumped aboard Smash Bros. until I started wanting Shantae this year. However, if I was on the Smash train prior, then I would have never thought Cuphead would have a chance other than being a Mii Costume, largely because he isn't popular in Japan and while he has a bigger moveset than Sans, it's still not enough.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Except with characters like King K Rool, Ridley and Dark Samus, we have perfect examples of characters that were never popular in Japan, but still made it into Smash.
It's no longer just Japan, that influences the decision making on who makes it into Smash.

Also, most people believed Suda's "No comment" hinted towards Travis being an actual fighter.
And they were completely taken aback by the MII Costume reveal.

 

[7NATOR]

I will say that I Predicted Travis being a Mii costume was the more likely outcome (though I thought Playable or just Spirit was possible as well). I also thought Cuphead would make Great Mii costume after Sans. So yeah People do be predicting

 

[The Robot Dump]

Except with characters like King K Rool, Ridley and Dark Samus, we have perfect examples of characters that were never popular in Japan, but still made it into Smash.
It's no longer just Japan, that influences the decision making on who makes it into Smash.

Well now, that's interesting to hear.

Also, most people believed Suda's "No comment" hinted towards Travis being an actual fighter.
And they were completely taken aback by the MII Costume reveal.

I don't want to sound hateful or biased or anything like that, but that was their mistake. They weren't careful with what they wished for. Plus, Travis was yet another swordie.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

I will say that I Predicted Travis being a Mii costume was the more likely outcome (though I thought Playable or just Spirit was possible as well). I also thought Cuphead would make Great Mii costume after Sans. So yeah People do be predicting

Good for them and you, I guess.

I don't want to sound hateful or biased or anything like that, but that was their mistake. They weren't careful with what they wished for. Plus, Travis was yet another swordie.

Yeah, but that's not the point.


My issue here, lies with the general deceptive and deceiving nature of a lot of people within the Smash fanbase.
People desperately want to be right and be above other people all the time. They will never admit when they were wrong.
So they will lie about their previous stances they took, when the truth turns out to be different, just so they can look smart and flaunt their ego.

And if I can be blunt for a moment, I can't tell if you're doing the same thing...

 

[Teeb147]

The best thing to do is just stay open to any possibility

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

What does that even mean? o_O

Possibly something along the lines of “A character is both a perfect pick for the roster AND a perfect fit for a Mii fighter until one of the two becomes true”?

"A specific character's Mii costume simultaneously exists and does not exist, regardless of whether an announcement occurs".

You lot have no idea how much this speculation period feels like the Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment, at times.

 

[The Robot Dump]

And if I can be blunt for a moment, I can't tell if you're doing the same thing...

No worries. I am not like those toxic people.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

The best thing to do is just stay open to any possibility

Precisely.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I can tell you that I never lie or back down about my stances. The most vindication I feel like wanting to say at times is "you were worried for nothing!".

It's just a shame that it takes a while for my reasonable assumptions to be proven right and until then I'm treated like Cassandra (especially in regards to likely outcomes that people refuse to assume will happen simply because they think nothing bad will happen to their character), but then again dealing with stubborn people in my life is nothing new, Smash or not.

The best thing to do is just stay open to any possibility

You. Hit. The. Nail. On. The. Head. Thank you.

I can't stress how few people even think that way.

Anyway, this post on the Rayman thread caught my attention:

https://smashboards.com/threads/rayman-revolution-hero-of-dreams.446447/post-24132289

Now granted WayForward simply sent their artwork to Nintendo to do whatever they felt like with it (somehow, not sure how it'd be used in a non-Smash context), but I can't help but wonder. Though I guess it probably was to help negotiate for Shantae Switch ports.

 

[Teeb147]

I change my stance if I see enough reason to do it. I can be wrong sometimes.

The weirdest I saw though was just how much flak we got for thinking Dragon Quest was going to be in smash. Most people said it wouldn't happen, and I think it was western bias saying that, and then later on after they were revealed everyone was saying well of course they'd be in smash, it's huge in japan. Definitely felt like a flip there.

But eh, humans are weird.

 

[The Robot Dump]

Sooooo, has anyone seen this yet? It's pretty interesting: https://mobile.twitter.com/msdrvous_Time/status/1313563926785863682

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Sooooo, has anyone seen this yet? It's pretty interesting: https://mobile.twitter.com/msdrvous_Time/status/1313563926785863682

Hmm, sounds like the post I just laid out doesn't sound so pointless after all.

But eh, humans are weird.

Humans are scared of change/things that are different, enough said.

 

[The Robot Dump]

Eeeeeey Shinuto , I saw your reply on the end of that post.

 

[Teeb147]

Sooooo, has anyone seen this yet? It's pretty interesting: https://mobile.twitter.com/msdrvous_Time/status/1313563926785863682

So all that just to say Nintendo considers indie companies fair game for fighters

I don't know if it really matters that much since microsoft does own the company entirely, but I guess it's a nice little nugget still.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

At any rate, Microsoft respects Mojang enough to give them full credit. It helps that Mojang was essentially built from the ground up.

 

[M00NFIRE94]

Sooooo, has anyone seen this yet? It's pretty interesting: https://mobile.twitter.com/msdrvous_Time/status/1313563926785863682

Shantae would have to be DLC for Sakurai to have more time giving characters like Steve such monstrously dedicated movesets based on years of material. Everyone debates if Shantae should focus on pirate gear or transformations, well now why not both and then some?

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Man, there's a lot of time that's sort of passed and seeing this place getting busy again, it's sorta heartwarming.

As for the Rotty thing from way back in the day, I think some of us were sort of throwing that around, because I almost certainly remember doing that myself.

As for Steve, well, let's just say that there's going to be a lot of gimp shenanigans going on. And what does this mean for Shantae as a whole? I have no idea, though if I were to speculate on the situation, one YouTuber is predicting that due to Steve filling in the niche of a Western-based character, the rest will be more Eastern-based. I don't believe that to be the best sound prediction on the basis that there's a deceiving amount of good Western characters and it'd basically serve to gatekeep all the other Western characters, but we'll see if this holds water.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

Shantae would have to be DLC for Sakurai to have more time giving characters like Steve such monstrously dedicated movesets based on years of material. Everyone debates if Shantae should focus on pirate gear or transformations, well now why not both and then some?

I agree.
But a certain someone here will have another aneurysm, when he reads that.

 

[Dukefire]

Played with Steve/Alex and here is my explaining.

Like how Sakurai presents the character, Mine and Craft IS the highlight of their moveset.

You do start with wood equipment and can be upgrade with a certain amount of material needed. However, you are back to wood weapons should you lose your stock. Fitting how you lose everything in Minecraft once ded. (Don't worry, materials are still present, so you can bounce back.)

Diamonds are the RAREST material (again, fitting how everyone is drooling to find diamonds as highest grade weapons and armor) to get and you just only need one to make diamond weapons.

How they play feels like a mix of punish, resource management and brawler in a sense. So characters that are fast, range and patient players can beat Steve/Alex if not enough breathing room can be made for crafting.

Plus, the recovery will lead to self destructs if one doesn't practice turning the other way before flying up.

Last thing, block placement off stage's range is shorter compared to the presentation recorded months ago. So, you can't place a block to save you live and/or block recovery if you are TOO FAR from the stage.

 

[MattX20]

Sooooo, has anyone seen this yet? It's pretty interesting: https://mobile.twitter.com/msdrvous_Time/status/1313563926785863682

This is interesting

 

[Schonberg]

I know this argument was already total hogwash, but just in case anyone remembers, after Min Min was released some people were trying to claim that only first party spirits were ok with being promoted to playable fighters. Yes, it’s obviously nonsense, but it’s fun to see even THAT get hard disproven - Zombie and Enderman are completely normal spirits in the game, and don’t even have Fighter Spirits despite being separately named by the Announcer like Alph and the Koopalings.
It’s just fun to watch the made up rules burn even more.

 

[SebTheGamer]

I know this argument was already total hogwash, but just in case anyone remembers, after Min Min was released some people were trying to claim that only first party spirits were ok with being promoted to playable fighters. Yes, it’s obviously nonsense, but it’s fun to see even THAT get hard disproven - Zombie and Enderman are completely normal spirits in the game, and don’t even have Fighter Spirits despite being separately named by the Announcer like Alph and the Koopalings.
It’s just fun to watch the made up rules burn even more.

Hell yeah. I’m so happy that stupid fan spirit rules are finally over so they can finally shut up about crushing our hopes and dreams just because they want their characters in instead of those characters after spirits and think they’re right with everything. Spirit rules are officially dead! Case closed! bonk

 

[Giga Man]

Everyone debates if Shantae should focus on pirate gear or transformations, well now why not both and then some?

I think she should focus fully on her genie magic. Pirate gear is cool, but I think it detracts from Shantae's uniqueness because she's borrowing material from Risky Boots. There is plenty they can pull from without going through the pirate gear.

 

[Schonberg]

I think she should focus fully on her genie magic. Pirate gear is cool, but I think it detracts from Shantae's uniqueness because she's borrowing material from Risky Boots. There is plenty they can pull from without going through the pirate gear.

I agree. While people are obviously allowed to have fun when making up movesets, the designer side of my brain always questions some of the choices I see more commonly. Is a fireball really Shantae’s most recognizable move that 90% of the movesets I see stick it as her neutral special? Is Risky’s Cannon more indicative of Shantae’s abilities than the Harpy dance for a recovery move?

I do think it’s POSSIBLE to reference the pirate gear in the moveset, but a lot of what I see people make up lacks cohesiveness. One I saw a while ago stuck a pirate gear move in the special moves, 2 aerials, the dash attack, and a tilt. Then shoved the transformation dances into the smash attacks and one special, and the assorted techniques/spells filled out the rest. It’s a jumble of moves in every category that leaves the whole affair feeling disorganized.

I’d stick the transformation dances as specials (either as aesthetic components to a special attack or actual transformed states; she’s got 4 in the original game, 4 specials, easy), put her iconic spells and equipment on smash attacks (Fireball FSmash like MegaBuster, Pike ball USmash in an arc like Ness’s Yo-yo, DSmash Storm puff blasting lighting down on either side of her), and then keep it simple by using her physical techniques as her standard attacks and aerials (hair whips are a given, go back to the moves from Shantae GBA for flip kicks, the Sash kick, elbow charge...)

Boom. Doesn’t have to be overcomplicated by pirate gear or attack categories that sample from too many styles.