Shadowloo Showdown V - August 29-31! Congrats to all winners! Comments and Shoutouts please!

[Chappos]

Perth vs rest of aus PM 5v5 crew battle hype anybody?

fixed that for ya

 

[Skeletom]

Oh man trans-Tasman crew battle so hype!!!

edit: double post

 

[S.D]

PM meta so underdeveloped it's probably not worth the effort. But if ppl want to do it and we can fit in scheduling I don't see why not.

 

[Redact]

pm also doesnt draw much of a spectacle in melbourne either, rmit showed this pretty clearly (everyone watched the melee finals but no one watched pm)

 

[Splice]

Since we will have NSW and Perth players in attendance, I figure the two more hyped P:M states may have some influence on whether it's worthwhile hosting a P:M crew battle. Nevertheless, as SD said it's dependant on scheduling and how everything else goes.

 

[S.D]

@ Redact it's coz everyone knew I would wreck.
Had more spectators for my pools matches lol.

 

[kelots]

is there any visibility on how many people have entered the tourney?

 

[Redact]

@ Redact it's coz everyone knew I would wreck.
Had more spectators for my pools matches lol.

people saw u once then stopped watching ur a joke player fraud idiot pit sucks like u

if this post made you angry you need to direct this rage into beating dekar and myself. You dropped a game to me without my controller and sick, ur going down when i have it next time.

 

[Shaya]

PM would be a lot more hype if we just banned every Brawl unique character and Zelda/Mewtwo.

"What's the point?"
Exactly. (well, DK/Ness/Roy and also sheik not being as lame)

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

They had issues with PM being slower at CEO. The changes they made to the game inherently lead to longer matches (e.g. better recoveries). This could be an issue if we're trying to get some hype crew battles

 

[Chappos]

This could be an issue if we're trying to get some hype crew battles

Some characters having strong recovery in PM won't detract from anything. I've no doubt that there will be enough skilled players participating to build hype, but if enough players have a bad attitude towards PM then that could be a problem.

 

[Shaya]

Y'know things are fun and balanced when you have an easier time edge guarding Pit in Brawl than you do in Project M.

 

[Jamwa]

Recoveries are better but nothing that can't be gimped (except Mewtwo, but mewtwo dies at 80% so who cares).

game is probably slower because its newer

also pit's recovery is trash sorry if that's sarcasm or something but project m recovery is a joke

 

[Shaya]

also pit's recovery is trash sorry if that's sarcasm or something but project m recovery is a joke

Getting his "glide" back on being hit is ********, having his best recovery move not send him into free fall is ********. I could be wrong about the former, but I'm pretty sure I recall S.D. pressing Side-B until it worked in our last set. His vertical stall/large displacement tool makes him extremely annoying beyond just edge guarding.

Having multi jumps and a safe-ish-/versatile recovery special is a big nono. Imagine if Peach had 3+ jumps? *shudder*

 

[Redact]

There's plenty of things wrong with pm right now, and I don't believe us "learning the game more" will make it better. I'm just hoping they decide to make recoveries heaps worse in future installments of p:m in favour of quick games with quick kills rather than some of the slow drawn out games we see now.

 

[S.D]

Phil PM is no inherently slow, some of my matches go for sub 2 mins. People just aren't proficient at comboing/gimping to get early kills, it's not an issue with the game itself imo.

Getting his "glide" back on being hit is ********, having his best recovery move not send him into free fall is ********. I could be wrong about the former, but I'm pretty sure I recall S.D. pressing Side-B until it worked in our last set. His vertical stall/large displacement tool makes him extremely annoying beyond just edge guarding.

Having multi jumps and a safe-ish-/versatile recovery special is a big nono. Imagine if Peach had 3+ jumps? *shudder*

Pit's recovery is admittedly way too good. You don't get your glide back on hit, but you don't go into freefall. Usually you'll still have jumps leftover and your upb. His weight makes him easy enough to kill, but gimps are tricky. However Jiggs is much the same with 5 jumps and aerial mobility. His combo/punish game is the most ridiculous thing tho, one grab/fair/dair usually leads to 80% or death without much thought.

people saw u once then stopped watching ur a joke player fraud idiot pit sucks like u

if this post made you angry you need to direct this rage into beating dekar and myself. You dropped a game to me without my controller and sick, ur going down when i have it next time.

The fact my joke fraud pit beats Aus so EZ pretty much sums up our PM metagame.

As for melee you lost to Dekar's Peach and Falcon so don't even address me until you sort that **** out.

 

[Shaya]

Pit is the Sheik of PM. Don't be happy about your wins, scrub~ (Better recovery, disjoints, lower tech threshold, multi jumps, solid grab game and a slew of combo capabilities at every percent which can lead to kills).

But yeah, Jiggs is a niche in that regard and doesn't come with a solid ground game, projectile nor [the entirety of their moveset is] disjoints. What she can do due to 5 jumps and infinite side-bs is pretty lame, but she also doesn't have an Up-B recovery either. Having vastly superior vertical options in Smash is a really unfair divide that was accentuated in Brawl heavily, and PM designers decided to keep it that way (and iono about you, but in some ways EXTEND IT). Most characters aren't designed to deal with vertical stall and all those characters do is accentuate things people hate about Smash.

 

[Redact]

some of the slow drawn out games we see now =/= all current games.

your characters are combo lords sam, so your matchups are just as good as saying marth v sheik isnt slow, so melee can never be slow (see peach/jiggs/samus)

it's just that some very prominent characters (mewtwo, ness, lucas) as well as some other higher tier characters that melbourne doesnt touch (zelda, mario, probably something else in here too) have lots of matchups between eachother that take 4+ minutes a game even between american players.

 

[Jamwa]

I'm not sure i've had a problem with pits recovery... bubble on squirtle seems to disjoint every recovery option, and Lucas' bair is Lucas' bair so hey gimps r ez for me
i'd have to play SD more to remember

and yes the p:m metagame is either "i play this melee character" or "im learning this new character and i found out this 1 gimmick omg can i be top player now"
or u win cos ur sd (imo pit is easier to vs than fox but i cant learn that MU cos wavedash OoS is like really hard u kno i gotta press R and then jump and then L and its like why cant i just roll)
lotsa development to be had (imagine if i became sd and i had gimmicks)

Lucas isn't slow at all (if u think lucas is slow then its my fault) , not sure what games ur watching but Lucas' combo game is arguably the best (I just haven't learned the character yet)

but character choice is kinda what it obviously comes down to, cos samus vs mewtwo is never going to be a fast game in any of the ssb series. not sure what there is to argue there other than projectile spam means slower games. dont see much spam anyway apart from falco.
but ye are we even using characters that slow down the game in melbourne for it to be an issue?

 

[Basty]

PM is pretty hype, we just need victoria to realise it exists
Armada might give it more hype so a crew battle of aus vs the world would give viewers if armada played

 

[Shaya]

better ledges/brawl-ish forced engine specifics slow down the game a bit anyway, even in the "melee match ups". I think the game's suitable for 3 stocks over 4, it really shouldn't try to pretend it has the same pacing as Melee's metagame (and it never will as long as characters have as many get out of jail free cards as they do).

 

[Redact]

better ledges/brawl-ish forced engine specifics slow down the game a bit anyway, even in the "melee match ups". I think the game's suitable for 3 stocks over 4, it really shouldn't try to pretend it has the same pacing as Melee's metagame.

the issue with 3 stock is matchups like the typical melee top tiers vs eachother.

marth/falco/fox and matchups between them play exactly like melee and having them as 3 stock is a bit silly, but then that would be the only reason not to go 3 stock

 

[Chappos]

3 stock PM is ridiculous, and if you think otherwise you haven't played enough of the game or are just commenting based off of specific slow matchups.

 

[Redact]

3 stock pm was first proposed by some of the top players at CEO since it ran for so long, and i'd think they would know the game better than anyone posting here

 

[Shaya]

marth/falco/fox and matchups between them play exactly like melee and having them as 3 stock is a bit silly, but then that would be the only reason not to go 3 stock

I think tech threshold being slightly lower for Fox/Falco means more consistency in results, having more stocks helps if "consistency" is an issue (which in a fast paced technical game like Melee, is a pretty big issue).
Marth definitely has an easier time recovering in PM and also has free tournament winners, it's still a bad recovery but I'd say Marth is getting back to the ledge at least once more out of every 10 attempts. Also, I'm genuinely convinced Marth's knockback angles/etc are Brawl-engine-bugged and will never feel the same as they do in Melee. Although I never ever see Marth played in Project M at all, let alone in Melee match ups (at top/high level), could just be confirmation bias.

 

[Chappos]

3 stock pm was first proposed by some of the top players at CEO since it ran for so long, and i'd think they would know the game better than anyone posting here

I didn't know that, but it doesn't stop it being a bad idea. There are plenty of slow matchups in PM so I can see where the idea stems from, but 3 stocks would make any of the faster matchups in the game end much too quickly (see Metaknight vs Falco, that'd be over in 45 seconds on 3 stock).

 

[Redact]

I think tech threshold being slightly lower for Fox/Falco results in more consistency in results, a tick which having more stocks helps if "consistency" is an issue (which in a fast paced technical game like Melee, is a pretty big issue). Marth definitely has an easier time recovering in PM and also has free tournament winners. Also, I'm genuinely convinced Marth's knockback angles/etc are Brawl-engine-bugged and will never feel the same as they do in Melee.

i agree with marths recovery being better, that up+b sits at the ledge for like 20 minutes so its super hard to get that ledge grab gimp on him now.

games stupid cbf arguing, just play more melee

if there is p:m crews at all, im just gonna go ahead and say it should be ran either when something else is also on, seeing as there just really isnt intrest in melbourne and about 80% of attendance will be from melbourne. A large portion of the project m entrants from melbourne are people who are entering just because they can rather than actually caring about p:m. I'm probably gonna stop entering pm myself too after shadowloo cause it just aint that fun lol.

melee 4 lyf

 

[Jamwa]

i dont know what to say anymore 6 month old game or w/e since 3.0 and it can't get faster?
p:m is coming out with an update anyway and i suspect a lot of recoveries are going to be nerfed
anyway im going to go with the get good solution rather than less stocks but i don't really care about 3/4 stocks cos im not good enough yet to care ey

gotta say though knockback in p:m is so bad it doesn't make sense to me. its like i use an aerial to FF and i just die because i get some magical boost that sends me off the map

 

[Redact]

i dont know what to say anymore 6 month old game or w/e since 3.0 and it can't get faster?
p:m is coming out with an update anyway and i suspect a lot of recoveries are going to be nerfed
anyway im going to go with the get good solution rather than less stocks but i don't really care about 3/4 stocks cos im not good enough yet to care ey

getting good doesn't result in faster games, there's a reason that even though americans learned the game their top8 at the biggest tourneys alone goes over time

 

[Shaya]

So are you saying that 4 stocks helps the consistency of results for match ups like Falco vs MK? Would the Falco be losing more/less if it was 3 stocks or vice versa?
A tip for you, but it's a lot easier to have a friendly discussion/debate if you acknowledge the reasons people form these opinions and aren't only swayed by the opinions of others by "titles" rather than their relevance to the discussion at hand. "You gotta be wrong because you haven't played the game enough" is pretty knob-like, then ceding because "people at CEO said so" amplifies it. Look how quickly Redact excused himself from this discussion with your recent inclusions.

Every PM tournament I've been to I've seen drag on for a very long time. It could be because we're bad or haven't played the game enough, but that shouldn't matter, we're all on the same level addressing a current issue. Status quo mindsets literally age me (I'm going to name this wrinkle in someone's honour).

Tournaments exist to measure consistency. Not endurance. If tournaments are dragging on forever and people are losing interest in it because of it, you don't give a **** about the MK and Falco mains having a 3 minute set.

 

[Jamwa]

getting good doesn't result in faster games, there's a reason that even though americans learned the game their top8 at the biggest tourneys alone goes over time

dropping combos, not knowing how to approach, failing gimps, general spacing/mindgames. if i could do these better game speeds up makes sense to me.
not sure what excuses there are about slowing down game but yeah this is how i see it

 

[Redact]

you realise that the current american meta in pm is probably 1/2 years ahead of us and the gaps only gonna increase. If they currently have slow games and run over time, what hope do we have in the next few years then?

unless someone is somehow going to make the australian meta catch up and or beat the americans for the first time ever in any game ever (not just smash) the games gonna be mad slow for ages.

If a patch comes out and changes things sure, but currently as it stands, the games gonna be slow here for a long time

 

[Chappos]

A tip for you, but it's a lot easier to have a friendly discussion/debate if you acknowledge the reasons people form these opinions and aren't only swayed by the opinions of others by "titles" rather than their relevance to the discussion at hand. "You gotta be wrong because you haven't played the game enough" is pretty knob-like, then ceding because "people at CEO said so" amplifies it.

I'll admit to presenting my opinion poorly, though you'll see while I did acknowledge what Redact said about the 'top CEO players' or whatever, I still disagreed with it.

Every PM tournament I've been to I've seen drag on for a very long time. It could be because we're bad or haven't played the game enough, but that shouldn't matter, we're all on the same level addressing a current issue. Status quo mindsets literally age me.

I've never denied that PM can take longer, my input is that it's heavily based on what matchups are played that day. I used MK vs Falco as an example because that matchup is literally just how hard can Falco combo MK vs how quickly MK can gimp Falco. If players are skilled at their characters then that will speed up gameplay, though only until another player matches them in skill - then we see a match slowing down again as players feel eachother out more. I think it's possible that in other parts of Aus the PM metagame could be slowed by more players being "equal" like this due to inexperience with their character or the other players character.

Anyway, this thread is quickly turning into Melee vs PM which isn't good for anyone, for those interested in PM State Crews, I'll make a thread about it closer to Shadowloo.

 

[Jamwa]

that's not what im saying dood. im saying if i got better my games would speed up. Lucas is not slow character and i think Lucas vs fox would be as fast as any MU. i acknowledge that the game as a whole warrants a higher amount of slower characters. thats why i asked if there was that many ppl playing slower characters for it to be a significant issue in aus (at least among the top players in a crew battle).

 

[Hobobloke]

i agree with marths recovery being better, that up+b sits at the ledge for like 20 minutes so its super hard to get that ledge grab gimp on him now.

games stupid cbf arguing, just play more melee

if there is p:m crews at all, im just gonna go ahead and say it should be ran either when something else is also on, seeing as there just really isnt intrest in melbourne and about 80% of attendance will be from melbourne. A large portion of the project m entrants from melbourne are people who are entering just because they can rather than actually caring about p:m. I'm probably gonna stop entering pm myself too after shadowloo cause it just aint that fun lol.

melee 4 lyf

Yo, someone call Attila.

 

[Noied]

As Chappos said players that are equal in any game will have a longer match due to each other reading and changing their play style and what not, where you will have better players having shorter games with lower skilled players due to the skill gap. The only things that could affect this is people who still think they are playing brawl ie Camping and people that don't know how to punish/kill their opponents. But in the end Melee and PM are both great games and each person has their opinion on which is better to play and visually watch.

 

[Splice]

Yeah judging by Jamie and SDs posts I guess we're just better than America at P:M right?
So when we improve the game will definitely speed up. That's why at CEO every game in the top 8 that was remotely close went for over 4 and a half minutes. It's always this slow in any game I watch where the winner is unclear. I've had a lot of sub 2 minute Brawl matches (3 stock) SD. You wrecking scrubs fast won't hold in the long run.

4 > 3 > 2 > 1 in terms of creating a good result and gameplay.
1 > 2 > 3 > 4 in terms of saving time and running a faster event. These are basically THE factors to consider when deciding the stock count of the game. Moving to 3 stock doesn't appear to harm the game that much. Remember, if Melee had 5 stock there'd be different results happening out there with momentum and stuff. It's different obviously, but due to the slow nature of the game P:M appears to be in a position where this seems logical, and to me, an optimal amount of stocks.

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

The length of pm top 8 was an issue at BAM

 

[Dekar289]

if possible, unlike bam, we won't be cramming everything except finals into saturday
instead having tournaments on sunday also, as well as friday night for crews
so there shouldn't be a need to lower PM's stocks solely for time management

 

[Basty]

Off topic but thinking of dropping my Fox for Falco, My fox sucks lol. Also lets not call PM slow when brawl exists!