Sexy Poses!: An In-Depth Move Analysis for Zelda - Move #18-20, 22 Up/Down B, Dash A

KuroganeHammer

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But there's no follow up to Dthrow with proper DI.....at least with Uthrow there's an opportunity to pressure with good reads and such.

:phone:
Pretty much this.

Everyone in matchup threads (or when asking for help (lol) versus Zelda) will immidiately tell you to DI that down throw properly.

Up throw has no combo potential, but really, what throw in Brawl does?

This isn't Melee. lul
 

Fuujin

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Double posting in ur threads.
That really depends upon the skill of the person your playing. Someone unfamiliar to the match-up or someone who is simply bad at adapting likely won't change there DI very much.

Dthrow is a rather slow move and once you know the DI, getting the proper one every time should be expected. The only time it might really change is in the threat of the trajectory sending them into a wall or perhaps far off stage where they'll DI closer to the stage.
Trufax.

I got D throw to sweet spotted B air the first time I played Shugo.

Pretty sure he had never played a decent Zelda though.
 

Kataefi

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Instead of attempting to get a read on your opponent you opt to go for a move that's easily DI'd with no follow up and resets the position. Instead of going to one of the few moves that actually puts Zelda in an advantageous position. *smh*

If an opponent DI's away there's no follow ups if they don't DI then you do have follow ups. If Zelda's back is to a wall then you have follow ups.
^you know i sort of agree with this too. you can still read the situation from dthrow and stuffs and punish bad DI but yeah as an example once you sweetspot someone the first time i doubt they're gonna stick around for that 21%/death punishment again. but if it's working then keep doing it as it's super painful :grin:

i just find with uthrow she can jump clooooose to her opponent from beneath that it puts them in threatening positions with better risk of death than what dthrow gives her. like if they airdodge/attack you can take advantage of that.

i think dthrow is more situational and better if you wanna position them near a ledge/wall or offstage or something. it's all in the %s and situations :chuckle:
 
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i didn't expect Upthrow to get so much discussion. im impressed.

i see Mocha trying to influence the next move choice by teasing us w/ broken Fthrow lol. >.>

next move will be up on wednesday.
 
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Uthrow is probably one of Zelda's last used throws which is more than likely a mistake. The throw sends the opponent straight up in the air so in the times when you do land a throw you're able to shift into a favorable position. So while you may not have set ups from the throw you can potentially land an uair from an uthrow. Then when there's a platform (BF middle platform) you can toss up there they land and just punish whiff techs or DJ nair them. Depends on the percentages though. So while the move doesn't lead to immediate follow ups the potential for more damage and positioning Zelda in to an advantage situation as a throw that should be used more.
 

Mocha

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YES, forward throw <3 -bounces-

Alrighty, here we have a throw similar to back throw in the sense that it's not really a set up throw, like up throw and down throw, but more like something to force your opponent off stage, and even kill if your opponent is close enough to the death zones/and or really high percents.

What sets forward throw apart from her other throws is that it's her most damaging throw and does 12 damage fresh. It is possible to follow-up from forward throw, however at higher percents, this gets harder to do because of how far she throws her opponent. For some very strange reason, I find it easy to forward throw Olimar and follow up with a buffered forward air (sweet spot too) at early/mid percents. In general, her forward throw follow-ups are more dependent on prediction of where your opponent will DI.

Possible follow-ups (not guaranteed, based on prediction):

- Forward air (buffered, early/mid possibly a little higher percent depending on character)
- Dash attack (buffered, requires prediction of opponent trying to air dodge back to the ground)
- Up smash (just like dash attack, use to punish predictable landings to the ground. You may have to do a running upsmash)
- Jab/F-smash/F-tilt (only if your opponent DI's into you though this shouldn't be happening very often)
- Din's Fire (even if your opponent air dodges, it puts them in an unfavorable position in the air for you to punish their landing)

Other uses: Zelda has a gimmick with forward throw on Rainbow Cruise...

Cause Mocha begged me to put this up (I found it and showed it to her and she's already been putting it to use)...



Enjoy.
lmao you really did go through with it. Thanks Diska <3

What happened in this gif is that Zelda's broken f-throw stage spikes on Rainbow Cruise, but you have to stand at that exact spot. I'll be posting this on our F-throw moveset discussion when it pops up. Diska and I were testing if other chars could do this too but Zelda seems to be the only one so far.
 

Alacion

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Not related to Zelda's forward throw, but apparently Bowser's backthrow does the stage spike in that spot as well?

Busy busy week again I'll post something later if I got time.
 

Mocha

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Really? Interesting! I should test that spot some more when I get home. So far we tested Zelda, Snake, Pikachu, and GaW but only Zelda passed so far. The meh thing about testing this is that the stage is always moving and you have to wait another cycle of RC (or just restart) to get to that spot again xD

I should make a list of characters who have throw gimmicks on that spot lol
 

Mocha

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Lol...

Hm, Zelda's back throw. Probably my least favorite throw. Doesn't really set up for any move to follow up, and doesn't do as much damage as her 12 damage f-throw. I only really end up using this throw if I'm trying to keep my opponents off stage. I believe it has killing potential at high percents (160 + ?) depending on the character and DI.

Her pummel does decent damage for a pummel, I just don't like how slow it seems to be. I'm usually not able to get away with more than 2 pummels before my opponent breaks out, unless they're not trying to mash out. Or if you're like Ally, don't even bother pummel cause he breaks out as if he just got burned
 

MechaWave

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Back throw is on par with Fthrow. Mainly used to get people offstage, but again it's almost an exact copy.

Pummel... er, good damage. It's slow. Nothing to really say here, you probably won't land 2 pummels until very high percents.
 

MechaWave

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No, not really. Though I haven't tested it.

Maybe to Ness and Lucas because of their awkward release animations.
 

Mocha

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A frequent 'panic attack' move that most Zeldas use (along with her other smashes), including me sometimes. I hear so many people be like 'OMG THIS MOVE IS SO GOOD' but I personally think it's overrated. Once you learn to hold your shield long enough to shield all the hits, you can punish her in her cooldown. Her upsmash's cooldown can even be punished by a sweet spot back air by another Zelda <.<

Of course, there are obvious moments where up smash is good, such as punishing landings and under the platform (which can cause a trip). It is also commonly used as a juggling tool at 0 or early percents, especially against heavy weights. Some characters like Marth can SDI the move easier than most characters can.

Yet it's really a question of how you want her upsmash to work: do you want it to juggle/stale or do you want to keep it somewhat fresh/or completely fresh for that kill when you need it? I personally prefer to keep it as fresh as I can. It's very satisfying to kill someone like MK at like 90 from a down tilt follow-up to a fresh upsmash.

However there are times where we feel overwhelmed or pressured, and we upsmash on reaction. If you stale her upsmash and can't kill at like 130 +, then I would try keeping up tilt fresh as a substitute, even though this move isn't as reliable for KO as upsmash. At least you have a potential down tilt + up tilt follow-up.

Her upsmash is also commonly used out of a down throw set up, as we discussed awhile ago, which leads into juggling, or grounded reads. I do NOT recommend using this move mindlessly against Ice Climbers. If they shield the darn thing, it's a free grab for them. Her cooldown really hurts her. Also, be careful about using up smash when trying to juggle Snake or follow up from down throw, because he can sometimes pull out a nade and upsmash will immediately blow you up, not to mention ruin your combo.
 

RaqTasmeneth

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^ Covered pretty much everything I was going to say.
Depending on the matchup it can be exceedingly difficult to keep Usmash as
an early killer. I'm not familiar with DI trajectories on this attack, I've only seen
about a 15(ish) degree deviation at best.
 

AyatoK26

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Unrelated to the topic at hand but drop-through u-air is pretty good. Kinda forgot about using it until today. It catches alot of ppl off guard, at least when I use it.

Just a random thought.
 
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updated (will be updated right after this post as i don't want to lose my train of though)

i'm going to try and have the summaries of already discussed moves up by january because i would actually like to begin rediscussion and hope we get a little more contribution. hopefully i can keep up with that commitment plan lol.....

in the mean time i was thinking we'll do two moves and change every 3 days for now. then we can begin rediscussions in january w/ the old summaries up as a reference for what was previously said and see if something new has been discovered.

does everyone like this potential idea?
 

Alacion

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I should have contributed to this more in the past.

I'll start as soon as the next attack is up since Up Smash has been touched on rather well already.

And, good idea JZ :)
 

KuroganeHammer

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Up air is a very high risk high reward move. It's faster than our forward smash and has one of the most disjointed hitboxes in the game. Great for those hard reads since it kills off the ground at about 80% on heavier characters. lol
 

Alacion

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Oh boy two skills? That's gonna be a doozy.

Up Air:

It's the strongest up air in the game knockback wise. Even when it's stale it's still deadly. It's very predictable so try not to make it obvious you're going to use it. Like using it while you fall or while you're ascending from a jump (as opposed to the peak of your jump) are good times. Another use which I employ at times is walking off the stage and up air-ing a recovering opponent - quite often they don't expect it.

Problem with this move is that it's only active for 3 frames and the hitbox is very tiny. Up air is disjointed and transcendent though which is nice.

Up Air is a good follow-up at early percentages after a Jab -> Up Throw combo. If you're good you can probably land another up air. Like many of Zelda's moves, Up Air is even more deadly in doubles. This move has insane ending lag, but it auto-cancels at the beginning of the move.

Down Smash:

Zelda's best smash attack. Very powerful, sends opponents in an unfavourable trajectory, and tied with ROB for the quickest down smash at only 4 start-up frames. It's also Zelda's only reliable smash attack since it can't be SDI'd unlike up/forward smash.

Prone to overusage, and very common followup to a down tilt or spotdodge so don't be predictable. It's also a panic attack, using Mocha's wording, but it's a pretty good one. This move is gonna be staled very easily.

As mentioned earlier, the trajectory for this move can be devastating on opponents with a poor or a very horizontal recovery such as Olimar and the Spacies. This move is very deadly on the edges of the stage.

It's one of the few moves that isn't transcendent but it's still disjointed which is awesome. Skill data says it has a 30% trip rate although I don't recall this move ever tripping anybody...
 

GodAtHand

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I think it helps if the opponent is wide-ish. The wider the opponent the easier it is to hit with both hits since I believe the second hit starts in the background and then moves forward. Also your best chance to hit is when the opponent is close to Zelda since sometimes the first hit will send them backward into the second hit.
 
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i'll be changing to the next two moves at midnight, just in case anyone else wants to say something. (holiday was yesterday)

I think it helps if the opponent is wide-ish. The wider the opponent the easier it is to hit with both hits since I believe the second hit starts in the background and then moves forward. Also your best chance to hit is when the opponent is close to Zelda since sometimes the first hit will send them backward into the second hit.
i figured that as i've usually only done it on bigger characters, but then i hit Marth w/ it lol
Off topic but does anyone find it ironic that Eldas arguably best moves (d smash and d tilt) are the only ones not augmented by magic?
Visually at least.

:phone:
thats Sakurai trolling.
 
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